Finally, "Cheap" ADSL is here

Ardmore

Originally posted by dahamsta
No thinner than I find your constant black propaganda and misrepresentation of the facts.

I don't deny that Muck propagandises on the IrelandOffline forum, but I believe that he's the most consistent factual reporter on this forum, backing up his comments and assertions with evidence whenever humanly possible. I think you should withdraw that remark. Calling him a liar isn't exactly constructive either, when his commentary on line rental is quite obviously considered opinion, an opinion that many others hold. It's difficult to decide who's right or wrong - if anyone /can/ be right or wrong - but he has provided valid arguments for his beliefs.

Mucks contribution to this forum shouldn't excuse deliberate distortion of the facts when he choses to do so. If anything, such distortions simple call into question the validity of some of his other positions.

I've already made the point on another thread that I don't care if Muck (and others like him) insists that he will have to pay €75 a month to get DSL. I do very strongly object to him telling other people that DSL "costs" €75/month, a) because it's a lie, and b) because it will discourage people from availing of the service if they don't realize that he is deliberately distorting the facts in order to discourage them from taking up the service. It's as despicable as Eircoms insistence on quoting ex-VAT prices.

I would have no objection to people insisting that DSL costs "an additional €54/month".

We don't see anyone seriously claiming that DSL really only costs €34 a month because "anyone who's serious about the internet already has a second line which they can now get rid of", but that's the sort of logic behind Mucks argument.

spongebob

Kroner Calculator Here for ya Ardmore

Last time I looked there were 15ISH EU members and 3 or 4 on the way in for sure, therefore I will look beyond the UK for comparisons every now and then if you dont mind. The UK has a relatively high population density and is not really comparable to Ireland on that basis.

My criteria for selecting Sweden or Finland is well known to you but in your M50 cocoon you refuse to note the reasons why.

BOTH COUNTRIES have a population density which is MUCH LOWER than Ireland, IE OUR POPULATION DENSITY IS 4 or 5 TIMES THAT of FINLAND AND SWEDEN . 4 or 5 TIMES means that POPULATION DENSITY in IRELAND is FAR GREATER than SWEDEN or FINLAND.

THEY LIVE IN SMALLER HOUSEHOLDS THAN WE DO

NEVERTHELESS, they have ALMOST UNIVERSAL BROADBAND AVAILIBILITY including in areas BEYOND the ARTIC CIRCLE , PEOPLE IN LAPPLAND WHO LIVE IN TENTS CAN GET BROADBAND, NORTHSIDE DUBLIN PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE M50 can NOT.

SWEDEN and FINLAND CHARGE 60-70% of what EIRCOM charge for ANALOGUE LINE RENTAL despite having HIGHER VAT RATES included in these FAR LOWER PRICES.

so do tell me

WHAT IS EIRCOM DOING RIGHT COMPARED TO THOSE SCANDINAVIANS?

Density is also an issue in south Dublin.....not of the population kind as it transpires.

M

MDR

Originally posted by Ardmore
DSL will cost €54 +VAT for now. To paraphrase the T&Cs used by UK providers it "Requires an eircom line".

Point of clarification the basic DSL product is €54.45 including VAT.

With this sort of negativity, is it any wonder we have such low scores on all sorts of ratings.

All the optimisim in the world, won't paint the broadband situation (or the standard of living situation any prettier). I do agree with your sentiment to find the middle ground, but in this case a year down the road with IrelandOffline having seen dreadfully stats over and over again, I can't keep my head in the sand anymore.

To overcome a problem, you must first identify the problem.

Also we are all adults here, alot of us have given alot of hours to IOFFL, Muck has contributed more than most, he deserves a measure of respect. And he has the committee's blessing for alot of what he says ...

Ardmore

Originally posted by me
we have a significantly higer discretionary income than in most other EU countries
Originally posted by MDR
I would be very interested to see hard stats to back this claim up ?

