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Reframing feminism ** mod warning posts 1 and 50 **

  • 17-06-2016 06:30PM
    #1
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    (This post might be a bit rambling and unfocused, so sorry if it is! It’s also meant entirely for opening dialogue on a contentious issue, and it’s not in any way saying that the ethos of this forum is wrong or should change.)

    I've been thinking a lot about feminism recently. I think that most of us here understand that feminism refers to equal rights in all areas for men and women. But the name is misleading to many. We're all familiar with the stereotype of the man-hating women who dresses misandry up as "feminism". That has irrevocably damaged the image of a feminist, IMO.

    My husband, for instance, unequivocally believes in equal rights for men and woman, and he can't fathom how anyone wouldn't. But when I asked him if he would describe himself as a "feminist", he hesitated for a long time, before saying "I wouldn't like to use that label".

    Feminism has an image problem, and I think we all unintentionally contribute to that by using terms like "mansplaining" and "whataboutery". Oftentimes, men who are genuinely well-intentioned attempt to join in on conversations about feminism and they're run off with accusations of whataboutery. (Of course, there are times that people try to derail a conversation or deny that what's being discussed is an issue, but I'm not referring to them in this thread.)

    Imagine you and your friend both dislike your jobs, for reasons that are very different. You meet for coffee and she starts complaining about her job – say, her boss is horrible. You can't relate to her specific examples, but you have loads of your own specific ones, so you say "I've never had a horrible boss, but my job is tough because...". She interrupts, saying "You don't get it at all; stop making it about you". You'd be pretty affronted, and pissed off, I'd imagine. I know I would, anyway! I think this speaks to why discussions around rights and equality are so tense and difficult online. Women want to talk about their issues, men want to talk about their issues, and neither side thinks the other understands.

    How can we encourage an empathetic, reciprocal conversation?

    To go back to my opening point, I really think one of the barriers is the word “feminism”. It implies that it’s only about women. We might know that it’s not, but not everyone knows that. What if we reframe it as “equalism”?

    One argument against such a term is that it fails to focus on the specific problems that women disproportionately experience. But “feminism” fails to focus on the specific problems that men disproportionately experience. And I think that that’s part of why men get so pissed off with discussions around feminism. We all have issues that need resolving. Sexual harassment, domestic abuse, pay gaps, suicide, mental health, physical vulnerabilities. It’s not an “Us or them” discussion; it’s an “Us and them” discussion.

    I should add here that I’m interested in hearing feedback on this from both men and women. How would you feel about calling yourself something like an “equalist” rather than a “feminist”, and having discussions where you can acknowledge and empathise with the problems experienced by the other gender, while both acknowledging that it doesn’t change the problems you experience? Where you work together to try to find solutions, rather than fighting about which issues are more important?

    My final musing is that it’s easy for trolls and misogynists to use terms like “feminazi”, but wouldn’t it sound ridiculous to use a term like “equalnazi”?

    MOD WARNING POST 50 " ...stick on topic, be civil to one another, respect that others may have differing opinions to you....ANY breaches of this will result in cards / bans."


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Comments

  • #2
    bee06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,514 ✭✭✭bee06


    I completely agree. I completely support equality between men and women but being honest I would describe myself as a feminist because there are negative connotations to the word unfortunately. It seems like to be pro women it means a feminist has to be anti-men. But I like men, I love my husband, I have a dad, brothers, male friends etc who I have great craic with and I don't like the thought of them being tarred with the "men are holding women back" brush. I hate the us versus them thing and completely agree that we should always thing us and them (or just us).

    Now I know that most feminists aren't anti men but there is definitely a vocal minority there who are leading to negative associations of the word feminist.

    In summary to that stream of consciousness, Faith I completely agree that equalism is much better ... not to mention equalism is more about equality for everyone ... men, women, green Martians etc.


  • #3
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    There are multiple types of feminism. There isn't just one. And someone then contradict the others.

    See Alison Jaggar, 'Feminist politics and human nature' for a very good introduction.


  • #4
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    There are multiple types of feminism. There isn't just one. And someone then contradict the others.

    See Alison Jaggar, 'Feminist politics and human nature' for a very good introduction.

    I think you have missed my point entirely ;).


  • #5
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Perhaps. It was rather rambling, as you stated at the outset.

    But, on balance: No. Not if you persist in the perpetuation of the term 'feminism' as monolithic, as you seem to do. A recognition of the different types of feminisms is absolutely crucial to any sensible discourse about it, and it's essential to the theoretical countering of anti-feminist thought.

    However, I reread your post and see where you're coming from.

    However, it doesn't change the fact that there is no simple one thing that can be termed 'feminism'.

    Can't link it, but google bell hooks, 'Feminism: a movement to end sexist oppression'.


  • #6
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    Perhaps. It was rather rambling, as you stated at the outset.

