Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

Straight Edge Punk · 13-06-2016 06:28AM

stefanovich wrote: »

Owen Jones has an agenda. Driven by what I could not even possibly begin to understand. He wants to make out that this is a hate crime against gays caused by gun law when in fact it is a religious attack caused by a religion that instructs its followers to kill homosexuals.

His agenda is quite simple. Get all the attention focused on him by making out that this is an attack against HIM.

Straight Edge Punk · 13-06-2016 06:29AM

LaVail wrote: »

Cue more gun control ramblings from Obama before the NRA put him back in his box. They have willie nelson ffs and by all accounts he overrules the president when it comes to things like this

Obama has just given up trying to stop this crap from happening, you could see it during his address yesterday.

LaVail · 13-06-2016 06:34AM

Straight Edge Punk wrote: »

Obama has just given up trying to stop this crap from happening, you could see it during his address yesterday.

Im not well up to date on this sort of thing but they all seem to be afraid to take on Gun control due to the size and power of the NRA association. Fall out with that lot and their numbers are so high that it affects voting it seems?

Straight Edge Punk · 13-06-2016 06:37AM

LaVail wrote: »

Im not well up to date on this sort of thing but they all seem to be afraid to take on Gun control due to the size and power of the NRA association. Fall out with that lot and their numbers are so high that it affects voting it seems?

If Sandy Hook didn't make these people realise they are in the wrong then nothing ever will.

aloyisious · 13-06-2016 06:49AM

stefanovich wrote: »

Owen Jones has an agenda. Driven by what I could not even possibly begin to understand. He wants to make out that this is a hate crime against gays caused by gun law when in fact it is a religious attack caused by a religion that instructs its followers to kill homosexuals.

Oh well, that's OK then, Owen has an agenda, maybe something on the lines of feeling safe as a homosexual and not having to check to see that his behaviour doesn't upset some person of religious belief and give that O/P cause to murder him cos he's a homo.

Ir was just a religious attack caused by a religion that instruct's it's followers to kill homosexuals, They don't actually hate us, just want to kill us because our existence insult's their religion.

Actually I won't debate if the availability of weaponry due to US gun law which facilitated the murderer in his mission to murder so many is an issue in the case. Ir's self-evident, as the body-count and cop he took a head-shot at will confirm.

Edit: much of what we hear and read about what happened is through media sources, and not from people we might know who were at the nightclub. RTE 1 Radio news has just reported that the murderer's father allegedly told NBC news, during an interview, that his son was not motivated by religion in his attack at the club, but did it because he was upset by two men kissing each other near his wife and child last week. I don't know if the reported interview is correct that religion was not the cause, and that two men kissing, a PDA usual to gay men and women, caused the murders.

Richard Hillman · 13-06-2016 07:07AM

If Mr Obama banned guns tomorrow, what do people think will happen? Everyone will just hand their guns back? That there won't be a gun smuggling industry created over the Mexican/Canadian borders? That Islamic Terrorists won't be able to get their hands on weapons in America? That Muslims will start thinking "Im ok with the gays"?

scream · 13-06-2016 07:19AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Fellow citizen - this lesbian doesn't want your kind of 'help'.

I know fear mongering when I see it.

I really don't think that you do. I'm really very puzzled by the LGBT communities embrace and defence of Islam, given that their religion calls for the extermination of LGBT people. It's a religion of hate that oppresses women, refuses to see them as equal to men and would happily annihilate every LGBT person on the planet.

The murderer was a religious fanatic, known to the FBI for years, he drove for 2 hours to target a club full of LGBT people, he had a bomb strapped to himself and 50 people are dead, 53 injured and yet STILL the LGBT community are supporting Muslims. People are waking up to what the West is importing and given that so many Islamic terrorist attacks have been carried out by the offspring of Muslim migrants it is quite clear that Muslims are not only not integrating, they are unable to cope with life in the Western world.

