Reframing feminism ** mod warning posts 1 and 50 **

eviltwin

FortySeven wrote: »

Again, it's not feminism they need. It is equality. Why exclude a large part of the population when they are offering to work with you?

They actually do have equality the same way I do. The legal protections they have are the same, the problem is the attitudes and culture they live in and for that they need feminism.

FortySeven

Macha wrote: »

Why is feminism 'divide and conquer'? If you apply your logic to other types of discrimination, you should be telling LGBT advocates, anti-racism advocates etc to stop fighting their corner, stop dividing and conquering and 'work together'. It just makes no sense.

I'm glad that you're pro choice but abortion is a gender issue. The root of the problem is a woman's life is considered equal to a bunch of cells. If you don't see the gender-based discrimination in that argument, well..


Like I said, I don't see anyone telling the advocates for refugee rights, LGBT rights, disability rights, older people's rights to stop tearing people apart and just work together in a general sort of way. It's only those working for women's rights, which I find highly suspicious.

You see, I would look at it this way. All those groups you mention would have come about around the same issues. Discrimination and rights. The rights side of all of them has largely been put to bed. I cannot think of a right that I have that any of those others don't. Largely these movements have all been successful and I would argue they are now reduced to educating roles within society.

The rights are there, discrimination will largely fade out in a generation now that the school system is passing equality into the curriculum.

I didn't mean feminism was divide and conquer. I meant society is. ALL those groups you mentioned want equality. Divided they are weak. Infighting is rife eg feminism v men's rights, even the lgbt community is at loggerheads over acceptance of various new gender variations.

They all want the same thing but it is every cause for themselves. Imagine the power of these groups combined.

Macha

FortySeven wrote: »

You see, I would look at it this way. All those groups you mention would have come about around the same issues. Discrimination and rights. The rights side of all of them has largely been put to bed. I cannot think of a right that I have that any of those others don't. Largely these movements have all been successful and I would argue they are now reduced to educating roles within society.

The rights are there, discrimination will largely fade out in a generation now that the school system is passing equality into the curriculum.

Mmm...I see what you're saying but it's a bit more complicated than that because some issues are structural. For example, it's illegal to pay women less for the same job these days but women still in general earn less, ie the pay gap. One of the main factors in this is that women end up taking on more of the caring duties for children, the elderly, the sick and the disabled and therefore seek employment that offers more flexibility but lower rates of pay. Also, traditional women's jobs tend to be paid less, eg cleaner, receptionist, care work.

And I'll say it again (:)) - if you're a man living in Ireland, you have the right to full bodily integrity. Giving up one of your kidneys or, hell, just donating blood could save a life. Would someone ever force you to? No - just imagine the hell that would break loose if the government mandated blood donations. But as a woman, I'm expected to host a foetus in my body for 9 months to save a life even if I don't want to. I mean, you even need written consent to take a organ out of a dead person in this country.

Similarly,

FortySeven wrote: »

I didn't mean feminism was divide and conquer. I meant society is. ALL those groups you mentioned want equality. Divided they are weak. Infighting is rife eg feminism v men's rights, even the lgbt community is at loggerheads over acceptance of various new gender variations.

They all want the same thing but it is every cause for themselves. Imagine the power of these groups combined.

Again, I see where you're coming from but in practice, it's more effective to focus on a single issue. I work in environmental advocacy myself and even within that, we pick a very small area (eg pesticides or GMOs) and focus our resources on some very specific policy change that we believe will improve things. You do have umbrella groups but they're not very effective.

Of course all work within the same framing of human rights but they have to focus on a specific issue or they'd be entirely ineffective.

meeeeh

Another thing (and it's a general observation not related to previous posts) is that feminists at the forefront are mostly also economically left leaning. Hilary Clinton was described as feminist only in the broadest sense and I suspect it's mostly because of her economic and foreign policies. There are some of us who do think equality for women is very important but are at the same time horrified that someone like Ruth Coppinger could end up in government some day. No movement could be everything for everyone and that will also drive away some people.

Shelga

Just today I've seen 3 separate Facebook friends proudly display their brand new, expensive engagement rings on social media.

What's feminist about expecting a massive fancy rock on your finger? Isn't this pick-and-choose feminism?

Isn't it easier to talk about equality for both genders in all aspects of life, whilst recognising that for issues like abortion, our shameful laws reflect poorly on everyone?

