Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 07:27PM

gandalf wrote: »

Coming back to this late. No I am specifically talking about the semi automatic Ar15 he had. It can fire 45 high velocity rounds a minute and takes 30 round magazines. The only people who should have legal access to weapons like this are the police and military. There is no justification in having a weapon of this type for self defence or hunting purposes.

Ar-15s are excellent choices for self defense and hunting. Magazine size and cosmetic appearance have no impact on the potential lethality of the bullets. Typical misinformed fear mongering.

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 07:32PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Ar-15s are excellent choices for self defense and hunting. Magazine size and cosmetic appearance have no impact on the potential lethality of the bullets. Typical misinformed fear mongering.

So a handgun is as accurate as a rifle now ...

ceadaoin. · 14-06-2016 07:35PM

aloyisious wrote: »

Sky reports the police as saying the Walmart hostages are safe and the suspect was shot dead. Re the Orlando club shooting rifle, the same Sky news programme has an item on the AR 15 is the most popular weapon in the US, that the cost of it is around US $1,500 and there is NO waiting (security/background check) period in Florida for anyone purchasing one, so if you're seen as OK by the dealer, put your cash on the counter and walk out with one.

The guy who sold him the guns was on CNN yesterday. He said he did perform background checks (which are mandatory apparently, despite what sky news says) on Mateen, and nothing was flagged up.

Authorities said both were bought legally, even though the FBI investigated Mateen for 10 months in 2013 and 2014 over allegations he had terrorist ties. He was placed on a watch list but then removed after the FBI determined there was nothing to the claims.

Henson said Mateen bought the two weapons within the last two weeks — days apart — and passed mandated background checks before he picked them up.

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 07:36PM

aloyisious wrote: »

Sky reports the police as saying the Walmart hostages are safe and the suspect was shot dead. Re the Orlando club shooting rifle, the same Sky news programme has an item on the AR 15 is the most popular weapon in the US, that the cost of it is around US $1,500 and there is NO waiting (security/background check) period in Florida for anyone purchasing one, so if you're seen as OK by the dealer, put your cash on the counter and walk out with one.

The incidences annually for crimes committed with rifles are fractions of 1%. As Manic alluded to, this is probably the first case in recent memory of a shooting utilising a legally held rifle.

Sandy Hook and San Bernardino involved stolen/ illegally held firearms.

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 07:37PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So a handgun is as accurate as a rifle now ...

No, a rifle is a much more accurate and stable platform to shoot with. Was there some point you were making there?

aloyisious · 14-06-2016 07:39PM

RoboKlopp wrote: »

This story is getting more weird. Just reading he claimed to be a member of Hezbollah as well as claiming links to Al Queda. Then he claims links to ISIS.

Obviously not a clue as both the former oppose ISIS afaik.

I agree. I don't imagine there is a connect, except maybe to cause confusion and slow up investigation into his background.

Hizbollah (roughly translates as Army of God/Allah) is directly linked to the Iranian Govt and Iranian branch of the Muslim Shia religion, getting it's religious directives from the head of the Iranian branch of Islam, the Shia. Said Mullah also has supremacy over the Iranian President and Govt.

Al-Queda is alleged to be funded by the Sunni branch of Muslim religion (read Saudi Arabia and it's gulf neighbours).

If he was radicalized over the net, the O/P's may have kept their group identity quiet, with Uncle Sam listening in the background.

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 07:42PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

No, a rifle is a much more accurate and stable platform to shoot with. Was there some point you were making there?

So you see your error. Are you disputing Accuracy and stability are deciding factors in lethality of a weapon in this case ? As that's why you don't see swat teams running around just with pistols out.

Gatling · 14-06-2016 07:48PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

No, a rifle is a much more accurate and stable platform to shoot with. Was there some point you were making there?

Actually it may depend on the type of training and how competent a shooter is .

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 07:51PM

Gatling wrote: »

Actually it may depend on the type of training and how competent a shooter is .

That's also a factor if you are a novice the stability and accuracy of the rifle makes a better choice over a pistol. Even highly Trained range shooters would prefer a rifle over a pistol. As I said it's why you don't see swat teams running a round with pistols out.

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 07:56PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So you see your error. Are you disputing Accuracy and stability are deciding factors in lethality of a weapon in this case ? As that's why you don't see swat teams running around just with pistols out.

Lethality is based off of shot placement and round caliber. Is a shotgun firing 00 shot more or less lethal than a rifle firing 5.56mm?

