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2 year old taken by alligator at Disney Land resort Florida hotel

1…6781012

Comments

  • #272
    reason vs religion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭reason vs religion


    metaoblivia wrote: »
    Because it's a lake in Florida.
    I don't mean this in a mean way, but because of this incident, I've truly come to realize how little people outside of Florida understand about alligators.

    I don't mean this in a mean way...but why would you expect anyone who has hasn't had any contact whatever with crocodiles and alligators outside of a zoo to have an understanding of their behaviour and habitat?

    If Disney World thought it was a genuine risk, they would have had nets or underwater cages along the perimeter of the lake.


  • #273
    metaoblivia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭metaoblivia


    reason vs religion wrote: »
    metaoblivia wrote: »
    Because it's a lake in Florida.
    I don't mean this in a mean way, but because of this incident, I've truly come to realize how little people outside of Florida understand about alligators.

    I don't mean this in a mean way...but why would you expect anyone who has hasn't had any contact whatever with crocodiles and alligators outside of a zoo to have an understanding of their behaviour and habitat?

    If Disney World thought it was a genuine risk, they would have had nets or underwater cages along the perimeter of the lake.

    I see what you did there - I spot the snark!

    That comment that you're calling me to the floor for was a comment about myself, not about other people. I feel like everyone has a comparable experience of growing up just knowing something & then going outside of your bubble to see it from a different perspective. This thread has been incredibly educational for me in that regard. I knew tourists didn't know much about gators, but I did think most would know that gators are in every fresh water body of water. Obviously I was wrong! Disney is too, apparently, and they should fix that.

    That said - and this may be the result of growing up in a place with a lot of dangerous animals - I always research the wildlife and my potential exposure to it when visiting a new place. I educated myself about bears when I went to Tahoe, and I'm considering Uganda as a potential destination & while I'd be at a resort, you can bet your ass if I do go, I'll be researching potential wildlife encounters & how to best keep myself safe (not that you ever can 100%).

    As for your suggestion of underwater cages or nets - wouldn't work. Gators easily chew through nets & cages just haven't proved to be effective.


  • #274
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,185 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    The alligators in the state need to be hunted down to about 5% of their current population. This instills an instinctive fear of humans in the species. Like our ancestors did to Irish wolves.

    Australia did this until hunting was banned. Lo and behold the crocodile population soared as did attacks on humans.
    But of course you get left wing liberal douchebags who would prefer to see dead babies instead of dead reptiles.

    Actually it was the English that killed off the wolves here, yes the Irish hunted them but had no desire to kill every last one of them.

    The croc was pretty much wiped out in Australia before it was made a protected species.

    animals have just as much right to live on the planet as humans, even more so if anything because we've done nothing but wreck the place.


  • #275
    Tipperary Fairy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Tipperary Fairy


    metaoblivia wrote: »
    That said - and this may be the result of growing up in a place with a lot of dangerous animals - I always research the wildlife and my potential exposure to it when visiting a new place. I educated myself about bears when I went to Tahoe, and I'm considering Uganda as a potential destination & while I'd be at a resort, you can bet your ass if I do go, I'll be researching potential wildlife encounters & how to best keep myself safe (not that you ever can 100%).

    This is what I've been saying, I don't know how a person, let alone parents, wouldn't educate themselves as to dangers of a place they're travelling to.

    There was recently a woman near Cairns, who went swimming in the sea despite there being signs everywhere, and was taken by a crocodile. Officials came right out after and pretty much said she was stupid and shouldn't have ignored the signs.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/30/asia/australia-croc-attack/


  • #276
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    metaoblivia wrote: »
    The lifeguard was guarding the pool, not the beach. He may have heard the commotion and turned to see the man running into the water.

    All I've read is that the father was actually with the boy.


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  • #277
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,687 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    So to sum up:

    WDW should put alligator warning signs on all bodies of water, especially for out-of-state tourists

    Incredibly low-odds accidents can happen to children, despite being close to you

    No topic is too tragic for rampant soapboxing on the internet

    Everybody is perfect at being a parent, even people with no kids


  • #278
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I love the way people who criticise the supervision the boy was given are assumed to be saying they're perfect.