IvyTheTerrible

MOD AshwoodFloor, can we have less of the whataboutery please? You can have a read of the charter if you're unsure.

ancapailldorcha

I suppose the first thing to do with such a debate would be to define the term "feminism". A quick Google search threw this up:

Google wrote:

the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

On that basis, it'd be hard to find motivation for opposition to feminism. However, that's not how it's worked in practice in many instances. The way I see it, there are two main issues. The first is that feminism has an image of being about man-hating. The second is that it seems to be concerning itself with what appear to be very trivial issues.

On the first point, I understand that posters here and women in real life shouldn't have to apologise or answer for some of the comments made by prominent feminists in national newspapers. However, it does project that image that feminists hate men and some of it borders on hate speech. Some of these columnists often have lucrative incomes from speaking at events and book sales. Ultimately, there is a market for what they're selling. By contrast, many of the MRA types like Paul Elam are largely confined to obscure corners of the web. There's also a tendency to homogenise men so that we're all treated as being equal when it comes to things like average earnings when most men are effectively excluded from high paying jobs as well. I read the other day about a company which decided to impose a pay gap tax on its male employees even though they'll never become CEOs, professional actors or footballers.

Secondly, a lot of what I've read in columns about women's issues have centred on things which seem trivial, ie "manspreading", division of labour regarding household chores, etc.... This carries that implication that women have largely attained equal status with men in the West barring a few instances here and there. I'm not making this argument of course, just point out its existence.

There's also a tendency today to avoid debate either by shutting it down with slurs and expletives or by creating echo chambers or safe spaces in which dissent is not tolerated. This trend goes well beyond any one movement but its an important consideration. There's also a shift towards disregarding facts and statistics in favor of personalities. I've noticed figures like Milo Yiannopoulos and Donald Trump gaining popularity by appearing as rebels against and oppressive, political correctness-obsessed elites. A lot of men feel like they no longer fit into society nowadays. These chaps are typically working class who don't have the opportunities their fathers did due to automation, more competition for fewer jobs, etc... So, when people like Owen Jones can't express sympathy for them without adding that they're so privileged (here), it's no surprise that they're turning to Breitbart as it, for all its faults, is not demonising them.

I know most feminists don't hate men. They just want to live in a world where 400,000 girls a year don't have their genitals mutilated, where they can enjoy autonomy over their own bodies and not have to deal with being judged on their appearances the same way men don't have to. If these feminists want to engage men they need to stop playing the divide-and-conquer game that has become so widespread in modern discourse.

mzungu

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Women do not receive the same pay as men.

Take these figures from the National Women's Council of Ireland:

The Gender Pay Gap measures the relative difference in the average gross hourly earnings of men and women as a whole.

The latest figures from the EU Commission show that the Gender Pay Gap in Ireland is 13.9% - in other words women in Ireland are paid almost 14% less than men. The Gender Pay Gap exists even though women do better at school and university than men.
In the Irish context, what is perhaps most disturbing is the high cost of motherhood. Figures from the OECD show that in Ireland the Gender Pay Gap for women with no children is -17% but this increases significantly to 14% for women with at least one child – a jump of 31 percentage points. The gender pay gap exists across the sectors.

For the bottom 10% of earners, the Gender Pay Gap in Ireland is 4% but this rises to 24.6% for the top 10% of income earners, suggesting the continued presence of a glass ceiling and indirect discrimination.

NWCI has highlighted the Gender Pay Gap together with SIPTU on Gender Pay Day in February, a day which aims to highlight the amount of additional days a woman has to work so that her pay would be equal to a man’s pay.

http://www.nwci.ie/?/discover/what_we_do/womens_economic_independence/women_and_employment/gender_pay_gap/

Childless women earn on average 17% more....I've no idea why it was put down as -17% though. Almost as if it was a deliberate attempt at spinning! The gap, where it exists, is due to things like maternity leave etc.

