Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:24PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That exact reason is what makes them a superior choice to a handgun for home defense. Ease of use for the individual. Easier to aim, recoil management, follow up shot placement. Shooting pistols is difficult and takes practice to be accurate at any range. Rifles are much easier to use, especially in a stressful scenario.

Leading to buying one shooting up the place with little to no training... No problem at all nothing to see here.

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:25PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

They would use PDW type of weapons these days. larger internal Barrel making them shorter than a tradition rifal. Perfect for enclosed spaces. But were going down a rabbit hole will leave it there.

Most forces have gone towards carbines over PDWs, due to their superior characteristics. If you have watched any footage of responders, you would see that they are typically armed with an M-4 variant.

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:27PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Leading to buying one shooting up the place with little to no training... No problem at all nothing to see here.

You are correlating a law abiding citizen with the actions of a determined murderer? You could write speeches for Clinton with that line of reasoning.

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:27PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Most forces have gone towards carbines over PDWs, due to their superior characteristics. If you have watched any footage of responders, you would see that they are typically armed with an M-4 variant.

2 second ago they were running around with pistols because M-4 was to long gonna make up your mind ??

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:27PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You are correlating a law abiding citizen with the actions of a determined murderer? You could write speeches for Clinton with that line of reasoning.

True or Not True ?

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:29PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

2 second ago they were running around with pistols because M-4 was to long gonna make up your mind ??

They are not mutually exclusive, as I clearly stated. An individual will carry a primary carbine/ rifle and a secondary pistol, using the appropriate one depending on circumstance.

Any other willful misinformation you need corrected?

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:30PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

True or Not True ?

Is what true? That an murderer can commit murder if they choose to?

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:30PM

aloyisious wrote: »

Feck the instructor and armourer then

It's a common misunderstanding, one I was guilty of myself until I was put in my place.

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:30PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

They are not mutually exclusive, as I clearly stated. An individual will carry a primary carbine/ rifle and a secondary pistol, using the appropriate one depending on circumstance.

Any other willful misinformation you need corrected?

Who said they did not have a "SECONDARY" firearm that is typically a Pistol. I believe you know what Secondary means ? Generally only used in emergency situations like a “PRIMARY” weapon jam.

Gatling · 14-06-2016 08:31PM

People will always find a way around the rules

For instance you can get a short AR 15 variant essentially a pistol short barrel ,hand guard and no stock so it can't be shouldered like a typical rifle ,
I believe it was Sig USA who came up with a brace to help people who may have suffered a arm or hand disability that would allow the person to securely strap the shortened rifle to there arm and allow them to shoot it while keeping it stable and controlable .
Shooters then realised quickly you had a stock that you could then shoulder your shorten rifle much like a standard ar15 or M4 military variants ,

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:38PM

Gatling wrote: »

People will always find a way around the rules

For instance you can get a short AR 15 variant essentially a pistol short barrel ,hand guard and no stock so it can't be shouldered like a typical rifle ,
I believe it was Sig USA who came up with a brace to help people who may have suffered a arm or hand disability that would allow the person to securely strap the shortened rifle to there arm and allow them to shoot it while keeping it stable and controlable .
Shooters then realised quickly you had a stock that you could then shoulder your shorten rifle much like a standard ar15 or M4 military variants ,

Yes, you can get such pistol variants. Putting a stock on them creates a Short Barreled Rifle, which requires a tax stamp and NFA paperwork to be legal. Those that do so without acquiring said paperwork are breaking the law.

Is there something wrong with having a short barreled rifle?

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:40PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Who said they did not have a "SECONDARY" firearm that is typically a Pistol. I believe you know what Secondary means ? Generally only used in emergency situations like a “PRIMARY” weapon jam.

A secondary can be used in many circumstance beyond a weapon malfunction. I take you speak from a position of personal experience in weapon handling and employment?

Gatling · 14-06-2016 08:44PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Is there something wrong with having a short barreled rifle?

No I was just pointing out how if you say banned long (hate AR ) stoner designed rifle or any previous military use rifle like the m14 now M1 . and said you could have a pistol variant people would still have a way to use one as an SBR by using a brace meant to help shooters with a disability to shoot safely

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 08:45PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So that's a no to providing evidence of refusal of medical treatment as I thought FB lying again.

It. is. legal. to. refuse. medical. treatment. to. a. gay. person. in. Florida.

That is enough.

It. is. legal. to. refuse.

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:47PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

A secondary can be used in many circumstance beyond a weapon malfunction. I take you speak from a position of personal experience in weapon handling and employment?

