House Alarms - HELP!

jabaroon

Hi,

Anyone out there know anything about house alarms?
Bought a house with an alarm, but want to get new windows fitted. In order to do this I need something called the "engineers code" for the alarm.

Problem is, the company who installed the alarm -- for the previous occupants -- want me to sign up to a maintenance contract and charge whopping amounts for the contact AND to install new sensors on the new windows!

Nobody but the original installation company can carry out this work by virtue of them having this code....so Im stuck!

However, Im thinking that there MUST be a way to reset the system or something? Help please!!

Jab

BTW: The alarm is manafactured by "Aritech".

thegills

Hi,

The code can be bypassed (I think you reset the alarm). Most engineers however use the same group of codes, 1234 for example so a different engineer may be lucky and guess the code. Once this is done you can attach the new sensors into the alarm. This is usually a once off price which includes a warranty with the new sensors.

Make sure you put in alarm wire into the plaster for the new windows as it will be needed.

Can you tell me who put the alarm in, and who is asking for this maintenance money?

thegills

Samson

Try contacting Aritech directly, their factory is in Tallaght I think.
Ask for tech support and tell them the model you have, just tell 'em you need to change some sensors and you need the code, I'm sure they will help.

thegills

Aritech will refer you to the engineer code and say that you must talk to the engineer. Its like Philpis saying their DVD players can't be hacked but we all know they can.

Give me the details of the company looking to rob you. I know of 3 guys, all mates, who specialise in Aritech alarms, one of them was a designer.

thegills

jabaroon

Hi folks,

thanks for the help, I really appreciate it. I am pretty desparate at this stage!

I am reluctant to mention that name of the company on a public forum. However, I have sent a PM with the requested details.

I am also prepared to pay anyone a reasonable fee if they are able/willing to come and reset / get me access to <b>MY</b> system!

Its my system, I own it, I paid for it, it belongs to ME. No company is gona charge me stupid amounts of cash to use something that I own!

Ahhh...feeling better after that rant!! lol!!

Jab

viking

Apologies for going slightly OT...

Where can I purchase a decent house alarm that I can use in my house which is prewired, I've seen the ones in B&Q and there rubbish. Where do the one-man installers purchase their alarms from?

TIA,

viking

Victor

Originally posted by viking
Where can I purchase a decent house alarm that I can use in my house which is prewired, I've seen the ones in B&Q and there rubbish. Where do the one-man installers purchase their alarms from?

Aritech and the like. If you want an insurance discount and a monitoring system, you may need an approved installer to do it.

Cal

You could look Here as it has most systems details available.

Forum/Discussion, Detailed Explanations, manuals etc etc on loads of alarms.

Cal

RicardoSmith

Have to say I have had the same problem with my own alarm. They won't even fix it now that it has developed a fault because I wouldn't sign up for a maintance fee. Grrrr. My next alarm will be a DIY jobbie for sure.

I'd love to have one hooked up to a PC that I can dial into and it can dial out. I'd also like to hook up motion detectors to video cams etc. Anyone have any good links on this kinda stuff?

oneweb

Originally posted by viking
Apologies for going slightly OT...

Where can I purchase a decent house alarm that I can use in my house which is prewired, I've seen the ones in B&Q and there rubbish. Where do the one-man installers purchase their alarms from?

TIA,

viking

You can get them and all the bits n' pieces in T O'Reilly. They do Aritech (last time I checked).

jabaroon, there's an engineer option which will require an engineer code to access the whole system (as you know).
Sometimes though, the engineer may not have set the jumper pins on the board to require the code for a reset.

What model is it?

jabaroon

The amount of research that I have been doing!

I have found out so much stuff about alarms and methods of bypassing etc (eg: getting engineer code).....but my particular model appears to be pretty secure.

As said above, there is a jumper on the main board that when removed (and powered down) is intended to reset the board back to factory defaults. However, there is a LOCKOUT that can be added to prevent this (in software). This lockout is required to be added by NSAI certed systems. So if you system was installed by one of the larger and better known companies -- you can be virtually positive that the lock is active. The only chance you have is that the installer forgot!