BejayusBejayus

I don't think most female feminist Bloggers or journalists represent most women '' women in my circle anyway''
I reckon their are probably far more talented female journalists/Bloggers who look at the world through ''lets say '' more optimistic eyes...but their writings never get published

If you look Amy schumer she's probably the biggest female stand-up comedian Right now ..and she's not funny
she just tapped into the whole victim narrative thing in a few short comedy clips and became a mega star
but if you go on you-tube you'll find far funnier ,wittier Female comedians and nobody barely knows who they are
It's no different than untalented female Journalists , they are just doing the same thing ''sure not all the time but a lot off the time''yes

Dick phelan

Problem with feminism is the old saying empty vessels make the most noise, i'm a man and like most people support equal rights however it's hard not to dislike feminism when the feminism you see in newspapers and online is often just man hating, Most women do not hate men but the feminist movement has a lot of prominent figures who clearly do so it's hard for people to identify with it. Also i'm sorry feminism needs to accept there is no pay gap, it contently get's brought up as a reason for feminism yet it's been debunked several times, difference between wages and earnings ect. Besides abortion i can't think of one right women do not have that is given to men in this country.

midlandsmissus

Dick phelan wrote: »

Problem with feminism is the old saying empty vessels make the most noise, i'm a man and like most people support equal rights however it's hard not to dislike feminism when the feminism you see in newspapers and online is often just man hating, Most women do not hate men but the feminist movement has a lot of prominent figures who clearly do so it's hard for people to identify with it. Also i'm sorry feminism needs to accept there is no pay gap, it contently get's brought up as a reason for feminism yet it's been debunked several times, difference between wages and earnings ect. Besides abortion i can't think of one right women do not have that is given to men in this country.

Representation in all affairs of the country - politics? This is due to many issues and badly needs to change.

Sweetemotion

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Representation in all affairs of the country - politics? This is due to many issues and badly needs to change.

What issues? Do women not have the right to vote

midlandsmissus

Sweetemotion wrote: »

What issues? Do women not have the right to vote

Women can only vote for whoever is nominated.

We currently have 80% males in government and 20% females. A gender quota had to be introduced to reduce the bias in political parties.

The government has never once been balanced in this country.

Sweetemotion

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Women can only vote for whoever is nominated.

We currently have 80% males in government and 20% females. A gender quota had to be introduced to reduce the bias in political parties.

The government has never once been balanced in this country.

What was stopping women from joining politics?

Macha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

On the first point, I understand that posters here and women in real life shouldn't have to apologise or answer for some of the comments made by prominent feminists in national newspapers. However, it does project that image that feminists hate men and some of it borders on hate speech. Some of these columnists often have lucrative incomes from speaking at events and book sales. Ultimately, there is a market for what they're selling.

Can you give some examples? We've heard a lot in this thread of the perception that feminism is man-hating and that there are quite a number of feminist voices in the media demonstrating this but I haven't seen any examples.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

By contrast, many of the MRA types like Paul Elam are largely confined to obscure corners of the web. There's also a tendency to homogenise men so that we're all treated as being equal when it comes to things like average earnings when most men are effectively excluded from high paying jobs as well. I read the other day about a company which decided to impose a pay gap tax on its male employees even though they'll never become CEOs, professional actors or footballers.

Paul Elam and A Voice For Men have said some pretty misogynistic things in the past. If this is the best the MRA can do, it simply adds to my head scratching as to why feminism gets put under a microscope.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Secondly, a lot of what I've read in columns about women's issues have centred on things which seem trivial, ie "manspreading", division of labour regarding household chores, etc.... This carries that implication that women have largely attained equal status with men in the West barring a few instances here and there. I'm not making this argument of course, just point out its existence.

This is precisely the whataboutery that I was referring to earlier. The division of labour in the home has been a feminist cause around the word for a very long time. Anyone who calls that issue trivial does not know how much it can hold womens' careers back. It is also a key contributor to the pay gap and the pension gap. And...you're sort of referring to the argument, making the argument, and then saying you're not making the argument. Which is it to be?

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I know most feminists don't hate men. They just want to live in a world where 400,000 girls a year don't have their genitals mutilated, where they can enjoy autonomy over their own bodies and not have to deal with being judged on their appearances the same way men don't have to. If these feminists want to engage men they need to stop playing the divide-and-conquer game that has become so widespread in modern discourse.

Again, do you have examples of this divide-and-conquer game, and evidence that it's 'widespread'?

Dick phelan wrote: »

Problem with feminism is the old saying empty vessels make the most noise, i'm a man and like most people support equal rights however it's hard not to dislike feminism when the feminism you see in newspapers and online is often just man hating, Most women do not hate men but the feminist movement has a lot of prominent figures who clearly do so it's hard for people to identify with it. Also i'm sorry feminism needs to accept there is no pay gap, it contently get's brought up as a reason for feminism yet it's been debunked several times, difference between wages and earnings ect. Besides abortion i can't think of one right women do not have that is given to men in this country.

