Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

Grayson · 13-06-2016 02:41AM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

That doesn't answer my question?
How significant is Christian extremism? How many people have died from it?
Because let's face it, that's what people are really worried about when weighing up different threats.

That FBI list you quoted includes burglary, attempted arson and vandalism.
While they are terrorism it's not the kind that scares people.
Yes the September 11th attacks are considered as just one attack in the report.
But the death toll, injuries and long term affects were and are considerable.
Making a point that it's just one attack and somehow comparable to a tree spiking is highly disingenuous.
Producing a graph showing deaths/injuries from different groups would be a lot more relevant.

I've been posting links all night to correct people. How about for once you post a statistic. How about the number of terrorist attacks in the US since the 70's or 80's broken down by motive.
And how about you stick to the actual definition of terrorism. I've consistently said terrorist attacks, so has everyone else. Now you're trying to change the definition.

12Phase · 13-06-2016 02:45AM

You're somewhat missing the point.
The Bali attack was horrific and targeted general western tourists.

The Paris attack targeted a major venue and was about attacking France generally.

This attack is even more worrying as it's not only just an Islamic extremist attack is also a homophobic attack. You've a whole other layer of hate going on there that does distinguish it in terms of how it's actually deliberately aimed at a minority group that already feels vulnerable because of hate crimes and the religious extremism in national politics in the USA at present.

Bear in mind that the Irish LGBT community in my view anyway feels that it has general support and the backing of the majority of the nation since the marriage referendum.

For American LGBT people, your still putting up with insane debates from right wingers all the time. Then you add a threat from what seems to be Islamic extremist..

It's not a very pleasant mixture of threats to have to face.

It's fairly obvious to see why gay people see just describing it as a general attack as dilution of the facts.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 02:55AM

12Phase wrote: »

You're somewhat missing the point.
The Bali attack was horrific and targeted general western tourists.

The Paris attack targeted a major venue and was about attacking France generally.

This attack is even more worrying as it's not only just an Islamic extremist attack is also a homophobic attack. You've a whole other layer of hate going on there that does distinguish it in terms of how it's actually deliberately aimed at a minority group that already feels vulnerable because of hate crimes and the religious extremism in national politics in the USA at present.

Bear in mind that the Irish LGBT community in my view anyway feels that it has general support and the backing of the majority of the nation since the marriage referendum.

For American LGBT people, your still putting up with insane debates from right wingers all the time. Then you add a threat from what seems to be Islamic extremist..

It's not a very pleasant mixture of threats to have to face.

It's fairly obvious to see why gay people see just describing it as a general attack as dilution of the facts.

Some real hate here from Americans and yet we are told homophobia is dying in the West....http://thoughtcatalog.com/jacob-geers/2016/06/here-are-all-the-people-applauding-the-orlando-gay-club-shooter/

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 13-06-2016 02:56AM

unseenfootage wrote: »

A Christian extremist homophobe is protesting outside the hospital where the LGBT victims are being treated.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Stewartmoore/status/742127839605067779/video/1

Looks like a Westboro Baptist Church type...The worst the christian extremist will do is picket the funerals of dead soldiers or hang around a hospital shouting vile things because they don't like gay people. The Islam extremist will shoot and kill the people his religion doesn't agree with, he will cut your head off for believing something different to you.

Learn the difference.

12Phase · 13-06-2016 02:58AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Some real hate here from Americans and yet we are told homophobia is dying in the West....http://thoughtcatalog.com/jacob-geers/2016/06/here-are-all-the-people-applauding-the-orlando-gay-club-shooter/

It's dying in most of the west.

The US is fairly unusual in a western context to have rising political religious fundamentalism in some places.
It's actually oddly more like what's going on in parts of Eastern Europe and Russia.

Michah · 13-06-2016 02:59AM

Karsini wrote: »

ISIS are known for claiming responsibility for attacks which they had no part in, in order to make them look stronger than they are. I heard that they even claimed responsibility for the gangland shooting in the Regency in Whitehall, which we know was nothing to do with them.

A terrorist organisation releases a kill-list of Florida residents via encrypted channels and calls for lone wolves in Florida to act, a guy who's been on an FBI terrorism watchlist proceeds to kill people in response, he declares that he's committing this act in allegiance with the terrorist organisation who have been calling for the attacks, he Allahu Ackbars throughout and martyrs himself at the end, the terrorist organisation commends his martyrdom, and reaffirms that the organisation is responsible for the attack.