  • #279
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,687 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I love the way people who criticise the supervision the boy was given are assumed to be saying they're perfect.

    You sound like my ma being passive aggressive when I was a teenager. :)

    Some people think they're so smart.

    Ma, I'm standing here beside you.


  • #280
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Bottom line is that it was a freak occurrence. The body was recovered intact and the resort are going to be reviewing their signage and wildlife conservation policies. Best to let it be now.


  • #281
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 25,000 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    metaoblivia wrote: »
    I knew tourists didn't know much about gators, but I did think most would know that gators are in every fresh water body of water. Obviously I was wrong! Disney is too, apparently, and they should fix that.
    Yup, speaking for myself I'd have assumed the alligator population was mainly out in the swamps with the occasional stray finding it's way into nearby suburbs. The thought that Walt Disney World wouldn't be able to protect it's park guests from them would never have even crossed my mind.

    One question that crosses my mind seeing your mention of "fresh water". Would making that lake safe have been as simple as salinating the water?

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  • #282
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,946 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I love the way people who criticise the supervision the boy was given are assumed to be saying they're perfect.

    I'm curious about the people who are saying parental supervision was the reason for this tragedy - specifically, it appears that the father was a few feet away, but even if he was holding the child's hand, how parental supervision in their eyes would have changed the outcome. It wouldn't matter if the child was ankle deep in the water or 2 feet from it, alligators can lunge rapidly onto land too if they see something they want.

    The alligator was the length of an adult male, and far stronger. It lunged from the water, grabbed the boy disappeared with him in probably a matter of seconds. The most threatening thing the dad had to hand at that moment in time was probably his flip-flops. Chances are that even if someone was standing right beside the toddler with a gun, the speed at which the attack occurred may not have given them time to take a shot.

    I'm really not seeing anyone to blame here. Disney have some culpability by not having alligator signs on their properties, which by now I'd say has been rectified, but even then, signs can only do so much if they are potentially everywhere, and have speed, strength and agility like Metaoblivia says.

    This thread has been some education, that's for sure. Like Sleepy, I'd have assumed that alligators stayed around swampland with occasional forays into the suburbs. I had no idea they could climb, or chew through wire /wood /steel.


  • #283
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Neyite wrote: »
    Disney have some culpability by not having alligator signs on their properties, which by now I'd say has been rectified, but even then, signs can only do so much if they are potentially everywhere, and have speed, strength and agility like Metaoblivia says.

    I'd say they have a bit more than just some culpability here. For those who haven't had a look at where it happened; the lake itself is over 200 acres in size and it has been reported that it's fed by a number of canals but it is divided and the beach where the incident happened is part of the luxury Grand Floridian resort, which has only one main canal leading to the bigger lake and two smaller ones which aren't directly connected to the larger lake. This is the family resort.


  • #284
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Lollipops23 wrote: »
    Absolutely horrific- his poor parents, I can't even begin to imagine the trauma of having to witness that.

    I was in Florida last year for work- Estero, so off the beaten track somewhat. We were told not to enter *any* body of water unless it was a bath.

    Having been in Florida a good few times and staying down in the Lakeland area south of Orlando, the place is full of fecking water. and all those lakes have gators.
    I used to fly out of airport surrounded on two sides by lakes.
    People use to boat and water ski in them.
    I asked what happens if we ditch in the water and I was told "shure the gators will be frightened by the noise."
    I often wondered what happens after the noise dies down, do they realise lunch is sitting out in the middle of the lake. :(

    Another instructor joked that he had been in all the lakes and there was nothing to worry about. He had wrestled gators and had the macho Steve Irwin outlook.

    The locals often have a blase attitude to gators.
    Hell my other half worked in Florida for a time and she used to swim in an area with gators.

    One of the English pilots one morning was down at end of garden sipping on his morning coffee when he spotted the eyes in the water watching him.
    He legged it back inside and never went down the garden again and this was a combat veteran.

    I guess what I am saying in all this is that people have varying opinions and outlooks on degrees of risk.

    People do have a point when they have a go at the parents.
    As another poster said you should know something about the wildlife in an area you are visiting.

