Season 6 Episode 8 "No One" - "Non book readers"

jamo2oo9 · 15-06-2016 05:36PM

Anachrony wrote: »

Disappointed with Arya just shrugging off a clearly fatal wound and then running and jumping like nothing had happened. Opium doesn't help with sepsis, nor does dipping your fresh wound in the open sewage of a medieval canal. People wouldn't have great odds of surviving that today with modern medical intervention. Back then it was a death sentence. And this isn't applying real world logic to a fantasy series. It's applying internal consistency to the show. Previous wounds like this in the show were a slow, painful death.

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Very strong episode. Arya not showing no sign of injury was stupid.

Austria! wrote: »

This one gave us Arya surviving stupidly.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Who knew that the laceration of internal organs could be fixed by applying stitches to the external skin!
Arya should be dying of sepsis any day now.

But apparently... the woman with the great prow is an epic surgeon simply cos she stitched up philanderous lovers post-brawl in the past & gives Arya some heroin (milk of the poppy)!

Take a moment to ponder how bad writing this is.

The fúck is everyone's problem, you's can't wrap your mind around Arya's wound but you don't mind about the dragons, the direwolves, the zombies, the walkers, the shadows, the witches, the wizards, the colorful children of the golden turd of azaroth, Jon Snow coming back to life. If she was actually killed by the stabbing everyone would be even madder about how stupid a death they gave her.

Let a bit of fantasy take a ride.

Austria! · 15-06-2016 05:58PM

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

The fúck is everyone's problem, you's can't wrap your mind around Arya's wound but you don't mind about the dragons, the direwolves, the zombies, the walkers, the shadows, the witches, the wizards, the colorful children of the golden turd of azaroth, Jon Snow coming back to life. If she was actually killed by the stabbing everyone would be even madder about how stupid a death they gave her.

Let a bit of fantasy take a ride.

The dragons are the fantasy part. The stabbings are not. Human anatomy works the same as here, and has done the entire time.

EagererBeaver · 15-06-2016 06:04PM

Austria! wrote: »

The dragons are the fantasy part. The stabbings are not. Human anatomy works the same as here, and has done the entire time.

Precisely, really not that complex to grasp. Arya wasn't healed by dragons or magic or direwolves. There was no fantasy involved in it whatsoever, nor is there supposed to be, so the "why can you accept that but not this" argument is completely redundant.

"The **** is everyone's problem" indeed.

CMOTDibbler · 15-06-2016 06:07PM

Austria! wrote: »

The dragons are the fantasy part. The stabbings are not. Human anatomy works the same as here, and has done the entire time.

Yes. And some people die from wounds and some don't. That's just pure dumb luck which happens all the time in real life too.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/man-in-china-who-hires-assassin-to-kill-himself-survives-multiple-stab-wounds

http://www.ketv.com/news/man-survives-multiple-stab-wounds-in-friday-night-attack/36027200

http://www.oddee.com/item_98009.aspx

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/man-brooklyn-survives-multiple-stab-wounds-article-1.2300255

EagererBeaver · 15-06-2016 06:12PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Yes. And some people die from wounds and some don't. That's just pure dumb luck which happens all the time in real life too.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/man-in-china-who-hires-assassin-to-kill-himself-survives-multiple-stab-wounds

http://www.ketv.com/news/man-survives-multiple-stab-wounds-in-friday-night-attack/36027200

http://www.oddee.com/item_98009.aspx

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/man-brooklyn-survives-multiple-stab-wounds-article-1.2300255

You really need to let this go. People disagree with you, get over it.

CMOTDibbler · 15-06-2016 06:14PM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

You really need to let this go. People disagree with you, get over it.

Oh the ironing

EagererBeaver · 15-06-2016 06:19PM

Also, this debate didn't start over whether or not Arya could survive her wounds. Of course she could. She shouldn't really be in shape for a big chase but let's say we all let that go.

What was up for discussion was the quality of the writing. Arya survives because "reasons" and "plot armour" is not good writing. We all knew she'd survive.

