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Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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Comments

  • #1772
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    So am I. So don't contract me when I try to keep an open mind, please.

    What does contract mean to you in this context? You had an absurd hypothetical approach called. A refusal to face facts isn't having an open mind.


  • #1773
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    What does contract mean to you in this context? You had an absurd hypothetical approach called. A refusal to face facts isn't having an open mind.

    :rolleyes: Ever heard of "autocorrect" ? It screws up sometimes and jumps to conclusions.


  • #1774
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Ever heard of "autocorrect" ? It screws up sometimes and jumps to conclusions.

    Indeed it does. So what were you trying to type?


  • #1775
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,457 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    The thing is though, unless he was dribbling and spouting nonsense, how would you know that he was going to do something like this when he was buying the gun?

    If there were background checks and psychological tests, he probably would still have gotten this gun. If there was a waiting period for getting these guns, all that would have happened would be that the attack would have taken place a few weeks later.

    It's impossible to be psychic and know if someone is going to go on a killing spree.

    So your other option is to ban guns. That's not a runner in America. It's too ingrained in their culture.

    Banning guns punishes law abiding gun owners unfairly, hunters, target shooters, pest control, self-defence etc..
    Kind of like Trump banning Muslims as this would be unfair to law abiding Muslims.

    Coming back to this late. No I am specifically talking about the semi automatic Ar15 he had. It can fire 45 high velocity rounds a minute and takes 30 round magazines. The only people who should have legal access to weapons like this are the police and military. There is no justification in having a weapon of this type for self defence or hunting purposes.


  • #1776
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Indeed it does. So what were you trying to type?

    contradict


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  • #1777
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    contradict

    You will find that you will be contradicted if what you are saying doesn't start by facing the reality of things.


  • #1778
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    gandalf wrote: »
    Coming back to this late. No I am specifically talking about the semi automatic Ar15 he had. It can fire 45 high velocity rounds a minute and takes 30 round magazines. The only people who should have legal access to weapons like this are the police and military. There is no justifaction in having avwrapon of this type for self defence or hunting purposes.

    What happens if you get charged by a heard of zombies while shooting mice ? You would need more than a .22 to equal the ground no .


  • #1779
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    You will find that you will be contradicted if what you are saying doesn't start by facing the reality of things.

    Argument lost.... Good job.


  • #1780
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    You will find that you will be contradicted if what you are saying doesn't start by facing the reality of things.

    If that happens then I'd expect it.

    I notice you said "the reality of things" rather than the "facts". I wonder why.


  • #1781
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,457 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    What happens if you get charged by a heard of zombies while shooting mice ? You would need more than a .22 to equal the ground no .

    LOL this is the problem some Americans would say this to you and actually be serious.

    There is no way the Americans will ever be weaned off their gun fetishism but it is logical to me that banning civilian access to weapons like the AR15 and other semi-automatic rifles would be a good start.


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  • #1782
    dav3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    jmayo wrote: »
    Yes religion is a problem, but throwing out that mantra everytime a devout muslim goes out and slaughters non believers and non devout muslims in the name of islam is frankly grating at this stage.

    To me it is just pure whataboutery.

    Yes we can all agree that all religions have problems and can cause huge problems, but why the feck is it so hard for some to just admit that islam is in a different league to the rest.

    To bring this some to the current week, the argument "shure aren't all religions bad" is akin to saying that Irish soccer fans are no better than English fans, because Irish fans drink too much like their English counterparts.

    As we are Irish people on an Irish forum, we can't talk about religion without looking at the effects that it has had on our own country.
    You can't say 'hey guys look over here, look at the terrible things this religion is doing thousands of miles away from us', without looking closer to home first.

    Catholicism has destroyed more lives in this country and will continue to destroy more lives in this country than all the other religions combined. There is no place for christianity in this country, there is no place for islam in this country, there is no place for any religion in this country.

    The hypocrisy that I'm seeing in this thread is staggering. The largest opposition to same sex marriage was the catholic church, the largest opposition to repealing the 8th will be the catholic church. People who were opposed to same sex marriage are now rallying around the LGBT community because they feel it gives them a free swing at another religion or someone with dark skin.

