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Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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Comments

  • #902
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    unseenfootage wrote: »
    I think that even though he wasn't trained by ISIS, they played a significant role in radicalizing him.

    Seems his problems predates isis
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #903
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    MadYaker wrote: »
    Anyone know if the gun/guns he used were legally purchased and owned by him?

    AR 15 rifle and pistol both legally held
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #904
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,304 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Grayson wrote: »
    Fair enough, the figures are still interesting. 60 islamic attacks out of 2600+ terrorist attacks.
    Doesn't seem like islamic terror in the US is as big a threat as christians, does it?
    How many people in the US have been killed by Christian extremists in the past 10-20 years?
    Because it would want to be a fairly high number for you to consider it a bigger threat than Islamic terrorism.


  • #905
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,782 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Gatling wrote: »
    it was simply an angry unstable man with a history of violence armed to the teeth with legally held fire arms

    There was a massive failing an unstable person went on a rampage once again with legally held fire arms .
    For the several hundred time in america ,
    and what's always comes out mental health problems and underfethered access to legal fire arms .

    Have you rang the FBI yet to tell them this?


  • #906
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,204 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I actually brought it up a couple of days ago about homophobia in Qatar: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057608690



    Back to the events in Orlando, you called people Islamophobic and switched to blaming Christians as part of your discussion on homophobia.
    Surely you were guilty of Christianophobia.

    I believe whoever the person is, one should treat others as they would like to be treated.

    Ah -still spinning I see Robert.
    I remember you and your 'concerns' during the marriage equality debate.

    Tell me Robert - who is sponsoring Anti LGBTI legislation in the U.S.?

    If you can prove it is not Christians I will apologise for saying there are homophobic Christians active in the U.S. fostering a climate of hatred and fear.


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  • #907
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Have you rang the FBI yet to tell them this?

    Oh dear. ..
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #908
    White Ninja
    Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭White Ninja


    Gatling wrote: »
    Seems his problems predates isis

    Yes, apparently he claimed membership of a muslim terrorist organisation to co-workers as far back as 2013. Al-Qaeda I would assume.


  • #909
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,782 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    MadYaker wrote: »
    Anyone know if the gun/guns he used were legally purchased and owned by him?

    Purchased legally in the past week or so in Florida.

    But we have seen in Europe, terrorists will get them illegally anyway.


  • #910
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unseenfootage wrote: »
    We're not buying that.

    Your posting history on boards speaks volumes....

    Do I have political opinions? Yes. Same as you. I don't quite have an "agenda" though.


  • #911
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Fellow citizen - this lesbian doesn't want your kind of 'help'.

    I know fear mongering when I see it.

    Same here. And this gay man rejects attempts to use LGBT people and the cold blooded murder of LGBT people to further the causes of hatred and bigotry.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #912
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,442 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    The full extent of Mateen’s motivations may have been complex and less clear than immediately apparent, though. A knowledgeable US official told the Guardian that while the federal investigation was in the earliest stages, an initial hypothesis regarding the shooter’s motive leaned closer to a hate crime than an act of terrorism.

    “The idea of it being terrorism is not off the table, but it’s probably not the principal approach,” said the official, who would not be identified by name or agency in discussing a fast-moving investigation. “There are other reasons to believe it was motivated toward a very specific kind of community, obviously.”

    That investigation was still determining if the shooting was “terrorism or a massive, massive hate crime”, the official said.

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/12/omar-mateen-orlando-nightclub-attack-shooter-named


    So we really don't know at this point.

    Honestly I think it's a chicken Vs egg thing at this stage. Was he a homophobic asshhole who found justification in religion or a guy who actually thought that gay people were ok but got radicalised by religion.

    I think it's probably mainly the first.
    Studies have shown that most suicide bombers or people who martyr themselves for a cause are generally loners who are looking to commit an act of personal significance. They are people who feel inadequate or helpless and wish to do something to make a personal statement which will in some weird way give them self esteem (even though it kills them). Elliot Rodgers is a perfect example.


  • #913
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    White Ninja wrote: »
    Yes, apparently he claimed membership of a muslim terrorist organisation to co-workers as far back as 2013. Al-Qaeda I would assume.

    9/11 according to some
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #914
    White Ninja
    Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭White Ninja


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Purchased legally in the past week or so in Florida.

    But we have seen in Europe, terrorists will get them illegally anyway.

    Or do without, plenty of stabbings and bombings by muslim extremists too.

    Timothy McVeigh didn't use a gun, and killed a lot more,.. not islamic I know.