That old chestnut not trying to close down debate are we ? I did put Generally in my post. Who said it was a secondary weapons only use ? Let me guess they also carry a knife and it's primary reason is to stab people ?

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:48PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It. is. legal. to. refuse. medical. treatment. to. a. gay. person. in. Florida.

That is enough.

It. is. legal. to. refuse.

And who was ? You a bunch of links to this common practice ? Must be hundreds and hundreds of links and news reports went viral surly ?

aloyisious · 14-06-2016 08:48PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It. is. legal. to. refuse. medical. treatment. to. a. gay. person. in. Florida.

That is enough.

It. is. legal. to. refuse.

The Hiv+ Blood issue?

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 08:49PM

Lads - can you please take the gun discussion to a more suitable thread.
It is in very poor taste here.

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Ar-15s are excellent choices for self defense and hunting. Magazine size and cosmetic appearance have no impact on the potential lethality of the bullets. Typical misinformed fear mongering.

AbusesToilets wrote: »

No, a rifle is a much more accurate and stable platform to shoot with. Was there some point you were making there?

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So you see your error. Are you disputing Accuracy and stability are deciding factors in lethality of a weapon in this case ? As that's why you don't see swat teams running around just with pistols out.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That's also a factor if you are a novice the stability and accuracy of the rifle makes a better choice over a pistol. Even highly Trained range shooters would prefer a rifle over a pistol. As I said it's why you don't see swat teams running a round with pistols out.

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Lethality is based off of shot placement and round caliber. Is a shotgun firing 00 shot more or less lethal than a rifle firing 5.56mm?

SWAT teams do utilise pistols on a regular basis. Situation and terrain will dictate weapon usage.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Buckshot range what about 40 yards AR-15 5.56 well accurate beyond that. I don't know of many situations swat would use a pistol only if they could guarantee the person was not armed or 100% guarantee of not wearing body armour.

gandalf wrote: »

The standard AR15 has a muzzle velocity of 975m/s and a range of 400m. It is totally unsuitable for home defense unless you're a hermit with no neighbours.

AbusesToilets wrote: »

So terrible that it or similar carbines are used by Armed Forces across the globe in exactly those environments.

Do have any experience shooting? Shooting an AR style rifle? Shooting a enclosed environment like a house?

I ask, because if you did, you might realise the many advantages of the AR pattern rifle for self defense. Concerns over penetration can be abated with shot placement, ammunition choice and understanding of your surroundings.

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Buckshot is lethally effective out to 100m. Further if you are using slugs.

Sand · 14-06-2016 08:49PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

No, the catholic church teaches dogma based on texts written by drunk and stoned shepherds from 3000 years ago as absolute fact, the only way it works is because modern, enlightened people have chosen to ignore teachings that prescribe that anyone eating shellfish, wearing garments from 2 different fabrics or plant 2 kinds of crop in the same field be stoned to death.
So, not the word of God, more the incoherent ramblings of people who most likely were off their face on something.

But ok, if that's what floats your boat:

I think you might be confusing me with a Catholic. It doesn't float my boat. But if people read through 'texts written by drunk and stoned shepherds from 3000 years ago' and think that it seems valid and they want to identify with their ideas, then okay, that's crazy but that is their cross to bear.

What I don't accept is the idea that you can pick and choose from belief systems like Islam and Catholicism. The whole basis of religious belief is they alone have the word of God, above human revisionism. This is why religion is (incorrectly imo) treated more seriously than any given conspiracy theory.

People who like some aspects of Catholicism, but disagree with others and think they know better than God...well, they're not Catholics by definition because they consider themselves smarter than God and all his prophets. People who pretend to be Catholic whilst actually disagreeing with the 'texts written by drunk and stoned shepherds from 3000 years ago' are just giving cover to the real fanatics. Because if they are nice people, then then the religious belief system thought up by ' drunk and stoned shepherds from 3000 years ago' must be nice and relevant too.

It isnt - the nice people don't believe in it. They believe in something else, but they cant put the comfort blanket aside yet.

Jack Killian · 14-06-2016 08:50PM

wakka12 wrote: »

Im not sure what the actual laws are but all I know is that if a dying gay person was refused medical treatment for being gay in usa there would be a never ending media frenzy

Women refused life-saving treatment in Ireland.

Salvita I think her name was.

Jack Killian · 14-06-2016 08:51PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Lads - can you please take the gun discussion to a more suitable thread.
It is in very poor taste here.

So we're only allowed to surmise re the motivation and not the method ?

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:51PM

Jack Killian wrote: »

Women refused life-saving treatment in Ireland.

Salvita I think her name was.

savita halappanavar ?