    But, on balance: No. Not if you persist in the perpetuation of the term 'feminism' as monolithic, as you seem to do. A recognition of the different types of feminisms is absolutely crucial to any sensible discourse about it, and it's essential to the theoretical countering of anti-feminist thought.

    However, I reread your post and see where you're coming from.

    However, it doesn't change the fact that there is no simple one thing that can be termed 'feminism'.

    Can't link it, but google bell hooks, 'Feminism: a movement to end sexist oppression'.

    I'm interested in the idea that there are different types of feminism. My understanding is that the core tenet of feminism, no matter what type, is advocating for equality for both men and women - socially, politically and economically. This core tenet is what my entire post is based on, nothing more. Are you indicating that this isn't true for all 'branches' of feminism?


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  • #7
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Interesting post.
    Faith wrote: »
    My husband, for instance, unequivocally believes in equal rights for men and woman, and he can't fathom how anyone wouldn't. But when I asked him if he would describe himself as a "feminist", he hesitated for a long time, before saying "I wouldn't like to use that label".

    I always assumed it meant equal rights and to me it was a complete no brainer too. I will admit that I was blissfully unaware that the movement had morphed into a gross parody of itself, the result of being hijacked by extreme elements. Equal rights for both I am totally for, and always will be. I guess where I hop off the bus is when I am asked to buy into things like 'patriarchy', 'rape culture', 'pay gap' and 'white male privilege' hook, line and sinker. The habit of labelling of anybody that doesn't conform to this new worldview does not endear it to the mainstream punters either. This is feedback I have gotten from both men and women.

    So I would be in your husbands camp there. But then again i was never one for labels :D
    Feminism has an image problem, and I think we all unintentionally contribute to that by using terms like "mansplaining" and "whataboutery". Oftentimes, men who are genuinely well-intentioned attempt to join in on conversations about feminism and they're run off with accusations of whataboutery. (Of course, there are times that people try to derail a conversation or deny that what's being discussed is an issue, but I'm not referring to them in this thread.)

    I do think stuff like 'mansplaining' is pretty juvenile, but on the other side stuff like 'feminazi' is just as bad. Needless to say when I hear anything like it I cringe. These are pointless buzzwords designed to shut down debate and add nothing to the discourse. This is half the problem, representatives on both sides are grown adults acting like petulant children. These are not the kind of people who engage in constructive debate, and therefore offer absolutely nothing to further either cause.
    Imagine you and your friend both dislike your jobs, for reasons that are very different. You meet for coffee and she starts complaining about her job – say, her boss is horrible. You can't relate to her specific examples, but you have loads of your own specific ones, so you say "I've never had a horrible boss, but my job is tough because...". She interrupts, saying "You don't get it at all; stop making it about you". You'd be pretty affronted, and pissed off, I'd imagine. I know I would, anyway! I think this speaks to why discussions around rights and equality are so tense and difficult online. Women want to talk about their issues, men want to talk about their issues, and neither side thinks the other understands.

    How can we encourage an empathetic, reciprocal conversation?

    A very good point. If half as much energy was used on working together to fix things, than it is to stir things up (both sides guilty here) then we would be a hell of a lot farther on than we are. What you are saying pretty much is the crux of the issue for me, we all want the same things but yet the debate has descended to the level of meaningless clickbait articles and identity politics played out over social media. It is a toxic affair now.

    The only thing that is comforting about the whole thing is that, although the crazies may appear numerous, most people in the real world don't engage in such twaddle, and the ones i have met that do are mostly young and don't know any better.
    One argument against such a term is that it fails to focus on the specific problems that women disproportionately experience. But “feminism” fails to focus on the specific problems that men disproportionately experience. And I think that that’s part of why men get so pissed off with discussions around feminism. We all have issues that need resolving. Sexual harassment, domestic abuse, pay gaps, suicide, mental health, physical vulnerabilities. It’s not an “Us or them” discussion; it’s an “Us and them” discussion.

    To be honest, I think the discussions surrounding sexual harassment are of utmost importance. Speaking for myself here, but I don't get pissed off discussing these issues, it is more how they are framed. Always the same logic.

    How do we stop sexual harassment? Men need to stop it.
    How do we stop sexism? Men need to stop it.
    How do we solve domestic abuse? Men need to stop it.
    Etc.

    My question is, stop it how exactly? Neither me or any body in my circle engages in the above activities. If they did, they would not be part of that circle any longer.

    It seems to me that a lot of these discussions just go round in circles and go nowhere.