But it had nothing to do with ISIS or Islam.......

White Ninja · 13-06-2016 03:00AM

12Phase wrote: »

You're somewhat missing the point.
The Bali attack was horrific and targeted general western tourists.

The Paris attack targeted a major venue and was about attacking France generally.

This attack is even more worrying as it's not only just an Islamic extremist attack is also a homophobic attack. You've a whole other layer of hate going on there that does distinguish it in terms of how it's actually deliberately aimed at a minority group that already feels vulnerable because of hate crimes and the religious extremism in national politics in the USA at present.

Bear in mind that the Irish LGBT community in my view anyway feels that it has general support and the backing of the majority of the nation since the marriage referendum.

For American LGBT people, your still putting up with insane debates from right wingers all the time. Then you add a threat from what seems to be Islamic extremist..

It's not a very pleasant mixture of threats to have to face.

That's fair enough, I understand that it makes this specific community feel vulnerable. But what Owen Jones seemed to be struggling to understand is that this attack is not a stand alone event, it is in the context of many other attacks, on many other communities all of which I'm sure feel more vulnerable. He seemed to get upset if LGBT wasn't mentioned in every sentence, I get that this attack has specific significance to him, as a gay man. But 50 gay men were killed (so far) in this attack, ISIS and other islamic extremist groups have already killed probably tens of thousands of gay men in the last year. My point is that this specific attack is part of bigger problem which affects everybody. The California attack was blamed on gun control, this attack is being blamed on homophobia and gun control, but the attacks are happening to straight people too, and they're happening in countries with strict gun control, there is one common dominator, Islamic extremism.

White Ninja · 13-06-2016 03:02AM

Michah wrote: »

A terrorist organisation releases a kill-list of Florida residents via encrypted channels and calls for lone wolves in Florida to act, a guy who's been on an FBI terrorism watchlist proceeds to kill people in response, he declares that he's committing this act in allegiance with the terrorist organisation who have been calling for the attacks, he Allahu Ackbars throughout and martyrs himself at the end, the terrorist organisation commends his martyrdom, and reaffirms that the organisation is responsible for the attack.

But it had nothing to do with ISIS or Islam.......

Nope, he saw two dudes kissing a few weeks back, that was it.

12Phase · 13-06-2016 03:06AM

I just find all this crap depressing. You'd really wonder about humanity sometimes. It just seems an unending conveyor belt of psychos out to cause unnecessary misery.

Between killing over abstract theories and religious beliefs to climate change and pollution, I sense we'll be going the way of the dinosaurs only through self destruction rather than a meteor strike.

Dog Man Star · 13-06-2016 03:06AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It makes no difference if the Quaran or the Old Testament is quoted as justification for homo and trans phobia - the hate is the same. And that is my point.

Some people just don't think it's natural. That's never going to change.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 03:20AM

Dog Man Star wrote: »

Some people just don't think it's natural. That's never going to change.

Homosexuality occurs in nature which means it literally is natural.
Lycra on the other hand...
Don't mean you can go out and threaten, abuse, imprison, kill middle aged men on bikes.
Not even if they are wearing a lycra/cotton mix which is forbidden in the Bible.

RobertKK · 13-06-2016 03:25AM

CNN say there seems to be problems with Omar Mateen's father as well, posts on youtube with him in military uniform, something about 5 traitors of Afghanistan, how he was running for the Afghan presidency, and his support for the Taliban.

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 03:36AM

RobertKK wrote: »

CNN say there seems to be problems with Omar Mateen's father as well, posts on youtube with him in military uniform, something about 5 traitors of Afghanistan, how he was running for the Afghan presidency, and his support for the Taliban.

Indeed.
And he seems to be rather worked up about The Durand Line aka an old border dispute between Pashtun Afghanis and Pakistan - Which last time I looked was a Muslim country.
Not sure what your point is apart from the fact that the killer's father appears to be a nutter... or is all this caused by a border dispute???

Michah · 13-06-2016 03:38AM

RobertKK wrote: »

CNN say there seems to be problems with Omar Mateen's father as well, posts on youtube with him in military uniform, something about 5 traitors of Afghanistan, how he was running for the Afghan presidency, and his support for the Taliban.