  • #915
    unseenfootage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭unseenfootage


    White Ninja wrote: »
    Yes, apparently he claimed membership of a muslim terrorist organisation to co-workers as far back as 2013. Al-Qaeda I would assume.

    Word.

    Does anybody have a copy of his membership card?


  • #916
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,782 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Ah -still spinning I see Robert.
    I remember you and your 'concerns' during the marriage equality debate.

    Tell me Robert - who is sponsoring Anti LGBTI legislation in the U.S.?

    If you can prove it is not Christians I will apologise for saying there are homophobic Christians active in the U.S. fostering a climate of hatred and fear.

    But there you go again, turning it onto Christians, dare not speak a muslim who rang the emergency services to say he had pledged his allegiance to ISIS and mentioned the Boston bombers who were Islamic terrorists as he was in the process of shooting over 100 people.

    They have some stupid legislation in the US, even arguing over toilets, there has been a large scale backslash to the stupidity.


  • #917
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Same here. And this gay man rejects attempts to use LGBT people and the cold blooded murder of LGBT people to further the causes of hatred and bigotry.

    This is not about hatred and bigotry.

    It is the opposite, it's to point out hatred and bigotry and the very real threat that exists. Trump's temporary 2 year ban of muslim immigration, although extremely drastic, is at least a proposal that might actually prevent things like this. Clinton will come out with wishy washy condolences and the odd hashtag or two but will do precisely f*ck all in practice. Far easier to have a go at Trump than confront reality.


  • #918
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Do you think this guy would have lived out his life peacefully if hypothetically there were no congregations of gay people to shoot? Something tells me this is unlikely.

    Do you think it makes no difference in this situation whether someone's beliefs are doctrinal or not, given that there is an overt effort to spread terror through subscription to said belief system?


  • #919
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,442 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    How many people in the US have been killed by Christian extremists in the past 10-20 years?
    Because it would want to be a fairly high number for you to consider it a bigger threat than Islamic terrorism.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html

    Since 2001 it's way more christians. Before 2001 it was way more christians (as I mentioned 60 attacks out of 2600+ were islamic) the only abberation is sept 11th.

    Sept 11th was one attack though. It was huge but it's one attack. It really skews the figures. It's like comparing the number of road traffic deaths vs plane deaths in Ukraine. Normally RTA's are worse but on one particular day.....


  • #920
    unseenfootage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭unseenfootage


    A Christian extremist homophobe is protesting outside the hospital where the LGBT victims are being treated.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Stewartmoore/status/742127839605067779/video/1


  • #921
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,442 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Deleted User wrote: »
    This is not about hatred and bigotry.

    It is the opposite, it's to point out hatred and bigotry and the very real threat that exists. Trump's temporary 2 year ban of muslim immigration, although extremely drastic, is at least a proposal that might actually prevent things like this. Clinton will come out with wishy washy condolences and the odd hashtag or two but will precisely f*ck all in practice. Far easier to have a go at Trump than confront reality.

    Sure, his 2 year ban on muslims entering america would stop a guy who was born in the US 29 years ago.


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  • #922
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,442 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    unseenfootage wrote: »
    A Christian extremist homophobe is protesting outside the hospital where the LGBT victims are being treated.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Stewartmoore/status/742127839605067779/video/1

    Holy ****.


  • #923
    12Phase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭12Phase


    White Ninja wrote: »
    Why? Seemed a like a terribly unprofessional job to me, Sky should never have him on again.

    I don't agree. I think you've got to see this in context. This is a very aggressive attack on a community that's only just managed to gain full equality in a handful of countries.

    Gay people are still not only discriminated against but jailed and brutally killed in quite a few parts of the world. Even in the developed and secular world, there's still serious discrimination and communities that are still hidden out of sight.

    We're only a year away from a rather grueling debate here in Ireland and thankfully, were now amongst the most progressive places in the world for LGBT rights. That doesn't mean that gay people in Ireland or in Britain have had it easy up until recently and there are still crazy issues with random homophobia, it's just no longer from officialdom. You're still looking at a community that's really only taking its first steps into being respected and being able to walk tall.

    It's a very non random attack targeting that community. That's frightening for gay people and it hurts deeply. It means people don't feel safe and feel like they could be targeted for who they are. Not their politics, not their religion. It's very, very personal much like racism or attacks on women.

    Owen Jones is an activist, a deep thinker and I suspect someone who cares passionately about what's going on around him. He's also gay.

    To have to deal with two chattering class types trying abstract and intellectualise and discuss a situation like that in a remote, almost playing devil's advocate kind of way is incredibly hard to take when it's about an attack on your community.

    Also I genuinely do think that LGBT hate crimes get a lot less attention than they should. This isn't just a generic attack on any nightclub. It's very definitely an attack on gay people. That's the simple point he was making.