In my case, the installer did NOT forget -- damit! You cant do any damage by removing the jumper and powering the system down. Just remove jumper, remove battery and remove mains power. Wait 20sec and then reconnect all. Go back to keypad (must be keypad 1 if you have multiple) and enter 1278. This is the default engineer code. If it works, your in business, if not, the engineer lock is active.

If the above fails, and depending on the Aritech system you have, there are other mechanisms for bypassing the engineering lock. But not for my board (CD34XX).

I spoke to Aritech directly and requested that they reset the board. eg: I send the board back to them. They denied that it was possible to do, but I know for a fact that it is possible. Im not happy that they would not do it. There is no security risk for them, its not like I am asking them to come out to my house! I am asking them to accept delivery of a board that I send to them and then they reset. The only reason I can this that they wouldn't do it is because they know I am screwed and will have to buy a new panel from them!

So, what other options do you have?
Well, you could disconnect your panel and send it here:
http://www.tech-man.com/unlockit.asp
These guys will unlock it for $15 + shipping. Its gona take a few weeks (eg: in the US), but its gona save you €100's if you take the alternative route which is to replace the system!

What am I doing?....
None of the above, I am persuing an alternative option at the moment!! Dont want to discuss atm. Will keep you folks updated!! lol!!

However, if there is anyone out there in a similar situation, feel free to PM me for advise or contacts etc.... The behaviour I have described is typical of some installation companies who know that you have to use their services and pay their prices if they dont disclose the code.

As regards advise for getting a new alarm?
PM me, there are some systems out there that you simply DONT want to get. One very popular system offered by a large company is known to by very weak and can be bypassed in 10 seconds.

My advise?.....install your own.
FAS run an alarm installation evening course for €150. It takes 6 weeks and at the end you will be able to install and maintain your own system. In fact, you will end up saving significant amounts of money -- and -- you will end up with a nicer system. You will know how to install things like dialers that you can use to call your mobile phone when the alarm goes off!

Phew! long post.
Jab

shabbyroad

The details of the FAS course look good - especially the ISO certification (home insurance requires ISO certified maintenance in order to get discount).
I also like the idea of self-monitoring (that is - messaging my mobile phone). What's the point in paying a call centre to call me when I can set up my system to call me directly !

Has anyone taken this course ? (next one is slated for September).

I've just received a €150 bill for upcoming maintenance - needless to day I'm not taking it, I'm going to wait a couple of months and do it myself.

Thanks - you've just saved me a few hundred euro.

(btw - are you on IRLSOC folder ?? I think I know you...)

jabaroon

Glad to be of assistance.
I just hope loads of people read this forum / thread and do similar.

Most people do some sort of DIY -- wire sockets, painting, wallpaper, putting up shelves etc.... Alarm installation is not that difficult, its just that its a black art. There is no --good-- books that you can buy. Why doesn't someone write one?....hmmm....I've an idea!!

As regards maintenance?.....ANYONE who pay's maintenance should be shot!! (that included me until about 1 year ago!!).

Maintenance is just a really nice way for alarm companies to cream you over the long term. The last time I had my "Yearly Service" -- covered by my maintenance, the engineer was in my house for 7 minutes (yes I timed it!). He walked around and did whats called a "walk test". It cost me €130 (which was the price of the maintenance contract).

Anyone out there who is good at their sums should be able to work out the hourly rate for that !!! lol!!

tomnoc

Why do you need the engineers code to fit new windows. i have
an astec 2 wire system self fitted and recently changed windows and I didn,t need engineers code.
The tamper circut will sound when you remove the first contact in each zone but when its silenced by user code you shoule be able to work freely on that zone after that.

Well thats what happened with my system anyway.

Redshift

You don't need the engineer code to add on sensors on most systems you just add them into the loop the existing sensors are on. At the end of the day the system is yours and the company has no right to withhold the engineer code from you if you request it. I am an alarm service engineer for a well known company in ireland and we do not withold the engineer code if a customer requests it subject to verification of course the code is different for each customer anyway so there is no security risk in giving the customer the code. Try a threat of legal action on them and see how you do. BTW I would be happy to help you with your alarm.

Ryan

RicardoSmith

Redshift - I might try that myself.

Redshift

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Redshift - I might try that myself.