    Take in the US, we have organisations like RAINN coming out and saying that the ideology prevalent in these discussions is doing more to harm the progress of anti-rape groups. Injecting an agenda into these matters is a recipe for disaster. None of this ideological mantra should be anywhere near the table when it comes to these matters. This ties into the point a few paragraphs above, all this pointless petty point scoring with gender wars/identity politics/whatever else yer 'avin...is the work of people trying to either make money or keep themselves relevant. To be honest, the way these issues are hijacked to further agendas is pretty depressing in itself.
    having discussions where you can acknowledge and empathise with the problems experienced by the other gender, while both acknowledging that it doesn’t change the problems you experience?

    Absolutely. As it currently stands things are pretty toxic. But I think there needs to be a more professional approach to things. Leaving these things to be solved on the battlefields of Twitter is not the way forward. More professionals involved and leave the vested interests at the door.
    Where you work together to try to find solutions, rather than fighting about which issues are more important?

    Again, I full agree. We are all in this together, merely biological entities spinning on a rock in the bog arse of the galaxy with zero clue why or how. The least we can all do is try make stuff a hell of a lot easier for ourselves and those that come after.


  • #8
    DM addict
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 567 ✭✭✭DM addict


    Faith wrote: »
    Imagine you and your friend both dislike your jobs, for reasons that are very different. You meet for coffee and she starts complaining about her job – say, her boss is horrible. You can't relate to her specific examples, but you have loads of your own specific ones, so you say "I've never had a horrible boss, but my job is tough because...". She interrupts, saying "You don't get it at all; stop making it about you". You'd be pretty affronted, and pissed off, I'd imagine. I know I would, anyway! I think this speaks to why discussions around rights and equality are so tense and difficult online. Women want to talk about their issues, men want to talk about their issues, and neither side thinks the other understands.

    How can we encourage an empathetic, reciprocal conversation?

    I am so tempted to try and run with this and draw out workplace problems into a metaphor for the patriarchy, but I'm worried I'll lose the run of myself. :)

    These comparisons never work without more context. I'll try to keep it brief. Let's say I was telling a friend about how my hideous troll of a boss always made me work through my lunch breaks, stay late everyday, work most weekends, and never permitted overtime pay. I'd say I've tried talking to HR about it, but that they're totally on my boss's side and I'm worried about getting a reputation as a whiner. My friend's response was that they also had to stay late every night last week and didn't get overtime pay, but their boss ordered them pizza and let them take time off in lieu, so they TOTALLY get how I feel, and I should just talk to my boss because they can help me out.

    I would feel like my friend wasn't listening, was ignoring the difference between my big problem and their small problem, not realising that them getting pizza and time off in lieu gives them a better outcome than me, and not understanding that I can't use my boss as a positive resource the same way they can. I'd be a little pissed off.

    But, let's say they said that they actually had another job problem, where it looked like they were going to get moved to a different department and have to commute an extra 30mins a day each way. Their boss was fighting for them, but the head office was still against them and it didn't look good. We could commiserate about how ****ty things are for workers, or we might disagree who's is worst, or I might say that "well at least you'll still make it home while your kids are awake".

    Both these people have work problems. They're different problems, but they're both caused by a culture that doesn't value the individual worker. Perhaps I might argue with my friend about which of us has it worse, perhaps I'll be mad that they're making it about them and not listening to how **** things are for me. Or perhaps I'll try and suggest that we could try joining a union to see if there's a way they can help us negotiate better deals for ourselves.

    Substitute work problems for gender-based problems, the negative work culture for the patriarchy, and joining a union for femininsm and..... nope, I think I lost the run of myself.

    Bugger.


    Men and women face different gender based problems. It does mean that it can be hard for one side to see the other side. I think that the historic silencing of women's voices means that a lot of women just want to be heard on certain issues.

    It's an undeniable truth that patriarchy hurts men too. It just hurts women more.

    Faith wrote: »
    To go back to my opening point, I really think one of the barriers is the word “feminism”. It implies that it’s only about women. We might know that it’s not, but not everyone knows that. What if we reframe it as “equalism”?

    One argument against such a term is that it fails to focus on the specific problems that women disproportionately experience. But “feminism” fails to focus on the specific problems that men disproportionately experience. And I think that that’s part of why men get so pissed off with discussions around feminism. We all have issues that need resolving. Sexual harassment, domestic abuse, pay gaps, suicide, mental health, physical vulnerabilities. It’s not an “Us or them” discussion; it’s an “Us and them” discussion.

    I should add here that I’m interested in hearing feedback on this from both men and women. How would you feel about calling yourself something like an “equalist” rather than a “feminist”, and having discussions where you can acknowledge and empathise with the problems experienced by the other gender, while both acknowledging that it doesn’t change the problems you experience? Where you work together to try to find solutions, rather than fighting about which issues are more important?

    My final musing is that it’s easy for trolls and misogynists to use terms like “feminazi”, but wouldn’t it sound ridiculous to use a term like “equalnazi”?