    When tragedies like this happen it appears that some people are obsessed with the religion and skin colour of the perpetrator.

    Take this thread as an example.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99838918

    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/three-dead-after-gunman-opens-fire-at-biker-concert-34737605.html

    A neo-nazi goes on a killing spree in Austria. This mass shooting only happened a couple of weeks ago...zero replies.


  • #1783
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    jmayo wrote: »
    Even then I am not sure if he ever gave his religion as reason for attack ?

    He explicitly cited his Christianity as one of his prime motivating factors.
    Yes we can all agree that all religions have problems and can cause huge problems, but why the feck is it so hard for some to just admit that islam is in a different league to the rest.

    You're the one who asked about what other religions have done. I explicitly said Islam is by far the worst. And I don't know why other people find it so hard to admit that Islam is in a different league to the rest. Probably because the muslim people they have met, particularly in the west have been extremely nice and tolerant. Probably because they've ignored the people who were raised muslim, and rejected Islam, and who ran from oppressive Islamic countries, like many LGBT former muslims, and female former muslims, and intellectual former muslims who often say that there are grave and serious problems with Islam. And also probably because they believe that minorities, as muslims are in the western world, are deserving of respect and freedom from bigotry, which ties into the local muslims they've met who are often progressive, but not representative of what Islam is elsewhere.


  • #1784
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    He explicitly cited his Christianity as one of his prime motivating factors.

    He's a psychotic nutjob who murdered 50 people. I wouldn't think he knows what his "motivating factors" are, to be honest.


  • #1785
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    If that happens then I'd expect it.

    I notice you said "the reality of things" rather than the "facts". I wonder why.

    The facts.


  • #1786
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Argument lost.... Good job.

    I thought so too.
    :D


  • #1787
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,593 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    I've a small point, the 50th dead person was himself from Police shooting. There were 49 murder victims. People from Orlando living abroad, or with friends abroad, might become aware that there's mention on the net of a 50th murder victim and start wondering if there's an unknown, putting stress on them. I met a man at last night's vigil at Barnardo's Square in Dublin who knew one of the victims, so it's a small world.


  • #1788
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    http://fusion.net/story/313038/orlando-shooting-victims-names-pulse-massacre/
    Nice tribute to the victims. All 49 have been identified now.


  • #1789
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,896 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    He may have been gay.
    He may have been Bisexual.

    What is certain is he was homophobic.

    At this point, I am unconvinced that that is true. Bearing in mind that another target he reportedly scouted was a shopping area near Disney World, which doesn't strike me as a center of homosexual activity, it may very well have been a case of finding a place to just kill lots of Americans.

    The gay club may simply have been selected as a place whose layout he knew well from being a repeat visitor, was enclosed, and, being dark and loud, would (and did) allow him to cause maximum carnage before people could figure out what was going on. Maybe it was spite/vengeance after having been rejected by people he approached at the club. (It's not as if there's no precedent for that in the heterosexual world). And maybe it was homophobia or self-hate. Or a combination. At this point, I think we should be starting to learn our lessons about hypothesising absent full facts. The FBI is saying that he made no attempts to cover his trail, social media, personal hard drives, etc, so it seems probable that, over time, a reasonable truth will out.
    The question I'd have though, is if he had been so familiar with the security in place, why did he end up in a shootout with the only armed security guard before he even went inside?

    If he shoots the security guard first, then he's going to have a very easy time of dealing with the other 300 people without looking over the shoulder to see if security is coming up to him. The wolf can kill a lot of sheep if he doesn't need to be concerned about the sheepdog any more.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    There was a security worker who worked at a different nightclub in Orlando who had a friend die at Pulse.
    She said they would pat people down at their nightclub and would regularly find guns on people who were then not allowed entry. She thinks they had a gun in them for security reasons but said one wouldn't know if it was something more.
    She said at Pulse there was no such security so it would be easy to walk in with weapons hidden on you.