No Prob M8 if you need any help at all with your alarm PM me and I will try to sort you out, it really pisses me off the way the industry cowboys treat customers, gives us all a bad name. I have never in all the years I have installed alarms enabled the engineer lock on a system which at the end of the day belongs to the customer it's like sim locking a mobile phone which I also hate.
BTW to the origional poster if your alarm is engineer locked you will have to obtain the code or return the system to the manufacturer for reprogramming
there is no way to bypass an engineer lock also incase any of you are wondering your alarms engineer code is not able to unset your alarm further more when your alarm is set access to the engineer menu is denied by all systems that are installed in Ireland at the moment.

jabaroon

All,

As mentioned previously, I needed to get my engineer code. Having tried every option under the sun, I finally managed to get it from the alarm company.

I threathened legal action and made some calls to the NSAI to get their support. Very quickly an engineer arrived out to change to engineer code to something generic and then gave it to me! Nice one!

A word of advise to anyone else in a similar situation. When requesting the engineering code, be carefull how you ask the question. If you say "I want the engineering code", they are likely to say "NO", because they are not going to give you their companys code. Instead say "Can you change the code to something non descript and then give it to me" -- or "Can you reset my engineering code back to factory default?" (1278 for Aritech).

Reason I say this is because the company in question argued with me in the end, saying -- "Well, you asked us for OUR engineering code, we could never give that to you. We misunderstood, you should have asked to have it reset"

Hope this helps!
Jab

derek99

Originally posted by jabaroon
Hi,

Anyone out there know anything about house alarms?
Bought a house with an alarm, but want to get new windows fitted. In order to do this I need something called the "engineers code" for the alarm.

Problem is, the company who installed the alarm -- for the previous occupants -- want me to sign up to a maintenance contract and charge whopping amounts for the contact AND to install new sensors on the new windows!

Nobody but the original installation company can carry out this work by virtue of them having this code....so Im stuck!

However, Im thinking that there MUST be a way to reset the system or something? Help please!!

Jab

BTW: The alarm is manafactured by "Aritech".

K1

every one is missing the point as to why alarm panels are engineer locked.. This is for the protection of you the customer. Any burgler with a bit of cop on can walk into your house power down your alarm factory default it and disarm it with the original code. this could be done in less than a minute. Cop on to yourselves thinking its all about money, you get what you pay for. Call any tech support line now & you pay, never mind getting an engineer to call to your house. If you are all so sure you can DIY it why are you here looking for help??

rooferPete

Hi,

K1 may have missed one vital piece of info which I fully agree with, the other piece is your insurance company gives you a discount for having an alarm installed.

If for any reason you need to make a claim where your alarm may have been a deterrant the insurance company do not have to pay out if the alarm is not certified to meet their standards.

Each insurance company have different clauses in the policy, so make sure an alarm not monitored by an approved service provider meets their standards.

The annual maintenance is part of the discount provision with a lot of insurance companies.

So read the small print or don't take the discount.

K1

Your right pete there are a number of things that need to be taken into consideration re service contracts.
1) If you enter into a maintaince contract lets say it costs €150 a year , & your alarm goes ballistic at 3 or 4 in the morning the Alarm company are obliged to get it sorted . If you dont have a contract who are you going to get to call out at that hour & if by some miricle you do get an answer on the phone from some company how much do you think you will be charged for emergency service?
2) With a maintaince contract your alarm system is serviced & checked at least once a year. The country is full of people who have found out their alarm wasn't working only after some kind burgler checked it for jimself & then helped himself!

It's as simple as this no matter what way you argue it,
1)If your alarm is not engineer locked it can be bypassed.
2) If as an unqualified person you think you know how to look after & maintain your own alarm how much do you think the burgler knows???
2) How many excuses do you think an insurance would need to refuse to pay out on a claim??

K1

Samson wrote:

Try contacting Aritech directly, their factory is in Tallaght I think.
Ask for tech support and tell them the model you have, just tell 'em you need to change some sensors and you need the code, I'm sure they will help.

Are you for real, cop on to yourself. Do you honestly think the manufacturer of an alarm system is going to tell some stranger on the phone if there was a way to bypass their security system?? They would be sued by every person who has one of their systems. Would The Bank tell you if there was a way to get free money from a pass machine??, would vodafone tell you how to make free mobile calls COP ON!!!!!