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:52PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That old chestnut not trying to close down debate are we ? I did put Generally in my post. Who said it was a secondary weapons only use ? Let me guess they also carry a knife and it's primary reason is to stab people ?

So, you have no point to make, beyond putting forth inaccurate statements?

Gatling · 14-06-2016 08:52PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Lads - can you please take the gun discussion to a more suitable thread.
It is in very poor taste here.

Actually it's add to the discussion adding the pro's and cons of different firearms and calibre from both sides

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:53PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

So, you have no point to make, beyond putting forth inaccurate statements?

:pac::pac:

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:55PM

Sand wrote: »

I think you might be confusing me with a Catholic. It doesn't float my boat. But if people read through 'texts written by drunk and stoned shepherds from 3000 years ago' and think that it seems valid and they want to identify with their ideas, then okay, that's crazy but that is their cross to bear.

What I don't accept is the idea that you can pick and choose from belief systems like Islam and Catholicism. The whole basis of religious belief is they alone have the word of God, above human revisionism. This is why religion is (incorrectly imo) treated more seriously than any given conspiracy theory.

People who like some aspects of Catholicism, but disagree with others and think they know better than God...well, they're not Catholics by definition because they consider themselves smarter than God and all his prophets. People who pretend to be Catholic whilst actually disagreeing with the 'texts written by drunk and stoned shepherds from 3000 years ago' are just giving cover to the real fanatics. Because if they are nice people, then then the religious belief system thought up by ' drunk and stoned shepherds from 3000 years ago' must be nice and relevant too.

It isnt - the nice people don't believe in it. They believe in something else, but they cant put the comfort blanket aside yet.

Those following the creed of ISIS and their ilk hold themselves to be the only true adherents of the Islamic faith. Given the that the Qu'ran is the literal word of Allah and that it lays forth the laws governing the faithful, they are not wrong.

You are either a Muslim who follows the rules set forth in the Qu'ran, or not a true Muslim. It doesn't allow for interpretation.

Sand · 14-06-2016 08:55PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Lads - can you please take the gun discussion to a more suitable thread.
It is in very poor taste here.

Can you stop with the backseat moderation?

I'm disinterested in the gun characteristics, but it is relevant given gun control is a major factor and its debatable at least if weapons like the AR-15 should be available for over the counter sale like it was for the gunman in this particular case.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 08:55PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

And who was ? You a bunch of links to this common practice ? Must be hundreds and hundreds of links and news reports went viral surly ?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely not understand that there are parts of the U.S. where it is perfectly legal to refuse to treat people due to their sexual orientation?

Studies have found LGBT individuals and people living with HIV/AIDS may be refused care or treated in a discriminatory manner because of their sexual orientation, gender identity, or HIV status. Approximately 8% of LGB individuals, nearly 27% of transgender and gender-nonconforming individuals, and almost 20% of HIV-positive individuals report being denied needed health care outright.
LGBT people and individuals living with HIV/AIDS report that health care professionals have used harsh language towards them, refused to touch them or used excessive precaution, or blamed the individuals for their health status. The numbers are especially high for transgender and gender-nonconforming individuals, with over 20% reporting that they were subjected to harsh or abusive language by a health care professional and were blamed for their health problems.
Some LGBT individuals also report being excessively questioned about their sexuality or unnecessarily examined by health care providers even when their sexual orientation or gender identity was completely unrelated to the reason for their visit. For example, a participant in a recent study on LGBT health reported, “I went in for a broken hand and was grilled about my sexuality for ten minutes by the emergency room doctor. It was very frustrating and embarrassing because I felt like there must be something wrong, I’m not giving a good enough answer.” A transgender patient reported seeking treatment for a sore throat, and being “forced to have a pelvic exam.” According to the patient, “The doctor invited others to look at me while he examined me and talked to them about my genitals.” Such unnecessary questioning and examination is discriminatory and harms patient care.

http://nwlc.org/resources/health-care-refusals-harm-patients-threat-lgbt-people-and-individuals-living-hivaids/

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:57PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely not understand that there are parts of the U.S. where it is perfectly legal to refuse to treat people due to their sexual orientation?

http://nwlc.org/resources/health-care-refusals-harm-patients-threat-lgbt-people-and-individuals-living-hivaids/

So Again no one was Refused life saving medical attention.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 08:58PM

Gatling wrote: »

Actually it's add to the discussion adding the pro's and cons of different firearms and calibre from both sides

I disagree.

I have just come from a vigil where the names of 49 murder victims were read out to find the merits of various weapons being disgusted in great detail.

It does not add to the discussion.
It is in extremely poor taste and grossly insensitive.

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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