    The presenter kept trying to water that down to its an attack on people having a night out.

    That's missing the point and so insensitive and just diluted it.

    Believe me, it hurts. I'm gay myself and it resonates deeply. I'm also really familiar with the places in Brussels that were attacked used that metro station every day and that really left me shook up.

    You can't just intellectualise or abstract these things. They're attacks on actual communities and this one hurts very badly as it's most definitely anything but random.

    I can see exactly where he's coming from on this. Sadly, the presenter and other panelist didn't


  • #924
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think David Cameron got it pretty spot on:

    And as we do all of this work to counter the Islamist extremist ideology, let’s also recognise that we will have to enter some pretty uncomfortable debates – especially cultural ones. Too often we have lacked the confidence to enforce our values, for fear of causing offence. The failure in the past to confront the horrors of forced marriage I view as a case in point. So is the utter brutality of Female Genital Mutilation (FGM).

    It sickens me to think that there were nearly 4,000 cases of FGM reported in our country last year alone. Four thousand cases; think about that. And 11,000 cases of so called honour-based violence over the last 5 years – and that’s just the reported cases.

    There are other examples of this passive tolerance of practices running totally contrary to our values. The failure of social services, the police and local authorities, to deal with child sex abuse in places like Rotherham was frankly unforgiveable.
    And look what happened in Tower Hamlets, in the heart of our capital city. We had political corruption on an epic scale: with voters intimidated and a court adjudicating on accusations of ‘undue spiritual influence’ for the first time since the 19th century. As the judge said: those in authority were too afraid to ‘confront wrongdoing for fear of allegations of racism’.
    Well this has got to stop.
    We need everyone – government, local authorities, police, schools, all of us – to enforce our values right across the spectrum.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/extremism-pm-speech


  • #925
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,782 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Grayson wrote: »
    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/12/omar-mateen-orlando-nightclub-attack-shooter-named


    So we really don't know at this point.

    Honestly I think it's a chicken Vs egg thing at this stage. Was he a homophobic asshhole who found justification in religion or a guy who actually thought that gay people were ok but got radicalised by religion.

    I think it's probably mainly the first.
    Studies have shown that most suicide bombers or people who martyr themselves for a cause are generally loners who are looking to commit an act of personal significance. They are people who feel inadequate or helpless and wish to do something to make a personal statement which will in some weird way give them self esteem (even though it kills them). Elliot Rodgers is a perfect example.

    We know he rang 911 to pledge allegiance to ISIS and also mentioned the Boston bombers who were Islamic terrorists.
    I would say he read about ISIS throwing suspected gay people off buildings, stoning suspected gay people to death in Iraq.
    It is possible he saw an ideology that he agreed with, like gay people should die and he saw in Islamic terrorism views he agreed with, which ended up with him attacking his country and his own people.
    There was a bottomless pit of hate involved in this.
    It is impossible to understand, I don't know anyone who holds hate, most people just want to get on with their lives and don't care one way or the other about others.
    This guy cared so much in the wrong direction, it is frightening that people have such hate.
    The mosque he attended will be under investigation, given he attended it up to 4 times a week,
    Was there anyone there preaching death to gay people?

    It should be noted the Irish state has prevented an Islamic speaker attending the Clonskeagh mosque. A speaker who says gay people should be killed, and a friend of the Halawa family.


  • #926
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Grayson wrote: »
    Sure, his 2 year ban on muslims entering america would stop a guy who was born in the US 29 years ago.

    It's not going to prevent US citizens from doing this but it is still at the very least an attempt to address a growing problem. Either you come up with a counter solution or else you have nothing. I mean a practical solution not just some sentiments.


  • #927
    White Ninja
    Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭White Ninja


    12Phase wrote: »
    I don't agree. I think you've got to see this in context. This is a very aggressive attack on a community that's only just managed to gain full equality in a handful of countries.

    Gay people are still not only discriminated against but jailed and brutally killed in quite a few parts of the world. Even in the developed and secular world, there's still serious discrimination and communities that are still hidden out of sight.

    We're only a year away from a rather grueling debate here in Ireland and thankfully, were now amongst the most progressive places in the world for LGBT rights. That doesn't mean that gay people in Ireland or in Britain have had it easy up until recently and there are still crazy issues with random homophobia, it's just no longer from officialdom. You're still looking at a community that's really only taking its first steps into being respected and being able to walk tall.

    It's a very non random attack targeting that community. That's frightening for gay people and it hurts deeply. It means people don't feel safe and feel like they could be targeted for who they are. Not their politics, not their religion. It's very, very personal much like racism or attacks on women.