I do not want a bigger Muslim community in Ireland, I saw what it was like in the UK. Perhaps you should visit one of the 50 Muslims countries and see if you still feel that people's concerns about Muslims is ''fear mongering'' There are none so blind as those that will not see.

Straight Edge Punk · 13-06-2016 07:19AM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

If Mr Obama banned guns tomorrow, what do people think will happen? Everyone will just hand their guns back? That there won't be a gun smuggling industry created over the Mexican/Canadian borders? That Islamic Terrorists won't be able to get their hands on weapons in America? That Muslims will start thinking "Im ok with the gays"?

Nobody is saying to ban guns completely.

crazygeryy · 13-06-2016 07:23AM

I just googled an ar 15 assault rifle.good christ almighty no one except military personnel should have access to guns like that.its insane that you can buy those legally in the usa.

Samaris · 13-06-2016 07:35AM

It is so difficult not to get sucked back into this thread. I check it every so often and see the same stuff looping around.

Yeah, Islam needs to adapt to western society if Muslims want to live in western societies. Much like Christianity needs to adapt to secularism if it wants to exist in the west (and, in fairness, it mostly has, bar the nutjobs and the extremists). But I think the issue a lot of people are having about drawing Christianity into it is that people seem able to think "Yeah, Christianity has its issues, and there are nutjobs that want to impose it on everyone, but there's also a lot of ordinary people who aren't zealots and we can get along fine with them" but are unwilling or unable to see the same about Muslims. This is particularly brain-frying to the "lefties" who are seeing this as a weird-ass double standard and don't get why the more right-wing folks seem unable to admit that the exact same thought processes are present in the more extreme end of Christianity and, the same way as most Christians don't follow it, most Muslims don't agree with the extremist sections of their religion either. I reckon there's probably also an element of "Christianity had to adapt because it's -us-, and there wasn't really a choice about forcing it to adapt, but this is a foreign version of the same, it's threatening and really, it's not our damn problem to civilise the extreme ends of that religion too." Which is not entirely unfair, barring that many Muslims are also "us".

Conversely, the more right-wing leaning people are maddened by what they seem to see as a wilful ignoring of a strand of Islamic extremism that is directly attacking the West and are afraid that liberals will continue to ignore the danger until it's too late.

Being as this is the internet, the argument polarises more and more to the extreme ends and it results in a deadlock of frustration.

No-one in this thread wants an Islam as law in Ireland. No-one in this thread wants to see people dying. The fundamental (hah) difference is that one side wants to treat the Muslims they know as "us" and defends them against what seems like a wholescale attack on real people who just get on with their lives and the other side is seeing Muslims as "Islam" and a problem to be dealt with.

-Everyone- sees Islamic EXTREMISM as a threat and a problem to be dealt with.

aloyisious · 13-06-2016 07:36AM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

If Mr Obama banned guns tomorrow, what do people think will happen? Everyone will just hand their guns back? That there won't be a gun smuggling industry created over the Mexican/Canadian borders? That Islamic Terrorists won't be able to get their hands on weapons in America? That Muslims will start thinking "Im ok with the gays"?

Almost as likely as gangsters, hoodlums, etc giving their licensed and unlicensed weapons in for destruction or safekeeping. Charleton Heston gave the NRA members point of view on the issue in a speech to the 129th NRA convention in May 2000: So, as we set out this year to defeat the divisive forces that would take freedom away, I want to say those fighting words for everyone within the sound of my voice to hear and to heed, and especially for you, Mr. Gore: 'From my cold, dead hands!'[6]

— Charlton Heston, May 20, 2000

murphyebass · 13-06-2016 07:39AM

crazygeryy wrote: »

I just googled an ar 15 assault rifle.good christ almighty no one except military personnel should have access to guns like that.its insane that you can buy those legally in the usa.