K1

Dont go near T O Reilly's they will rob you look up any security wholesaler ( not electrical) call in person they will all happily sell to you if you offer to pay cash!

fred funk }{

Im installing alarms over ten years. The only time an engineer code is needed when refiting sensors is when the tamper reset facility is programmed which basicly disables the system from use if a tamper condition has accured.
<Snip>

We get calls all the time asking for the engineer code but we never give it out, They usually pay a call out charge in the end for us to either default the panel or just change the code.

If anyone wants to do a self install stay away from all that B&Q,Argos ****e!
Go with the two wire system from Astec.

K1

Spot on Silver knight (is that a hint as to who you work for) I'll let Mr anderson know you endorse his products!!

Alun

I was given the Engineer's code for my Aritech alarm system by the installation engineer from a well-known multinational alarm installer, but I suspect that was only because I demonstrated to him by the questions I was asking him during the installation (regarding coexistence with an Eircom DSL installation) that I woudn't abuse it and knew what I was doing. It comes in handy every now and then if I want to fiddle about with the phone wiring and to be able to do a test call afterwards to check it can still contact the alarm centre, or to reset the time when it occasionally fails to recognise the summer time / winter time changeover for some obscure reason.

fred funk }{

K1 wrote:

Spot on Silver knight (is that a hint as to who you work for) I'll let Mr anderson know you endorse his products!!

LOL! no its not a hint, I know frank very well and we were one of the first company to use his products and yes i do endorse their products because they are very reliable and very quick to install, We done a house a couple of months ago in less than two hours, Now it was all surface wiring and it was only downstairs with a beam upstairs and all the rooms were empty so there was no stuff to move around.

fred funk }{

Alun wrote:

I was given the Engineer's code for my Aritech alarm system by the installation engineer from a well-known multinational alarm installer, but I suspect that was only because I demonstrated to him by the questions I was asking him during the installation (regarding coexistence with an Eircom DSL installation) that I woudn't abuse it and knew what I was doing. It comes in handy every now and then if I want to fiddle about with the phone wiring and to be able to do a test call afterwards to check it can still contact the alarm centre, or to reset the time when it occasionally fails to recognise the summer time / winter time changeover for some obscure reason.

He gave it to you because he didnt care if you knew it or not. Most engineers who work for large companys will gladly share the engineer code.
Another reason why the code is not given out is to stop people fiddling with the programing and getting us back out saying there something wrong with the system. (not saying you do LOL!)

Lex Luthor

Silver Knight wrote:

The only time an engineer code is needed when refiting sensors is when the tamper reset facility is programmed which basicly disables the system from use if a tamper condition has accured.

or when you want to do a walk test.

the guy who installed my alarm, changed the eng code to one for me which I could remember. That way I can go in and do a walk test every year and check all the sensors.
I also added a shock sensor to a zone recently and needed to change the shock attributes for Gross & Pulse and I could do that also.
As far as I'm concerned, if you bough the alarm, then the code shoudl be yours. Definately change from teh default one when it goes in, but make sure you get the new one.

lomb

yeah the next time the panel needs changing i will buy a new aritech panel with a default code and change it. easy to install if the wires are there.

can i ask if i physically removed my panel and brought it down to aritech in tallaght could they default it for me to the factory settings for a fee? how much would they charge? thanks

fred funk }{

lomb wrote:

yeah the next time the panel needs changing i will buy a new aritech panel with a default code and change it. easy to install if the wires are there.

can i ask if i physically removed my panel and brought it down to aritech in tallaght could they default it for me to the factory settings for a fee? how much would they charge? thanks

No they will not default the panel, They wont entertain you at all.

Lex Luther: A walk test will not tell u if a sensor is faulty or not. Its only good for telling u if the sensor is still connected to the system. The only way of throughly testing sesors/contacts is with a meter. You seem to have the basic cop-on about alarms so your an exception to the rule because your average joe would only mess the programming up.

I understand your point regarding the customer have complete control over the alarm because the payed for it, All mobile phones are locked with codes also and they dont give out the codes to easy. They are locked to protect the programming of the phone/alarm and also to insure future work on that system.
When i do my own work i dont use engineer reset because it can be a pain in the arse with silly call backs. I do lock all my panels though.

