British Labour MP shot near Leeds (mod warning in first post)

stefanovich · 18-06-2016 02:54PM

Sand wrote: »

Presumably that Mair has been influenced by some of the alarmist rhetoric which paints Britian as being the victim of a series of terrible, evil plots by the Brussels elite?

I don't think the rhetoric was alarmist. Your sarcasm is ridiculing those who recognise there is a real problem. This guy was a lunatic first and foremost.

jaykay74 wrote: »

That the confusion over his motivation is cleared up surely ? He is a terrorist.

I know what you are doing. Now I'll take a step back and wonder, "He's a terrorist just like those others in Orlando..."

He's not. Islam is breeding hate on an industrial scale. This is one disturbed individual harming an innocent albeit naïve woman.

scream wrote: »

Muslims follow a ''religion'' that's basically as hate filled and oppressive as it gets and very few ever publicly condemn acts of terrorism carried out in the name of Islam. No British organisation has supported his actions, which are probably more to do with a vulnerable lonely, mentally ill man left to fend for himself.

Exactly.

Pro Hoc Vice · 18-06-2016 02:58PM

stefanovich wrote: »

I don't think the rhetoric was alarmist. Your sarcasm is ridiculing those who recognise there is a real problem. This guy was a lunatic first and foremost.

I know what you are doing. Now I'll take a step back and wonder, "He's a terrorist just like those others in Orlando..."

He's not. Islam is breeding hate on an industrial scale. This is one disturbed individual harming an innocent albeit naïve woman.

Exactly.

So I can get this clear, if the person is mad and not Muslim and no one to blame except the nutter even if they declare loyalty to a political organisation. On the other hand if in the same facts the attacker is Muslim then not only is he guilty but all if Muslim faith. I get it now. Really logical. The mask is slipping for all to see.

jaykay74 · 18-06-2016 03:02PM

stefanovich wrote:

I know what you are doing. Now I'll take a step back and wonder, "He's a terrorist just like those others in Orlando..."

No, don't put words in my mouth. Thanks. Hate that f1cking sh1te

scream · 18-06-2016 03:03PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Your opinion of the religion and how some including in Islam have portrayed it, but many believe it's a religion of love. I have seen many times on TV when Muslims have condemed attacks. The organisation he had connection to had recent training exercise in Wales including knife skills. They have had marches on mosques and portrayed them selves as Christian, they seem to follow a hate filled view of Christ's teaching.

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/70000-muslim-clerics-issue-fatwa-condemning-terrorism/

http://www.ibtimes.com/indian-muslim-leaders-condemn-isis-trump-15m-muslims-sign-fatwa-against-islamic-state-2217715

http://time.com/4112830/muslims-paris-terror-attacks-islam-condemn/

Why did you lie?

I don't. Why do you want to defend the indefensible?

scream · 18-06-2016 03:05PM

wes wrote: »

Nice double standard there. Lumping all Muslims in together and complaining about people lumping in all right wing groups together. The inability of people like yourself (and the idiots in Britain First) to see the hypocrisy is astounding.

Provide some evidence that his mental illness caused his violence. I expect you can name his condition, and how such a condition can lead to violence. If you are going to make such a claim, I am sure you can provide evidence for it, as opposed to unfairly stigmatizing the mentally ill.

You really should stay up to date with the facts. Nobody is stigmatising people who suffer from mental health issues. Even the Police haven't reached a definite motive for his actions, perhaps just get a grip until they do.

stefanovich · 18-06-2016 03:05PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

So I can get this clear, if the person is mad and not Muslim and no one to blame except the nutter even if they declare loyalty to a political organisation. On the other hand if in the same facts the attacker is Muslim then not only is he guilty but all if Muslim faith. I get it now. Really logical. The mask is slipping for all to see.

I don't see Britain First preaching death. I do see a worryingly large minority of Muslims preaching death to the West though.

What's the mask?

In both Orlando and in this case a loner probably did it without instruction from whichever group they felt aligned with.

The difference in the Orlando case is that the group he aligned with is cutting peoples heads off in the desert. Britain First are not!

I am not saying that the entire muslim community are to blame. What I am saying is there is an extremely dangerous and hostile and large group of muslims who want nothing more than to destroy the west.

wes · 18-06-2016 03:07PM

scream wrote: »

You really should stay up to date with the facts. Nobody is stigmatising people who suffer from mental health issues. Even the Police haven't reached a definite motive for his actions, perhaps just get a grip until they do.

