British Labour MP shot near Leeds (mod warning in first post)

beach_walker · 17-06-2016 11:27PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Funny how no one questions the media when it's a mental deranged Muslim.

I think you'll find there's plenty of questioning about the recent shooting in Orlando.

To all yis saying the media and hysteria caused this, I wonder do you have anything to say about the way Trump and his ilk are portrayed (i..e "literally hitler")? I've seen plenty equating him and Boris (and other faces of Leave).

Pro Hoc Vice · 17-06-2016 11:40PM

beach_walker wrote: »

I think you'll find there's plenty of questioning about the recent shooting in Orlando.

To all yis saying the media and hysteria caused this, I wonder do you have anything to say about the way Trump and his ilk are portrayed (i..e "literally hitler")? I've seen plenty equating him and Boris (and other faces of Leave).

I think much of what Trump says is very dangerous to call for a travel ban for 1/6 of the planets population based only on religion is scary and reminds people of certain things from the 30"s. Jewish population of Germany in 1930 was a bit less than 1% Muslim population of USA is about 1%. Taking Trump logic to next stage and the fact that Fl mass murder was a native US citizen of Muslim parantage, well how is a travel ban going to stop that, I am afraid of what Trump may say next.

Boris in my opinion has what every view that will help his agenda. Considering Borris"s great grand father was a minister in the Otoman Empire and his grand father and grand mother where Muslim and the Johnson name was picked to replace a very Turkish one, considering in his family history there is also French Jewish and a number of other people it may be more difficult for him to take up the I hate "insert group" as he more than likely partly that group.

People who for what ever reason spout hate must accept when that hate message hits home, well they have to accept some responsibility and that his for all sides.

Jayop · 17-06-2016 11:55PM

Trump's a hatemonger and Boris is an intelligent buffoon. If the media and figures on the left rile someone up to the point where they try to kill Trump I'll be the first to criticise them.

jackofalltrades · 18-06-2016 01:19AM

Jayop wrote: »

With the center and far right stoking up emotions since before the last GE over there it's no wonder something like this has happened.

You're apportioning blame to the centre??
The group that sits in the middle and takes a moderate and considered view on issues??

Exactly what I mean. Cameron is a moron. He runs a GE scaremongering about immigrants then expects to win a referendum that was always going to be about immigration. He wanted to have his cake and eat it.

He and all the others who've incited hate in the UK and further afield have this woman's blood on their hands.

That's a tad dramatic don't you think.
Where has David Cameron incited hatred?

The nonsense spouted by the Tory and other more extreme right groups are causing race hate incidents up and down the UK.
They are a direct causal factor in these incidents and this is no different.

Can you prove this?

"The Labour Party is now a threat to our national security, our economic security and your family's security."

The Prime ****ing minister said that. Are you surprised that some unstable nutcase took the message and decided to do something to protect their families security?

Can you prove that direct link?

Billy86 · 18-06-2016 01:25AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

You seem to forget that she was getting hate mail for a year or two. Its one nutjob.

Nothing to do with the "right"..

Same happened to Jill Dando.

One nutjob who it seems just so happened to be extremely right wing, and who is alleged to have shouted such a remark while committing the deed.

She had been vilified and receiving hate mail and threats for ages... then she got killed. Can you not see the very obvious connection there?

Details have yet to be seen before we actually know what happened, but it's becoming more and more apparent where his leanings appeared to lie. Claiming this had 'nothing to do with the right' is not more accurate than claiming Paris/Belgium had 'nothing to do with Islamic extremism' after quite a bit lot of info had come available showing that the guys were most likely Islamic extremists.

wes · 18-06-2016 02:22AM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The media is not getting its story straight. First he said "Britain First". Then we are told he was member of a far right club and now multiple reports say he said other words and he was not a member of any political group. What can we believe!

You will hear conflicting information, with terror attacks like this. Some of it will ultimately prove to be false.

Having said that, between the photo that has been found, the police investigating far right links, and the nazi memorabilia, far right literature etc, make it look increasingly likely that was a far right political motive.

Jayop · 18-06-2016 03:29AM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

You're apportioning blame to the centre??
The group that sits in the middle and takes a moderate and considered view on issues??
That's a tad dramatic don't you think.
Where has David Cameron incited hatred?

Can you prove this?

Can you prove that direct link?

The center right I clearly meant. In British politics that's the tories and they've been fear mongering about refugees for years.

Jayop · 18-06-2016 03:31AM

And given you've gone through posts for two days tk get them surely you seen where that quote comes from. If you didn't then learn how to Google.

jackofalltrades · 18-06-2016 03:57AM

Jayop wrote: »

The center right I clearly meant. In British politics that's the tories and they've been fear mongering about refugees for years.

Care to actually answer any of the questions in my post.
How about this one for a start.

Where has David Cameron incited hatred?

