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Mass shooting in Orlando Nightclub

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Comments

  • #542
    Cienciano
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,208 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    Superhorse wrote: »
    Unbelievable the apologists for the Islamics on here. They'll do anything to deflect. They are as dangerous to our freedoms as the Islamics themselves.

    If Muslims are a danger to our freedom, what do you think should be done about them?


  • #543
    Matt Markinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 107 ✭✭Matt Markinson


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    There are already hundreds of millions of handguns and tens of millions of rifles and billions of bullets in circulation. Making guns illegal or restricting guns is going to make NO difference. They would immediately be a thriving illegal gun market if hardline anti-gun laws were introduced. There already is a thriving underground gun market in regions of the US where guns are already restricted.

    Booze was banned in the 1920s and look what happened. The war on drugs has been going on for decades and drug abuse is at astronomical levels in the US.

    The horse has bolted. Guns are going to be widely available with or without gun laws.

    The arguments on guns are moot.

    and it still doesn't change the glaring fact, that most such massacres to date in the west have in fact been carried out by people with legally held firearms. Yet gun lovers think the solution to gun killings is handing out more legally held guns so we can achieve gun killings on the level of the USA to prevent gun crime. Lol.


  • #544
    Polo_Mint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,504 ✭✭✭Polo_Mint


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    Absolutely not, but it has moved on from it's dark age origins, Islam hasn't.

    But you have said that All Muslims consent to Islamic Terrorist Attacks.

    You also say the Christians are also not peaceful.

    So im guessing you are a Christian, Do you give consent to bombing hospitals and mosques in the middle east.

    The way you painted all muslims with the same brush.

    Do you paint all Christians with the same brush?


  • #545
    Superhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 848 ✭✭✭Superhorse


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Check out the silence here:
    http://www.ummah.com/forum/

    These are the moderates. Hot topics are demons, child marriage, subjecting non muslims to sharia. There seems to be a high level of mental illness in that online community which I hope to god is not representative.

    From my experience that's par for the course for Islam. A backward religion.


  • #546
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    Cienciano wrote: »
    If Muslims are a danger to our freedom, what do you think should be done about them?

    They should be forced to moderate their views until they are in line with the modern civilized values. If they seek to impose their backward values on secular democratic modern civilized societies they are in for a fight to the death. They either accept gay rights, women's rights, democratic values, freedom of religion, freedom of conscience, freedom of thought, sexual freedoms and the right to privacy or they get the hell back to the backward violent primitive dumps they crawled out of. If they moderate their views and adapt their religion to the modern world they can stay and they can be part of the future. Ultimately the entire world should become democratic free secular and tolerant. Backward savages religions need to die out and ignorant stupid cultures stuck in the past like Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism etc etc need to go if we hope to progress as a species.
    We did not fight Catholicism in Ireland and secure a largely secular society only to surrender to the same ignorant goatherd Bronze age beliefs of newcomers.


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  • #547
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    Muslims don't use televisions, radios, mobile phones, or computers? You're delusional. There is no mass movement within Islam that condemns these atrocities, and that is a fact.

    Except for:

    Muslim American Society (MAS), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), Muslim Alliance of North America (MANA), Muslim Student Association (MSA), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), Solidarity International, American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ), American Muslim Alliance (AMA), United Muslim Americans Association (UMAA), Islamic Media Foundation (IMF), American Muslim Foundation (AMF), Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO), American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), Muslim Brotherhood, North American Fiqh Council,al-Muhajirun (I will put a questionmark on that, but the leader condemned Islamic extremist attacks, and that group is actually considered extremist itself!) Organisation of the Islamic Conference, Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (JUI) party, (Pakistan), British Muslim Forum (500 Muslim scholars, clerics and imams signing a fatwa against those who carried out 9/11), Islamic Society of North America, Global Relief Foundation, Islamic Relief, Mercy USA (Muslim charities that raised funds for victims of 9/11)...



    aaaaaand a whole buggertonne of Imams and ordinary people. But no, no Muslims or Muslim organisations speak out against Islamic extremism. Ever. This is fact because Jimmy says so.


  • #548
    mikeym
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭mikeym


    RIP to the 50 that passed away.

    Orlando is like my 2nd home and Its an amazing place.


  • #549
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,293 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    They should be forced to moderate their views until they are in line with the modern civilized values. If they seek to impose their backward values on secular democratic modern civilized societies they are in for a fight to the death. They either accept gay rights, women's rights, democratic values, freedom of religion, freedom of conscience, freedom of thought, sexual freedoms and the right to privacy or they get the hell back to the backward violent primitive dumps they crawled out of. If they moderate their views and adapt their religion to the modern world they can stay and they can be part of the future.

    How does this happen?


  • #550
    Severard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Severard


    Matt Markinson wrote: »
    Criminals don't carry out massacres of the public in schools, concerts and nightclubs.
    The majority of public gun massacres in schools, cinemas, towns etc. from Dunblane to Hungerford, to Columbine to name just a few, were all carried with legally held firearms.