Some parts of the media are doing exactly that actually. I have been keeping up to date, and hence my annoyance. I expect if people are going to once again go for the rather predictable mental illness blame game, then I expect proof.

Sure, we have another poster (on this page of the thread) use the term "lunatic", which proves the point I am making, that people are happy to blame mental illness with 0 evidence to support such an assertion.

18-06-2016 03:14PM

wes wrote: »

Some parts of the media are doing exactly that actually. I have been keeping up to date, and hence my annoyance. I expect if people are going to once again go for the rather predictable mental illness blame game, then I expect proof.

When asked his name in court, he answered "Death to Traitors, Britain First".

The man's sister has said he suffered from mental illness.

I think there's a sporting chance that the man is insane.

Nobody in the public spehere has proven knowledge of anything, i.e. none his motives for murdering Jo Cox; that's what the trial is for. I think it's reasonable, however, to proceed with a strong suspicion that he is mentally ill.

My name is URL · 18-06-2016 03:16PM

People with mental problems don't exist in a vacuum. They are influenced by external factors

In this case, the man was very obviously influenced by the increasing levels of anti-immigration, xenophobic rhetoric which exists in Britain

stefanovich · 18-06-2016 03:20PM

wes wrote: »

Some parts of the media are doing exactly that actually. I have been keeping up to date, and hence my annoyance. I expect if people are going to once again go for the rather predictable mental illness blame game, then I expect proof.

Sure, we have another poster (on this page of the thread) use the term "lunatic", which proves the point I am making, that people are happy to blame mental illness with 0 evidence to support such an assertion.

Holy sh1t let me get this straight. This has nothing to do with mental illness and everything to do with Britain First and their dangerous rhetoric?

It has everything to do with mental illness why the f*ck are you denying it. Some harmless person suffering from panic attacks and anxiety is one thing. Brutally stabbing a person to death in broad daylight is madness. I'm sorry if my use of the word "lunatic" offends you but that's what he is.

wes · 18-06-2016 03:22PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

When asked his name in court, he answered "Death to Traitors, Britain First".

The man's sister has said he suffered from mental illness.

I think there's a sporting chance that the man is insane.

There 0 evidence that his mental illness has lead to any violence in the past, and with any knowledge of this condition claiming he is insane is nonsense, or that his mental illness was the cause of his violence.

Also, his out burst in court, make his reasoning pretty clear, and is not evidence that his mental illness was the cause of his violence. So again littler or no evidence to support such a claim.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Nobody in the public spehere has proven knowledge of anything, i.e. none his motives for murdering Jo Cox; that's what the trial is for. I think it's reasonable, however, to proceed with a strong suspicion that he is mentally ill.

So ignore his years of membership of far right organizations, despite the fact that you can't even tell me what his condition is called, but you expect we should have strong suspicions about a condition you can't even provide a name for. Complete and utter nonsense imho.

We have far more information about his politics than we do about his mental illness. So until some can provide a name for his condition, and how it could lead to violence, I stand by statement that people are once again stigmatizing the mentally ill for here own political reasons.

Samaris · 18-06-2016 03:23PM

wes wrote: »

Some parts of the media are doing exactly that actually. I have been keeping up to date, and hence my annoyance. I expect if people are going to once again go for the rather predictable mental illness blame game, then I expect proof.

Sure, we have another poster (on this page of the thread) use the term "lunatic", which proves the point I am making, that people are happy to blame mental illness with 0 evidence to support such an assertion.

Well, we do know that he's had history of mental illness. And, frankly, one does not go out into the street screaming any sort of political ideal while stabbing a stranger to death (and shooting them several times) with a fully sound mind.

Mental illness, or at the least, mental instability, is certainly partly to blame in this situation. And mental illness will allow or "encourage" people to do things that "sane" people would neither contemplate nor dare carry out if they did. Some aspects that tend to be shared throughout various forms of mental illness include a lack of comprehension of the full ramifications of whatever they're doing, both personal and for other people, a lack of full awareness of what they're doing and why, an inability to empathise with other people (this is not a complete lack, but it tends to be dulled down in depression, schizophrenia, paranoia, drug addiction and psychosis) and a sort of isolation that can make someone with mental illness prey to being swayed by ideologies that offer them a chance to belong somewhere, to be part of something, to give focus and/or to feel vindicated.