    As I said above, the patriarchy hurts men too. Feminism isn't fighting against men, it's fighting against the patriarchy. I don't feel like I need a new term because the term I have covers what I mean it to mean - fighting against systemic gender based inequalities, whether they affect men or women.

    Also, my feminism is intersectional - I like to look at how gender intersects with race, sexuality, gender expression, culture, class, etc. So my discussion is already 'us and them and everyone else'. I think that very few real life feminists are actually us vs. them.

    I do think it's important to point out that yes, we all have issues, but when it comes to gender based inequalities, OVERALL men come out better than women. That is why discussions often focus on women's rights, because they are more likely to be oppressed/having those rights infringed upon.


  • #9
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I still consider myself a feminist and have no qualms saying so. I'm not advocating for any of the crazy stuff some women are and I think I can distance myself from that but still be feminist. There are still things we need to do, abortion on demand, more equality for migrant and traveller women as well as women in less fortunate parts of the world.


  • #10
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Faith wrote:
    I'm interested in the idea that there are different types of feminism. My understanding is that the core tenet of feminism, no matter what type, is advocating for equality for both men and women - socially, politically and economically. This core tenet is what my entire post is based on, nothing more. Are you indicating that this isn't true for all 'branches' of feminism?

    No, I agree with you that that is the core of feminism.

    But there are those who would call Hilary Clinton a feminist simply because she's a woman aiming for power. I would argue that she could only be called a feminist in the most restrictive interpretation of the concept.

    I reckon I misinterpreted your OP. However, it's good to get the opportunity to throw out some theoretical links! So thanks!


  • #11
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    Some really interesting points coming out of this already! :)
    DM addict wrote: »
    Men and women face different gender based problems. It does mean that it can be hard for one side to see the other side. I think that the historic silencing of women's voices means that a lot of women just want to be heard on certain issues.

    I would agree. We've suddenly got a voice, particularly with the dawn of the internet.
    DM addict wrote: »
    I do think it's important to point out that yes, we all have issues, but when it comes to gender based inequalities, OVERALL men come out better than women. That is why discussions often focus on women's rights, because they are more likely to be oppressed/having those rights infringed upon.

    I will have to disagree with you there, assuming we're both focusing on the western world. I don't think it's useful to think of it as "Who's worse off". The issues aren't comparable, IMO. When you look at the bigger picture, I think it is quite balanced in terms of risk.
    mzungu wrote: »
    This is half the problem, representatives on both sides are grown adults acting like petulant children. These are not the kind of people who engage in constructive debate, and therefore offer absolutely nothing to further either cause.
    ...
    The only thing that is comforting about the whole thing is that, although the crazies may appear numerous, most people in the real world don't engage in such twaddle, and the ones i have met that do are mostly young and don't know any better.

    I very much agree. It's an emotive issue, of course, but internet discussions tend to bear no resemblance to real-life discussions.
    mzungu wrote: »
    How do we stop sexual harassment? Men need to stop it.
    How do we stop sexism? Men need to stop it.
    How do we solve domestic abuse? Men need to stop it.
    Etc.

    My question is, stop it how exactly? Neither me or any body in my circle engages in the above activities. If they did, they would not be part of that circle any longer.

    It seems to me that a lot of these discussions just go round in circles and go nowhere.

    I wonder if we could move towards a model when men themselves are invited to design an approach that they would agree with for educating others? The vast majority of men are wonderful, upstanding chaps who would never behave inappropriately toward women. We can't weed out the 'bad' ones from a line-up, so how would we target them?

    Rather than patronising "Consent classes" that may imply that all men are potential rapists, how could we, as a whole, approach the issue in a sensitive yet straight-forward manner? I don't have an answer to that, unfortunately, but I suspect the way forward is through encouraging open discussion and education, from an early age.


    @ Grolschevik - I agree totally with your point re: Hillary Clinton, and I absolutely understand where you're coming from. I don't think I have ever debated feminism before, and misunderstanding or not, it's good for me to be challenged :). So thanks for making me think a little harder about the point I was trying to make!


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  • #12
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Faith wrote: »
    I very much agree. It's an emotive issue, of course, but internet discussions tend to bear no resemblance to real-life discussions.

    Absolutely. While the Internet can be great for a lot of things, I think when it comes to serious topics the traditional face to face is the best way to go. That being said, the whole online thing is still an infant pretty much. Maybe as the decades pass it will be a suitable medium in which to have serious topics be discussed. Unfortunately, 2016 is not that time!
    I wonder if we could move towards a model when men themselves are invited to design an approach that they would agree with for educating others? The vast majority of men are wonderful, upstanding chaps who would never behave inappropriately toward women. We can't weed out the 'bad' ones from a line-up, so how would we target them?

    That's the question right there. I guess a hell of a lot of things need to change. A few offhand thoughts. First of all, serious crime should equal serious time. The minimum jail time needs to be increased a hell of a lot for a start. Currently, as things stand it's all over the place and far too lenient. Get a proper deterrent in place, and that is a solid building block. But the rest, that is the tricky part.