People are defending her Braavos arc on the show by saying she's been in training. Obviously she has, but based on the previous episode, she's not very good at it. She was reckless and easily exposed. Not very master assassin of her. By robbing us of the fight with the Waif, we don't get to see any development of her at all. She may as well have just stuck her with the pointy end as Jon advised her to in the first episode of the show. Again, awful writing.

EagererBeaver · 15-06-2016 06:21PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Oh the ironing

I'm not the one who just googled "man survives multiple stabbings" or similar.

If you actually bothered to read your articles by the way, the very first one describes a guy getting stabbed multiple times who was in a critical condition and on the point of death. Do you actually think this supports your argument?!

CMOTDibbler · 15-06-2016 06:44PM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I'm not the one who just googled "man survives multiple stabbings" or similar.

The work of seconds.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

If you actually bothered to read your articles by the way, the very first one describes a guy getting stabbed multiple times who was in a critical condition and on the point of death. Do you actually think this supports your argument?!

I did. Stabbed ten times and survived. In a coma but still alive from a far more serious attack.

The point being that it's not unusual and others have said the same.

I do agree that the manner in which she was surprised and attacked was clunky and poorly thought through. It would have been far more believable had she got clear after the first slash at her abdomen and jumped in the canal, but then again would that have left the Waif believing she'd killed her?

As for her skills, it's not just how to fight (blind or otherwise), but the use of poisons and other methods of assassination that has been part of her training as well as the use of disguises etc. We don't have to see it all right then and there, presumably these skills will be used later in the series.

golfball37 · 15-06-2016 07:10PM

Austria! wrote: »

The dragons are the fantasy part. The stabbings are not. Human anatomy works the same as here, and has done the entire time.

She had her eyes put back in without a flaw recently and nobody batted an eyelid (excuse the pun).
I'm willing to suspend belief on a stab wound

OneOfThem Stumbled · 15-06-2016 08:18PM

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

The fúck is everyone's problem, you's can't wrap your mind around Arya's wound but you don't mind about the dragons, the direwolves, the zombies, the walkers, the shadows, the witches, the wizards, the colorful children of the golden turd of azaroth, Jon Snow coming back to life. If she was actually killed by the stabbing everyone would be even madder about how stupid a death they gave her.

Let a bit of fantasy take a ride.

This has been said by quite a few people, and I have to agree on some level.

I don't understand why people have an issue with:

"It's a Unix system - I know this!" in Jurassic Park. The film had dinosaurs for goodness sake.
Time Turner in Harry Potter. It has wizards in it. Hello?
The wooden acting in Attack of the Clones. I mean that film has jedi in it for god sake.
The undeserved criticism of the bee scene in the Wicker Man remake. That island couldn't have sustained a cult that large, so if you can accept that you can't really complain about the rest of the film.
The jumping the shark scene in Happy Days. Oh come on, people complaining about him ski-jumping in the leather jacket were happy enough with that jacket in other episodes. Hypocrites.
Any plothole in any sci-fi, fantasy, historical-fiction, horror or action movie... sure you were having to suspend disbelief at some level...

mikefoxo · 15-06-2016 09:29PM

Hmmm it kind of seems like the writers put themselves into a corner and needed to do something unlikely (and unsatisfying) to get themselves out of it

walshb · 15-06-2016 09:55PM

The Arya story is the most boring and pointless of any story in any programme ever!

Canadel · 15-06-2016 10:28PM

walshb wrote: »

The Arya story is the most boring and pointless of any story in any programme ever!

Characters whose storylines are significantly more boring than Arya's in no particular order:

Daenerys
Bran
Brienne
Tyrion (this season)

Billy86 · 15-06-2016 10:34PM

Faceless Men are going to come back and wind up playing a HUGE role in the white walker war, that's what I'm reckoning at least!

Akrasia · 16-06-2016 08:30AM

I feckin hope not

CMOTDibbler · 16-06-2016 09:06AM

Ozzy Man, amusing as always, pretty much nails the episode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsZsjzHV1sg

nhur · 17-06-2016 11:18AM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

This has been said by quite a few people, and I have to agree on some level.

I don't understand why people have an issue with:

"It's a Unix system - I know this!" in Jurassic Park. The film had dinosaurs for goodness sake.

Time Turner in Harry Potter. It has wizards in it. Hello?