    The parents should have known not to have a very small child in the water, especially if there was a no swimming sign and especially at 9.15pm night when these feckers often hunt.

    Disney will probably get their asses sued for being remiss in not posting warning signs, but they will also now probably wipe out all gators from anywhere near them.

    As for the poster equating a open body of water in Florida to an aquarium in Dingle.
    Stop being facetious.

    Even the big aquariums like in Sydney, in a country surrounded by the most vicious sharks in the world, doesn't have any of the real dangerous sharks.
    So there is no fecking hope Dingle would have one. :rolleyes:

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #285
    reason vs religion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭reason vs religion


    metaoblivia wrote: »
    I see what you did there - I spot the snark!

    That comment that you're calling me to the floor for was a comment about myself, not about other people. I feel like everyone has a comparable experience of growing up just knowing something & then going outside of your bubble to see it from a different perspective. This thread has been incredibly educational for me in that regard. I knew tourists didn't know much about gators, but I did think most would know that gators are in every fresh water body of water. Obviously I was wrong! Disney is too, apparently, and they should fix that.

    That said - and this may be the result of growing up in a place with a lot of dangerous animals - I always research the wildlife and my potential exposure to it when visiting a new place. I educated myself about bears when I went to Tahoe, and I'm considering Uganda as a potential destination & while I'd be at a resort, you can bet your ass if I do go, I'll be researching potential wildlife encounters & how to best keep myself safe (not that you ever can 100%).

    As for your suggestion of underwater cages or nets - wouldn't work. Gators easily chew through nets & cages just haven't proved to be effective.

    I'm sorry, I didn't mean it to be a slight.

    I was in Australia recently where I went swimming at the beach. I was aware that sharks inhabited that waters and that swimmers were liable to attack. (In other words, I was more knowledgable about the threat they posed than I was of alligators.) Yet I assumed that were there even minimal danger that I would be attacked, authorities would have put unambiguous restrictive measures in place. Similarly, I would have assumed that if a Disney resort I was staying at was hosting an outdoor movie night, at dusk, on a strip of sand that slopes into water (more commonly called a beach), there was not a risk of fatal attack by wading a few feet in.

    Re. my cage/nets idea: larger alligators are removed from the lake. I imagine alligators aren't frequently in te area metres from the beach, otherwise more precautions would have been taken. I'm sure a cage could be built to withstand the minor attacks of the occasional juvenile alligator.


  • #286
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,946 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    jmayo wrote: »
    As for the poster equating a open body of water in Florida to an aquarium in Dingle.
    Stop being facetious.

    Even the big aquariums like in Sydney, in a country surrounded by the most vicious sharks in the world, doesn't have any of the real dangerous sharks.
    So there is no fecking hope Dingle would have one. :rolleyes:

    That was me. And I didn't equate them at all. I was making a totally different point which you clearly missed.

    But Dingle do have sharks. And I'm pretty sure that the ones there have teeth and are capable of biting if they felt threatened or scared.. I'm pretty sure I saw a hammerhead shark in there when I visited, and while the black tip and white tip sharks are usually pretty timid they have the capability to bite and have done in the past.

    So its pretty stupid to imply that because Dingle doesn't have a Great White or other more aggressive species, that the sharks in general and particularly the ones in Dingle there are not potentially harmful.


  • #287
    donegal.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭donegal.


    to equate the danger of sharks in kerry to the danger of alligators in florida is beyond ridiculous.


    edit: i've reread the above several times now, what point are you trying to make?


  • #288
    HensVassal
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,569 ✭✭✭HensVassal


    donegal. wrote: »
    to equate the danger of sharks in kerry to the danger of alligators in florida is beyond ridiculous.


    edit: i've reread the above several times now, what point are you trying to make?

    I really don't think the poster was equating the two. It's becoming quite tedious having to explain to people that analogies are NOT comparisons nor are they equating anything.

    But people don't want to think or see things from a wider angle, they just say "it's ridiculous comparing X to Y" when that wasn't the object at all.


