Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

stoplooklisten · 14-06-2016 05:33PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This popped up in my newsfeed.

Perhaps it will show what Christianity has to do with this.
These laws were made by Christians.

https://www.facebook.com/johann.koehle/posts/238497983199697

Now some here are dismissive of the existence of homophobia in the West.
Others question whether any general, everyday, institutionalised homophobia could have had any influence on the murderer.
And then there are those who don't think it's a big issue just a bunch of gays getting their tantrum on.

So let's look at the reality of those who have so far survived being shot:

A person could have gone for a night out, been shot by a nutter, be refused medical treatment, and lose their job - but hey... not because they are gay right... well, not have been shot anyway...that could have been for any reason...

Homophobia is real.
It has not gone away.
There are more ways to destroy a persons life than to take it.

Sorry but that is such a crock of sh1t. Nobody was refused treatment.

Manic Moran · 14-06-2016 05:35PM

gandalf wrote: »

As you say we don't have a history of mass shootings in Ireland but the US do and the high body count ones have a common denominator and it is the use of high velocity military spec semi automatic rifles that can take large capacity magazines. It stands to reason that they should be highly restricted for sale.

Prior to Orlando, I believe the largest mass shooting in the US was Virginia Tech. The man used a pistol. Actually, as I look back, it seems that pistols are actually the most common weapon in mass shootings.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 05:56PM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Sorry but that is such a crock of sh1t. Nobody was refused treatment.

How do you know? And the point isn't whether they were - the point is whether legally people can be refused medical treatment on the grounds of sexual orientation.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Link to the laws allowing this thanks in advance.

This lists the States where it is currently illegal to refuse health care on the grounds of sexual orientation as the list is shorter (22 States). Discrimination is legal in Florida.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/health-care-antidiscrimination-laws-protecting-32296.html

This is the Bill HB 401 - it comes into force on 1st July which 'strengthens' the right to discriminate.
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Documents/loaddoc.aspx?FileName=_h0401__.docx&DocumentType=Bill&BillNumber=0401&Session=2016

dav3 · 14-06-2016 05:58PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

What on earth has Christianity have to do with an Islamist assault on a gay night club. For goodness sake have a little respect for the deceased and stop with the whataboutery.

Create another thread to talk about Christian extremism, this is not the place. It comes across like your using the tragedy to push an agenda.

If the agenda is wiping out religion in Ireland, especially christianity, then sign me up.

You would have to question the agenda of people who only get upset over these tragedies when the perpetrator is of a certain religion or skin colour.

Did religion play a part in this? Perhaps not.

There are certain similarities to Anders Breivik. Male with right wing leanings, with a mental illness and access to guns that no person should own went on a killing spree. This time it's an American citizen who is also a homophobe carrying out a hate crime against gay people. He used the same gun that was used to slaughter innocent children at Sandy Hook, so perhaps there are similarities there too.

K.Flyer · 14-06-2016 05:58PM

gandalf wrote: »

...

There is no way the Americans will ever be weaned off their gun fetishism but it is logical to me that banning civilian access to weapons like the AR15 and other semi-automatic rifles would be a good start.

The problem with this notion is that you would be banning law abiding citizens from having arms for their own reasons.
Anyone preparing to get ready for an assault like we have just seen will obtain whatever they require by whatever means, Legally or Illegally.
Just because you don't understand anyone's reason for having a legitimate interest and keeping arms, high powered or otherwise, doesn't make it wrong to have them.
Ireland has some of the strictest gun laws which are getting tighter by the year. This only affects those who have no wish to harm anyone, but have a legitimate interest in firearms.
You don't think for a minute that any of the recent shootings around Dublin were carried out with legally held firearms do you.

Jack Killian · 14-06-2016 06:01PM

K.Flyer wrote: »

The problem with this notion is that you would be banning law abiding citizens from having arms for their own reasons.

No citizen needs an assault rifle.

FFS the law even prevents you from buying 2 packs of Nurofen or Migraleve even though you might well need it, in order to supposedly protect the greater good.

Those who want assault rifles can hire them for a day at the local assault rifle course surrounded by 500 security guards with bigger ones if they want.

ceadaoin. · 14-06-2016 06:02PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This popped up in my newsfeed.

Perhaps it will show what Christianity has to do with this.
These laws were made by Christians.

https://www.facebook.com/johann.koehle/posts/238497983199697

Now some here are dismissive of the existence of homophobia in the West.
Others question whether any general, everyday, institutionalised homophobia could have had any influence on the murderer.
And then there are those who don't think it's a big issue just a bunch of gays getting their tantrum on.

So let's look at the reality of those who have so far survived being shot:

A person could have gone for a night out, been shot by a nutter, be refused medical treatment, and lose their job - but hey... not because they are gay right... well, not have been shot anyway...that could have been for any reason...