    Actually yes they would be classed as criminals since you know they commited a crime. And since 2002 the majority of those massacres were carried out in gun-free zones, which defeats your argument. You've dug yourself into a hole on this one.

    http://dailysignal.com/2016/02/10/mass-shooters-prefer-gun-free-zones/


  • #551
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    There's nothing like a good persecution to bring about peace and harmony eh?


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  • #552
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Matt Markinson wrote: »
    The exact same was said about Irish people by those with an anti-Irish agenda when IRA terrorists and cowards were busy murdering innocent civilians.

    What nonsense. Most normal Irish people condemned the IRA attacks in the UK.
    Matt Markinson wrote: »
    and it still doesn't change the glaring fact, that most such massacres to date in the west have in fact been carried out by people with legally held firearms. Yet gun lovers think the solution to gun killings is handing out more legally held guns so we can be achieve gun killings on the level of the USA to prevent gun crime. Lol.

    So the problem is guns rather than the ideology... There is something very sick and evil growing in Islamic communities. The so called minority of extremists is growing. Why are you an apologist for these people?


  • #553
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    How does this happen?

    Most can be assimilated and changed through exposure to education and economic opportunity and our superior enlightened values. The rest have to be forced.


  • #554
    Ally Dick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭Ally Dick


    How many of these potential sleeper cells are we going to be taking in from Syria...and depending on our authorities to vet thoroughly? Michael D thinks we don't need to do any due diligence


  • #555
    Matt Markinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 107 ✭✭Matt Markinson


    Severard wrote: »
    Actually yes they would be classed as criminals since you know they commited a crime. And since 2002 the majority of those massacres were carried out in gun-free zones, which defeats your argument. You've dug yourself into a hole on this one.

    and yet again the vast majority of these massacres were carried out by legally held firearms, from hungerford to columbine. The hole is all your own.


  • #556
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,293 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    Most can be assimilated and changed through exposure to education and economic opportunity and our superior enlightened values. The rest have to be forced.

    You mean like last nights shooter,

    Ya Know, The guy who was born in the US and had lived there all his life? :confused:


  • #557
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    stefanovich wrote: »
    What nonsense. Most normal Irish people condemned the IRA attacks in the UK.



    So the problem is guns rather than the ideology... There is something very sick and evil growing in Islamic communities. The so called minority of extremists is growing. Why are you an apologist for these people?

    So you don't think any attempts to restrict access to firearms is a good thing?


  • #558
    Polo_Mint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,504 ✭✭✭Polo_Mint


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    There's nothing like a good persecution to bring about peace and harmony eh?

    Did you know that Christian Government Leaders who thank the lord in public announcements have consent to kill innocent Muslim civilians in massive city attacks by all us Christians?

    All Christians around the world support these actions. No Question


  • #559
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    You mean like last nights shooter,

    Ya Know, The guy who was born in the US and had lived there all his life? :confused:

    He was identified as an Islamic extremist by law enforcement years ago but wasn't under surveillance according to the authorities.

    Anyone with openly Islamic extremist beliefs who cannot be persuaded to moderate their views should be kicked out of the country.


  • #560
    Cienciano
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,208 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    They should be forced to moderate their views until they are in line with the modern civilized values. If they seek to impose their backward values on secular democratic modern civilized societies they are in for a fight to the death. They either accept gay rights, women's rights, democratic values, freedom of religion, freedom of conscience, freedom of thought, sexual freedoms and the right to privacy or they get the hell back to the backward violent primitive dumps they crawled out of. If they moderate their views and adapt their religion to the modern world they can stay and they can be part of the future. Ultimately the entire world should become democratic free secular and tolerant. Backward savages religions need to die out and ignorant stupid cultures stuck in the past like Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism etc etc need to go if we hope to progress as a species.
    We did not fight Catholicism in Ireland and secure a largely secular society only to surrender to the same ignorant goatherd Bronze age beliefs of newcomers.
    So, supposed they don't change their way of thinking. Which they won't. What do you want to do then?


  • #561
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So you don't think any attempts to restrict access to firearms is a good thing?

    The problem we need to solve is Islamic extremism. This is not caused by access to guns.


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  • #562
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,293 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    He was identified as an Islamic extremist by law enforcement years ago but wasn't under surveillance according to the authorities.

    Anyone who with openly Islamic extremist beliefs who cannot be persuaded to moderate their views should be kicked out of the country.

    You said
    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    Most can be assimilated and changed through exposure to education and economic opportunity and our superior enlightened values. The rest have to be forced.

    Last nights shooter was BORN in the US and had lived there for 29 years. If he could be radicalised then exactly how much of this "assimilation" that you propose should people have to go through? Do you suggest arresting EVERY person in the states who is of Muslim descent and taking them off to camps for re-education?