Now, look, I'm not saying that mental illness = evil person. Absolutely not. I've been diagnosed with one myself and I'm reasonably sure I'm not a bad person due to it! I -am- saying that he was easy prey to a fixation, perhaps encouraged by some of the more inflammatory forms of what passes for debate. Sadly, he acted on it, he was one of the rare few people, including those with mental illnesses, that do. The vast majority of us mildly crazy people don't and I think pretty much everyone knows that.

In terms of his particular case, he appears to have suffered from obsessive-compulsive disorder, and potentially depression as well. He spoke himself previously of OCD, and it was a fairly severe form, up to and including scrubbing his skin with pan scourers. When you're at the stage of harming yourself to alleviate the stress of the compulsion, it's a relatively severe form.

People with OCD can suffer from fixation quite regularly, although the form of it varies. They tend to dwell on it, becoming obsessed with it, and be unable to find relief from it bar by dealing with the problem. That gives a temporary relief, but no real pleasure from it. Depression causes ones thoughts to spiral inwards, which goes hand in glove with the obsession part of the OCD.

It is exceptionally rare for an OCD individual to be homicidally violent (at least DUE to the OCD), but aggressive thoughts and behaviors towards themselves (primarily) and other people (sometimes) is reasonably common.

wes · 18-06-2016 03:27PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Holy sh1t let me get this straight. This has nothing to do with mental illness and everything to do with Britain First and their dangerous rhetoric?

Prove that his mental illness was the cause. Come on, name the condition, and explain how it would lead to violence. I take you can do exactly that otherwise, you are clearly talking bull****.

stefanovich wrote: »

It has everything to do with mental illness why the f*ck are you denying it.

It does? Look forward to the evidence then. I am sure you can name the condition and provide the necessary information, on how it can lead to someone acting violently.

stefanovich wrote: »

Some harmless person suffering from panic attacks and anxiety is one thing. Brutally stabbing a person to death in broad daylight is madness. I'm sorry if my use of the word "lunatic" offends you but that's what he is.

Prove it then. You have proved nothing at all, and its disgusting that you continue to make such claims with 0 evidence to support your assertion.

So come on, name his condition and explain how it lead to his violence. Otherwise, you are stigmatizing the mentally ill for your own reasons.

wes · 18-06-2016 03:28PM

Samaris wrote: »

It is exceptionally rare for an OCD individual to be homicidally violent (at least DUE to the OCD), but aggressive thoughts and behaviors towards themselves (primarily) and other people (sometimes) is reasonably common.

Great, so we know he suffered from an illness that rarely leads to violence in your own words. So why are people blaming mental illness then?

A Dub in Glasgo · 18-06-2016 03:29PM

Samaris wrote: »

Well, we do know that he's had history of mental illness.

Do we? What is this mental illness that means he was a violent man?

Samaris · 18-06-2016 03:29PM

wes wrote: »

Great, can you name the condition he suffered from and how it could lead to violence? I have yet to see a single person provide this information, to back up there assertion. Mental illness cover a wide range of conditions, most of which do no cause a person to act violently.

I had edited my post, see above there.

wes · 18-06-2016 03:30PM

Samaris wrote: »

I had edited my post, see above there.

Done the same with mine.

Pro Hoc Vice · 18-06-2016 03:32PM

scream wrote: »

I don't. Why do you want to defend the indefensible?

I could ask you the same, anyone who shouts hate must accept when hate happens.

stefanovich · 18-06-2016 03:34PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I could ask you the same, anyone who shouts hate must accept when hate happens.

"Kill all unbelievers, death to infidels."

"We must control immigration"

Any difference there?

Samaris · 18-06-2016 03:35PM

wes wrote: »

Great, so we know he suffered from an illness that rarely leads to violence in your own words. So why are people blaming mental illness then?

Partly because, again, a completely sane and rational person does not go shooting and stabbing people. This is not a case of "stigmatise the mentally ill!", it's really not. At least not in the majority of cases, you always get extremists. Let's look at it from the other side - do you think from how he has spoken and acted so far, he rationally, calmly and after due consideration of all the ramifications of his act, went up to that woman and murdered her?

I do ask you to reread the rest of my post though, I have delved a bit into various -factors- of types of mental illness, including OCD, affecting rational behavior.

I am also not saying he was uninfluenced by other factors. Just that his mental state made him more susceptible to acting out on what he was obsessive over and having reinforced by the mood of anxiety in Britain at the moment and the inflammatory public debate that goes with it.