Who are these women who hate men?

And sorry yes there is a pay gap. The main causes are disproportionate responsibility for care work (which is almost always unpaid), traditional women's work being undervalued and career breaks. The other key part of the pay gap is the pension gap. The more, better paid work you do, the bigger your pensions. Women don't only miss out on the pay, they also end up with smaller pensions when they retire.

Sweetemotion wrote: »

What was stopping women from joining politics?

The lack of female role models, the lack of a culture of women entering politics, the overwhelming responsibility of care work, particularly childcare, the candidate selection process in some political parties.

midlandsmissus

Sweetemotion wrote: »

What was stopping women from joining politics?

Sweet emotion. Men! To put it bluntly.

Sonic Tonic

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Sweet emotion. Men! To put it bluntly.

No men are not stopping women from entering politics, women are free to enter. They clearly choose not to given the percentage of female independents.

sullivlo

Thread momentarily closed pending mods review

sullivlo

Okay folks. We're reopening the thread, however this is the first/only/final warning: stick on topic, be civil to one another, respect that others may have differing opinions to you.

This thread was intended as a discussion into rebranding the word feminism due to the negative connotations it has with certain parts of society. However it has descended into a clusterfcuk of whattabbouttery. It is entirely against the ethos and spirit of TLL.

ANY breaches of this will result in cards / bans.

FortySeven

So we're not talking about equality, what we're talking about is rebranding the same old feminism, rolling out the same old tired arguments and debunked statistics and unrealistic expectations. Calling it something else in the hope that no one will notice?

You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig....

I've been considering studying something to help me move into the men's rights movement. I do strongly believe we are being more and more marginalised and ridiculed. I would love to be part of an equality for all movement but perhaps (as earlier posters suggested) I should narrow the field and focus on issues that concern me.

That's a shame.

Macha

Like I said, I'm still waiting for links to the widespread examples of this man-hating feminism from mainstream media (ie not kooks with their own random blogs).

What I'm seeing is just the usual backlash arguments:
- feminists hate men
- there's no such thing as a pay gap
- feminists in developed countries focus on 'trivial' issues
- abortion isn't a feminist issue
- the lack of female public representation is entirely women's own problem
- what are all these problems facing women anyway?

And I'd put the recurrent idea that feminists should stop fighting for women's issues and just fight for quality for all down to almost-endearing naivete as to how advocacy actually works except I don't see anyone telling anti-racism, LGBT, immigrant advocates to stop with the divide and conquer.

Sweetemotion

Macha wrote: »

And sorry yes there is a pay gap

So the pay gap is because, women work less hours. :eek:

sullivlo

FortySeven wrote: »

So we're not talking about equality, what we're talking about is rebranding the same old feminism, rolling out the same old tired arguments and debunked statistics and unrealistic expectations. Calling it something else in the hope that no one will notice?

You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig....

I've been considering studying something to help me move into the men's rights movement. I do strongly believe we are being more and more marginalised and ridiculed. I would love to be part of an equality for all movement but perhaps (as earlier posters suggested) I should narrow the field and focus on issues that concern me.

That's a shame.

This is the OP:

I've been thinking a lot about feminism recently. I think that most of us here understand that feminism refers to equal rights in all areas for men and women. But the name is misleading to many. We're all familiar with the stereotype of the man-hating women who dresses misandry up as "feminism". That has irrevocably damaged the image of a feminist, IMO.

This was the basis for the discussion.

Many want equal rights for all, regardless of gender.

However the term "feminism" can have negative connotations. I personally would not call myself a feminist, as to me, feminism (in its current form) is out dated.

However that is in MY experience. I am lucky that I have had equal opportunities and not been mistreated because of my gender.

If I think of feminism I think of women burning their bras in the 60's or 70's (or whenever), rather than the equal status that most women have in our society.

I entirely disapprove of the man bashing that is assosciated with "feminism". I think that men and women and transgender and multi gender people all deserve equal rights across the board.

Can we not just all get on and accept that everyone deserves a shot at happiness?!

(I think that's the point Faith was trying to make. I could be wrong.)

midlandsmissus

Sonic Tonic wrote: »

No men are not stopping women from entering politics, women are free to enter. They clearly choose not to given the percentage of female independents.

Is that why every country worldwide does not have a gendet balance in government? Women choose not to enter. Really? I think that is a bit simplistic, seeing all the subjugation and dominance over women in this country in many cases in the past. It's not that long ago that women were not allowed to work after marriage.