The wooden acting in Attack of the Clones. I mean that film has jedi in it for god sake.

The undeserved criticism of the bee scene in the Wicker Man remake. That island couldn't have sustained a cult that large, so if you can accept that you can't really complain about the rest of the film.

The jumping the shark scene in Happy Days. Oh come on, people complaining about him ski-jumping in the leather jacket were happy enough with that jacket in other episodes. Hypocrites.

Any plothole in any sci-fi, fantasy, historical-fiction, horror or action movie... sure you were having to suspend disbelief at some level...

At the risk of giving a troll some of what they seek...

The joy in such movies as these that do away with some of the real-world rules is that they offer the "what if" possibilities and examine the knock-on effects of same. It's facetious to say that if we must suspend disbelief in one aspect of a movie that we shouldn't then expect any kind of coherence from the rest of the movie.

For example, compare the following:
a James Bond movie where he gets a watch with a laser that cuts metal... then when he gets apprehended by a villain:
1. he cuts his restraints with the laser watch and sneaks out the back door of the island lair
2. he mutates into a colony of bees and time-travels to the wild-west to kill a dinosaur who was a distant ancestor of the evil villain thereby foiling the villain's plot before it was even started.

Both are beyond belief, are you suggesting that I should have no more issue with one than another?

These alternate realities are supposed to be just that... realities... with some rules etc established at the outset ... not some fever dream in which absolutely anything can happen without any kind of warning or precedence

wp_rathead · 17-06-2016 11:56AM

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

The fúck is everyone's problem, you's can't wrap your mind around Arya's wound but you don't mind about the dragons, the direwolves, the zombies, the walkers, the shadows, the witches, the wizards, the colorful children of the golden turd of azaroth, Jon Snow coming back to life. If she was actually killed by the stabbing everyone would be even madder about how stupid a death they gave her.

Let a bit of fantasy take a ride.

It's inconsistent with what is already within the GoT universe
We see wounds have real life consequences in this show, with infections and injuries affecting mobility
Neither seemingly affected Ayra and the chase scene just didn't seem like it fit in the show

Imo they had no need to have Ayra get stabbed, could have had a great chase scene as she lures Waif to the darkness

OneOfThem Stumbled · 17-06-2016 12:20PM

nhur wrote: »

At the risk of giving a troll some of what they seek...

The joy in such movies as these that do away with some of the real-world rules is that they offer the "what if" possibilities and examine the knock-on effects of same. It's facetious to say that if we must suspend disbelief in one aspect of a movie that we shouldn't then expect any kind of coherence from the rest of the movie.

For example, compare the following:
a James Bond movie where he gets a watch with a laser that cuts metal... then when he gets apprehended by a villain:
1. he cuts his restraints with the laser watch and sneaks out the back door of the island lair
2. he mutates into a colony of bees and time-travels to the wild-west to kill a dinosaur who was a distant ancestor of the evil villain thereby foiling the villain's plot before it was even started.

Both are beyond belief, are you suggesting that I should have no more issue with one than another?

These alternate realities are supposed to be just that... realities... with some rules etc established at the outset ... not some fever dream in which absolutely anything can happen without any kind of warning or precedence

Apparently I am not ladling the satirical tone on generously enough.

Writers have a notional suspension of disbelief budget. They should spend this up front (clearly establishing whatever "beyond belief" aspects of their universe exist early on).

James Bond getting a laser watch from Q early on is totally fine. Moreover, it's a Chevov's gun. However I take exception seeing Bond half-way through the movie survive a 40 foot drop without a scratch. "Wait... when were we told he was a mutant? Oh no, he's not, it's just ****e writing."

Sure you can hand-wave it as being pure escapism, but then don't expect me to take it any more seriously than Family Guy if that's the case. And if it's escapist nonsense, but not actually funny, then it begs the question of what the point of it is.

If it's art you have to be drunk to enjoy, it ain't art.

Dempsey · 17-06-2016 12:32PM

I thought the point of it all was to show that Arya now has the mental strength/instinct to keep going despite any obstacle in her new 'profession'. Surely the pain from her injuries were masked by the adrenalin of you know running away from someone trying to kill her? And she demonstrated how to turn a previous weakness into a strength in dire circumstances which was the final piece of her training.

