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Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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Comments

  • #1742
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    It was an example just like shooting up his place of work.

    He frequented many places. He shot up one.


  • #1743
    cowboyBuilder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭cowboyBuilder


    I think Fred Phelps was probably a self loathing gay man too.
    And look at the damage he and his church did (are still doing) to the gay community.

    It's sad really, he obviously had so much self hate and anger - this of course instilled in him by his religion.


  • #1744
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    jmayo wrote: »
    This is the usual deflection bullshyte and actually is just excusing the excesses of islam and some of it's adherents.
    No other religion at the moment is fostering such hatred and slaughter, but yet every religion is dragged into the dock.

    Has any scientologists engaged in mass slaughter (Tom Cruise videos don't count) ?

    When was the last christian extremist that engaged in wholesale slaughter?
    Oh yeah Brevik, how many since then ?

    How many catholic priests have been telling their parishioners to hate and kill non believers over the last few years ?

    There's a lot of evidence that scientology engages in serious coercion and attacks, and maybe even murder towards the lower end of scientology. They've been declared a dangerous cult in Germany.

    The most famous recent Christian extremist that carried out a terrorist attack in the Western World that I can think of is Robert Lewis Dear who attacked a Planned Parenthood and killed a police officer and two other people, and injured more because PP were providing care for women and their reproductive rights.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Springs_Planned_Parenthood_shooting

    The Catholic church is heavily complicit in hiding, and failing to cooperate with authorities, and compensation schemes for the systematic covering of and mass child abuse that occurred under their watch, by their people, worldwide. In Ireland there's also many abuses that were committed against women. The last Magdalene Laundry was closed down in 1996 I believe, and again they are failing to cooperate on investigations into them.

    Pretty much every church has serious problems, extremely serious problems. Religion is a problem. A huge amount of religions are dangerous. However Islam is the most dangerous of them.


  • #1745
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    He frequented many places. He shot up one.

    Exactly, Yet it's immediately presented as an Attack specifically directed at the LGBT without any evidence of motivation. For me it's an attack on Perceived Western values at the moment if the Islamic angle is true.


  • #1746
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    He frequented many places. He shot up one.

    Possibly because the authorities killed him before he got to do a second ?


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  • #1747
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    Possibly because the authorities killed him before he got to do a second ?

    The hypotheticals are endless. The reality is in front of you.


  • #1748
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    12Phase wrote: »
    I saw the piece and the other panelist and the presenter kept trying to broaden it out to the widest possible way. I actually they were trying to push a line that it didn't matter that the people were gay in a very positive way as in "this is an attack on all of us" rather than "this is an attack on a specific community". However, it came across as really dismissive and I don't think that was the intention. Just two people on totally different wavelengths really.

    Precisely.

    If the anchor had said "you don't understand because you're gay" there would have been war.

    Or if the anchor had said "why should we be concerned about it because it was only you guys", there would rightly have been war.

    But in doing the reverse, Jones lost the plot with his agenda taking over, missing the point that the anchor and the woman contributor were trying to point out that it wasn't "just" a gay issue and that EVERYONE was - or should be - affected and shocked and disgusted.


  • #1749
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    The hypotheticals are endless. The reality is in front of you.

    It is. Unfortunately you're choosing to rule out any possibility except the one you want to believe.

    I'm keeping an open mind until I see proof. Not that I care mind, because people were murdered, which is disgraceful.

    Which of us do you reckon is being more open-minded and inclusive ?


  • #1750
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Michah wrote: »
    By who? Or did you just make that up?
    He has over the last number of years been investigated for, or publically stated that he is a member of, or somehow linked to, practically every Islamic terrorist organisation in the Middle East. Even those who are sworn enemies of one another, like ISIS, Hezbollah and al-Queda.

    Best guess at this stage is that he was most likely a Walter Mitty character exceptionally prone to extreme violence and sorely in need of being committed for his and others' safety.


  • #1751
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36525219

    Looking increasingly like he was gay himself.


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  • #1752
    stoplooklisten
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭stoplooklisten


    he signed up on an online "how to be a good islamic fundamentalist" course, with Britain's hate preacher

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3640404/Orlando-terrorist-s-UK-links-Gay-club-gunman-inspired-ex-Marine-turned-Islamist-hate-preacher-backed-British-apologists-called-Jihadi-John-kind.html


  • #1753
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    It is. Unfortunately you're choosing to rule out any possibility except the one you want to believe.