    In -this- case, at least, I doubt that applies. It's kindof hard to hide an AR upon yourself at the best of times, and when attired as one normally would in Florida in the summer at a nightclub (Slacks and T-shirt?) it's basically impossible. Of course, doesn't stop the problems caused by pistols, but not relevant here. There is a nationwide organisation known as "The Pink Pistols", which is a gun rights group based on the premise that gays are at particular risk and should be able to defend themselves. Unsurprisingly, they advocate against prohibiting firearms at places where they congregate and socialise.


  • #1790
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    gandalf wrote: »
    Coming back to this late. No I am specifically talking about the semi automatic Ar15 he had. It can fire 45 high velocity rounds a minute and takes 30 round magazines. The only people who should have legal access to weapons like this are the police and military. There is no justification in having a weapon of this type for self defence or hunting purposes.

    It is legal in Ireland to own and use an AR15. I know a few people with them. You need a restricted licence for them but they are not banned here.

    None of those people here with AR15's or similar rifles are going around shooting up schools or nightclubs. Nobody has been killed with a licenced AR15 here in Ireland - ever. Nobody has ever been killed while target shooting at a range here in Ireland either.

    A huge amount of target shooters in the club I'm a member of here in Ireland use semi-automatic rifles and we have absolutely no history of people going mad with their target shooting guns.


  • #1791
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,457 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    It is legal in Ireland to own and use an AR15. I know a few people with them. You need a restricted licence for them but they are not banned here.

    None of those people here with AR15's or similar rifles are going around shooting up schools or nightclubs. Nobody has been killed with a licenced AR15 here in Ireland - ever.

    I would say that the hoops you would have to jump through here would be extensive to get a licence for an AR15. You certainly wouldn't be able to purchase it over the counter the same day.

    As you say we don't have a history of mass shootings in Ireland but the US do and the high body count ones have a common denominator and it is the use of high velocity military spec semi automatic rifles that can take large capacity magazines. It stands to reason that they should be highly restricted for sale.


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  • #1792
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    He's a psychotic nutjob who murdered 50 people. I wouldn't think he knows what his "motivating factors" are, to be honest.

    He didn't murder 50 people, he murdered one cop, two other people, and injured nine others. The person I was quoting, and who was quoting me, i.e. having a conversation, were talking about Robert Lewis Dear, a Christian extremist who attacked a Planned Parenthood.


  • #1793
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,744 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    I had a feeling when this happened this guy might turn out to be
    another Colin Ireland type individual.
    I wonder will ISIS seek to disown him now if it is so.


  • #1794
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    He didn't murder 50 people, he murdered one cop, two other people, and injured nine others. The person I was quoting, and who was quoting me, i.e. having a conversation, were talking about Robert Lewis Dear, a Christian extremist who attacked a Planned Parenthood.

    Never saw that name anywhere, and the thread is about Orlando.


  • #1795
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    The facts.

    List them.


  • #1796
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    List them.

    Why? Can you not find them? Looking in the wrong place?


  • #1797
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,593 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Here's an item from two days ago. I googled to see what the US RC Church had said about the massacre and did the same for US Muslim CLerics. Along with the 2 day-old publication link (WHICH IS NOT A MUSLIM OR CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS PUBLICATION): https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjV3LCn86fNAhXlIMAKHS2JDaYQqQIIHTAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jihadwatch.org%2F2016%2F06%2Framadan-in-orlando-florida-muslim-murders-20-wounds-42-at-gay-nightclub-after-taking-hostages&usg=AFQjCNEklrGdmj6TI9Bsg_hur4JaR8xuog... there was also this from the American Muslim Leaders https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjV3LCn86fNAhXlIMAKHS2JDaYQFggpMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Findianexpress.com%2Farticle%2Fworld%2Fworld-news%2Fflorida-shooting-american-muslim-leaders-condemn-orlando-terror-attack-2850344%2F&usg=AFQjCNHy68A-qomBQj-oP6Cut43DVrnsuQ