Snake Plisken · 18-06-2016 03:35PM

Ha ha you have to love the liberal lefties! Muslim man shoots up an nightclub in Orlando they say he is mentally ill, nothing to do with Islam!
Man stabs a politician in the Uk and no he isn't mentally ill he is far right extremist and nothing to do with mental illness!
It's a flipping joke!

18-06-2016 03:35PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

but many believe it's a religion of love.

Those people are naive idiots. If it peaches death for homosexuals and apostates (people who want to leave Islam), then it's hardly a religion of love. Whether it's in the West with Christians, or in the East with Buddhists or Hindus, Islam has always been the instigator of bloody wars with others religions because the ultimate goal of Islam is global domination, hence the reason why it had a very large empire at one stage.

You have to remember that the vast majority of Muslims were indoctrinated into Islam since they were infants and thought that Islam is everything in life, so they'll defend to no end, often using irrational, illogical and factually incorrect arguments. They were never offered an alternative view from a non-Muslim perspective.

18-06-2016 03:35PM

wes wrote: »

Great, can you name the condition he suffered from and how it could lead to violence? I have yet to see a single person provide this information, to back up there assertion.

Ah would you get it a rest, wes. Nobody is saying the evidence is conclusively proven. But he does have a history of mental illness and he's done something that appears psychotic, in the colloquial sense of the word, but also perhaps the medical.

It's a bit like when that woman came forward with information about Philip Cairns. I think the majority of people believe that she doesn't deserve stigma, because there's an understanding that she's a former sexual abuse victim.

The point being, proven factual evidence is generally considered an unreasonable expectation when discussing some major tragedy. However, we are entitled to have reasonably-formed suspicions.

So when a man with a history of mental illness performs a psychotic act, totally disproportionately, it's reasonable to form a strong suspicion that he's mentally-ill again.

Samaris · 18-06-2016 03:38PM

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Ha ha you have to love the liberal lefties! Muslim man shoots up an nightclub in Orlando they say he is mentally nothing to do with Islam!
Man stabs a politician in the Uk and no he isn't mentally ill he is far right extremist and nothing to do with mental illness!
It's a flipping joke!

Making sweeping insults to anyone that disagrees with your exact position doesn't help anything.

weisses · 18-06-2016 03:39PM

stefanovich wrote: »

"Kill all unbelievers, death to infidels."

"We must control immigration"

Any difference there?

Is that the language used on the (far) right ... ?? you must be joking

stefanovich · 18-06-2016 03:40PM

weisses wrote: »

Is that the language used on the (far) right ... ?? you must be joking

Who are we talking about here? Britain First?

Samaris · 18-06-2016 03:41PM

stefanovich wrote: »

"Kill all unbelievers, death to infidels."

"We must control immigration"

Any difference there?

Indeed. One is an extreme position held by a lunatic fringe based on Islamic principles. The other is a moderate position held by most of the population of any given area.

weisses · 18-06-2016 03:42PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Who are we talking about here? Britain First

You should know ... You made that remark

FriendComputer · 18-06-2016 03:45PM

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Ha ha you have to love the liberal lefties! Muslim man shoots up an nightclub in Orlando they say he is mentally nothing to do with Islam!
Man stabs a politician in the Uk and no he isn't mentally ill he is far right extremist and nothing to do with mental illness!
It's a flipping joke!

I love the right wingers who'll fall over themselves to claim all Muslims are salivating barbarians waiting to kill us all but a right winger kills an MP and hold on a second now! He was mentally ill, you can't prove it was because of his politics, let's just wait until the facts come out, stop politicising this murder!

My name is URL · 18-06-2016 03:46PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Who are we talking about here? Britain First

Such a reasonable bunch of people, aren't they?

Britain First threatens to target London Mayor Sadiq Khan with 'direct action'

Citing the apparent “intelligence” they receive, the group pledges to “focus on all aspects of their day-to-day lives and official functions, including where they live, work, pray and so on”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/sadiq-khan-britain-first-london-mayor-threaten-direct-action-a7047991.html

Britain First have been holding an 'activist training camp' in the Welsh mountains

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/britain-first-been-holding-activist-11474970

Just a matter of time now until they're classed as an extremist / terrorist organisation

British Labour MP shot near Leeds (mod warning in first post)

Comments