SWAT teams do utilise pistols on a regular basis. Situation and terrain will dictate weapon usage.

gandalf · 14-06-2016 08:00PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Ar-15s are excellent choices for self defense and hunting. Magazine size and cosmetic appearance have no impact on the potential lethality of the bullets. Typical misinformed fear mongering.

Not fear mongering at all. It is a dreadful weapon for home defense. It's muzzle velocity will mean bullets fired from it would pass through walls. Whilst you may get the "bad guy" the potential to injure unseen persons in other rooms or the next house is there.

As for hunting if you need 30 rounds to kill one animal you should really take up another pursuit

Little CuChulainn · 14-06-2016 08:01PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Ar-15s are excellent choices for self defense and hunting. Magazine size and cosmetic appearance have no impact on the potential lethality of the bullets. Typical misinformed fear mongering.

What self defence situation do you see the AR15 being ideal for? Are we talking zombie apocalypse or a purge type situation?

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:05PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Lethality is based off of shot placement and round caliber. Is a shotgun firing 00 shot more or less lethal than a rifle firing 5.56mm?

SWAT teams do utilise pistols on a regular basis. Situation and terrain will dictate weapon usage.

Buckshot range what about 40 yards AR-15 5.56 well accurate beyond that. I don't know of many situations swat would use a pistol only if they could guarantee the person was not armed or 100% guarantee of not wearing body armour.

stoplooklisten · 14-06-2016 08:07PM

The Orlando gunman's wife has told federal agents she tried to talk her husband out of carrying out the attack, NBC News has learned.

Omar Mateen's wife, Noor Zahi Salman, told the FBI she was with him when he bought ammunition and a holster, several officials familiar with the case said. She told the FBI that she once drove him to the gay nightclub, Pulse, because he wanted to scope it out.

....
Authorities are considering filing criminal charges against Noor for failing to tell them what she knew before the brutal attack, law enforcement officials say, but no decision has been mad

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/clinton-calls-out-trump-s-lies-after-orlando-attack-n592151

gandalf · 14-06-2016 08:08PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Buckshot range what about 40 yards AR-15 5.56 well accurate beyond that. I don't know of many situations swat would use a pistol only if they could guarantee the person was not armed or 100% guarantee of not wearing body armour.

The standard AR15 has a muzzle velocity of 975m/s and a range of 400m. It is totally unsuitable for home defense unless you're a hermit with no neighbours.

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:09PM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

The Orlando gunman's wife has told federal agents she tried to talk her husband out of carrying out the attack, NBC News has learned.

Omar Mateen's wife, Noor Zahi Salman, told the FBI she was with him when he bought ammunition and a holster, several officials familiar with the case said. She told the FBI that she once drove him to the gay nightclub, Pulse, because he wanted to scope it out.

....
Authorities are considering filing criminal charges against Noor for failing to tell them what she knew before the brutal attack, law enforcement officials say, but no decision has been mad

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/clinton-calls-out-trump-s-lies-after-orlando-attack-n592151

Full force of the law. It's saying this could have been stopped or at least mitigated disgusting.

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:11PM

gandalf wrote: »

The standard AR15 has a muzzle velocity of 975m/s and a range of 400m. It is totally unsuitable for home defense unless you're a hermit with no neighbours.

Or in the Purge or a Zombie apocalypse.

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:11PM

gandalf wrote: »

The standard AR15 has a muzzle velocity of 975m/s and a range of 400m. It is totally unsuitable for home defense unless you're a hermit with no neighbours.

So terrible that it or similar carbines are used by Armed Forces across the globe in exactly those environments.

Do have any experience shooting? Shooting an AR style rifle? Shooting a enclosed environment like a house?

I ask, because if you did, you might realise the many advantages of the AR pattern rifle for self defense. Concerns over penetration can be abated with shot placement, ammunition choice and understanding of your surroundings.

gandalf · 14-06-2016 08:11PM

It's that's true about his wife she should be charged as an accessory to mass murder and have the book thrown at her.

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:12PM

gandalf wrote: »

The standard AR15 has a muzzle velocity of 975m/s and a range of 400m. It is totally unsuitable for home defense unless you're a hermit with no neighbours.

Buckshot is lethally effective out to 100m. Further if you are using slugs.

Jimmy Garlic · 14-06-2016 08:15PM

I am pretty sure suicide vests, gym bags with IEDs in them and car bombs are illegal almost everywhere. Doesn't stop terrorists from using them. Same goes for guns, there will always be guns available somewhere, legal or illegal.

gandalf · 14-06-2016 08:15PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

So terrible that it or similar carbines are used by Armed Forces across the globe in exactly those environments.