    The RC church had several condemnations of the murders. 1 (which also condemns US gun laws)... https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi8w7m88qfNAhWLBsAKHRLADh8QFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fncronline.org%2Fblogs%2Fncr-today%2Fflorida-bishop-orlando-attack-sadly-religion-often-breeds-contempt-lgbt-people&usg=AFQjCNFsBRevZVLQJfJ6WkQOv8HOffVwdQ

    2... https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi8w7m88qfNAhWLBsAKHRLADh8QFggpMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fncronline.org%2Fnews%2Fpeace-justice%2Fchicago-archbishop-decries-targeting-gays-orlando-attack&usg=AFQjCNG0WBIS88QpU3-Lr6iJV9Z5EhUghA

    Edit: re the post immediately below, if it is referring to my mention of RC Church reaction, I was showing how the church (similar to the US Muslim leadership) was defending the right of LGBT people to a normal life like anyone else and not of church extremism, except in it's kind response to the victims and families affected. I see there was a chance that my mention of the JW item could be seen as a reference to Christian Extremism. Tha was an error on my part. I have edited my initial reference to it's link to read (WHICH IS NOT A MUSLIM OR CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS PUBLICATION). Hopefully this will make up for my error. I should have kept the word STRANGE in front of ITEM in my first sentence. I edited it out as I initially thought JW was a Muslim publication keeping an eye on it's co-religionists and I would be insulting them by using STRANGE in connection with (as I thought) their religion. How wrong I was.


  • #1798
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    What on earth has Christianity have to do with an Islamist assault on a gay night club. For goodness sake have a little respect for the deceased and stop with the whataboutery.

    Create another thread to talk about Christian extremism, this is not the place. It comes across like your using the tragedy to push an agenda.


  • #1799
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Why? Can you not find them? Looking in the wrong place?

    Not in the slightest. I just don't know what gossip / rumours / guesswork or whatever else you regard to be "facts", and wanted to see them.

    Anyway, never mind. It's actually disrespectful to those murdered to bicker with a randomer as to why they were murdered. Bottom line is that it doesn't matter. They're dead.

    So I'm calling a halt to this aspect of it. Believe whatever you want.


  • #1800
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,204 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    This popped up in my newsfeed.

    Perhaps it will show what Christianity has to do with this.
    These laws were made by Christians.


    https://www.facebook.com/johann.koehle/posts/238497983199697

    Now some here are dismissive of the existence of homophobia in the West.
    Others question whether any general, everyday, institutionalised homophobia could have had any influence on the murderer.
    And then there are those who don't think it's a big issue just a bunch of gays getting their tantrum on.

    So let's look at the reality of those who have so far survived being shot:
    In Orlando, the people who have been outed when they were shot in a gay night club can, when they get out of the hospital, be legally fired.

    If they get out of the hospital at all, since Orlando affirms doctors' "right" to refuse to treat them at all.

    In Orlando, a hate crime against me doesn't count.


    A person could have gone for a night out, been shot by a nutter, be refused medical treatment, and lose their job - but hey... not because they are gay right... well, not have been shot anyway...that could have been for any reason...

    Homophobia is real.
    It has not gone away.
    There are more ways to destroy a persons life than to take it.


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  • #1801
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    This popped up in my newsfeed.

    Perhaps it will show what Christianity has to do with this.
    These laws were made by Christians.


    https://www.facebook.com/johann.koehle/posts/238497983199697

    Now some here are dismissive of the existence of homophobia in the West.
    Others question whether any general, everyday, institutionalised homophobia could have had any influence on the murderer.
    And then there are those who don't think it's a big issue just a bunch of gays getting their tantrum on.

    So let's look at the reality of those who have so far survived being shot:




    A person could have gone for a night out, been shot by a nutter, be refused medical treatment, and lose their job - but hey... not because they are gay right... well, not have been shot anyway...that could have been for any reason...

    Homophobia is real.
    It has not gone away.
    There are more ways to destroy a persons life than to take it.

    Link to the laws allowing this thanks in advance.


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