    I'm keeping an open mind until I see proof. Not that I care mind, because people were murdered, which is disgraceful.

    Which of us do you reckon is being more open-minded and inclusive ?

    I haven't ruled out complex reasons at all. I have said so already on the thread. What you are calling an open mind is simply one that includes all sorts of hypothetical possibilities on an equal footing with evidence in front of your face. That is simply absurd.

    I don't know how you are trying to use the word inclusive: my approach is certainly not inclusive because I am ruling out the hypothetical possibility that this man was motivated by a hatred of elephants. If that is your sense of the word then your approach is more inclusive than mine in regard to hypotheticals.


  • #1754
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    I haven't ruled out complex reasons at all. I have said so already on the thread. What you are calling an open mind is simply one that includes all sorts of hypothetical possibilities on an equal footing with evidence in front of your face. That is simply absurd.

    I don't know how you are trying to use the word inclusive: my approach is certainly not inclusive because I am ruling out the hypothetical possibility that this man was motivated by a hatred of elephants. If that is your sense of the word then your approach is more inclusive than mine in regard to hypotheticals.

    Do tell then What was his motivation ??


  • #1755
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Do tell then What was his motivation ??

    My theory is in post 1044.


  • #1756
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    My theory is in post 1044.

    Yet you have called others out on their perceived hypothetical.... We have no idea why he killed 50 people where he did yet.


  • #1757
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    Actually I'm a bit disappointed with the steep decline in the calibre of gay-equality ambassadors. The likes of David Norris were courageous, witty, intelligent and articulate. And he did the heaviest lifting in terms of removing outdated discriminatory and restrictive laws on gay people.

    I agree on Norris. He did an awful lot off the donkey work, but doesn't get the credit he deserves. The overbearing attitude of Rory O'Neill/Panti Bliss rubs people up the wrong way.


  • #1758
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Yet you have called others out on their perceived hypothetical.... We have no idea why he killed 50 people where he did yet.

    Yes I have called out one poster on his absurd hypothetical. We have a very well founded idea why he killed 50 people in a gay nightclub. It may be that we will have a more complete picture of the killer's motives in time but religious extremism and homophobia are going to be a big part of it. There will of course be those who believe that the real truth is out there in some other dimension.


  • #1759
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Yes I have called out one poster on his absurd hypothetical. We have a very well founded idea why he killed 50 people in a gay nightclub. It may be that we will have a more complete picture of the killer's motives in time but religious extremism and homophobia are going to be a big part of it.

    Oh - an idea! Consider me corrected so :rolleyes: He's guilty as charged y'r honour!
    There will of course be those who believe that the real truth is out there in some other dimension.

    Those who wait for facts to emerge ?


  • #1760
    Straight Edge Punk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Straight Edge Punk


    FTA69 wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36525219

    Looking increasingly like he was gay himself.

    I think rather than being gay, he was "scoping" the nightclub for weakness in security, areas where large groups congregated and things like that.


  • #1761
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    Oh - an idea! Consider me corrected so :rolleyes: He's guilty as charged y'r honour!



    Those who wait for facts to emerge ?

    The facts have emerged.


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  • #1762
    12Phase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭12Phase


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    I agree on Norris. He did an awful lot off the donkey work, but doesn't get the credit he deserves. The overbearing attitude of Rory O'Neill/Panti Bliss rubs people up the wrong way.

    He did do a huge amount of donkey work and not only that but took it on in a MUCH less receptive environment. Norris was openly gay and campaigning in a time when it was still massively taboo here and Ireland was still totally wrapped up in a deeply religious conservative vibe.

    He did change a lot of attitudes and open up a lot of debates.

    Panti did lead a charge but, at it was in a much later phase of change here.


  • #1763
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Straight Edge Punk wrote: »
    I think rather than being gay, he was "scoping" the nightclub for weakness in security, areas where large groups congregated and things like that.

    His ex-wife says he was pursuing a gay relationship and numerous people said he was initiating contact across a variety of gay hook-up acts.

    Here, you could well be right but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was gay. Stranger things have happened, he's clearly a headbanger to begin with.


  • #1764
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    The facts have emerged.