Homophobia is real.
It has not gone away.
There are more ways to destroy a persons life than to take it.

I presume the job thing is because Florida, like the majority of the U.S., is an "at will" state, meaning that an employer can terminate employment without notice for any reason. "I don't like your shoes" is grounds for being fired. It's a bit of a stretch to say gay people are being targeted by that law. Everyone is at risk of losing their job at any time, for no good reason.

I hadn't heard about anyone being refused medical treatment. Do you have a link about this? On what grounds can they be refused?

Edit: just saw the link you posted re healthcare. That shouldn't be allowed.

Snickers Man · 14-06-2016 06:03PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

It is legal in Ireland to own and use an AR15. I know a few people with them. You need a restricted licence for them but they are not banned here.

I'm interested. What are the restrictions on owning, and presumably using, an AR 15 in Ireland that would not typically apply in the US?

aloyisious · 14-06-2016 06:04PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

What on earth has Christianity have to do with an Islamist assault on a gay night club. For goodness sake have a little respect for the deceased and stop with the whataboutery.

Create another thread to talk about Christian extremism, this is not the place. It comes across like your using the tragedy to push an agenda.

If this is in response to my mention of the JW link alongside the others, please excuse my error. I did not mean or intend it to be seen in the light above. I have edited my post referencing the link to point out that it NOT a Muslim or Christian religious publication. I apologize for any offence I caused.

Ghost Train · 14-06-2016 06:12PM

I see sky news reporting a hostage situation in a Walmart in Texas. Hopefully not anything as serious but developing story

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 06:12PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How do you know? And the point isn't whether they were - the point is whether legally people can be refused medical treatment on the grounds of sexual orientation.

This lists the States where it is currently illegal to refuse health care on the grounds of sexual orientation as the list is shorter (22 States). Discrimination is legal in Florida.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/health-care-antidiscrimination-laws-protecting-32296.html

This is the Bill HB 401 - it comes into force on 1st July which 'strengthens' the right to discriminate.
http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Documents/loaddoc.aspx?FileName=_h0401__.docx&DocumentType=Bill&BillNumber=0401&Session=2016

Someone already explained about jobs everyone is at risk. I'm sure you can link to this common practice of LGBT being routinely refused life saving medical treatment ? And to be fair has nothing to do with this case as it would have been all over the news if someone was refused. Agendas already taking over from a terrible event.

K.Flyer · 14-06-2016 06:13PM

Jack Killian wrote: »

No citizen needs an assault rifle.

Nobody Needs a road going vehicle that can travel at more than twice the speed limit that can cause carnage if it went out of control at such speeds either.
In all the years of the troubles and recent London bombings what was the weapon of choice for those who wanted to create carnage. It wasn't high powered assault weapons.
People who want to do bad will do bad, legitimately restricting access to weapons doesn't stop them.

Samaris · 14-06-2016 06:13PM

K.Flyer wrote: »

You don't think for a minute that any of the recent shootings around Dublin were carried out with legally held firearms do you.

Oddly enough, they were probably legally held -somewhere- before they were "acquired". The easier it is to acquire heavy firepower legally, the easier it is to acquire it illegally too.

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 06:14PM

Ghost Train wrote: »

I see sky news reporting a hostage situation in a Walmart in Texas. Hopefully not anything as serious but developing story

Suspect is a Somalian man apparently

K.Flyer · 14-06-2016 06:17PM

Samaris wrote: »

Oddly enough, they were probably legally held -somewhere- before they were "acquired". The easier it is to acquire heavy firepower legally, the easier it is to acquire it illegally too.

I can guarantee you that if every single legally and illegally held firearm in Ireland was destroyed and banned in the morning. By the following week the criminals would be fully armed again.

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 06:19PM

K.Flyer wrote: »

I can guarantee you that if every single legally and illegally held firearm in Ireland was destroyed and banned in the morning. By the following week the criminals would be fully armed again.

And ?

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 06:20PM

K.Flyer wrote: »

I can guarantee you that if every single legally and illegally held firearm in Ireland was destroyed and banned in the morning. By the following week the criminals would be fully armed again.

So easier to just not make any laws is that what you're saying? Australia and England show that strict gun laws work.

Grayson · 14-06-2016 06:22PM

K.Flyer wrote: »

I can guarantee you that if every single legally and illegally held firearm in Ireland was destroyed and banned in the morning. By the following week the criminals would be fully armed again.

So? It doesn't mean that we should hand them guns. And in this case it's a mass shooting. It's not like any old psycho can rock on down to the local criminal hotspot and buy an assault rifle with a few hundred rounds of ammunition.

Grayson · 14-06-2016 06:23PM

The man speaks sense.