Stheno · 18-06-2016 10:50AM

When asked his name in court Mair said "death to traitors, freedom for britain"

A Dub in Glasgo · 18-06-2016 10:50AM

Hmm, still those on here have doubt?

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/744100186348265472

RobertKK · 18-06-2016 10:51AM

I think we can call him a far right wing terrorist.

Hande hoche! · 18-06-2016 10:51AM

Stheno wrote: »

When asked his name in court Mair said "death to traitors, freedom for britain"

Reminds me of Anders Breivik.

stefanovich · 18-06-2016 10:58AM

Stheno wrote: »

When asked his name in court Mair said "death to traitors, freedom for britain"

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Hmm, still those on here have doubt?

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/744100186348265472

What's the point you guys are trying to make?

Sand · 18-06-2016 11:00AM

stefanovich wrote: »

What's the point you guys are trying to make?

Presumably that Mair has been influenced by some of the alarmist rhetoric which paints Britian as being the victim of a series of terrible, evil plots by the Brussels elite?

Harry Palmr · 18-06-2016 11:03AM

The guy appears to be a vulnerable sort - last 20 years largely in social isolation, known mental issues and seduced by a simple message, wouldn't be surprised if he has an online "handler"

jaykay74 · 18-06-2016 11:28AM

stefanovich wrote: »

What's the point you guys are trying to make?

That the confusion over his motivation is cleared up surely ? He is a terrorist.

weisses · 18-06-2016 11:35AM

He shouted "freedom for Brittain"

He probably achieved the opposite with what he did.
His mates must be delighted ................ Not

FTA69 · 18-06-2016 11:42AM

There is a double standard at play here. Take Michael Adebelajo for instance, the man who killed Lee Rigby. A mate of mine from Cork saw him in Woolwich months before shouting at the bus stop and random passers by, he was a demonstrably mentally ill man. However, the commentary around his actions weren't stressing that fact that he had schizophrenia and was an all round headbanger - rather it was the usual stuff about Islamic terrorists and radicalisation and our society is under attack etc etc. His connections and political beliefs were analysed endlessly and projected everywhere.

This boyo Mair seems to be portrayed as crazy is as crazy does and people seem reluctant to discuss his far right affiliations or the climate in which he operated.

A Dub in Glasgo · 18-06-2016 11:47AM

FTA69 wrote: »

There is a double standard at play here. Take Michael Adebelajo for instance, the man who killed Lee Rigby. A mate of mine from Cork saw him in Woolwich months before shouting at the bus stop and random passers by, he was a demonstrably mentally ill man. However, the commentary around his actions weren't stressing that fact that he had schizophrenia and was an all round headbanger - rather it was the usual stuff about Islamic terrorists and radicalisation and our society is under attack etc etc. His connections and political beliefs were analysed endlessly and projected everywhere.

This boyo Mair seems to be portrayed as crazy is as crazy does and people seem reluctant to discuss his far right affiliations or the climate in which he operated.

Agree, Mair may well be vulnerable to brain washing and what is the latest phrase for that.... 'self radicalisation'

Harry Palmr · 18-06-2016 11:51AM

Agenda setting happens in media and on message boards, this killing only happened on Thursday afternoon there's plenty still to come out. Let's see what is reported and what the conclusions are eh?

18-06-2016 01:57PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Such is the power of hate speech

Jayop wrote: »

You don't have to stand on a soap box calling out for people to be killed to have a direct effect on someone getting riled up and doing something crazy.

An effect? Of course an effect.

Deterministic nonperiodic flow: A seagull flapping his wings in Howth can alter the course of weather worldwide, forever. It doesn't mean the gull caused El Fucking Nino.

You talk about "direct" causes. The only direct cause of Jo Cox's murder was when a man put wounds in her body using deadly weapons, and that man may have been insane.

It is ludicrous to diminish that killer's personal responsibility by anything other than insanity, when nobody from the Brexit leadership (or nobody at all) has urged violence in the course of this campaign.

It is even more ludicrous, or contemptible, do lay the blame at the feet of peaceful, law abiding people, whom you clearly disagree with, based only on their peaceful political beliefs.

It is harmful to liberal democracy to go out and kill politicians.

It is also harmful to liberal democracy to unfairly cast criminal liability against those who are engaging in the free exchange of peaceful ideas.

To accuse the Brexit side of being a "direct cause" of Jo Cox's murder is actually a disgusting comment. It is a vile thing to say. It is a vile thing to use a tragedy for a petty little political jibe.

Pro Hoc Vice · 18-06-2016 02:05PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

An effect? Of course an effect.

Deterministic nonperiodic flow: A seagull flapping his wings in Howth can alter the course of weather worldwide, forever. It doesn't mean the gull caused El Fucking Nino.

You talk about "direct" causes. The only direct cause of Jo Cox's murder was when a man put wounds in her body using deadly weapons, and that man may have been insane.

It is ludicrous to diminish that killer's personal responsibility by anything other than insanity, when nobody from the Brexit leadership (or nobody at all) has urged violence in the course of this campaign.