    Regarding the content for approach to prevention, I reckon this is where professionals should come in. I have zero answers there unfortunately.

    Although I would say you are close to the mark with this:
    I suspect the way forward is through encouraging open discussion and education, from an early age.
    That would be pretty much my thoughts on it. More parental input also.


  • #13
    Shelga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,054 ✭✭✭Shelga


    Faith, I agree with you. I do think the word feminism can negative connotations. Lengthy explanations of why feminism is a good word are all well and good, but in my experience people can react in a less-than-positive way to it, while still clearly being for women's rights.

    A word means what people think it means.

    If someone asks am I a feminist, I would reply that I'm an egalitarian.


  • #14
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Feminism has always had a bad image. The women fighting for the right to vote, contraception, financial autonomy etc were abused and dismissed as nutters. Turkeys will never vote for Christmas. Anyone who feels threatened by feminism will always try and paint it in a negative light.


  • #15
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Evil twin I completely agree.

    I was having this conversation with my brother the other day, and I was telling him about an arty festival I was at, where there was a meeting for a group of feminists, and we had a lovely chat.

    He instantly said , ,' all feminists are crazy. did you see this extreme woman in the us who did something' ,I forget what it was.

    And I said ' no most feminists just work to promote women's right's.'

    But as I was listening to him I realised I had heard his stance from men before, and I realised what it was down to,: fear.

    If you are afraid of something - what do you do : don't let them have a valid point. You call them all crazy nutjobs.

    This bad idea about feminism has come from men. Don't let it work.


  • #16
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Evil twin I completely agree.

    I was having this conversation with my brother the other day, and I was telling him about an arty festival I was at, where there was a meeting for a group of feminists, and we had a lovely chat.

    He instantly said , ,' all feminists are crazy. did you see this extreme woman in the us who did something' ,I forget what it was.

    And I said ' no most feminists just work to promote women's right's.'

    But as I was listening to him I realised I had heard his stance from men before, and I realised what it was down to,: fear.

    If you are afraid of something - what do you do : don't let them have a valid point. You call them all crazy nutjobs.

    This bad idea about feminism has come from men. Don't let it work.

    It saddens me that so many young women buy into that and turn away from feminism or that they feel they have to apologise for it. I, of course, support equal rights for all but I'm a woman so I'm naturally more tuned into issues that might affect me and that's just how it is. Some people choose to speak out for animals, some people choose to speak out for the elderly. This is what I choose to speak out on and if people don't like that - tough, that is there problem, not mine. Its okay to have a cause you champion.

    I think maybe younger women in particular feel they don't feminism. I look at my daughter whose 19 and has the world at her feet, she has never had to fight for an education or to work in a male dominated field. She has female role models in all sorts of traditionally male dominated spheres. She has the law to defend her, she has interest groups, she has programs to help her. I sometimes hear her go on about how lucky women are and say "do you think we were just gifted that stuff?" We had to fight and fight hard for it.

    There are still things in this country we need to sort out. There are still small pockets of women in this country living a 1950's type life with no voice. Until we make the country a better place for them as well as the less fortunate women in other parts of the world feminism still has a role to play.


  • #17
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Anyone who feels threatened by feminism will always try and paint it in a negative light.

    Sure, and can't that also be explained by lack of understanding about what the word means? Many people may fear the word, believing it's a synonym for misandry, or that it represents the belief that women are superior to men, rather than equal.

    I'll happily hold my hand up and say I'm with Shelga here: if someone asked me if I am a feminist, I would hesitate to agree with the use of that word because of the negative connotations.

    My thought experiment is simply, what if we rename it? What if we change nothing except the title? Would that have any negative effects? And what kind of positive effects would it have?

    Declaring yourself as "not a feminist" is fine, even well-received in certain circles - oftentimes because of the misunderstandings around what feminism is. Declaring yourself as "not an equalist" wouldn't be quite so fine, I'd guess. You'll still have the misogynists and the horrible people of the world refusing to acknowledge women as equals, but a greater proportion of the [currently silent] majority may be more comfortable with openly declaring themselves as "equalists". That, in my estimation, would move the whole feminism cause further much faster than it's moving right now.

    It would be far from the first time we renamed something to change its image. One example that comes to mind is the move from the term "mental retardation" to "intellectual disability". "Retard" became a derogatory word, so we stopped using it and we reframed cognitive limitations as "intellectual disability". THat's the thought process I'm following when I suggest moving from the term "feminism" and using a new name that better reflects the description of the movement.


  • #18
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    The movement hasn't changed though, it's just been hijacked by idiots. Instead of saying 'I'm not a feminist' we should be telling them that they are not feminist because they are not. It's not feminist to see yourself as a victim. Feminism is about empowerment.