  • #563
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    Cienciano wrote: »
    So, supposed they don't change their way of thinking. Which they won't. What do you want to do then?

    Kick them out. If they resist use force.


  • #564
    Polo_Mint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,504 ✭✭✭Polo_Mint


    Ally Dick wrote: »
    How many of these potential sleeper cells are we going to be taking in from Syria...and depending on our authorities to vet thoroughly? Michael D thinks we don't need to do any due diligence

    How do you keep out citizens of your own country


  • #565
    rjpf1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭rjpf1980


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    You said



    Last nights shooter was BORN in the US and had lived there for 29 years. If he could be radicalised then exactly how much of this "assimilation" that you propose should people have to go through? Do you suggest arresting EVERY person in the states who is of Muslim descent and taking them off to camps for re-education?

    If they have Muslim extremist views they should be re-educated or kicked out.

    Anyone who was born in the US and has pledge themselves to Muslim extremist views or indeed any extremist views political or religious that are at war with the principles of a democratic free society should be kicked out of the country.

    They don't like freedom and democracy and a free society? Leave.


  • #566
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,293 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    If they have Muslim extremist views they should be re-educated or kicked out.

    Anyone who was born in the US and has pledge themselves to Muslim extremist views or indeed any extremist views political or religious that are at war with the principles of a democratic free society should be kicked out of the country.

    They don't like freedom and democracy and a free society? Leave.

    Kicked out to where? What about radical Christians? Should they be re-educated or deported too?


  • #567
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,947 ✭✭✭20Cent


    rjpf1980 wrote: »
    If they have Muslim extremist views they should be re-educated or kicked out.

    how would you find out their views?


  • #568
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Unfortunately I think there is no other option now but to restrict the rights of muslims in the US. No access to guns. All mosques should be under video and audio surveillance. Any contact with extremists equals mandatory imprisonment. These things do not happen without the support and silence of the community.


  • #569
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    But sure no one's blaming all muslims, right?

    It's called quarantine.


  • #570
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,902 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Samaris wrote: »
    Does your routine marksman training require you to score "Expert" on a moving target surrounding by lots of other panicking moving targets in a dark, packed, deafening atmosphere? If there were two of you and both of you were trying to hit him, would you be able to identify which was the one shooting people and which was the one also trying to help? If a police officer started shooting, would you be able to immediately identify that he was a police officer and not to shoot him, or is there even the remotest possibility that you could mistake him for the shooter and open fire on them? Could they identify you as a military man trying to protect the people around you in the packed, panicked, dark, loud atmosphere?

    Just curious.

    Nope.

    You're missing the point here. I'm not saying that there are -any- good options. What I am saying is that at least there will be more options, some of which may be less bad. I figure my experience, or those of others similarly situated which I know are not unique, is not really any worse than that of a typical beat cop who also doesn't get "Charge into gunfight in a nightclub" as part of their standard training. And the difference is even more striking when the police, even if they did happen to have more applicable training, aren't actually on-site yet.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    A watchlist is not a conviction, but if there is any concern, then why allow weapons be sold to such a person?

    Is 'concern' a good enough reason to deny someone their rights and ability to live life? After all, 'concern' is usually an arbitrary decision made by a couple of administrative people to put you on the watch list.
    Matt Markinson wrote: »
    And tell us how much do other service personnel drink while stroking their guns in nightclubs ? What happens when one of these wanna be rambo's receives any perceived personal slight in a niteclub ? Just as many of these murdering psycho's in the past have also been military personal and 100% legal civilian firearms holders. As a non civilian firearms instructor, I firmly believe firearms have absolutely no place being carried in public / social events by off duty personal or civilians in any country that aspires to be a peaceful modern society. Gun love / worship / wanna be gun hero disease is a very very serious problem in the USA, it's even ingrained and idolised in their culture, televison and films.

    As a non-civilian firearms instructor, then, I presume you are quite familiar with how much servicemen drink while stroking their guns in nightclubs. By definition, those are the people you are instructing. Are you instructing them to stroke their firearms while drinking? Are you denying that designated drivers, who also don't drink much, go to nightclubs? Is there something about wearing a firearm which makes someone more likely to drink than someone who is wearing car keys? I also take issue with this line:

    "Just as many of these murdering psycho's in the past have also been military personal and 100% legal civilian firearms holders."

    I'm not so sure about the military personnel figures, and I'm quite sure that the vast majority of such murdering psychos were not, in fact, lawfully armed at the time they did their killing. The figures of crimes carried out by peronnel lawfully armed at the time the crimes were committed are very, very low. Indeed, Florida has some of the best public records online of the incidences of crime (of any type) involving those lawfully armed in public.


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  • #571
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    stefanovich wrote: »
    The problem we need to solve is Islamic extremism. This is not caused by access to guns.

    The ability to legally purchase firearms so easily in the US exacerbates these situations.


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