K1

Lex Luthor wrote:

or when you want to do a walk test.

the guy who installed my alarm, changed the eng code to one for me which I could remember. That way I can go in and do a walk test every year and check all the sensors.
I also added a shock sensor to a zone recently and needed to change the shock attributes for Gross & Pulse and I could do that also.
As far as I'm concerned, if you bough the alarm, then the code shoudl be yours. Definately change from teh default one when it goes in, but make sure you get the new one.

lex going by your spelling I wouldn't let you use a calculator let alone programme an alarm system!!!
PS what are you going to tell your insurance company if you are ever broken into & the look for the engineer reports & service records???( it has happened believe it or not!)

lomb

K1 wrote:

lex going by your spelling I wouldn't let you use a calculator let alone programme an alarm system!!!
PS what are you going to tell your insurance company if you are ever broken into & the look for the engineer reports & service records???( it has happened believe it or not!)

u make them up and tell them u are competent to do it.

K1

lomb wrote:

yeah the next time the panel needs changing i will buy a new aritech panel with a default code and change it. easy to install if the wires are there.

can i ask if i physically removed my panel and brought it down to aritech in tallaght could they default it for me to the factory settings for a fee? how much would they charge? thanks

lomb ,Aritech are the manufacturers not the suppliers In most cases .with the exception of a few alarm companys. they only deal with wholesalers even most the alarm companys have to return thier faulty goods to the supplier the purchased from and not direct to aritech.. eg if you car breaks down you go to the garage not to Toyota etc..

K1

lomb wrote:

u make them up and tell them u are competent to do it.

when the neighbours complain about alarms going off all day and night it's usually the fault of lads like you. If alarm systems are so simple why do insurance companys , The NSAI & the Guards insist on standards being adhered to??

lomb

K1 wrote:

when the neighbours complain about alarms going off all day and night it's usually the fault of lads like you. If alarm systems are so simple why do insurance companys , The NSAI & the Guards insist on standards being adhered to??

i have sucessfully maintained my alarm for 7years, replacing sensors as they go bad. this is the main problem with them. the cowboy who wired my alarm put every window on 1 zone, the front door on a different zone, whereas he should have put windows on several zones.

anyway to find a defective sensor, place a voltmeter on resistance test across the sensor inside and knock the window. if the sensor is good the resistance goes up and STRAIGHT back to zero. if its bad it floats and only gradually returns to zero.

when the alarm goes off randomly i check all 25 sensors as the panal is useless and doesnt tell me which zone it is due to the cowboy wiring.

anything else-yes panels fail and unfortunately no one repairs them these days. a new one can be had at a wholesale electrician for about 180 euros
i have found aritech cs series incredibly reliable.
12volt batteries fail in panels and the alarm goes off after a short power cut.

bell boxes also have a battery in them and these fail too.

so u see i am competent to service the alarm. however it is a trade like any other and i dont begrudge any engineer making a living which they deserve, i just rather repair my own alarm, its very satisfying to fix something.

edit- if after checking all the sensors, and replacing the bell box battery and panel battery if these are old the alarm continues to go off randomly i would replace the panel. it isnt rocket science, the aritecs panels come with full instructions

lomb

K1 wrote:

lomb ,Aritech are the manufacturers not the suppliers In most cases .with the exception of a few alarm companys.

maybe so but in the instructions it says that if the engineer code is lost then the only way to reset it is to return the panel to aritec for resetting on the bench so surprising that aritech in tallaght wont even give a customer the time of the day. says alot for customer service, and bear in mind there isnt any harm in them doing it as u are physically taking the panel to them and they are resetting it so no trade secrets are being given out

K1

Lomb if you are as competent as you say fair play to you , you seem to have an idea of the workings. Tell me though why dont you split up the zones to make life easier. Even with 1 x 4 core loop feeding you 25 windows ( that the very min cable that could be used) you could split them up into 3 zones (5 zones on 6 core etc.) that means you would only need to check around 8 sensors insted of 25

lomb

K1 wrote:

Lomb if you are as competent as you say fair play to you , you seem to have an idea of the workings. Tell me though why dont you split up the zones to make life easier. Even with 1 x 4 core loop feeding you 25 windows ( that the very min cable that could be used) you could split them up into 3 zones (5 zones on 6 core etc.) that means you would only need to check around 8 sensors insted of 25

that might be a trick question im not sure my understanding of it was that basically he put all the sensors on one loop and as such that is only wire going into the panel, along with the door wire, the bell box wire, the panick loop and the remote wire.

so how can i rewire say half the sensors onto a different loop without rewiring those sensors. anyway its all done and the wires are hidden as they were put in during construction. its ok anyway i know which sensors go bad, so i always check the obvious ones first. any ones in a humid room with condensation, door vibe sensors as these are subject to a lot of vibration on opening etc, roof window sensors as these are opened and closed alot, basically frequently 'used' sensors

lomb

K1 wrote:

Lomb if you are as competent as you say fair play to you , you seem to have an idea of the workings. Tell me though why dont you split up the zones to make life easier. Even with 1 x 4 core loop feeding you 25 windows ( that the very min cable that could be used) you could split them up into 3 zones (5 zones on 6 core etc.) that means you would only need to check around 8 sensors insted of 25

are u saying i take the existing 4 loop cable and forget about the tamper system on 2 of those wires and use the other 2 wires on a different zone. i suppose i could do that but i mite need the engineer code to disable the tamper system or fiddle in the panel most probably and dummy short the tamper system so it appears as a closed loop.
still a bit of work, its easier just checking sensors, i have a bad one every 6 months or so (house 14 years old) and i buy my sensors in 3's so alway have one handy if 1 needs to be replaced.

K1

lomb wrote:

are u saying i take the existing 4 loop cable and forget about the tamper system on 2 of those wires and use the other 2 wires on a different zone. i suppose i could do that but i mite need the engineer code to disable the tamper system or fiddle in the panel most probably and dummy short the tamper system so it appears as a closed loop.
still a bit of work, its easier just checking sensors, i have a bad one every 6 months or so (house 14 years old) and i buy my sensors in 3's so alway have one handy if 1 needs to be replaced.

you dont need to loose the tamper and you dont just get 2 zones, you can get 3 zones on a 4 core cable using duel eol resistors & a common negitive for all 3 zones, If the loop is wired with 6 core you could return 5 seperate zones to the panel using this configuration....

K1

Redshift wrote:

No Prob M8 if you need any help at all with your alarm PM me and I will try to sort you out, it really pisses me off the way the industry cowboys treat customers, gives us all a bad name. I have never in all the years I have installed alarms enabled the engineer lock on a system which at the end of the day belongs to the customer it's like sim locking a mobile phone which I also hate.
BTW to the origional poster if your alarm is engineer locked you will have to obtain the code or return the system to the manufacturer for reprogramming
there is no way to bypass an engineer lock also incase any of you are wondering your alarms engineer code is not able to unset your alarm further more when your alarm is set access to the engineer menu is denied by all systems that are installed in Ireland at the moment.

You say you are an engineer with a large company, By not locking the panels you are compromising you customers security by leaving it vunerable. So what you are saying is that when you leave a jobyou are fully aware that thier system can be bypassed by any decent burgler whiten a minute or less. You are INCOMPETENT and should not be allowed to fit a plug let alone a security system. There is no way it is safe to leave any panel without an engineer lock, the methods of resetting panels is too freely available on any of the manufacturers web sites.. (PS a good engineer is able to get into a locked alarm panel,(this requires a decent knowledge of the control panel itself, so I am not surprised you dont know how to do it) You said you never lock a panel is this your decision of your companys.?? If its the companys I think you shold name your company so as your customers can get in a competent engineer to make sure their system is secure..ITS LADS LIKE YOU!! WHO GIVE THE INDUSTRY A BAD NAME

fred funk }{

lomb wrote:

are u saying i take the existing 4 loop cable and forget about the tamper system on 2 of those wires and use the other 2 wires on a different zone. i suppose i could do that but i mite need the engineer code to disable the tamper system or fiddle in the panel most probably and dummy short the tamper system so it appears as a closed loop.
still a bit of work, its easier just checking sensors, i have a bad one every 6 months or so (house 14 years old) and i buy my sensors in 3's so alway have one handy if 1 needs to be replaced.