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 06:29PM

Damn Would have though If it was common practice to refuse LGBT life saving medical treatment I would have been showed with links by now. Is FB telling porkies ?

wakka12 · 14-06-2016 06:34PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Damn Would have though If it was common practice to refuse LGBT life saving medical treatment I would have been showed with links by now. Is FB telling porkies ?

Im not sure what the actual laws are but all I know is that if a dying gay person was refused medical treatment for being gay in usa there would be a never ending media frenzy

K.Flyer · 14-06-2016 06:34PM

wakka12 wrote: »

So easier to just not make any laws is that what you're saying? Australia and England show that strict gun laws work.

That is not what I am saying. People who want to commit atrocities don't obey the law. Ban all the firearms you want. If these people want to create havoc and kill people, they will just find another way of doing it.

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 06:37PM

K.Flyer wrote: »

That is not what I am saying. People who want to commit atrocities don't obey the law. Ban all the firearms you want. If these people want to create havoc and kill people, they will just find another way of doing it.

Exactly, should we make sure everyone has a Knife in case a criminal has one logic ? Or a sword or a bat or whatever. Gun because criminals can have a gun logic is stupidity of the highest order.

20Cent · 14-06-2016 06:38PM

K.Flyer wrote: »

That is not what I am saying. People who want to commit atrocities don't obey the law. Ban all the firearms you want. If these people want to create havoc and kill people, they will just find another way of doing it.

Buying weapons on the black market complicates things for the perpetrator an additional set of ways to be caught. Who knows the seller might even tip off the police if they suspect their to be used for terrorism.

Grayson · 14-06-2016 06:49PM

20Cent wrote: »

Buying weapons on the black market complicates things for the perpetrator an additional set of ways to be caught. Who knows the seller might even tip off the police if they suspect their to be used for terrorism.

Yeah And as I mentioned, where exactly do you buy them? I know a bloke who sells weed, that's about it. If I wanted to get a gun to commit a massacre it'd be a long hard slog. I could try the dark web but what are my chances of getting a gun shipped to me, especially with ammo. And even if I got a gun, it'd be a small one because the chances of getting an assault rifle into the country are slim as ****. Finally I'd probably have to pay a ****ing fortune for it.

If I was a criminal who wanted it to rob people it'd be a bit easier since I'm assuming I'd have contacts. but it'd also be risky and costly. I'd only get them if I really needed them and they'd be worth their weight in gold. I certainly couldn't get a gun and use it to knock over the local shop.

In the US however there are loads of guns floating around so you can get shot by a junkie. Pretty much any criminal can get a gun. Here it's only the career criminals in gangs. You need to be part of a larger enterprise because only they have the financial resources and contacts to get them.

Bannasidhe · 14-06-2016 07:03PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Someone already explained about jobs everyone is at risk. I'm sure you can link to this common practice of LGBT being routinely refused life saving medical treatment ? And to be fair has nothing to do with this case as it would have been all over the news if someone was refused. Agendas already taking over from a terrible event.

Do you actually believe there is any form for discrimination against people on the grounds of sexual orientation in any part of the U.S.?

As for agendas - since people were screaming about Muslim extremism from the get go we can safely say this has never been an agenda free zone.

Do you only object when it is a gay agenda?

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 07:07PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you actually believe there is any form for discrimination against people on the grounds of sexual orientation in any part of the U.S.?

As for agendas - since people were screaming about Muslim extremism from the get go we can safely say this has never been an agenda free zone.

Do you only object when it is a gay agenda?

So that's a no to providing evidence of refusal of medical treatment as I thought FB lying again.

Gatling · 14-06-2016 07:24PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

I'm interested. What are the restrictions on owning, and presumably using, an AR 15 in Ireland that would not typically apply in the US?

Here .
Firearms license ,permission from your local chief superintendent .
Back round check
Ammunition limits ,
Gun safe ,
Wired alarm
Definitely can't carry openly in public
Club membership if target shooting (open to correction )

US
Cash or credit card depending on state law in a coupe of days wait .
In some states you can Overt carry ie sling it over your shoulder and walk into a cafe or store with no issues

14-06-2016 07:25PM

This story is getting more weird. Just reading he claimed to be a member of Hezbollah as well as claiming links to Al Queda. Then he claims links to ISIS.

Obviously not a clue as both the former oppose ISIS afaik.

aloyisious · 14-06-2016 07:26PM

Ghost Train wrote: »

I see sky news reporting a hostage situation in a Walmart in Texas. Hopefully not anything as serious but developing story

Sky reports the police as saying the Walmart hostages are safe and the suspect was shot dead. Re the Orlando club shooting rifle, the same Sky news programme has an item on the AR 15 is the most popular weapon in the US, that the cost of it is around US $1,500 and there is NO waiting (security/background check) period in Florida for anyone purchasing one, so if you're seen as OK by the dealer, put your cash on the counter and walk out with one.

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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