There was an article in the irish times a long time ago that I bookmarked, at the time, but you need a subscription to read it now, unfortunately: Irish workers less taxed than most in euro zone Since that time, our income tax burden has substantially decreased. While young (and some not-so-young) people are being rack-rented in Dublin in particular, in general we have a higher discretionary income than our european counterparts - just check out the pubs!

pete

Originally posted by Ardmore
We don't see anyone seriously claiming that DSL really only costs €34 a month because "anyone who's serious about the internet already has a second line which they can now get rid of", but that's the sort of logic behind Mucks argument.

Ermmm that's exactly how i'll be calculating the actual cost of DSL to me.

I have a second line that is used exclusively for net access, a leftover from the Surf No Limits fiasco* that got us all here in the first place. As soon as DSL is available to me (& UTV get sorted) i'll be able to dispose of this second line.

The nett result is that DSL will wind up costing me (in real terms) DSL cost - 1 x eircom Line Rental.

Grand so.


* = And I hope we all remember just why ESAT brought us all together when the time comes to choose a DSL provider. I know I will.

De Rebel

As the one who started this thread could I ask either of the Mods to please lock it, its off topic and yet again Ardmore has managed to turn a reasonable thread into a vindictive and personalised slagging match.

Its a pity that this guy continues to get away with damaging the usefulness of the forum by introducing a nasty tone on a regular basis.

LFCFan

Originally posted by Ardmore
If you don't want to talk about "Joe Street", don't respond to posts about "Joe Street". It wasn't my phrase, I was responding to someone elses point.

I was just pointing to the fact that 'Joe Street' in the UK has a lot more on offer when it comes to DSL/Cable so there's no point comparing us to them.

You seem to do enough talking through it. I specifically said 5 or 6 providers - I can get broadband from IBB, LEAP, IrishWISP, ESAT and Eircom (not to mention resellers of eircom and ESATs products).

You're area can get all those providers. What about the other 98% of the country? I have 0 providers even though I live in an area with probably the highest concentration of hi-tech firms. You can't compare one small pocket of South Dublin with the whole of the UK.

Ardmore

Originally posted by De Rebel
As the one who started this thread could I ask either of the Mods to please lock it, its off topic and yet again Ardmore has managed to turn a reasonable thread into a vindictive and personalised slagging match.

Its a pity that this guy continues to get away with damaging the usefulness of the forum by introducing a nasty tone on a regular basis.

I take exception to that. I was "accused" of being an eircom employee. I wasn't the one who started the personal attacks, or who dragged the thread off topic by going on about line rental either (step forward LFCfan) or comparisons with the cost in other countries.

As for "damaging the usefulness of the forum", it's precisely because I recognize the value of these forums that I object to the deceitfulness of people who distort the facts. IOFFL went through some trauma of it's own in it's early days to ensure that it wasn't just an "anti-ESAT" pressure group, but could be a force for positive change in the market as a whole.

Ardmore

Originally posted by LFCFan
I was just pointing to the fact that 'Joe Street' in the UK has a lot more on offer when it comes to DSL/Cable so there's no point comparing us to them.

So now we should only compare ourselves to people who don't have any choice between DSL and Cable? We should only compare ourselves to people who are in exactly the same position that we're in? Did you have anyone particular in mind?

You're area can get all those providers.[/B]

Yeah, I know I ALREADY SAID THAT!

What about the other 98% of the country? I have 0 providers even though I live in an area with probably the highest concentration of hi-tech firms. You can't compare one small pocket of South Dublin with the whole of the UK.

FFS - I was talking about the US when I made that point! I was making the point that most people in the US, just like most people in Ireland, don't have a choice of 5 or 6 providers, they're lucky if they have 2. And some people don't have any, usually because it's not economically viable to provide the service to them.

There's a simple reason why companies aren't knocking your door down to provide you with a phone line and DSL for under €50 a month, including VAT - they can't make a profit at that price.

LFCFan

Originally posted by Ardmore
or who dragged the thread off topic by going on about line rental either (step forward LFCfan)

All I said was, the max I would pay for ADSL was €50 including line rental. My point being, if I am going to be billed a standard amount by €ircon I want it to be as low as possible. Like people have said before, whether line rental should be used in calculating the cost of DSL or not is a matter of opinion but when you look at it my way I think it should. You are paying €21 a month for a line from €ircon. Now they are providing another service on the same line so I believe that if you sign up for ADSL, you should get billed one fee per month for that line. When you get ISDN the line rental goes up to include the cost of the ISDN service. Why not the same for ADSL? I don't want to be charged 2 fees for the same line.