Do have any experience shooting? Shooting an AR style rifle? Shooting a enclosed environment like a house?

I ask, because if you did, you might realise the many advantages of the AR pattern rifle for self defense. Concerns over penetration can be abated with shot placement, ammunition choice and understanding of your surroundings.

In the hands of a highly trained military personnel you are probably right but my point is that Johnny Civilian will not have that training (and down the gun range does not count as appropriate training).

Yes I have fired hand guns and sub machine guns. I have never fired a semi automatic rifle.

Snickers Man · 14-06-2016 08:16PM

Gatling wrote: »

Here .
Firearms license ,permission from your local chief superintendent .
Back round check
Ammunition limits ,
Gun safe ,
Wired alarm
Definitely can't carry openly in public
Club membership if target shooting (open to correction )

US
Cash or credit card depending on state law in a coupe of days wait .
In some states you can Overt carry ie sling it over your shoulder and walk into a cafe or store with no issues

That's the one I was looking for in bold.
As long as you can only load it up and shoot it in a controlled environment like a gun club and the authorities know you have it and where you keep it I'm fine with you shooting inanimate targets to your heart's content. It's a free country after all.
Enjoy!

It's the numbskulls who say they "gotta have it for protection" that get me. Fortunately, such people seem to be concentrated in the US not here.
How's all that protection working for them?

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:17PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Buckshot range what about 40 yards AR-15 5.56 well accurate beyond that. I don't know of many situations swat would use a pistol only if they could guarantee the person was not armed or 100% guarantee of not wearing body armour.

Clearing narrow spaces that where a rifle would be impractical, or utilising a shield, as was evidenced during the Paris shootings, when the Gendarmarie took down the shooter in the store.

gandalf · 14-06-2016 08:18PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Buckshot is lethally effective out to 100m. Further if you are using slugs.

At around half the muzzle velocity of the AR15 so it's ability to pass through walls etc is extremely diminished.

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:20PM

gandalf wrote: »

In the hands of a highly trained military personnel you are probably right but my point is that Johnny Civilian will not have that training (and down the gun range does not count as appropriate training).

Yes I have fired hand guns and sub machine guns. I have never fired a semi automatic rifle.

That exact reason is what makes them a superior choice to a handgun for home defense. Ease of use for the individual. Easier to aim, recoil management, follow up shot placement. Shooting pistols is difficult and takes practice to be accurate at any range. Rifles are much easier to use, especially in a stressful scenario.

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:21PM

aloyisious wrote: »

Eh, in so far as they both have rifled barrels, yes. Handguns are usually accurate up to approx 15 yards for your average user, 20 Yds if you've good with a good grip and eyesight. Beyond that, you may as well be throwing a brick at the target.

The shooter is also part of the true assurance of accuracy. Good grip reduces recoil movement of the weapon, good 20/20 eyesight in both eyes is a godsend.

Rifles are a whole different thing altogether. They are long distance killing weapons. The magazine issue is because some firms make larger capacity magazines than the standard size usually supplied with a rifle. The larger mags are just handy if you want to reduce mag-changing time in target practice or if you're using the rifle fully auto for supression.

Modern assault rifles sights are generally designed for up to 2 Hundred Yds on single, non-auto fire. Older bolt-action ones have longer range. Rifle bullets, after they leave the barrel, travel in a straight line for a short distance only then travel upwards at a very slight slope before coming back down over a few hundred feet to travel horizontal to the target.

Bullets don't rise. You elevate the barrel to effect accurate fire at range, which causes the arced trajectory.

gandalf · 14-06-2016 08:21PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That exact reason is what makes them a superior choice to a handgun for home defense. Ease of use for the individual. Easier to aim, recoil management, follow up shot placement. Shooting pistols is difficult and takes practice to be accurate at any range. Rifles are much easier to use, especially in a stressful scenario.

You really don't get it do you. So effectively you endorse a spray and pray philosophy :rolleyes:

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 08:23PM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Clearing narrow spaces that where a rifle would be impractical, or utilising a shield, as was evidenced during the Paris shootings, when the Gendarmarie took done the the shooter in the store.

They would use PDW type of weapons these days. larger internal Barrel making them shorter than a tradition rifal. Perfect for enclosed spaces. But were going down a rabbit hole will leave it there.

AbusesToilets · 14-06-2016 08:23PM

gandalf wrote: »

You really don't get it do you. So effectively you endorse a spray and pray philosophy :rolleyes:

Accurate shot placement somehow becomes "Spray and Pray"? You're choosing what to read from my statements.

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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