The father of mass shooter Omar Mateen, who opened fire at a Florida nightclub killing 50 people, is a strong supporter of the Afghan Taliban.

Seddique Mateen is an Afghan man and also hosts the Durand Jirga Show on a channel called Payam-e-Afghan, which broadcasts from California.

Dozens of videos are posted under his name on YouTube, where he speaks on a range of political subjects in the Dari language.

One video shows him declaring his candidacy for the Afghan presidency.

He wouldn't have gotten in under Trump's immigration laws!

Bannasidhe · 13-06-2016 03:42AM

In 2009, the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act came in to force. The law added perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, and disabilities as protected classes under existing federal hate crimes law.

This link contains the names of those who voted against the measure- let's see how many Muslims there are vs how many Christians..

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/12/11912076/orlando-florida-mass-shooting-gay-hate-crime-law

Manic Moran · 13-06-2016 03:51AM

Gatling wrote: »

Sweetemotion wrote: »

ISIS claimed responsibility for this attack.

Of course they did ,

Means **** all though ,

True, but if it results in an increase in determination and effort against them, I'm more than happy to take their claim at face value.

ceadaoin. · 13-06-2016 03:54AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

In 2009, the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act came in to force. The law added perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, and disabilities as protected classes under existing federal hate crimes law.

This link contains the names of those who voted against the measure- let's see how many Muslims there are vs how many Christians..

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/12/11912076/orlando-florida-mass-shooting-gay-hate-crime-law

Well the main thing they have in common is they are mostly Republicans. Not a surprise. I'm not sure how you can ascertain someone's religious beliefs from their name though?

Jack Killian · 13-06-2016 03:59AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

True, but if it results in an increase in determination and effort against them, I'm more than happy to take their claim at face value.

I'd be against this, because while looking out at Trump's type of enemy they'll miss the cancer that is tearing the US to bits.

There are thugs in France who jumped on the bandwagon of the soccer tournament.

There's no proof that the murderer in Orlando didn't do likewise; it's very convenient for the US authorities to let people run with that theory as fact, because it keeps the fear in play.

Ireland does the same with headlines about immigrants committing crimes; we have plenty of our own with 82 convictions, but someone coming in gets a bigger headline for their first.

Michah · 13-06-2016 04:01AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Well done Owen Jones

I'm sorry for Owen Jones. I would also feel guilty if I'd spent my life covering for the ideology that just killed 50 LGBT people.

Michah · 13-06-2016 04:02AM

Jack Killian wrote: »

Ireland does the same with headlines about immigrants committing crimes; we have plenty of our own with 82 convictions, but someone coming in gets a bigger headline for their first.

Citations needed.

Jack Killian · 13-06-2016 04:04AM

Michah wrote: »

Citations needed.

Seriously ? That's all you took from the post ? And in AH ?

Manic Moran · 13-06-2016 04:09AM

Jack Killian wrote: »

Manic Moran wrote: »

True, but if it results in an increase in determination and effort against them, I'm more than happy to take their claim at face value.

I'd be against this, because while looking out at Trump's type of enemy they'll miss the cancer that is tearing the US to bits.

There are thugs in France who jumped on the bandwagon of the soccer tournament.

There's no proof that the murderer in Orlando didn't do likewise; it's very convenient for the US authorities to let people run with that theory as fact, because it keeps the fear in play.

Ireland does the same with headlines about immigrants committing crimes; we have plenty of our own with 82 convictions, but someone coming in gets a bigger headline for their first.

The two problems are not mutually exclusive. It is my opinion that ISIS in its current state needs to be deleted. I am unaware of any particular good that they are doing, and a fair bit of harm to citizens of multiple nations. That can be the focus of the external-facing organisations such as the military, while civilian law enforcement and social experts can aim towards the domestic side of things, as is their remit.

learn_more · 13-06-2016 04:16AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Well done Owen Jones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEgd9q8ugs4

That outburst by Owen on sky news was both hilarious and embarrassing at the same time. Talk about a hissy fit. Sky news has it's faults but I really respect that presenter (Mark Longhurst) over the years on sky papers. A very likeable chap he seems too.

For Owen to suggest that it was first and foremost a homophobic attack and for the newspapers to suggest that there is now some concerted new campaign against gays (over and above the level it has always been) is sensationalist. It's quite dangerous too it might inspire them to do just that. Why shouldn't a gay club be a target for terrorism just like any club. There's a bit of equality for ya.