25 sensors on one zone! sorry i just noticed that now, Mate you have to sort that out, If you cant manage to bring them back on single cables at least split them up the best you can, Its a recipe for many problems.
How often does your alarm false alarm?...be honest
Ideally every sensor should have its own zone but thats not practical domestically.

Redshift

K1 wrote:

You say you are an engineer with a large company, By not locking the panels you are compromising you customers security by leaving it vunerable. So what you are saying is that when you leave a jobyou are fully aware that thier system can be bypassed by any decent burgler whiten a minute or less. You are INCOMPETENT and should not be allowed to fit a plug let alone a security system. There is no way it is safe to leave any panel without an engineer lock, the methods of resetting panels is too freely available on any of the manufacturers web sites.. (PS a good engineer is able to get into a locked alarm panel,(this requires a decent knowledge of the control panel itself, so I am not surprised you dont know how to do it) You said you never lock a panel is this your decision of your companys.?? If its the companys I think you shold name your company so as your customers can get in a competent engineer to make sure their system is secure..ITS LADS LIKE YOU!! WHO GIVE THE INDUSTRY A BAD NAME

Jeez did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning??
I find you to be a presumptuous idiot but I will humour you with a reply in any case.

1, Did you ever think about the fact that if a burglar gets access to the control panel that an engineer lock is not going to stop him from disabling the system. That’s why I install the control panel in a secure location so at the very least the digi will have time to fire in if the intruder targets the panel
Besides if they have the technical knowledge you suppose they might then it's likely they will know some of the quicker ways of silencing an alarm. At the end of the day alarms are a deterrent and nothing more they are not infallible or immune to being tampered with / bypassed regardless of the engineer lock status.

2, I have worked for a few companies over the 10 years I am doing this and none of them locked their panels, (Policy not my choice in case your interested) The company I am currently with does alot of take overs from other companies big and small and I have found very few of those to be locked infact it's usually only small outfits with a dubious quality of workmanship who do it, perhaps it's the only way they can hold onto their customers.

3, as I said earlier you are a presumptuous idiot to come on here and start flaming someone you don't know. You have no idea who I am or of my level of competence.

4, what do you think of the larger systems like Aplex and 3GS which is what I do mostly. These systems are good enough for banks and high security applications like that and yet they don't even have an engineer lock facility....
Again it's not really a problem because a competent engineer will ensure that panel itself is in a secure location.

Anyway go on back to your little six zone panels and enjoy life safe in the knowlege that you are more competant than nearly every other installer in the country, you really are great and I'm sure your customers think so too since you can force their loyalty.

Edit: You might be interested in this article Article: How do you justify this engineer lock-out?

Particularly this Quote :

The facility allows unscrupulous installers to retain future work by an illegal method which they are and will continue to get away with.

lomb

Silver Knight wrote:

How often does your alarm false alarm?...be honest
Ideally every sensor should have its own zone but thats not practical domestically.

never unless a sensor goes bad, its very reliable

lomb

K1 wrote:

you dont need to loose the tamper and you dont just get 2 zones, you can get 3 zones on a 4 core cable using duel eol resistors & a common negitive for all 3 zones, If the loop is wired with 6 core you could return 5 seperate zones to the panel using this configuration....

from what u are saying the same line would be carrying several frequencies? nah i think it complicates everything, its only 4 core unfortunately, not 6.
it all works 100% so i will leave it alone

K1

Redshift wrote:

Jeez did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning??
I find you to be a presumptuous idiot but I will humour you with a reply in any case.

1, Did you ever think about the fact that if a burglar gets access to the control panel that an engineer lock is not going to stop him from disabling the system. That’s why I install the control panel in a secure location so at the very least the digi will have time to fire in if the intruder targets the panel
Besides if they have the technical knowledge you suppose they might then it's likely they will know some of the quicker ways of silencing an alarm. At the end of the day alarms are a deterrent and nothing more they are not infallible or immune to being tampered with / bypassed regardless of the engineer lock status.