Ardmore

Originally posted by pete
Ermmm that's exactly how i'll be calculating the actual cost of DSL to me.

I know - and you won't be alone. But you're not going around trying to tell people who have a single phone line that DSL "only costs €34 a month".

LFCFan

Originally posted by Ardmore
So now we should only compare ourselves to people who don't have any choice between DSL and Cable? We should only compare ourselves to people who are in exactly the same position that we're in? Did you have anyone particular in mind?

Ok! What I was trying to say was.....I said we want ADSL at around €30 a month. You said 'Joe Street' in the UK is paying around €45 to BT. I said there are more providers who offer lower cost products. In other words, in the UK they have a choice and if it's their choice to pay the highest rate going then that's their choice. Here we don't have a choice. It's either pay the high price for a very lowend product or feck off.

There's a simple reason why companies aren't knocking your door down to provide you with a phone line and DSL for under €50 a month, including VAT - they can't make a profit at that price.

Other countries do it so why can't we? The No. 1 reason why €ircon spent years delaying ADSL/FRIACO and are still messing us around with prices is because they are making huge profits from Dial up. It's got nothing to do with not being able to provide a low cost product.

Ardmore

Originally posted by LFCFan
You are paying €21 a month for a line from €ircon. Now they are providing another service on the same line so I believe that if you sign up for ADSL, you should get billed one fee per month for that line.

Voice mail cost €1.50 a month or so "on the same line". Call blocking or call forwarding cost various amounts "on the same line". They are itemised as seperate amounts on a single bill, because they are separate, optional services.

When you get ISDN the line rental goes up to include the cost of the ISDN service.

No, when you get ISDN, you are effectively charged for 2 lines, because you can make 2 calls at the same time, and have 2 phone numbers. It demonstrates what a sham the notion of "line rental" actually is, because it's still exactly the same piece of copper that you only paid half the rental for before you got ISDN, but it does demonstrate that you're actually paying for "dial tone" service rather than the actual piece of copper. And DSL is just an additional service, like voicemail, or call blocking, or other optional services.

Why not the same for ADSL? I don't want to be charged 2 fees for the same line.

Have you ever actually seen a phone bill?

Ardmore

Originally posted by LFCFan
Ok! What I was trying to say was.....I said we want ADSL at around €30 a month. You said 'Joe Street' in the UK is paying around €45 to BT.

Here just go back and read what I said, instead of misrepresenting me.

LFCFan

Originally posted by Ardmore
Voice mail cost €1.50 a month or so "on the same line". Call blocking or call forwarding cost various amounts "on the same line". They are itemised as seperate amounts on a single bill, because they are separate, optional services.

an extra €1.50 is a lot different to an extra €109 bi-monthly. Do €ircon bill monthy or bi-monthly for ADSL? Is it a seperate bill or is it part of your phone bill? You're right, Line Rental is a sham.

Have you ever actually seen a phone bill?

Of course I've seen a phone bill and at the moment mine is nice and small, paying only line rental to those thieving barstewards(thank u UTVip). Just to backup my point about line rental + ADSL. I sent a mail to my work mates(about 50 of them) asking them would they get in ADSL at €54 a month if their exchange was upgraded. 21 of them asked if the €54 included line rental and for the vast majority of people in Ireland this is gonna be one of the first questions they ask.

naitkris

Originally posted by Muck

My criteria for selecting Sweden or Finland is well known to you but in your M50 cocoon you refuse to note the reasons why.

BOTH COUNTRIES have a population density which is MUCH LOWER than Ireland, IE OUR POPULATION DENSITY IS 4 or 5 TIMES THAT of FINLAND AND SWEDEN . 4 or 5 TIMES means that POPULATION DENSITY in IRELAND is FAR GREATER than SWEDEN or FINLAND.