    Owen Jones is an activist, a deep thinker and I suspect someone who cares passionately about what's going on around him. He's also gay.

    To have to deal with two chattering class types trying abstract and intellectualise and discuss a situation like that in a remote, almost playing devil's advocate kind of way is incredibly hard to take when it's about an attack on your community.

    Also I genuinely do think that LGBT hate crimes get a lot less attention than they should. This isn't just a generic attack on any nightclub. It's very definitely an attack on gay people. That's the simple point he was making.

    The presenter kept trying to water that down to its an attack on people having a night out.

    That's missing the point and so insensitive and just diluted it.

    Believe me, it hurts. I'm gay myself and it resonates deeply. I'm also really familiar with the places in Brussels that were attacked used that metro station every day and that really left me shook up.

    You can't just intellectualise or abstract these things. They're attacks on actual communities and this one hurts very badly as it's most definitely anything but random.

    I can see exactly where he's coming from on this. Sadly, the presenter and other panelist didn't

    So the Bali nightclub bombing which killed 4 times as many, was a muslim terrorist attack, the Paris night club attack was just another terror attack, but this one is somehow special because it was a Gay club?
    This guy has been associating himself with Islamic extremists since 2013, in 2014 he contacted a member of Al-Qaeda, he is a muslim extremist, and chose to attack a gay club. Horrific as it is, I don't think it's any more significant than all the other terrorist attacks happening all over the world now, they're becoming almost routine, the issue is Muslim extremism, not homophobia, or anti semitism or gun control or anything else.


  • #928
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,204 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    Would you be willing to admit that great progress has been made over the last three or four decades in the western world towards accepting gay people and treating them with respect? I am from Northern Ireland, I was raised Presbyterian, but now I am an atheist. The church that I was a member of now has several openly gay members. Northern Ireland is probably one of the safest places in the world to be gay. Just the other day in Newcastle Co Down I saw a gay couple walking on the beach holding hands, the beach was packed, nobody batted an eyelid. Not an issue for most people in what is probably the most Christian part of western Europe.

    Where did I deny a lack of progress?

    I do deny that it was all handed over with love and kisses. People were beaten to death for being gay in Ireland and the murders allowed to walk away with a rap on the knuckles. Activists fought long and hard to get equal rights.

    We may have overwhelmingly won the marriage referendum but only after we were forced to go and askour friends and families and neighbours and complete strangers to please grant us this measure of equality please please while listening to how we were potential child abusers under the guise of 'balanced debate'. And until the morning of the vote we didn't know if they would say yes.

    Northern Ireland hasn't said yes yet by the way.

    So while we are not being thrown off Jihadist's roofs in Syria or 'cure raped' by South African Christians or jailed for PDA's in Orthodox Russia we are not completely safe in the Liberal West either - 13 U.S. States have laws on their Statute books which outlaw anal sex.

    In over 70 countries homosexuality is illegal. Yes - the majority are Muslim but on that list are Christian countries such as Jamaica, Liberia and Samoa. Buddhist countries such as Bhutan and Hindu India.

    It makes no difference if the Quaran or the Old Testament is quoted as justification for homo and trans phobia - the hate is the same. And that is my point.


  • #929
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,304 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Grayson wrote: »
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html

    Since 2001 it's way more christians. Before 2001 it was way more christians (as I mentioned 60 attacks out of 2600+ were islamic) the only abberation is sept 11th.

    Sept 11th was one attack though. It was huge but it's one attack. It really skews the figures. It's like comparing the number of road traffic deaths vs plane deaths in Ukraine. Normally RTA's are worse but on one particular day.....
    That doesn't answer my question?
    How significant is Christian extremism? How many people have died from it?
    Because let's face it, that's what people are really worried about when weighing up different threats.

    That FBI list you quoted includes burglary, attempted arson and vandalism.
    While they are terrorism it's not the kind that scares people.
    Yes the September 11th attacks are considered as just one attack in the report.
    But the death toll, injuries and long term affects were and are considerable.
    Making a point that it's just one attack and somehow comparable to a tree spiking is highly disingenuous.
    Producing a graph showing deaths/injuries from different groups would be a lot more relevant.


  • #930
    stoplooklisten
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭stoplooklisten


    he worked as a correctional office in a youth facility, he hasn't been spreading his ideology


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  • #931
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,304 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    unseenfootage wrote: »
    A Christian extremist homophobe is protesting outside the hospital where the LGBT victims are being treated.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Stewartmoore/status/742127839605067779/video/1
    Wow, just wow. What a world class c*nt.


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