You're now on a list somewhere

Michah · 13-06-2016 07:44AM

Samaris wrote: »

Yeah, Islam needs to adapt to western society if Muslims want to live in western societies. Much like Christianity needs to adapt to secularism if it wants to exist in the west (and, in fairness, it mostly has, bar the nutjobs and the extremists). But I think the issue a lot of people are having about drawing Christianity into it is that people seem able to think "Yeah, Christianity has its issues, and there are nutjobs that want to impose it on everyone, but there's also a lot of ordinary people who aren't zealots and we can get along fine with them" but are unwilling or unable to see the same about Muslims. This is particularly brain-frying to the "lefties" who are seeing this as a weird-ass double standard and don't get why the more right-wing folks seem unable to admit that the exact same thought processes are present in the more extreme end of Christianity and, the same way as most Christians don't follow it, most Muslims don't agree with the extremist sections of their religion either. I reckon there's probably also an element of "Christianity had to adapt because it's -us-, and there wasn't really a choice about forcing it to adapt, but this is a foreign version of the same, it's threatening and really, it's not our damn problem to civilise the extreme ends of that religion too." Which is not entirely unfair, barring that many Muslims are also "us".

It's a distraction when christian/buddhist/hindu/[insert other religion] terrorism is almost unheard of when compared in scope to islamic terrorism in modern times. It mires down discussion for seemingly no reason other than the guise of keeping a wider picture in perspective.

drunkmonkey · 13-06-2016 07:51AM

crazygeryy wrote: »

I just googled an ar 15 assault rifle.good christ almighty no one except military personnel should have access to guns like that.its insane that you can buy those legally in the usa.

In Florida you can go in and buy one of those off the shelf as it requires 2 hands, you have to wait 3 days for a pistol as it can be used with one hand(the logic alludes me). Same weapon used in Sandyhook and a few other mass shootings.
The general public have no business with a weapon like that nor does any hunter.
America hasn't learned any lessons here, if it had of been a simple home grown hate crime they might have but the 911 call has muzzled Obama and handed Trump a golden ticket to the White House.

drunkmonkey · 13-06-2016 07:53AM

Straight Edge Punk wrote: »

Nobody is saying to ban guns completely.

That's the problem right there, unless your a licenced hunter and require a rifle you have no business with a weapon.

aloyisious · 13-06-2016 07:55AM

scream wrote: »

I really don't think that you do. I'm really very puzzled by the LGBT communities embrace and defence of Islam, given that their religion calls for the extermination of LGBT people. It's a religion of hate that oppresses women, refuses to see them as equal to men and would happily annihilate every LGBT person on the planet.

The murderer was a religious fanatic, known to the FBI for years, he drove for 2 hours to target a club full of LGBT people, he had a bomb strapped to himself and 50 people are dead, 53 injured and yet STILL the LGBT community are supporting Muslims. People are waking up to what the West is importing and given that so many Islamic terrorist attacks have been carried out by the offspring of Muslim migrants it is quite clear that Muslims are not only not integrating, they are unable to cope with life in the Western world.

I do not want a bigger Muslim community in Ireland, I saw what it was like in the UK. Perhaps you should visit one of the 50 Muslims countries and see if you still feel that people's concerns about Muslims is ''fear mongering'' There are none so blind as those that will not see.

The LGBT community is made up of people with different beliefs and faiths. While most of the other LGBT folk I know are, or were nominally, Christian in faith, I know at least three who are Muslim and one Hebrew. with natural ties to those religions, as those of us brought up as Christian have. You can take the man out of.......... but you can't take the....... out of the man. So you are right in both that LGBT people are embracing muslims and that some muslims living here have a never the twain belief on earth.

Edit: it's the other side of the coin... If you demand and insist that you have rights, then the O/P say's he/she has the same right to demand. It's the argument as to how far each side will allow the other breathing space and religious fanatics take advantage of it without any regard to the beliefs of those they kill.

stefanovich · 13-06-2016 07:58AM

stefanovich wrote: »

It is clear from this video that the Muslim community in Orlando has a lot of answer for as does the government for allowing such a man to come to the US.