THEY LIVE IN SMALLER HOUSEHOLDS THAN WE DO

NEVERTHELESS, they have ALMOST UNIVERSAL BROADBAND AVAILIBILITY including in areas BEYOND the ARTIC CIRCLE , PEOPLE IN LAPPLAND WHO LIVE IN TENTS CAN GET BROADBAND, NORTHSIDE DUBLIN PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE M50 can NOT.

SWEDEN and FINLAND CHARGE 60-70% of what EIRCOM charge for ANALOGUE LINE RENTAL despite having HIGHER VAT RATES included in these FAR LOWER PRICES.

so do tell me

WHAT IS EIRCOM DOING RIGHT COMPARED TO THOSE SCANDINAVIANS?

M [/B]

too true... well put, though Finland isn't Scandinavian!!!

cop on eircom and bring dsl, flat-rate the whole shabbang out today - not tomorrow, not next week or month or even year(s) time!

eircom is doing more damage to its business by holding out as it means foreign companies (particularly technology related) will steer away from Ireland which means less profit for eircom.

Swedish companies (and I do think Sweden is the 4th or 5th largest country employing people in Ireland) won't be setting up here anymore if there's much better facilities at home - just something for eircom to think about when it relies heavily on big corporations HUGE MONTHLY PHONE AND INTERNET BILLS!

Google was a joke to setup here, they only did so as there are loads of unused data centres going at rock-bottom prices! The second the data centres prices go through the roof, we'll be hearing of "another 100 jobs lost at Google" story.... we can all see it happening and with inflation and companies hiking up prices left right and centre to grab every cent off everyone else then this scenario is guaranteed!

-naitkris

spongebob

Maybe he works for Valentia and not Eircom at all.

LFCFan

Originally posted by Ardmore
Here just go back and read what I said, instead of misrepresentating me.

What are you on about? Urban Weigl said people wouldn't pay above €30 - €40 a month. You replied by saying Joe Street UK is paying £29.99, which is €44.50. Muck then said there are cheaper versions which there are so Joe Streek UK doesn't Have to pay €44.50 a month. So what's your point?

MDR

cop on eircom and bring dsl, flat-rate the whole shabbang out today - not tomorrow, not next week or month or even year(s) time!

Things are moving forward on these issues at the decent rate, the regulator is mostly responsible for the timetable ...

The govt seems to be playing on our side now, I am quite opimistic for the future.

Ardmore

Originally posted by LFCFan
What are you on about? Urban Weigl said people wouldn't pay above €30 - €40 a month. You replied by saying Joe Street UK is paying £29.99, which is €44.50. Muck then said there are cheaper versions

I SAID THAT THERE ARE CHEAPER VERSIONS in the post that I pointed you to!!!! The point is that "Joe Street" (Urban Weigls phrase) is paying £29.99 a month, which is more than this famous €30-€40 window that DSL isn't supposed to make any sense above.

Nitrox

Originally posted by naitkris
too true... well put, though Finland isn't Scandinavian!!!

-naitkris

Of no imporatance what so ever to broadband, but just thought i would mention that Finland is part of Scandinavia!! They have to be part of something after all
Where are you from anyway naitkris?

LFCFan

Originally posted by Ardmore
I SAID THAT THERE ARE CHEAPER VERSIONS in the post that I pointed you to!!!! The point is that "Joe Street" (Urban Weigls phrase) is paying £29.99 a month, which is more than this famous €30-€40 window that DSL isn't supposed to make any sense above.

Ok, I see what you are saying. Can we really compare €uro to Sterling when we are making these comparisons between products? At the end of the day, it all depends on how strong one is against the other. A few months ago £29.99 was around €48.50, now it's around €44.50. In another few months it could be €40(unlikely but it's possible). For true comparisons we have to look at other countries in the €urozone.

MDR

Ardmore and LFCFan,
this is all becoming school yard stuff would you not agree,
how about we let sleeping dogs lie ?

LFCFan

Originally posted by MDR
Ardmore and LFCFan,
this is all becoming school yard stuff would you not agree,
how about we let sleeping dogs lie ?