    Where ? And if they have, why is your argument still a theory ?


  • #1765
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    FTA69 wrote: »
    His ex-wife says he was pursuing a gay relationship and numerous people said he was initiating contact across a variety of gay hook-up acts.

    Here, you could well be right but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was gay. Stranger things have happened, he's clearly a headbanger to begin with.

    If he was looking to attack a gay club, would getting in the door with an existing patron not be a good method ? Initiating contact would be a good tactic in that scenario.

    Anyway, bottom line is that no-one knows.

    Unfortunate fact is that 50 people are dead because of a psycho and America's ridiculous gun laws, and fingers crossed that that total won't be added to from those seriously injured.


  • #1766
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    There's a lot of evidence that scientology engages in serious coercion and attacks, and maybe even murder towards the lower end of scientology. They've been declared a dangerous cult in Germany.

    Yes we know they have very questionable record on harassment and stalking of ex members and their Sea Org organisation is highly questionable.
    My point was that we haven't had Scientologists engaging in mass murder, that we know of anyway.
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    The most famous recent Christian extremist that carried out a terrorist attack in the Western World that I can think of is Robert Lewis Dear who attacked a Planned Parenthood and killed a police officer and two other people, and injured more because PP were providing care for women and their reproductive rights.

    Did I ever say there wasn't christian attacks.
    My point was in the grand scheme of things the last major atrocity carried out by Christian was Brevik.
    Even then I am not sure if he ever gave his religion as reason for attack ?

    There are attacks carried out by fundamentalist muslims in the name of islam every other day somewhere in the world resulting in mass deaths.
    Hell there are wars running because of fundamentalist islamic ideology.
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    The Catholic church is heavily complicit in hiding, and failing to cooperate with authorities, and compensation schemes for the systematic covering of and mass child abuse that occurred under their watch, by their people, worldwide. In Ireland there's also many abuses that were committed against women. The last Magdalene Laundry was closed down in 1996 I believe, and again they are failing to cooperate on investigations into them.

    Did I ever say they hadn't a pathetic record in hiding and protecting abuse of women and children.
    It is shameful and one of the reasons I don't like catholic church.

    I find it a bit rich that one excusing islam starts on about the catholic churches record on abuse of women and children, when islam itself and it's sharia courts propagates the discrimination and abuse of women and girls ?
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    Pretty much every church has serious problems, extremely serious problems. Religion is a problem. A huge amount of religions are dangerous. However Islam is the most dangerous of them.

    Yes religion is a problem, but throwing out that mantra everytime a devout muslim goes out and slaughters non believers and non devout muslims in the name of islam is frankly grating at this stage.

    To me it is just pure whataboutery.

    Yes we can all agree that all religions have problems and can cause huge problems, but why the feck is it so hard for some to just admit that islam is in a different league to the rest.

    To bring this some to the current week, the argument "shure aren't all religions bad" is akin to saying that Irish soccer fans are no better than English fans, because Irish fans drink too much like their English counterparts.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #1767
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    Where ? And if they have, why is your argument still a theory ?

    Start in Orlando. Because I'm not the investigating police. I'm writing on the internet.


  • #1768
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    If he was looking to attack a gay club, would getting in the door with an existing patron not be a good method ? Initiating contact would be a good tactic in that scenario.

    Anyway, bottom line is that no-one knows.

    Unfortunate fact is that 50 people are dead because of a psycho and America's ridiculous gun laws, and fingers crossed that that total won't be added to from those seriously injured.

    No guns = No terrorism? I am sure any terrorist worth his salt could put together a hefty car bomb fairly handy.


  • #1769
    12Phase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭12Phase


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    No guns = No terrorism? I am sure any terrorist worth his salt could put together a hefty car bomb fairly handy.

    As was the case in Brussels sadly.


  • #1770
    unseenfootage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭unseenfootage


    Straight Edge Punk wrote: »
    I think rather than being gay, he was "scoping" the nightclub for weakness in security, areas where large groups congregated and things like that.

    Spot on. I'd imagine it takes a lot of preparation to single-handedly pull off a terrorist act on such a scale.


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  • #1771
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Start in Orlando. Because I'm not the investigating police. I'm writing on the internet.

    So am I. So don't contradict me when I try to keep an open mind, please.


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