If they are inviting such people they are complicit and should be investigated.

12Phase · 13-06-2016 08:14AM

CNN sums this up in a way that Sky absolutely wasn't doing last night anyway.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/13/world/isis-persecution-lgbt/index.html

Samaris · 13-06-2016 08:24AM

Michah wrote: »

It's a distraction when christian/buddhist/hindu/[insert other religion] terrorism is almost unheard of when compared in scope to islamic terrorism in modern times. It mires down discussion for seemingly no reason other than the guise of keeping a wider picture in perspective.

Isn't the wider picture needed when it's people's lives in the balance? To narrow it down too much opens the way to some of the suggestions made here and there in this thread - throw them out, that they are Muslim is the problem, intern them, send them back to their own countries (including the ones that were born here). Therefore, keeping a wider picture in mind is kinda necessary to deal with this in a way that isn't just heaping abuse upon atrocity. Which will solve nothing in the long run bar make some people think they are safer. And make others more vulnerable to being radicalised. Nothing like being hated to make one flee for the safety of extremists who want you to hate back.

I think we can all get behind not wanting to create more extremists. Sure, we can shoot them too, but it becomes a bit of a cycle.

Straight Edge Punk · 13-06-2016 08:29AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That's the problem right there, unless your a licenced hunter and require a rifle you have no business with a weapon.

And they are the only civilians who should be allowed to buy weapons.

Straight Edge Punk · 13-06-2016 08:29AM

stefanovich wrote: »

It is clear from this video that the Muslim community in Orlando has a lot of answer for as does the government for allowing such a man to come to the US.

If they are inviting such people they are complicit and should be investigated.

He was born in America.

scream · 13-06-2016 08:41AM

Straight Edge Punk wrote: »

He was born in America.

Many of the Islamic terrorist activities in Europe have been carried out by the offspring of Muslim migrants. Clearly there's a very big problem with Muslims born in the West not identifying or not being able to cope with life in the Western world and that needs to be addressed honestly and dealt with. In this particular case the media seems to be trying to find any reason they can, other than Islam, as being the cause of this mans actions. The man was an Islamic terrorist, he did something that his religion told him was justified. He was not a repressed gay man, his actions weren't as a result of steroids, he was a ''good Muslim''.

captbarnacles · 13-06-2016 08:42AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

In Florida you can go in and buy one of those off the shelf as it requires 2 hands, you have to wait 3 days for a pistol as it can be used with one hand(the logic alludes me). Same weapon used in Sandyhook and a few other mass shootings.
The general public have no business with a weapon like that nor does any hunter.
America hasn't learned any lessons here, if it had of been a simple home grown hate crime they might have but the 911 call has muzzled Obama and handed Trump a golden ticket to the White House.

Where do you get this idea? Nothing has changed for them and Trump will still be crushed in November.

Manic Moran · 13-06-2016 08:43AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

crazygeryy wrote: »

I just googled an ar 15 assault rifle.good christ almighty no one except military personnel should have access to guns like that.its insane that you can buy those legally in the usa.

In Florida you can go in and buy one of those off the shelf as it requires 2 hands, you have to wait 3 days for a pistol as it can be used with one hand(the logic alludes me). Same weapon used in Sandyhook and a few other mass shootings.
The general public have no business with a weapon like that nor does any hunter.
America hasn't learned any lessons here, if it had of been a simple home grown hate crime they might have but the 911 call has muzzled Obama and handed Trump a golden ticket to the White House.

Unfortunately, your first mistake was judging off a picture. There are plenty of more dangerous firearms which nobody objects to because they don't 'look' dangerous.

They're extremely useful for hunting as well as other functions. With over five million in circulation (I don't own one, but I've a couple of functionally quite similar rifles), it has more things going for it than 'it looks cool' and is, in effect, the most popular firearm in the country.