People complain when shows spell everything out and complain when they cant rationalize something that isnt spelled out for them. Did you really need an exposition at this point? Was she suppose to lie down and ask to be finished off quickly like the hound did?

I think Jaqen allowed her to leave because she still respected the many faced god and believes she can be manipulated to assassinate for him in the future.

nhur · 17-06-2016 01:33PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Apparently I am not ladling the satirical tone on generously enough.

Writers have a notional suspension of disbelief budget. They should spend this up front (clearly establishing whatever "beyond belief" aspects of their universe exist early on).

James Bond getting a laser watch from Q early on is totally fine. Moreover, it's a Chevov's gun. However I take exception seeing Bond half-way through the movie survive a 40 foot drop without a scratch. "Wait... when were we told he was a mutant? Oh no, he's not, it's just ****e writing."

Sure you can hand-wave it as being pure escapism, but then don't expect me to take it any more seriously than Family Guy if that's the case. And if it's escapist nonsense, but not actually funny, then it begs the question of what the point of it is.

If it's art you have to be drunk to enjoy, it ain't art.

wait - now i'm confused... you being satirical now? cos this is the same sentiment as ur last post... that any broken rule is the same to you as if all established rules are broken because then it's 'escapist nonsense'?
What confuses me is why you'd be reading boards posts on said 'escapist nonsene' and even more confused about why you would post that other people shouldn't be getting upset about inconsistencies in what you consider 'escapist nonsense'?

well - that's enough out of me. respond if you will i'm moving on.

Billy86 · 17-06-2016 01:51PM

Funny recap, found the bits on Bronn and especially the Faceless Men hilarious.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 17-06-2016 02:39PM

nhur wrote: »

wait - now i'm confused... you being satirical now? cos this is the same sentiment as ur last post... that any broken rule is the same to you as if all established rules are broken because then it's 'escapist nonsense'?
What confuses me is why you'd be reading boards posts on said 'escapist nonsene' and even more confused about why you would post that other people shouldn't be getting upset about inconsistencies in what you consider 'escapist nonsense'?

well - that's enough out of me. respond if you will i'm moving on.

Wait, now I'm confused. I thought you were countering my previous post, not agreeing with it, which would seem to be you thinking I was being sincere; whereas I was agreeing with you in my reply to you.

Or perhaps you are agreeing with my agreeing of you agreeing with my disagreeing, in which case I, naturally, agree.

(satire first post, no satire second)

Billy86 · 17-06-2016 02:40PM

wp_rathead wrote: »

It's inconsistent with what is already within the GoT universe
We see wounds have real life consequences in this show, with infections and injuries affecting mobility
Neither seemingly affected Ayra and the chase scene just didn't seem like it fit in the show

Imo they had no need to have Ayra get stabbed, could have had a great chase scene as she lures Waif to the darkness

Exactly, the Hound/Brienne fight was long and brutal, but the injuries Arya got you could argue were worse (if I recall the fight well there weren't that many stabs etc), yet the Hound nearly died from it and probably took the guts of a full season to get back to proper health (had the shown been following him*). Meanwhile preteen (I think?) girl Arya gets probably worse injuries, and what is made out to probably be the next day (more time may have lapsed, but they showed it poorly if that's what they intended) she is jumping and sprinting all over the city, sliding on her stomach on the ground under carts, etc.

It was just poorly done in that sense, should have left at least 1-2 episodes for her to recover off screen, or worked something separate out for the chase scene (and not told the Waif actress to pretend to be the T-1000, Christ that was cringey!).

Like someone else said, a general rule is you can go as far out and ridiculous/insane as you want in most sci-fi/fantasy, but you need to establish the rules early on. You can expand on these rules during the show (e.g. new rules for the dragons as they grow, which we have seen) but you need set rules. If it turned out for example that sticks and stones (just not metal) could damage the white walkers when all else seems lost that's a cop out. If though, it is shown that water is something they do not like it might be a bit of a cop out, but would also make sense since they've stopped short of crossing/touching water a number of times if I recall (and otherwise could have just gone around the wall at any time).

That's another one, if the white walkers turned the water around the wall to ice and crossed over fine and dandy, it would be a massive cop out. Otherwise they would have done so hundreds of years ago.