2, I have worked for a few companies over the 10 years I am doing this and none of them locked their panels, (Policy not my choice in case your interested) The company I am currently with does alot of take overs from other companies big and small and I have found very few of those to be locked infact it's usually only small outfits with a dubious quality of workmanship who do it, perhaps it's the only way they can hold onto their customers.

3, as I said earlier you are a presumptuous idiot to come on here and start flaming someone you don't know. You have no idea who I am or of my level of competence.

4, what do you think of the larger systems like Aplex and 3GS which is what I do mostly. These systems are good enough for banks and high security applications like that and yet they don't even have an engineer lock facility....
Again it's not really a problem because a competent engineer will ensure that panel itself is in a secure location.

Anyway go on back to your little six zone panels and enjoy life safe in the knowlege that you are more competant than nearly every other installer in the country, you really are great and I'm sure your customers think so too since you can force their loyalty.

Edit: You might be interested in this article Article: How do you justify this engineer lock-out?

Particularly this Quote :

Red shift this is really typical of the response i normally hear from engineers who just because they work for a big company it makes them important or competent.
Most of these companys dont bother with an engineer lock because of thier lagre turnover of staff (possibly because THEY ARE incompetent),which makes it almost impossible to keep thier codes to themselves. We also spend a lot of our time with take overs, usually because the customer wants thier system brought up to standard.
Answer me this where do you put your control panels that you feel they are so secure?
Even if you feel the panel is in a secure location does it not make sense even to yourself ,to provide that extra line of security of locking the panel?No matter what answers you give the following is undisputable!!
YOU ,OR RATHER YOUR COMPANY, ARE HAPPY TO COMMISSION AND WALK AWAY FROM AN INSTALLATION KNOWING THAT IT CAN BE BYPASSED, If it is not your decision but your companys to leave thier panels unlocked then it is they that are incompetent,but if you feel your installations are so good that you will never need that extra line of security then it is you who are presumtious (Never a good thing in this line of business)
In reply to your question on the Aplex & 3GS systems, We have installed them in a number of locations, but these are usually in, like you said , the likes of banks or large office blocks who have other lines of security to compement the alarm. Also because of the size of these buildings finding the alarm panel would be next to impossible,

K1

lomb wrote:

from what u are saying the same line would be carrying several frequencies? nah i think it complicates everything, its only 4 core unfortunately, not 6.
it all works 100% so i will leave it alone

no really lomb, If you have 3 zones on pairs on side of each of those pairs is a common negetive and can be used to feed all 3 zones therfore only a single strand is needed to return each zone to the panel. If you want a hand let me know you seem to have more cop on than mose here

Lex Luthor

K1 wrote:

lex going by your spelling I wouldn't let you use a calculator let alone programme an alarm system!!!

It's not my spelling, I swear...its this damn keyboard. somebody keeps swapping the keys around.

K1 wrote:

PS what are you going to tell your insurance company if you are ever broken into & the look for the engineer reports & service records???( it has happened believe it or not!)

not too bothered...I may not be a qualified alarm installation engineer, but I have a diploma in electronic engineering which should shut them up. BTW, my insurance policy does not state that I have to have service records.

Also, on the walk test....as far as I can see, if you do a walk test and test every sensor and it sets off teh alarm, that's good enough for me that it's working.
We've had numerous attempts in the last 9 yrs of break-ins here and the alarm (touch wood) has gone off each time. They've tried the usual by banging teh windows first to see if its alarmed.

lomb

K1 wrote:

no really lomb, If you have 3 zones on pairs on side of each of those pairs is a common negetive and can be used to feed all 3 zones therfore only a single strand is needed to return each zone to the panel. If you want a hand let me know you seem to have more cop on than mose here

ahh i c! i understand exactly what u are saying. thanks very much for ur offer but i think il leave it alone as it has worked well for me for many years only needing the panel changes 7 years ago and changing the odd 15 year old sensor every now and then. the guy who was very nice told me that because yer man put so many sensors on the one zone it would b dodgy putting any more sensors onto the same zone (originally wanted to wire up the attick doors in case anyone entered thru the roof but hey its not fort knox so i dont worry to much now!

yeah we had a attempted breakin a few years ago they smashed the glass and took off when the alarm went off, cant trust anyone to keep their mitts off ones belongings any more, people never even used to look their doors :mad: