Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

timthumbni · 13-06-2016 11:47AM

You can almost hear the Westboro church crowd rubbing their hands in glee and getting the placards out for the funerals.

Until America gets its head out of its arse and tightens or shock horror bans the sale of guns then these sorts of things will continue to happen.

Of course America will do absolutely nothing about this as they are held hostage by organisations such as the NRA who are a paranoid collection of freaks who seem to believe that the government/aliens/commies etc are all out to get them.

When will America wake up? The answer is of course never...

captbarnacles · 13-06-2016 11:48AM

wes wrote: »

Except that we know from the words of his own father that he hated Gay people. It was clearly a homophobic attack, as well as an act of terrorism. I think it rather unfair that some people are down playing what was clearly an attack on LGBTQ people.

An attack on LGBTQ people and the motives behind it is an uncomfortable debate for a lot of people , much easier to talk about Islamic Terrorism.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/the-extraordinarily-common-violence-against-lgbt-people-in-america/486722/

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 11:48AM

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Do you honestly think Fundamental Christians are any where near a global threat as fundamental Islam is ?

I believe they are an equal threat to LGBTQI rights. Which is what I am discussing here.

One group wants us dead.
Some of the other group want us dead. The rest want us 'cured' or driven so deep into the closet through fear and lack of rights that they can pretend we don't exist.

Dead or a life not worth living. Gee. What a choice.

JPNelsforearm · 13-06-2016 11:49AM

Gatling wrote: »

But there is something wrong when someone has a history of violence and irrational behavior having unfettered access to Guns and large amounts of ammunition

Was he convicted of a violent offence?

Irrational behavior? Lots of people behave irrationally, it does not mean they are going to massacre a nightclub.

The issue isnt guns, but enforcing the laws that already exist against threats to society,.

smash wrote: »

It should be everyone's concern and everyone's business what someone does when they purchase a weapon which is design for maximum destruction. I can list strings and strings of mass shooting to suggest the reasons why people should be concerned.

Its a rifle, nothing more, a tool.

Grayson · 13-06-2016 11:49AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Exactly, and there is nothing wrong with that, and you have no right to restrict them because YOU dont like what they like.

We (including Americans) restrict loads of stuff included weapons. We don't allow people to have sidewinders or nukes. It's not unreasonable to restrict certain items. We even restrict emissions on cars.

Superhorse · 13-06-2016 11:50AM

wes wrote: »

Except that we know from the words of his own father that he hated Gay people. It was clearly a homophobic attack, as well as an act of terrorism. I think it rather unfair that some people are down playing what was clearly an attack on LGBTQ people.

It was a terrorist attack on people full stop. It shouldn't matter their sexual preferences, their skin colour, their nationality, their religion etc.. Islamic terrorists don't care. They hate everyone who isn't willing to follow Sharia the same. We are all targets for them regardless.

smash · 13-06-2016 11:50AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

The issue isnt guns, but enforcing the laws that already exist against threats to society,.

Such as?

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Its a rifle, nothing more, a tool.

It's a tool capable of more destruction than most tools of it's kind.

Straight Edge Punk · 13-06-2016 11:51AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I believe they are an equal threat to LGBTQI rights. Which is what I am discussing here.

One group wants us dead.
Some of the other group want us dead. The rest want us 'cured' or driven so deep into the closet through fear and lack of rights that they can pretend we don't exist.

Dead or a life not worth living. Gee. What a choice.

Do all fundamental islamists want you dead? I ask because I am not sure.

RDM_83 again · 13-06-2016 11:52AM

seamus wrote: »

This, but at the same time those who spread hate have some responsibility for fanning the flames of the actions of this extremist, regardless of religion.

The Christian right in the US put forward over 100 anti-LGBT bills in the last 18 months.

And then offer their bland condolences over this massacre.

They have a hand in it. They share some of the blame. By being hateful, you legitimise hate. You encourage others to hate, you give them the false belief that they are justified in their actions.
Hateful statements about the gay community are seized upon by this psycho and his ilk as proof of some kind of ideological war between "the gays" and "everyone else", where no such war exists.

It's nothing to do with Islam specifically. Islam and its brother religions preach and legitimise hate against homosexuals. They are all to blame for this, as are anyone who defends these religions' stances on homosexuality.

Until the world stands up and tells them, "Sure, you can say it's part of your religion, but that doesn't mean you're not a vile cvnt", this extremist idiot and his like will continue carrying out attacks like this.

Really?Really? Your a smart person do you actually think that the homophobic rhetoric of the US fundamentalist Christian Right has an influence on the actions of a young Muslim from an Afghani background.
Whatever about arguing against the idea that Islam had an influence on his actions saying he was influenced by the rhetoric your referring to either comes across as disingenuous as hell (have to get the digs in against Christianity no matter what) or just stupid.

On a general note on this thread, while my sympathies are very much with the LBTGQ community and the victims after this attack, does being an non-USA member of said community give any special insight (impact I can understand being greater), being Gay doesn't mean one views the world one way even though the high profile LBTQ posters on here tend to be on the same side of the political spectrum.

If Pim Fortuyn* was alive today he would have had diametrically opposed views to say Bannasidhe JoeyP Links etc.

*Openly gay Dutch politician who's murder paved the way for Geert De Wilders

Gatling · 13-06-2016 11:53AM

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Its a rifle, nothing more, a tool.

It an assault rifle used designed for purely military use its not designed for hunting or home defence .

It's a tool alright a tool deigned with one job in mind killing ones enemies

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 11:53AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You don't think a mass murderer was insane?

How about peter Sutcliffe (the Yorkshire ripper)?

To be a successful killer you need some level of sanity.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 11:54AM

RobertKK wrote: »

It is not an inconvenience, you would swear I had been advocating kill gay people.

In my life I have never said anything that could be considered anti gay to anybody I have ever met. When I meet someone, I treat them as I want to be treated.

I think it is bitter to bring something up from 13 months back, you are trying to isolate me, try to silence me.
When the referendum was over it was over. I thought the people who went to court over the result were highly stupid and going against the will of the people.
I think it was good that the people voted and people should be accepting of the result.
My views do change, I am not some fundamentalist who is stuck in my views.

I am very comfortable with myself and I will speak out against what happened in Orlando and the cause of why these people were murdered.
The cause in this case is Islamic fundamentalism and hate, and these two combinations go hand in hand.

Sounding a bit IONA there Robert.

How have I tried to silence you exactly?

I have simply pointed out you seem to have changed your hymn sheet in the last year and stated that I, personally, am not convinced by your concerns.
Wonderful as it is that you don't want gay people killed , the sheer fact that you felt that was worth mentioning as an example of your lack of antigay sentiments is telling.
There are more ways of destroying a persons life than killing them Robert. One is to deny them security and family. One is to make them lesser in the eyes of the law.
You advocated that.

wes · 13-06-2016 11:54AM

Superhorse wrote: »

It was a terrorist attack on people full stop. It shouldn't matter their sexual preferences, their skin colour, their nationality, their religion etc.. Islamic terrorists don't care. They hate everyone who isn't willing to follow Sharia the same. We are all targets for them regardless.

Except that this guy did hate LGBT people specifically. Again, his own father described his homophobia. It is utterly bizarre that people are refused to call this a homophobic attack.

smash · 13-06-2016 11:54AM

Gatling wrote: »

It an assault rifle used designed for purely military use its not designed for hunting or home defence .

It's a tool alright a tool deigned with one job in mind killing ones enemies

Exactly. It's nothing less than a weapon of war. To downplay is as "just a rifle" is daft.

smash · 13-06-2016 11:57AM

wes wrote: »

Except that this guy did hate LGBT people specifically. Again, his own father described his homophobia. It is utterly bizarre that people are refused to call this a homophobic attack.

Yes it was a homophobic attack, but I'd be willing to bet that even if he never had access to a gay club he would have been involved in a mass murder of some sort in the name of IS.

orubiru · 13-06-2016 11:59AM

wes wrote: »

Except that we know from the words of his own father that he hated Gay people. It was clearly a homophobic attack, as well as an act of terrorism. I think it rather unfair that some people are down playing what was clearly an attack on LGBTQ people.

It was an attack on people having a night out.

It was an attack on LGBTQ people.

It was an attack inspired by extreme religious views.

It was an attack motivated by homophobia.

It was an attack facilitated by idiotic gun control laws.

They are not mutually exclusive statements. Most likely all of the above apply.

Why are people so determined to separate this particular attack from all the others that we see?

Normally we always see an argument/debate over who or what has caused the tragedy.

But here (specifically the Sky news segment linked to earlier in the thread) we are also witnessing an argument/debate over who has ownership of the tragedy.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 11:59AM

Straight Edge Punk wrote: »

Do all fundamental islamists want you dead? I ask because I am not sure.

Generally if the word 'fundamentalist' can be placed before the name of the religion it's a safe bet they want LGBTQI people gone.