  • #19
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Maybe it's an age thing. I'm old enough to remember when feminism really meant something, when the women in the movement were strong. All I hear now is stuff about safe spaces, triggers and how some women are offended by everything.


  • #20
    FortySeven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭FortySeven


    Faith wrote: »
    (This post might be a bit rambling and unfocused, so sorry if it is! It’s also meant entirely for opening dialogue on a contentious issue, and it’s not in any way saying that the ethos of this forum is wrong or should change.)

    I've been thinking a lot about feminism recently. I think that most of us here understand that feminism refers to equal rights in all areas for men and women. But the name is misleading to many. We're all familiar with the stereotype of the man-hating women who dresses misandry up as "feminism". That has irrevocably damaged the image of a feminist, IMO.

    My husband, for instance, unequivocally believes in equal rights for men and woman, and he can't fathom how anyone wouldn't. But when I asked him if he would describe himself as a "feminist", he hesitated for a long time, before saying "I wouldn't like to use that label".

    Feminism has an image problem, and I think we all unintentionally contribute to that by using terms like "mansplaining" and "whataboutery". Oftentimes, men who are genuinely well-intentioned attempt to join in on conversations about feminism and they're run off with accusations of whataboutery. (Of course, there are times that people try to derail a conversation or deny that what's being discussed is an issue, but I'm not referring to them in this thread.)

    Imagine you and your friend both dislike your jobs, for reasons that are very different. You meet for coffee and she starts complaining about her job – say, her boss is horrible. You can't relate to her specific examples, but you have loads of your own specific ones, so you say "I've never had a horrible boss, but my job is tough because...". She interrupts, saying "You don't get it at all; stop making it about you". You'd be pretty affronted, and pissed off, I'd imagine. I know I would, anyway! I think this speaks to why discussions around rights and equality are so tense and difficult online. Women want to talk about their issues, men want to talk about their issues, and neither side thinks the other understands.

    How can we encourage an empathetic, reciprocal conversation?

    To go back to my opening point, I really think one of the barriers is the word “feminism”. It implies that it’s only about women. We might know that it’s not, but not everyone knows that. What if we reframe it as “equalism”?

    One argument against such a term is that it fails to focus on the specific problems that women disproportionately experience. But “feminism” fails to focus on the specific problems that men disproportionately experience. And I think that that’s part of why men get so pissed off with discussions around feminism. We all have issues that need resolving. Sexual harassment, domestic abuse, pay gaps, suicide, mental health, physical vulnerabilities. It’s not an “Us or them” discussion; it’s an “Us and them” discussion.

    I should add here that I’m interested in hearing feedback on this from both men and women. How would you feel about calling yourself something like an “equalist” rather than a “feminist”, and having discussions where you can acknowledge and empathise with the problems experienced by the other gender, while both acknowledging that it doesn’t change the problems you experience? Where you work together to try to find solutions, rather than fighting about which issues are more important?

    My final musing is that it’s easy for trolls and misogynists to use terms like “feminazi”, but wouldn’t it sound ridiculous to use a term like “equalnazi”?

    How very odd. I was planning to start a thread on this very subject. A new movement. Based solely on equality. It does away with all the isms and just focuses on everyone being equal. The current fragmented and often confrontational special interest groups are ALL losing credibility.

    Cooperation is always more likely to succeed but there would be some hard compromises to be made.


  • #21
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    eviltwin wrote: »
    The movement hasn't changed though, it's just been hijacked ... Feminism is about empowerment.

    I absolutely agree with you. How would you suggest that it gets back on message?


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  • #22
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Faith wrote: »
    I absolutely agree with you. How would you suggest that it gets back on message?

    No idea, I'm not even sure it can tbh. It doesn't help that we have a public and media that love to give oxygen to random women with insane ideas and then plant the seed that all feminists think that way. We need to get back to the issues and ignore the personalities.

    This week the Women's Aid annual report was released, hardly a mention on social media but everyone is talking about a building in UCC being named after a man who made a few inappropriate comments. Stuff like that is part of the problem but when you have a generation so blessed that's what happens. Every one needs something to complain about I guess. I would like to see more younger women engaging with the movement. I'm involved in a few pro choice groups and very few of the members are under the age of 30, that frustrates me so much.

    I don't know, I'm very sad to see its become a dirty word. I wish younger women would grow a pair and be vocal about things that bother them but in a positive way rather than always acting like a victim.


  • #23
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    I don't think the movement has been hijacked. I think the backlash has made us think that some of the things we ask for are unreasonable in the same way that today, Ronald Regan would be considered a socialist or 'New Labour' in the UK shifted so far, our understanding of where the centre was also shifted.

    Yes, there are people who say silly things but there are a lot of sensible people fighting for sensible things like equal pay, reproductive rights, affordable childcare, better public representation, better treatment of sexual abuse victims etc.

    But the backlash, at least online (where it is largely male dominated), is shocking. For example, there's a huge focus on men who are wrongly accused of rape. That's a terrible thing but the focus on the failure to take rape seriously etc, that hardly registers. Unequal pay being "explained away", etc etc. There's also a stupid amount of 'whataboutery', comparing developed country feminists' concerns with FGM etc in developing countries.

    I get sad and angry when I hear women saying they don't consider themselves feminists. It shows they see feminism through the eyes of the backlash rather than what it truly is.


  • #24
    FortySeven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭FortySeven


    Most men's rights groups would be based around fathers rights. A subject I note has not been mentioned. The breakup of families and the lack of rights for fathers sows the seeds of feudalism when it comes to feminism.

    There are not many voices calling for lower wages for women, advocating rape or taking away rights of women. The abortion issue is more an issue of religion than a gender problem.

    I would describe myself as wanting equality but I despise what feminism has become. There is a considerable amount of having cake and eating it too and it has now got to a point that men are having to fight back to protect their own interests.

    I think a new collaborative movement based around common principles perhaps those enshrined in the UN charter on human rights and also children's rights would be a roaring success and would marginalize those few loud mouthed idiots on all sides. Presenting a united front.

    Fathers rights would be a big issue on the men's side though. Women really have to give quite a lot there imo.


  • #25
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I don't know, I'm very sad to see its become a dirty word. I wish younger women would grow a pair and be vocal about things that bother them but in a positive way rather than always acting like a victim.

    I think that is a bit unfair to younger women. Social media changed things a lot. Now whoever shouts the loudest becomes a spokesperson for the movement. Usually it's the most radical parts and they suck all the oxygen out of debate. Maybe #notallmen and expressions like rape culture have valid space in debate but for me they are off putting. And I think they would be even more off putting for younger generation who basically get all news feed on twitter or facebook. There is no editing on social media and there is no restraint. The Stamford rape case is prime example, the was some valid discussion but there were also death threats to the judge and similar nonsense. It's wrong to think that only Trump attract social media thuggery. All movements do. The only difference is that possibly Trump has the type of audience that is prepared to ignore it while it damages other causes.

    I can understand Faith's reasoning behind the 'name change' I am not sure it will solve anything. Social media is great because everyone has a voice but it is time also for the debate how to edit those voices to actually represent what people stand for. And that is much easier said than done. All in all I don't think younger people ate staying away because their lives are so cushy they are staying away because extremes with their constant bombardment make it seem like they are mainstream.


  • #26
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    FortySeven wrote: »
    Most men's rights groups would be based around fathers rights. A subject I note has not been mentioned. The breakup of families and the lack of rights for fathers sows the seeds of feudalism when it comes to feminism.
    Because it's not a discussion of men's rights. Family law is the only area of law in which there is positive discrimination towards women but it's based on a sexist logic that looking after children etc is wimmin's work.
    FortySeven wrote: »
    There are not many voices calling for lower wages for women, advocating rape or taking away rights of women. The abortion issue is more an issue of religion than a gender problem.
    Of course not. Just voices claiming the wage gap is because of womens' conscious choices, saying nothing about the dismal conviction rate of rapists or shocking treatment of rape victims in our justice system or saying nothing about other discriminiations that women face. Abortion is damn well a women's issue when it's only women who are forced to bring an unwanted pregnancy to term based on belief in a white male sky fairy. I have more right to bodily integrity when I'm dead than when I'm a live, pregnant woman in Ireland.
    FortySeven wrote: »
    I would describe myself as wanting equality but I despise what feminism has become. There is a considerable amount of having cake and eating it too and it has now got to a point that men are having to fight back to protect their own interests.
    This is the logic I have a problem with. Women's and men's rights are not a pendulum where it can swing too far in one direction and then the other group suffers. Both men and women suffer when women suffer discrimination. All this stuff about 'fighting back' is so, so misguided.
    FortySeven wrote: »
    I think a new collaborative movement based around common principles perhaps those enshrined in the UN charter on human rights and also children's rights would be a roaring success and would marginalize those few loud mouthed idiots on all sides. Presenting a united front.
    I can't tell you how many times I've heard this. Let's not fight for women's rights, let's fight for human's rights! No, sorry. Many women still suffer serious discrimination because they are women. Any general approach to human rights that doesn't recognise gender-based discrimination is destined to fail.
    FortySeven wrote: »
    Fathers rights would be a big issue on the men's side though. Women really have to give quite a lot there imo.
    Yeah, you see I don't understand the women who feel like they're giving up something here. Looking after children is bloody hard work. Men should get paternity leave, men should get longer term parental leave to see their children more often than just the weekend and the better parent should get custody in the event of separation. But of course men's rights groups focus on this issue because it's one of the only areas of life where women are positively discriminated. If you're a woman, well it's pretty much everything else.