  • #289
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    To be honest, there is actually an increasing danger of large sharks in Irish waters, primarily down around the south coast, Kerry, Cork, and perhaps Galway. At least five Great Whites have been caught in Irish waters over the last decade, as the water has warmed enough to make the area habitable to them. There is also evidence for larger sharks up around Scotland too, as there's a big seal population which is very attractive to your average large shark.

    Ireland has 39 species of shark in its waters at the moment, the vast majority of which would be a hell of a lot more alarmed at a human than the human should be about it. Generally they're small, under 1M, and are really, really unlikely to take a lump out of you unless it thought you were a very small seal. Although sharks -are- attracted to humans and their activities, since many human activities (i.e. trawling and fishing), equal easy lunch for a lazy predator.

    Irish coastal waters are actually great for sharks, given the wide fetch of the Atlantic, the warm current of the Gulf Stream and the deep ocean shelf nearby. The one thing stopping big sharks from lurking up this way was the temperature, which was just about too cold to interest them. It was always borderline though, and it's steadily moving into their green zone. It is worth noting that sharks are generally more sluggish in colder waters (including our warmer "cold" waters, we're not tropical!) anyway, and would be unlikely to go Jaws on the local population.

    Obviously, this is not even close in comparison to the risk of alligators in Florida, which is a definite risk with a very common species native to the region. Comparing them is apples and oranges in terms of risk factor.

    However, someday in the not too distant future, it may well become an actual risk factor for Irish people to acquaint themselves with when it comes to swimming off the Irish shore. But that day is not today :P


  • #290
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,463 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    HensVassal wrote: »
    I really don't think the poster was equating the two. It's becoming quite tedious having to explain to people that analogies are NOT comparisons nor are they equating anything.

    But people don't want to think or see things from a wider angle, they just say "it's ridiculous comparing X to Y" when that wasn't the object at all.

    The poster was trying to rubbish the suggestion that a parent should be prepared for the situation/location they're in.

    Said poster made the ridiculous analogy of investigating the glass thickness in an aquarium, somehow equating that to not going near the water in aligator infested florida.

    He was indeed equate the two, as if to explain away the responsibilities of the parents. Then again, sure what do we know, we couldn't possibly have an accurate opinion of kids if we don't have one. :rolleyes:
    I don't need to be an electrical engineer to know if fooking stupid to stick a fork into the socket in the wall....'Nuff said.


  • #291
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,946 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    The poster was trying to rubbish the suggestion that a parent should be prepared for the situation/location they're in.

    Said poster made the ridiculous analogy of investigating the glass thickness in an aquarium, somehow equating that to not going near the water in aligator infested florida.

    He was indeed equate the two, as if to explain away the responsibilities of the parents. Then again, sure what do we know, we couldn't possibly have an accurate opinion of kids if we don't have one. :rolleyes:
    I don't need to be an electrical engineer to know if fooking stupid to stick a fork into the socket in the wall....'Nuff said.

    This was the exact post. It was in response to Dolbert who had linked to a facebook post about parents not heaping the blame on other parents like in this case and in the Zoo case because they were accidents. We were responding to people who were holding the parents to blame for the alligator attack.

    You bring a child to a place of interest aimed at a child then its reasonable to assume that steps have been taken to make it safe. If there is a lapse in that safety then its not really fair that a parent is supposed to be a fencing /gorilla expert, or an alligator expert. Parents generally do keep a close watch on their kids and still bad sh!t can happen. Sarah Bolger did. She let go of her son's hand to pay the butcher and he was gone the next second.

    I hold my sons hand all the time. Or he's on reins. Occasionally if its really safe, I let him go on a few steps in front always within sight line and only if I judge it to be safe, which is usually in places aimed at children so I know their fencing and safety systems have been thought out. But lapses in human judgement can happen like a gate could get left open by a careless employee at a pet farm or other animal enclosure and accidents can happen. So far we've regularly brought him to pet farms, aquariums, the zoo, Fota, and Ailwee caves birds of prey centre. If I needed a working knowledge of all the animals, fish and birds we show him like the way some people were expecting Nebraskian parents to know about Floridian alligators then I'd need to be a zoologist. I'm not. I'm just a parent trying to show my kid interesting things in the world and I trust that the experts who design the enclosures, tanks and resorts do so in a safe way that children can safely enjoy their surroundings.