It is even more ludicrous, or contemptible, do lay the blame at the feet of peaceful, law abiding people, whom you clearly disagree with, based only on their peaceful political beliefs.

It is harmful to liberal democracy to go out and kill politicians.

It is also harmful to liberal democracy to unfairly cast criminal liability against those who are engaging in the free exchange of peaceful ideas.

To accuse the Brexit side of being a "direct cause" of Jo Cox's murder is actually a disgusting comment. It is a vile thing to say. It is a vile thing to use a tragedy for a petty little political jibe.

Just in the same way every Muslim is not to blame or cause of every mad attack.

youreadthat · 18-06-2016 02:11PM

Stheno wrote: »

When asked his name in court Mair said "death to traitors, freedom for britain"

I blame the parents. Who calls their kid that? :pac:

wes · 18-06-2016 02:15PM

Well, there can be no doubt of his motives now. Far right terrorism.

Also. I do find it disturbing that so many media outlets (as well as posters on here) will happily and unfairly stigmatize mentally ill people, who are far far more likely to be victims of violence as opposed to perpetrators. There is 0 evidence in the past of Tommy Mair that his mental illness caused him to commit any violence whatsoever, and the jump in some quarters to blame mental illness, is in my mind rather repugnant.

If his mental illness caused this violence, then I would expect media outlets saying it was the cause to provide evidence for such an assertion. As someone who has several members of my family who have suffered from mental illness, none of whom are violent in anyway, and whose illnesses cause them great difficulty in there day to day life, I would expect some responsibility from the media, who quite frankly should know better.

I think its about time that some responsibility is shown when attacks like this happen, and if people are going to blame mental illness, they need to damn well prove that was the cause, as the vast, vast majority of mentally ill people are the victims of violence and not the perpetrators.

scream · 18-06-2016 02:16PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Just in the same way every Muslim is not to blame or cause of every mad attack.

Muslims follow a ''religion'' that's basically as hate filled and oppressive as it gets and very few ever publicly condemn acts of terrorism carried out in the name of Islam. No British organisation has supported his actions, which are probably more to do with a vulnerable lonely, mentally ill man left to fend for himself.

wes · 18-06-2016 02:22PM

scream wrote: »

Muslims follow a ''religion'' that's basically as hate filled and oppressive as it gets and very few ever publicly condemn acts of terrorism carried out in the name of Islam.

Nice double standard there. Lumping all Muslims in together and complaining about people lumping in all right wing groups together. The inability of people like yourself (and the idiots in Britain First) to see the hypocrisy is astounding.

scream wrote: »

No British organisation has supported his actions, which are probably more to do with a vulnerable lonely, mentally ill man left to fend for himself.

Provide some evidence that his mental illness caused his violence. I expect you can name his condition, and how such a condition can lead to violence. If you are going to make such a claim, I am sure you can provide evidence for it, as opposed to unfairly stigmatizing the mentally ill.

Pro Hoc Vice · 18-06-2016 02:26PM

scream wrote: »

Muslims follow a ''religion'' that's basically as hate filled and oppressive as it gets and very few ever publicly condemn acts of terrorism carried out in the name of Islam. No British organisation has supported his actions, which are probably more to do with a vulnerable lonely, mentally ill man left to fend for himself.

Your opinion of the religion and how some including in Islam have portrayed it, but many believe it's a religion of love. I have seen many times on TV when Muslims have condemed attacks. The organisation he had connection to had recent training exercise in Wales including knife skills. They have had marches on mosques and portrayed them selves as Christian, they seem to follow a hate filled view of Christ's teaching.

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/70000-muslim-clerics-issue-fatwa-condemning-terrorism/

http://www.ibtimes.com/indian-muslim-leaders-condemn-isis-trump-15m-muslims-sign-fatwa-against-islamic-state-2217715

http://time.com/4112830/muslims-paris-terror-attacks-islam-condemn/

Why did you lie?

18-06-2016 02:35PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Just in the same way every Muslim is not to blame or cause of every mad attack.

It's hard to judge tone on a message board, but for clarity, I'm as far from a Muslim basher as a non-Muslim can be. I even happen to have an interest in Islamic civilisations. See my sig.

However, it's ridiculous to blame the right-wing Brexiteers for this murder, regardless of the fact that some of those people are clearly Islamophobes with ugly, nationalist opinions.

Pro Hoc Vice · 18-06-2016 02:40PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's hard to judge tone on a message board, but for clarity, I'm as far from a Muslim basher as a non-Muslim can be. I even happen to have an interest in Islamic civilisations. See my sig.

However, it's ridiculous to blame the right-wing Brexiteers for this murder, regardless of the fact that some of those people are clearly Islamophobes with ugly, nationalist opinions.

I agree on both counts while those who rabble rouse must accept they have a part in violence, it's not the same as having blame.

British Labour MP shot near Leeds (mod warning in first post)

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