The point Mark and the other panellist made to him was that if indeed this is Islamist terrorism then gays are merely one demographic of western culture they hate which is a valid point in my view and is hardly 'intellectualizing' it as someone stated a few posts back. Why should a gay club be excluded from a terrorist attack? If there was no gay club he would have attacked somewhere else, obviously.

my friend · 13-06-2016 04:32AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Some real hate here from Americans and yet we are told homophobia is dying in the West....http://thoughtcatalog.com/jacob-geers/2016/06/here-are-all-the-people-applauding-the-orlando-gay-club-shooter/

You're quoting WBC and related feeds with a few Islamic ones too, in no way representative of 99.9% of USA

If you want to stoke a sexuality war, help yourself but at least be informed and be honest

Michah · 13-06-2016 05:00AM

Jack Killian wrote: »

Seriously ? That's all you took from the post ? And in AH ?

You claimed that the Irish media is stoking up anti immigrant sentiment. An absolutely ludicrous assertion as the majority of Irish print media is decidedly pro immigration. So I asked you to back up your claims.

That's how this usually works.

my friend · 13-06-2016 05:18AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Well done Owen Jones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEgd9q8ugs4

Really? Very unprofessional and not right either

Furthermore, what's Owen Jones going to say when it surfaces that the attacker was gay or repressed gay?

stefanovich · 13-06-2016 06:04AM

"Gays Must Die Says Speaker At Orlando Mosque "

aloyisious · 13-06-2016 06:12AM

my friend wrote: »

Really? Very unprofessional and not right either

Furthermore, what's Owen Jones going to say when it surfaces that the attacker was gay or repressed gay?

The cause of the row was that the other two on the show expected him (as a gay man) to be calm and collected when the item under discussion was not merely a newspaper item but specifically the murder of 50 people at an advertised event for Gay Hispanics in a gay nightclub. They behaved as if the issue was just something to be debated as an everyday item and not something which affected him at a personal level, and they just couldn't see and/or accept that.

Their comments about Owen walking off the show (HOW UNPROFESSIONAL) showed how little they realized the effect such a mass murder could have on people, pooh-poohing his reaction to the casual (oh, it's just a headline) way they were treating it and what a disconnect they had with it's reality. I'd liken his reaction to that of the Floridians, I'd hazard a guess that the other two wouldn't have expected a calm reaction from Floridians to the massacre, as if it was a merely an incident. The presenter mentioned the nail-bomb attack on a gay venue in London so he must have known that for Owen, as a gay Englishman, the murder of gay people was not merely a paper headline but a reminder that there are homophobes out there with deadly intent in their minds.

The murderer drove 90 odd miles to that particular club on that particular day to carry out the murders. One doesn't do that on happenstance, regardless of the target. He knew what he was doing in advance and whom he was going to kill in advance, regardless of any personal motivation.

stefanovich · 13-06-2016 06:17AM

aloyisious wrote: »

The cause of the row was that the other two on the show expected him (as a gay man) to be calm and collected when the item under discussion was not merely a newspaper item but specifically the murder of 50 people at an advertised event for Gay Hispanics in a gay nightclub. They behaved as if the issue was just something to be debated as an everyday item and not something which affected him at a personal level, and they just couldn't see and/or accept that.

Their comments about Owen walking off the show (HOW UNPROFESSIONAL) showed how little they realized the effect such a mass murder could have on people, pooh-poohing his reaction to the casual (oh, it's just a headline) way they were treating it and what a disconnect they had with it's reality. I'd liken his reaction to that of the Floridians, I'd hazard a guess that the other two wouldn't have expected a calm reaction from Floridians to the massacre, as if it was a merely an incident.

The murderer drove 90 odd miles to that particular club on that particular day to carry out the murders. One doesn't do that on happenstance, regardless of the target. He knew what he was doing in advance and whom he was going to kill in advance, regardless of any personal motivation.

Owen Jones has an agenda. Driven by what I could not even possibly begin to understand. He wants to make out that this is a hate crime against gays caused by gun law when in fact it is a religious attack caused by a religion that instructs its followers to kill homosexuals.

LaVail · 13-06-2016 06:28AM

Cue more gun control ramblings from Obama before the NRA put him back in his box. They have willie nelson ffs and by all accounts he overrules the president when it comes to things like this

Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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