*Interesting point that just hit me actually, should have probably been more obvious - The Hound was (essentially) resurrected by 'Christ' and the most peaceful men in all of Westeros dressed in while, while the Mountain was (essentially) resurrected by something else - not necessarily 'the devil' but dark alchemy by one of the creepiest guys in all of Westeros, who always wears black. Obvious contrasting images there, but it also makes you wonder if the Lord of Light is indeed 'the good guy' (his image is also tied to fire which will obviously be needed to beat the White Walkers, who to this point have been the definitive baddies in the show).

leggo · 17-06-2016 05:28PM

Here's something that's been on my mind the past few weeks: why are we convinced the High Sparrow is a bad guy and want to see him get his comeuppance? His cause is honest and noble, he's consistent, he's scheming and a politician...but then so is just about everyone with a bit of power on this show aside from Jon. Why do we not want to see him wipe out Cersei and the Tyrrells? They're loathsome people. If this was real life, the High Sparrow would be seen as a hero. Instead the show seems to be pitting Cersei as some kind of victim. Margeary is a younger, more deviant and savvy version of Cersei, and the Tyrrells as a whole seem to shift their allegiance more often than the weather. The only person I want to see survive out of that whole dynamic is Jaime. Otherwise the High Sparrow is welcome to, and probably doing the realm a favour in, offing the rest of them. Good enough for the Lannisters to be wiped out by a self-absorbed scheme of Cersei's backfiring.

CMOTDibbler · 17-06-2016 05:35PM

leggo wrote: »

Here's something that's been on my mind the past few weeks: why are we convinced the High Sparrow is a bad guy and want to see him get his comeuppance? His cause is honest and noble, he's consistent, he's scheming and a politician...but then so is just about everyone with a bit of power on this show aside from Jon. Why do we not want to see him wipe out Cersei and the Tyrrells? They're loathsome people. If this was real life, the High Sparrow would be seen as a hero. Instead the show seems to be pitting Cersei as some kind of victim. Margeary is a younger, more deviant and savvy version of Cersei, and the Tyrrells as a whole seem to shift their allegiance more often than the weather. The only person I want to see survive out of that whole dynamic is Jaime. Otherwise the High Sparrow is welcome to, and probably doing the realm a favour in, offing the rest of them. Good enough for the Lannisters to be wiped out by a self-absorbed scheme of Cersei's backfiring.

The High Sparrow is a hypocrite. He purports to eschew the trappings and use of power, yet threatens force againts Jaime and others by virtue of the number of followers he has. The faith militant is an army who carry weapons openly and use them whenever they meet resitance and have murdered those they consider 'sinful'.

He can send his faith militant to take Cersei by force if necessary, yet he portrays himself as humble and penitent. :rolleyes:

CMOTDibbler · 17-06-2016 05:44PM

wp_rathead wrote: »

It's inconsistent with what is already within the GoT universe
We see wounds have real life consequences in this show, with infections and injuries affecting mobility
Neither seemingly affected Ayra and the chase scene just didn't seem like it fit in the show

Imo they had no need to have Ayra get stabbed, could have had a great chase scene as she lures Waif to the darkness

The writers have said that they were trying to show that despite all her training Arya is still just a young girl and she let her guard slip thinking of going home and getting away from Braavos.

Probably over-egging it, but it's something we do forget. As for the recovery time, I'm not convinced I needed to see a clunky passage of time montage just to get that point. It's relatively easy to accept that there must have been some time passed for her to convalesce and partially heal. They split the scenes for that purpose I assume. Sometimes we get a reference to time like Dany being told it was seven days march to Meereen and arriving by Drogon that night. But other times it's just assumed that time has passed.

Conall Cernach · 17-06-2016 08:24PM

All of this Arya healing stuff could have been solved if instead of Lady Crane giving Arya milk of the poppy she had said she was giving her some potion from Qarth and left it ambiguous as to what it could do.

Dempsey · 17-06-2016 10:07PM

Milk of the poppy might have other ingredients in it besides opium. Love all the medievil doctors in the house!

Season 6 Episode 8 "No One" - "Non book readers"

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