Gender quotas had to be issued here due to continual bias and lack of reform in the parties.

Sweetemotion

Macha wrote: »

Like I said, I'm still waiting for links to the widespread examples of this man-hating feminism from mainstream media (ie not kooks with their own random blogs).

What I'm seeing is just the usual backlash arguments:
- feminists hate men
- there's no such thing as a pay gap
- feminists in developed countries focus on 'trivial' issues
- abortion isn't a feminist issue
- the lack of female public representation is entirely women's own problem
- what are all these problems facing women anyway?

And I'd put the recurrent idea that feminists should stop fighting for women's issues and just fight for quality for all down to almost-endearing naivete as to how advocacy actually works except I don't see anyone telling anti-racism, LGBT, immigrant advocates to stop with the divide and conquer.

Can you tell me one right in western civilisation, men have over women?

Macha

Sweetemotion wrote: »

So the pay gap is because, women work less hours. :eek:

Did you even read the link?

Women work more hours than men, when you add in unpaid work like housework, childcare, care of the sick and elderly. But it's unpaid work. This is why women gravitate towards part-time jobs but also jobs that offer more flexibility, which can often be at the expense of a higher hourly rate.

There's also the fact that traditional women's work such as receptionist etc is paid less.

FortySeven

Macha wrote: »

Like I said, I'm still waiting for links to the widespread examples of this man-hating feminism from mainstream media (ie not kooks with their own random blogs).

What I'm seeing is just the usual backlash arguments:
- feminists hate men
- there's no such thing as a pay gap
- feminists in developed countries focus on 'trivial' issues
- abortion isn't a feminist issue
- the lack of female public representation is entirely women's own problem
- what are all these problems facing women anyway?

And I'd put the recurrent idea that feminists should stop fighting for women's issues and just fight for quality for all down to almost-endearing naivete as to how advocacy actually works except I don't see anyone telling anti-racism, LGBT, immigrant advocates to stop with the divide and conquer.

Edit: I didn't say to narrow down to issues that concern you, I said narrow it down to a specific issue to get something to actually change. I lobby on environmental issues. Arguably, Europe isn't going to be the worst hit on climate change but I still lobby on it because I give a damn. That's the only requirement.

Yes. All those bullet points are exactly what I see feminism to be. Anything else just doesn't hold water with me. Rebranding will not change my perception of this.

If you look back to my first post in this thread I stated ALL isms included. I'm not saying only feminists. I have clearly stated that all rights groups of all persuasions have now achieved their goals and it is high to.e they stopped bickering amongst themselves and each other and work together to consolidate those rights by ensuring they are applied equally.

I just can't see it happening though. Feminism has overshot and needs to be pushed back a bit if we are to see true equality.

Sweetemotion

Macha wrote: »

Did you even read the link?

Women work more hours than men, when you add in unpaid work like housework, childcare, care of the sick and elderly. But it's unpaid work. This is why women gravitate towards part-time jobs but also jobs that offer more flexibility, which can often be at the expense of a higher hourly rate.

There's also the fact that traditional women's work such as receptionist etc is paid less.

If I told my boss, I can't make that meeting this afternoon. I've to go home and clean the house.

I'd be shown the door pretty fast.

Macha

FortySeven wrote: »

Yes. All those bullet points are exactly what I see feminism to be. Anything else just doesn't hold water with me. Rebranding will not change my perception of this.

But you (or anyone else) haven't even provided any proof to back up your perception. So I see it that you choose to see feminism this way and as an excuse to dismiss it.

FortySeven wrote: »

If you look back to my first post in this thread I stated ALL isms included. I'm not saying only feminists. I have clearly stated that all rights groups of all persuasions have now achieved their goals and it is high to.e they stopped bickering amongst themselves and each other and work together to consolidate those rights by ensuring they are applied equally.

Ah right, fair enough. But bickering? Who is bickering?

FortySeven wrote: »

I just can't see it happening though. Feminism has overshot and needs to be pushed back a bit if we are to see true equality.

And this sentence and attitude right here is exactly why we still need feminism. Women! You've gone to far! You need to be "pushed back"! Know your place!

IvyTheTerrible

Sweetemotion wrote: »

If I told my boss, I can't make that meeting this afternoon. I've to go home and clean the house.

I'd be shown the door pretty fast.

MOD Ah here, that's trolling and you know it. Don't post in this thread again.