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  • #292
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Samaris wrote: »
    Irish coastal waters are actually great for sharks, given the wide fetch of the Atlantic, the warm current of the Gulf Stream and the deep ocean shelf nearby. The one thing stopping big sharks from lurking up this way was the temperature, which was just about too cold to interest them. It was always borderline though, and it's steadily moving into their green zone.
    I've kind of wondered why we wouldn't get GWS up around here. When you look at maps they'll quite happily into the northern parts of the pacific ocean right up to alaska. I wonder is it as much to do with sustained overfishing in the atlantic going back a few hundred years and it's impact on the sharks food source as much as anything.


  • #293
    sweetsugar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭sweetsugar


    Dolbert wrote: »
    I suppose I don't see the point of putting the boot in where the only purpose is sneering superiority and cruelty, but hey, that's what the internet does best.

    via 4 Boy's Mother on FB https://www.facebook.com/4BoysMother/timeline

    Thanks for the link and my apologises for my post.
    i didn't realise there was 1 put up
    Bad of me


  • #294
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just saw this pop up on a friend's Facebook feed - Disney are going to put up alligator warning signs.

    http://wfla.com/2016/06/17/disney-to-add-alligator-warning-signs/


  • #295
    retro:electro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    Imagine going to Yosemite national park and there being no "warning bears" signs. Imagine being at a restaurant and there being no "this dish contains peanuts" signs. Imagine a child dying through those circumstances, I'd imagine the responses here would be somewhat different. Yes we all have to take personal responsibility as well, but establishments must put the safety of their customers before any kind of profit and have a level of responsibility and culpability here, and it was up to Disney to have adequate warning signs in place, that did just that, warn. "No swimming" doesn't warn me of any danger, it's just telling me not to swim for whatever the reason being. Disney should have put up signs but didn't want to spoil the magic. Moreover, the water should have been completely fenced off, why tempt people with the magic of the pretty water if nobody is allowed in it, especially if they are gathering you there to watch a movie.


  • #296
    Tipperary Fairy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Tipperary Fairy


    Well as I already asked, but was completely conveniently ignored, what do you think the no swimming sign would be there to mean if not there being some sort of danger from entering the water?


  • #297
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tipperary Fairy wrote: »
    Well as I already asked, but was completely conveniently ignored, what do you think the no swimming sign would be there to mean if not there being some sort of danger from entering the water?

    No swimming doesn't equal no standing in three inches of water on the beach. It wouldn't in my mind and it obviously didn't to visitors in Disney World either. I was at a conference years ago in the UK, where there was a small lake with No Swimming signs. Myself and my friends still took off our shoes and had our feet in the water. Obviously there's no alligators in east England, but to us no swimming meant don't get right into the water and start swimming around, not don't go near the water at all at all. Alligator warning signs would have definitely cleared up any ambiguity in Disney World.


  • #298
    donegal.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭donegal.


    didn't know my dad was a zoologist, learn something everyday.


  • #299
    Tipperary Fairy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Tipperary Fairy


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    No swimming doesn't equal no standing in three inches of water on the beach. It wouldn't in my mind and it obviously didn't to visitors in Disney World either. I was at a conference years ago in the UK, where there was a small lake with No Swimming signs. Myself and my friends still took off our shoes and had our feet in the water. Obviously there's no alligators in east England, but to us no swimming meant don't get right into the water and start swimming around, not don't go near the water at all at all. Alligator warning signs would have definitely cleared up an ambiguity in Disney World.

    You've still not answered the question though


  • #300
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tipperary Fairy wrote: »
    You've still not answered the question though

    I did. No swimming suggests there is a danger from getting into the water and swimming in it. Not standing on the beach with just your feet in the water. Alligator signs would have clarified this. The water is dangerous because of (possibly not limited to) alligators. Then it would be clear that being near the water is dangerous, not just getting right into it and swimming around. No one swims in 6 inches of water.


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  • #301
    Tipperary Fairy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Tipperary Fairy


    So what dangers do you think might exist from swimming in a man made lake that would not occur from being in it but not swimming?


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