  • #27
    FortySeven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭FortySeven


    I'm for women's equality. I disagree that abortion is a gender issue. I am pro choice , I'm a white man that doesn't live in the sky. I'm an atheist and your fight is not with me on abortion. I'm on your side!

    To me, feminism has run its course. It's all too easy to just have an ideal and fight for it without realizing that the other side gave in years ago and actually supports what you want. Equality.

    You see, you support all the things I want as a father. I support all the things you want. Surely we are better off working together to change society for the benefit of all.

    Divide and conquer isn't working, it's just creating more and more whacky off shoots like mgtow and the whole tumblr debacle.


  • #28
    FortySeven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭FortySeven


    Also.

    Sentencing for crimes would be largely discriminatory to men. Women receive much more lenient sentences for crime.

    This may well be due to male influence believing women should be protected somehow. (Patriarchy) but this is where the having cake and eating it comes in. I don't see feminists looking to change this institution.

    These reasons and many others are the reason that the movement is largely discredited. It's equality when it's in women's favour but silence when it comes to anything that might cost.

    I'm not having a go here. Nor trying to stifle debate, just attempting to highlight some of the issues men have with feminism.

    I wildly support collaboration on equality but the first time I attempt to point out some of the opposing viewpoints I feel like I am being shouted down.

    If you just want to shroud the same old feminism in a new cloak to attempt to rebrand then it will fail. If you truly want collaboration for equality then there are some hard compromises to be made. This is all I am attempting to point out.


  • #29
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    FortySeven wrote: »
    I'm for women's equality. I disagree that abortion is a gender issue. I am pro choice , I'm a white man that doesn't live in the sky. I'm an atheist and your fight is not with me on abortion. I'm on your side!

    To me, feminism has run its course. It's all too easy to just have an ideal and fight for it without realizing that the other side gave in years ago and actually supports what you want. Equality.

    You see, you support all the things I want as a father. I support all the things you want. Surely we are better off working together to change society for the benefit of all.

    Divide and conquer isn't working, it's just creating more and more whacky off shoots like mgtow and the whole tumblr debacle.

    Only a woman can get pregnant and has to undergo an abortion so that makes it very much a women's issue. Men are affected too but it's not the same.

    Ask a migrant woman living here or a traveller if she thinks feminism isn't needed. They need it more than anyone.


  • #30
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    FortySeven wrote: »
    I'm for women's equality. I disagree that abortion is a gender issue. I am pro choice , I'm a white man that doesn't live in the sky. I'm an atheist and your fight is not with me on abortion. I'm on your side!

    To me, feminism has run its course. It's all too easy to just have an ideal and fight for it without realizing that the other side gave in years ago and actually supports what you want. Equality.

    You see, you support all the things I want as a father. I support all the things you want. Surely we are better off working together to change society for the benefit of all.

    Divide and conquer isn't working, it's just creating more and more whacky off shoots like mgtow and the whole tumblr debacle.
    Why is feminism 'divide and conquer'? If you apply your logic to other types of discrimination, you should be telling LGBT advocates, anti-racism advocates etc to stop fighting their corner, stop dividing and conquering and 'work together'. It just makes no sense.

    I'm glad that you're pro choice but abortion is a gender issue. The root of the problem is a woman's life is considered equal to a bunch of cells. If you don't see the gender-based discrimination in that argument, well..
    FortySeven wrote: »
    Also.

    Sentencing for crimes would be largely discriminatory to men. Women receive much more lenient sentences for crime.

    This may well be due to male influence believing women should be protected somehow. (Patriarchy) but this is where the having cake and eating it comes in. I don't see feminists looking to change this institution.

    These reasons and many others are the reason that the movement is largely discredited. It's equality when it's in women's favour but silence when it comes to anything that might cost.

    I'm not having a go here. Nor trying to stifle debate, just attempting to highlight some of the issues men have with feminism.

    I wildly support collaboration on equality but the first time I attempt to point out some of the opposing viewpoints I feel like I am being shouted down.

    If you just want to shroud the same old feminism in a new cloak to attempt to rebrand then it will fail. If you truly want collaboration for equality then there are some hard compromises to be made. This is all I am attempting to point out.
    Like I said, I don't see anyone telling the advocates for refugee rights, LGBT rights, disability rights, older people's rights to stop tearing people apart and just work together in a general sort of way. It's only those working for women's rights, which I find highly suspicious.


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  • #31
    FortySeven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭FortySeven


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Ask a migrant woman living here or a traveller if she thinks feminism isn't needed. They need it more than anyone.

    Again, it's not feminism they need. It is equality. Why exclude a large part of the population when they are offering to work with you?


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