CNBC took some reasonable looks at this.
http://www.cnbc.com/americas-gun-the-rise-of-the-ar-15/

The main video is a half-hour long "The rise of the AR-15"
Hulu here http://www.hulu.com/watch/489971

If you can't reach it, 90% of the episode is here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCvjoFPD5Kg

However, the bottom line is that the firearm is incredibly versatile, light, reliable, accurate, and cheap. Just what you might want in a rifle if you wanted to spend money on one.

Jack Killian · 13-06-2016 08:48AM

Michah wrote: »

You claimed that the Irish media is stoking up anti immigrant sentiment. An absolutely ludicrous assertion as the majority of Irish print media is decidedly pro immigration. So I asked you to back up your claims.

That's how this usually works.

You're wrong re what you think I claimed, so, and you missed my point, which was that we should look at our own in more detail; almost the opposite of what you incorrectly assumed.

Bigger headlines re a single story is NOT "anti-immigrant sentiment"; assuming or surmising or implying that "immigrants are ISIS" or some such rubbish is, and Irish media generally refrain from that.

It's actually TDs that slander our own with such comparisons.

Maybe try actually asking a question next time, rather than just posting a single word or demand in indignation ? It'll make sure such irritation is avoided.

cowboyBuilder · 13-06-2016 08:57AM

WoolyJumper wrote: »

The Quran does not say homosexuality is the worst sin, just fyi. The worst sin in Islam is non belief. Hell is different in Islam than Christianity in that there is only one sin that will give you eternity in hell, that is non belief. Everything else has a "sentence" so to speak.

But indeed according to Islam homosexuals must be put to death. As is the case for Christianity. Both religions are particularly vile in my opinion. But I know plenty of nice christians and I was in wonderful relationship (gay relationship) with a very nice muslim. Its for that reason Im trying not to get too involved in this conversation. But I want to say Casting aspersions or taking blanket measurements across all Muslims is not going to solve the terrorism crisis the world is currently facing. If anything it will make things worse. It also isn't fair on muslims just trying to get on with their own lives, equally the victims of terrorism while also constantly having to defend themselves against being lumped in with extremists.

From reading the comments here I get an awful feeling that some people here are standing on the backs of 50 dead people to push their own agenda. This thread should be have been about the victims of this massacre, but they have barely been mentioned in the last few pages. In fact the guy who did it has barely been mentioned.

I agree with you on this - but the problem for me is that this regular muslim community don't seem to do enough to distance themselves from the radicals.

They should be out marching on the streets with banners saying "Not in our name " ..etc

Annasopra · 13-06-2016 08:59AM

The Hunky Monster wrote: »

Looks like a Westboro Baptist Church type...The worst the christian extremist will do is picket the funerals of dead soldiers or hang around a hospital shouting vile things because they don't like gay people. The Islam extremist will shoot and kill the people his religion doesn't agree with, he will cut your head off for believing something different to you.

Learn the difference.

Ah now here.

Plenty of Christian extremists have killed people. Anders Begring Breivick. The ones who kill at abortion clinics.

ebbsy · 13-06-2016 09:02AM

Lots of different agendas on here, lots of different groups putting themselves on a pedestal.

These nutters don't give a **** who they blow up, in fact they probably would blow up their mother and themselves as well.

speedboatchase · 13-06-2016 09:07AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ah now here.

Plenty of Christian extremists have killed people. Anders Begring Breivick. The ones who kill at abortion clinics.

Literally the only example people use. Also, Breivik has called Jesus "pathetic" and does not identify as a Christian.

speedboatchase · 13-06-2016 09:08AM

ebbsy wrote: »

Lots of different agendas on here, lots of different groups putting themselves on a pedestal.

These nutters don't give a **** who they blow up, in fact they probably would blow up their mother and themselves as well.

They do. They deliberately targeted gay people on this occasion.

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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