Do all Muslims want LGBTQI people dead?
No.
In my 30 odd years of knowing many many Muslims not one of them has attempted to kill me. The worst 'crime' one of them committed was to put sugar in my coffee when they know I am diabetic :mad:

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 11:59AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sounding a bit IONA there Robert.

How have I tried to silence you exactly?

I have simply pointed out you seem to have changed your hymn sheet in the last year and stated that I, personally, am not convinced by your concerns.
Wonderful as it is that you don't want gay people killed , the sheer fact that you felt that was worth mentioning as an example of your lack of antigay sentiments is telling.
There are more ways of destroying a persons life than killing them Robert. One is to deny them security and family. One is to make them lesser in the eyes of the law.
You advocated that.

Why are you the one still living in 2015?

I have moved on you are stuck in the past.

Straight Edge Punk · 13-06-2016 12:00PM

RobertKK wrote: »

To be a successful killer you need some level of sanity.

I'd agree with multiple killings but any lunatic can kill a single person.

wes · 13-06-2016 12:01PM

smash wrote: »

Yes it was a homophobic attack, but I'd be willing to bet that even if he never had access to a gay club he would have been involved in a mass murder of some sort in the name of IS.

Hypothetical's are just that, hypothetical.

What happened was clearly a homophobic attack as well as terrorism, and its bizarre that some people are refusing to call it as such, just because they guy may have chosen another target.

jmayo · 13-06-2016 12:01PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The gun/guns used were not handguns as whatever type of guns they had fired bullets repeatedly.

Orlando police say it is a mass casualty situation.

Actually handgun can be auto, Glock 18 being case in point.
Unless of course your definition of handgun is revolver.

WoolyJumper wrote: »

"Suspected Islamic Extremist" so nothing has been confirmed yet. Not that I would take the daily mails word for it anyway.

Anyway not that it makes a huge difference. Anyone that will take a gun a shoot down a group of unsuspecting people is an extremist and terrorist. Whatever group you claim to represent. Whether Muslims extremists or right wing extremists they are two cheeks of the same arse in my opinion.

And here we have the old Deflection once again.

Ehh they are not the same.

The level of mindless slaughter now being carried out in the name of islam by extremists is a 1000 fold worse than that carried out by christian extremists.

Both groups may be narrow minded bigots, but the christian extremists, as you probably damn well know, are in the halfpenny place when it comes to slaughtering the innocent, be it men, women or children.

FA Hayek wrote: »

Another 'troubled' young male who shunned his new home and all the glorious opportunities afforded to him. Instead he looks to a 1500 year old book for inspiration which offers ridiculous dogma and rules of society which means we would be living back in the dark ages if he had his way.

Its a common theme unfortunately, played out in many countries and we should be right to be worried about the influence of Islam on young male teens.

This is the big scary thing we in the west are dealing or rather not dealing with.
This guy it seems may never have met another ISIS member, never travelled to ISIL or never had direct face to face instructions.
Hell he may never have even had any communication with a member of ISIS.
He looks like a lone wolf, but he has drank the ISIS/al-qaeda koolaid, the fundamentalist doctrine that says the West, Westerners and all the trappings of the West are evil and thus should be destroyed.

This guy was on the FBI radar, but he was discounted.
As sure as hell there are others who may be like him.

This is going to feed into Trump's campaign because Americans will wonder where the next attack is coming from.
Some will put 2 and 2 together to find that no muslims = no attacks.

ISIS like al-qaeda has followers and wantabees.

There are a lot of disgruntled disaffected muslims, often first or second generation westerners, who maybe failures in life, don't quiet fit into life in the west and they find something in the fundamentalist teachings.

This guy like the guys in the UK, France, Belgium may have been normal kid when in school, but things haven't worked out for them and then they turn to the cult of death.

And as sure as hell we have got some of these guys here.

Fleawuss · 13-06-2016 12:02PM

Grayson wrote: »

I think you're missing the point that all abrahamic religions are incompatible with western secular democracy. The reason that we don't see it happening with christianity as much here is because people don't take christianity seriously. A recent EU study found that something like 40% of people in Ireland who said they were catholic on a census form don't believe in live after death. In places where christianity is still taken seriously like Russia and Uganda there are serious problems.

The most anti gay stuff I've heard in ireland is from christian emigrants from countries like that.

On a side note, I just read this. I think islam is a red herring with regards to this discussion.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/12/orlando-shootings-guardian-editorial

The guy was psychotic. He was violent, nasty and abusive. I don't think islam turned him into this. I think he started out that way and used islam to vent his rage. He could have just as easily been christian, jewish or any other ideology which can be interpreted violently.

I'm not missing the point at all. I've actually gone further: all revealed religions are at odds with secular society.

The problem with saying he could have been this or that is that he wasn't. It's true to say that the abrahamic religions share the same root and have their own anti gay "divinely inspired" words. It's true to say that this isn't taken seriously. Any more Europe has had its pogroms and its death camps and its sectarian wars over which version of christianity was right from the reformation on. But the danger of saying any of that now is that it's seen as a refusal to face the problem within Islam. Enter Trump.

There's a time to call out all the revealed religions and point out that they were once all as bad as Islamic extremism is now. There's a time to do it but immediately after the latest self proclaimed Islamic extremist atrocity is only fuelling the fear that we are not allowed name the elephant in the room. Look at the meltdown on reddit over censorship yesterday.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 12:02PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Why are you the one still living in 2015?

I have moved on you are stuck in the past.

How wonderful for you.

Now - any chance we could stop talking about you and start talking about religiously inspired homophobia including religions other than Islam?

Timberrrrrrrr · 13-06-2016 12:02PM

RobertKK wrote: »

To be a successful killer you need some level of sanity.

And to be a successful mass murderer you need some level of insanity.

wes · 13-06-2016 12:03PM

orubiru wrote: »

But here (specifically the Sky news segment linked to earlier in the thread) we are also witnessing an argument/debate over who has ownership of the tragedy.

Ownership? He targeted and murdered LGBT people. Saying it was a homophobic attack, is just a statement of fact and nothing more. Trying to decontextualize one of his motives is completely and utterly bizarre.

smash · 13-06-2016 12:05PM

wes wrote: »

Hypothetical's are just that, hypothetical.

What happened was clearly a homophobic attack as well as terrorism, and its bizarre that some people are refusing to call it as such, just because they guy may have chosen another target.

If 50+ people are dead as a result of the attack does it really matter all that much if the letters LGBT are inserted somewhere in to the headline "Terrorism attack"?

wes · 13-06-2016 12:06PM

smash wrote: »

If 50+ people are dead as a result of the attack does it really matter all that much if the letters LGBT are inserted somewhere in to the headline "Terrorism attack"?

When, people are actively arguing against calling it a homophobic attack, then I think it does matter, as it was one of the main motives of the attacker.

Also, if the headline also pointed out that the attack was homophobic in nature, how is that an issue for anyone exactly? This whole debate imho is nut. How can anyone take issue with people pointing out that homophobia was one of the main motivators of the attacker is beyond me.

cowboyBuilder · 13-06-2016 12:07PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I believe they are an equal threat to LGBTQI rights. Which is what I am discussing here.

One group wants us dead.
Some of the other group want us dead. The rest want us 'cured' or driven so deep into the closet through fear and lack of rights that they can pretend we don't exist.

Dead or a life not worth living. Gee. What a choice.

Big difference is from the Christian side they are losing, they will never get to deny you these rights, just look at the referendum on marriage equality last year - they are almost a benign force - at least in Ireland, don;t know much about USA but I would say it's verging toward the same.

Radical Islam however is growing and the threat increasing - that we need to all worry about.

stoplooklisten · 13-06-2016 12:08PM

smash wrote: »

If 50+ people are dead as a result of the attack does it really matter all that much if the letters LGBT are inserted somewhere in to the headline "Terrorism attack"?

Apparently it's the most important thing, then use the tragedy to springboard off on to agenda about Christians, most bizarre

Walter H Price · 13-06-2016 12:09PM

It's tragic that this has happened but you have to question how it was allowed. The man was under survelience by the FBI i a watch list was a suspect ISIS sympathiser but had not been prohibited from buying firearms. Videos circulating online today showing his father supporting radical Islam , yet hes not on a watch list etc.. and hed the brass neck to say yesterday that this was noting to do with religion. also videos showing a renowned hate preacher giving a sermon in an orlando Mosques calling for LGBT people to be killed , wheres the backlash against this ?

If this man had been white and a christian fundamentalist would people be saying it had nothing to do with his religious homophobic ideology. Why wont the western media condemn radical islam not just terrorisim but the hate preachers in the mosques , the sharia law etc that are fueling the terrorists. How can any non muslim still be defending islam and trottng out the religion of peace line, like it or not Islam is a religion or intoleracne , oppression , repression and violence.

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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