Yeah, but my da is bigger than his da so I win

Ardmore

Originally posted by Muck
Last time I looked there were 15ISH EU members and 3 or 4 on the way in for sure, therefore I will look beyond the UK for comparisons every now and then if you dont mind. The UK has a relatively high population density and is not really comparable to Ireland on that basis.

Okay, so the UK has a much higher population density than us, and somewhat lower "mainstream" DSL prices (about 20%, taking VAT differences into account).

What does that tell us? (Hint - it's not that it's inappropriate to compare us to the UK).

My criteria for selecting Sweden or Finland is well known to you but in your M50 cocoon you refuse to note the reasons why.

I know your stated reasons. Unfortunately, they are somewhat misleading, because average population density isn't the point. While Sweden has a lower overall population density that Ieland, it also has vast areas of unpopulated forest. The population density of the areas where people actually live is not as low as Ireland. They don't have the sort of ribbon development and one-off rural housing that is the bane of planned development in Ireland.(Even outside the rural areas, I understand that their cities also have considerably higher population densities than ours).

Unfortunately, there isn't any easy way to know what the effective density is from public sources. Even if the Swedish telco published "telephone density" figures, we don't have the equivalent data from eircom for comparison purposes.

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by Ardmore
I SAID THAT THERE ARE CHEAPER VERSIONS in the post that I pointed you to!!!! The point is that "Joe Street" (Urban Weigls phrase) is paying £29.99 a month, which is more than this famous ?30-?40 window that DSL isn't supposed to make any sense above.

Do you live under a rock? The cost of BT Broadband, which is what is advertised on TV and in the newspapers and what Joe Street is buying is actually £27. That's a difference of almost £3, or about 5 euros. Granted, not a huge difference, but get your facts straight before posting.

Edit: Here is the address: http://www.bt.co.uk/btbroadband/

This is the most widely advertised broadband package in the UK. The point though is that even though this may cost £27, users also have the option of getting DSL for a lot less if they shop around. That's not possible in Ireland -- you're lucky if you can get any DSL at all.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
Do you live under a rock? The cost of BT Broadband, which is what is advertised on TV and in the newspapers and what Joe Street is buying is actually £27. That's a difference of almost £3, or about 5 euros. Granted, not a huge difference, but get your facts straight before posting.

Maybe you should get your's straight. I quoted BTOpenworld, which is what Joe Street is buying. BT Broadband is "access only" - it doesn't provide an e-mail address or webspace. And £27 is still more than this magic €30-€40 window we keep hearing about (nobody has provided a reference for this ComReg quote yet - any takers?).

Edit: Here is the address: http://www.bt.co.uk/btbroadband/

I said I was referring to BTOpenworld in my original post - I won't insult your intelligence by giving you a URL.

the option of getting DSL for a lot less if they shop around. That's not possible in Ireland -- you're lucky if you can get any DSL at all.

"if they shop around". Now tell me who the biggest broadband providers are in the UK, and how much the charge? You were the one who used the phrase "Joe Street". If you're talking about anoraks who eat sleep and drink this stuff, you should have said so.

sceptre

Thread locked. Partly because De Rebel (as a reasonable sort of chap and the thread-starter) asked for it to be and partly because it would have been done anyway.

Everyone cool off. Chill pills suggested - it's only the Internet and all that. And please keep in mind my recent comments about hijacking threads with if (no_of_lines <=2) {DSL_Price = line_rental + subscription} else... blah arguments. Different thread suggested. I'm not going to go back and separate this thread into different little threads.

Ardmore, i'd suggest next time someone here asks if you work for Eircom, a simple "no" will probably do. I can trace the roots of this whole childish affair largely back to about that point. That's not the same as accusing you of starting it but you've been the biggest contributor since. Either way, dead thread. Frankly quite a few of you are guilty of acting like kids.


Incidentally, if a poster here did work for Eircom that wouldn't exactly be a crime now would it? As we've said before (and Adam has popped in his public PGP key to ensure confidentiality in any correspondence with him), we're always interested in hearing juicy things from Eircom types. You know the kind of info we're interested in - the pertinent stuff. Anonymity guaranteed etc.