Why?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Hornet
But seriously, maybe you could explain this last statement a bit further. Do you think an Interest Group like III would not be the right vehicle? Who/what would be?

Well, given that the main group that would directly and immediately benefit from such action, I would suggest the Eircom marketing department. I agree that the mouse campaign was rubbish, but this hypothetical interest group could give them free advice on how to run their campaigns.

Hornet

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Let's be realistic here. You are talking about new dial-up users. This group would essential be promoting metered dial-up internet access among new users. The main beneficiary would be Eircom (as I said, regardless of which ISP they use) since Eircom own the platform.

Right now promoting the internet is the same as promoting big phone bills for Eircom.

You might argue that this target group may one day become the market for alternative broadband platforms. Maybe, but I don't believe the fundamental problem is lack of demand. I believe the fundamental problem is lack of competition.

Do you think the Internet Awareness among the non-users is sufficient? Do you think the Internet Awareness among the occasional users is sufficient? Do you think the Internet acceptance among parents with kids is sufficient? Do you think the Internet usage in Ireland has reached a state where it can be described as a mass movement?

I am talking about new users and about more aware users and about more informed users and about more intensive users. The New ones is only one group.

I do fundamentally disagree that Internet use should not be promoted because Eircom would benefit. If you want to wait until Eircom doesn't benefit anymore from converted non-users, you have to wait until some other company has built a completely separate dial-up network across whole Ireland. This will NEVER happen! BTW: A non-user usually becomes an occasional user first, not a power user. So the Eircom benefit from a few more people occasionally dialing up for a few minutes on a rate of 1.26 cent per minute is not that significant.

Eircom will not change without SIGNIFICANT user pressure. No regulator will turn Eircom into a slim and sleek and customer friendly operator. Who do you expect will change Eircom? Why should they change their customer un-friendly behaviour?

No competitor will set up operation here if he doesn't see the commercial upside. None of the existing competitors will get more agressive as long there is neither customer pressure nor competitive pressure. No politician will change direction substantially if he doesn't feel the heat from the voters.

We have now two options: 1) We follow your advise and sort out the telecom world before we use the services. It could take another 2 years or 10 years and we keep waiting. or 2) We stimulate the demand in such a way that the operators start feeling the heat. We get moving and give up the waiting and complaining and finally DO something.

I said in a different posting that IOFFL is to some extent perceived as the representative body for the experts/freaks and that nobody aggregates the concerns of the "normal" users and represents them. This is a problem, there is a mass of people unheard - and many have no opinion because they don't understand the issue anyway.

Maybe compare it with environmental issues: Only when environmental lobby groups were set up and when the general awareness about environmental issues was raised, the pressure on governments and industry became big enough for them to change.

-Hornet

Hornet

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Well, given that the main group that would directly and immediately benefit from such action, I would suggest the Eircom marketing department. I agree that the mouse campaign was rubbish, but this hypothetical interest group could give them free advice on how to run their campaigns.

Instead of a neutral and customer focused Interest Group, YOU (of all people) suggest that Eircom should turn it into a marketing event??

Do you really think this would give competitors a better chance? Do you think IrishWisp and LEAP and Irish Broadband and Via.NEtworks and who ever else has the potential to reduce Eircom's market power will be mentioned at an Eircom event in a favourable way?

Did evil spirits posess you when you came up with this idea?

SkepticOne, your suggestion sees me gob-smacked - and that is SOME achievement!

-Hornet

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Hornet
Instead of a neutral and customer focused Interest Group, YOU (of all people) suggest that Eircom should turn it into a marketing event??

But that is what it would be! When you sell the Internet to new users in Ireland, you are effectively selling time on Eircom's PSTN system. Eircom are the main gainers from this.

In fact, I would not be surprised if they don't sponsor some sort of Internet promotion group themselves. With FRIACO coming, it would be hugely in their interest to target new users. They might even be able to get a bit of money off the ISPs too.

Hornet

[Explanation: In this posting III stands for "Internet in Ireland" a proposed Interest Group for the promotion of the use of the Internet in Ireland.]


Any other opinions about the III idea from anybody?

Is it worth spending more time and effort discussing this idea or should we bury III and get back to the old business of complaining and doing nothing?

Any input from IOFFL (Dangger?)?

-Hornet

pork99

Is it worth spending more time and effort discussing this idea or should we bury III and get back to the old business of complaining and doing nothing?

much as I would love to be able to "do something" on this there is the inconvenient business of earning a living which tends to get in the way a bit

matthiku

There is a dilemma looming:

One group is saying: We have enough demand, now we need decent, affordable Internet Access (i.e. Broadband or Flatrate). This group is (was) opposed by Telcos saying: There is not enough take-up on our previous offers, i.e. not enough demand for always-on Internet.

Now comes another group, saying: We need to raise the awareness of Internet usage, in other words, we need to stimulate the demand.

Isn't the second group kind of undermining the arguments of the first?

I personally don't think so. Both groups have their own justification and should cooperate, because both have the same goal: keeping Ireland in line with the worldwide development of Internet as part of our society and not becoming a underdeveloped country.

And back to the demand argument of the first group and their counterparts: the recent developments have shown that this is not longer an issue. Demand for Internet is perceived as a matter of course by all parties involved.

Matthy

matthiku

I have to add something.

All who genuinely want Broadband or Flatrate (or both) in Ireland must support IOFFL and the still to be founded Internet in Ireland Awareness Initiative - if we say: all (developed) world have a widespread internet usage (because of the affordable prices) and Ireland needs to keep on with that, it only makes sense if there is also widespread awareness and the right perception of the "Internet" within Ireland!

dahamsta

I don't think Eircom's profits are a valid reason NOT to do something like this. Certainly, it's unfortunate that Eircom would have the most to gain from this, but that not the same as saying that they will be the /only/ beneficiary.

Commercially speaking, the OLO's and alternative ISP's will benefit from more users, and community providers like CorkWAN will have more of an incentive to get going. Socially speaking, people will have easier access to information, which should result - in time - in a more intelligent and more informed populace. Communities will flourish and bring people together, and those communities could well add weight to organisations like IrelandOffline.

Although I accept that Ireland has consistent problems with competition because of it's size, I think that more users online will lead to more competition. There's is absolutely no reason in the world that 90-95%+ of Ireland's population couldn't have access to affordable Internet access within 2-5 years, given intelligent marketing and Government support. That's a market that, in my view, will attract competition.

We've always complained here that the ISP's and operators have lost the plot when it comes to marketing. Many of us believe we could do far better. I don't see why a few people shouldn't come together and give it a go. That said, getting it right would be difficult and require a lot of thought. And I'll guarantee you won't do it with volunteers. Not that you'd need them -- there's plenty of money out there for something like this.

adam

Hornet

Originally posted by matthiku
There is a dilemma here:

One group is saying: Demand is there, now we need decent, affordable Internet Access (i.e. Broadband or Flatrate). This group is (was) opposed by Telcos saying: There is not enough take-up on our previous offers, i.e. not enough demand for always-on Internet.

Now comes another group, saying: We need to raise the awareness of Internet usage, in other words, we need to stimulate the demand.

Isn't the second group kind of undermining the arguments of the first?

I don't think that the second group would undermine the first.

I think the second group ("III") should not justify its existence with the "lack of demand" argument, but simply by the fact that "more people should be better informed" about the Internet to increase usage even further. It is a win-win for ALL Telcos, for employers, for Internet based service providers, for schools, universities and government.

The bandwidth discussion and the technology discussions is something where the second group would not necessarily have to be active (other than have and voice an opinion).

-Hornet

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
And I'll guarantee you won't do it with volunteers. Not that you'd need them -- there's plenty of money out there for something like this.

How much money are we talking about? Would you see Eircom being the main contributer, given that they stand the most to gain, and have been consistantly arguing for demand stimulation the past few years.

Hornet

Originally posted by SkepticOne
How much money are we talking about? Would you see Eircom being the main contributer, given that they stand the most to gain, and have been consistantly arguing for demand stimulation the past few years.

I would not dare a guess about the amount of money required at this stage, it depends on the timeframes and the coverage (i.e. how many public meetings in how many locations) and many other factors.

"III" would have to put a concept together and promote the idea to the potential sponsors. I would definitely see Eircom as one of the main sponsors, but would suggest a wider base to cater for unexpected decisions from the potential sponsors.

-Hornet

dahamsta

How much money are we talking about?

Well, leaflets and suchlike won't cost a whole lot, but the impact of that type of marketing is hit and miss, and the results are questionable. I believe that a roadshow could be extremely effective, especially in locations like supermarket car parks. I'm not going to project costs, but I will project scale: The project would require a vehicle, most likely a large van or small truck; it would require a number of computers, at least a half dozen; and it would need demonstrators, say at least four.

The demonstrators shouldn't add up to much, since there are people like me who would be willing to take a week off to help out; but then again, to have maximum effect it would need to be on the road constantly - big diesel bill - and I'm not sure we would be able to gather up sufficient numbers. It wouldn't strictly need an Internet connection, since you could get sponsors to develop microsites to be loaded onto a server on the machine, however that adds another box, network cards and cabling (orgs like ILUG and CorkWAN might be willing to help here).

You can probably add a printer too, plus there are other possible costs, such as subsidies on computers from sponsors (I'm thinking Dell, Elara, Compustore, etc) and perhaps ISP subscription subsidies. It all adds up to a hefty investment. That said, see my comments below on scope.

Would you see Eircom being the main contributer, given that they stand the most to gain, and have been consistantly arguing for demand stimulation the past few years.

I don't see why not. I've never had an argument with Eircom's advertising spend, the issue I've always had is the fact that they have that much money to spend, because of their abuse of SMP. The only issue with having Eircom as primary sponsor is the possibility that they will try and lead the approach, which can be catered for with strict hands-off contracts. However, it should be noted that there is a much wider scope for sponsors here than has been mentioned already in this thread.

Certainly, the ISP's will want to get involved, but let's not forget that ISP's have very limited profit margins, which is why their marketing budgets are so small. I've already mentioned Dell, Elara and their ilk in relation to subsidies, but another possibility would be bottom-of-the-line mini-atx boxes with a small monitor and cheap keyboard and mouse, which would be just fine for a newbie getting started with the web and email. Then there's the content providers and eCommerce companies, who should be keen to enlarge their audiences. I'm sure we can think of more.

I dunno, perhaps it's all a bit pie-in-the-sky, but it doesn't look like it from here, it looks like a bloody good idea. It would take a fair bit of organising, but we have a hefty number of contacts in the community that would help out; would enjoy helping out in fact (ILUG would wet themselves at the oppprtunity to kit this out and stick a big penguin in the corner). And if this was successful, no doubt other ideas would surface. If Hornet's willing to set the ball rolling, I say go for it. What's to lose beyond a little self-pride?

adam

Hornet

Adam, brilliant ideas and suggestions! Keep them coming.

Yes, I am willing to set the ball rolling and with the help of all the talent and the contacts we have on this board, we should be able to get a good initiative going. No guarantees given, but as I keep saying, if you don't try, you won't succeed.

Now, I am fully aware that this is the IOFFL board and I really would appreciate either their "Do whatever you want!" of even better "Oh, yes, go for it boys! We are behind you!"

In addition I do realise that many of the people who are quite vocal and contribute a lot in other discussions on the IOFFL board haven't said anything here. Is it because you think it's not a good idea, or if it that you can't help and don't want to be asked or are there other reasons?

What I am really looking for is a show of hands or something similar. If the backing is not there among the group of experts/freaks and gurus, it will be tough to get the show on the road!

With close to 1000 hits at the time of writing, probably most of the active readers of this board have read some contributions here. Could you maybe give us your 2cents worth?

-Hornet

Ardmore

Originally posted by Hornet
In addition I do realise that many of the people who are quite vocal and contribute a lot in other discussions on the IOFFL board haven't said anything here. Is it because you think it's not a good idea, or if it that you can't help and don't want to be asked or are there other reasons?

With close to 1000 hits at the time of writing, probably most of the active readers of this board have read some contributions here. Could you maybe give us your 2cents worth?

I'm somewhat concerned that you've lost the focus that you started with. You've gone from a "parish hall" approach to a national campaign with major funding, in the space of a day and a half.

I think your original suggestion made sense, and I think it would be a big mistake to even think of a national campaign until you have done some "parish hall" demos, and figured out what works and what doesn't work.

From a technical point of view, you need some way to demonstrate the difference between a dialup connection and a broadband connection, without actually having a broadband connection available, and you need to figure out how best to do that as a first step.

Hornet

Originally posted by Ardmore
I'm somewhat concerned that you've lost the focus that you started with. You've gone from a "parish hall" approach to a national campaign with major funding, in the space of a day and a half.

I think your original suggestion made sense, and I think it would be a big mistake to even think of a national campaign until you have done some "parish hall" demos, and figured out what works and what doesn't work.

You are right, the discussion and the suggestions have developed quite fast, but I think there is nothing wrong with creating loads of ideas and then compromising on the approach that makes most sense. Because of this, I would prefer at the moment to invite all opinions and suggestions without picking them apart and questioning them.

I still think the "parish hall" approach is a good start. In addition to a parish hall, it could be a school where parents are informed. It could be a (sponsored) participation at an exhibition with a non-IT topic (e.g. in RDS) or it could be corner in a shopping center on a Saturday morning. There are loads of possibilities and I strongly agree that after a basic concept has been drawn up, this concept has to be tested in a small way. If everything goes well and if the response is very good, the project could grow.

I am totally with you: Start small and potentially grow. If it stays medium size, nothing is lost either as long as more people are made aware of the Internet and its benefits.

I don't want to go into detail, because that might start a discussion about the "how" instead of about the "if". (We are still at the "should we????" stage. The "how" discussion will follow if we have a Yes on the first question.)

But if you think forward, one could imagine differently focused events for different target groups: Parents have different questions than the crowd of the local youth club or the people "in the parish hall". The three different levels trigger different questions as well. Your suggestion about the "access speed demonstration" makes a lot of sense for the people that have used the Internet before. On the non-users it would be completely lost.

-Hornet

raindog

Originally posted by iwb
Great replies.

SNIP

Although the internet is akin to phones or electricity in its significance, it is very unlike these in that it will be far more difficult to benefit from it in the short term. When electricity was delivered, you could flick a switch and get light. When phones were first delivered, you could twist a handle and speak with someone who would connect you. While both were scary for most people to deal with at first, the learning curve wasn't too bad.
In contrast, there are very few dedicated internet appliances currently. Most of us use a PC to access and benefit from the internet.

SNIP

So, another fundamental question. Should these people (who represent a large percentage of the population) subscribe to high speed always on connections? Why?

I can nearly say with 99% certainty that once you get over 50 years of age, then what you are describing really becomes a major factor. Between the ages of 40 - 50 it really boils down to education and status. 30 - 40 and a larger percentage of the population are ok with PCs and under the age of 30 I don't think you will find many who are afraid of or would find a major learning curve there. In primary and secondary schools today allmost all have some sort of PC education or exposure. From door to door research I have carried out I would say that ( in the area where this was taken) between 15 - 20% expressed an interest in broadband. Of course the time of day I did this research between 9 - 11 pm didn't help so it is possible that at a more resonable hour, people would be more open to questions. However I don't think it would be much higher. The thing about a board like this one ( which is one of the answers to Why do we need the Internet?) is that everyone here allready knows about broadband whereas the general population doesn't or doesn't see the point. This will change as the younger population grows. I spent some time doing PC repairs in another life and found that even in the country, most homes with school going or university students had a PC and thinternet. A good example of the power of the internet is the turnout at the antiwar rallies in London +1,000,000, Rome +2,000,000 & Dublin +100,000. I personally think that comunication across the Net was a major factor here. Of course I can't prove it. I think that the next 10 years ( which is an awful long time in internet terms) will see a huge change in this country, possibly as much as has allready been in the last 10 as a result of the gradual rollout of broadband and internet connectivity.

Xian

Ah well, I suppose it was only a matter of time before the Real IIA reared its head again...

Why are we campaining for internet access, or rather what do we use the internet for and what benefits do we see for its use by others that we think it is important for others to be made aware of its importance?

Me, well it seems I use the internet principally these days as a means to campaign for internet access . There are as many answers as there are internet users. Show me the person who has no interest in the internet and I'll show you someone who hasn't found the niche in the internet that interests them.

The latest in a litany of damning reports on Internet access/uptake in Ireland, the World Economic Forum report shows where we are now.

Raising awareness is a possible solution. There are others who have reneged on their accepted responsibility for this:

(7.2) Universal Participation Initiative (from the New Connections Progress Report 1 - February 2003)

• To promote participation in the Information Society through a Local Authority-led initiative aimed, inter alia, at building computer skills and providing local content.

Update
This Universal Participation initiative has not yet commenced and action is required early in 2003 to address this. An application for assistance from the Information Society Fund for the development of a Universal Participation Initiative through the County and City Enterprise Boards was made in June 2002. While approval for the funding of €170,000 required to run pilot projects in 2002 was received, no commitment was received on the much greater funding (approx. €600,000) required to roll-out the scheme in 2003. It was decided that pilot projects should not be undertaken in the absence of such a commitment. The proposal has been re-examined and a revised proposal for two pilot projects has been submitted to the Information Society Policy Unit for consideration.

To me, the thought of being in a Parish Hall, having tea with the vicar and showing him how to get onto the alt.theology list doesn't strike me as a solution to resolving this.

I agree with ScepticOne that supply, not demand, remains the core issue for internet access in Ireland and the justifiable focus of IrelandOffline's efforts.

We've been here two years now. The time will soon come when we must accept our share of the responsibility if Ireland continues to underperform in communications in the international arena.

Our agreed solution is that getting more people on the internet, using the internet more, demanding (and getting) higher connection speeds causes more people to get on the internet, to use it more and demand higher connection speeds. Our agreed method of doing this is campaigning to make it affordable for people to get online, to stay online and to have access to higher connection speeds.

Raising awareness is the responsibility of interested parties: Eircom, the Government, the Local Authorities. What is of interest to us is altruistic self-interest: getting affordable internet access.

If we're wrong the buck stops here.

Hornet

Originally posted by Xian
Ah well, I suppose it was only a matter of time before the Real IIA reared its head again...

Never heard about it until I saw your link and has NOTHING to do with it.

Raising awareness is a possible solution. There are others who have reneged on their accepted responsibility for this:
[...]

To me that is not reason enough for doing nothing AS WELL!

To me, the thought of being in a Parish Hall, having tea with the vicar and showing him how to get onto the alt.theology list doesn't strike me as a solution to resolving this.

If there are another 20 people with the priest who want to know more about the Internet the event was worth it - it is totally irrelevant for what purpose people want to use the Internet as long as they get a benefit. I would put alt-theology and online gaming in the same category when it comes to relevance for society.
If the meeting would not be in the Parish Hall, but instead a class room full of parents, maybe you would see the situation in a different light.

I agree with ScepticOne that supply, not demand, remains the core issue for internet access in Ireland and the justifiable focus of IrelandOffline's efforts.

I will not enter into that discussion again as in my opinion both opinions are acceptable depending on the point of view (and the Internet literacy) of the person voicing this opinion.
Apart from that, I expressed already that I think IOFFL's efforts would be diluted if the "III" concept would be pursued by IOFFL itself.

We've been here two years now. The time will soon come when we must accept our share of the responsibility if Ireland continues to underperform in communications in the international arena.

After two years, I would think the time is HERE! Do we "accept responsibility" by doing nothing apart from complaining? I am not saying IOFFL is doing nothing, but the base of IOFFL in the Irish society as a whole is quite small. (I would not think that the mother who has concerns about using the Internet and who is worried about her child being online sees herself represented by IOFFL.) So what IOFFL does and has achieved will only indirectly or at a later stage benefit most of the people in the non-user and occasional user group. There is nobody doing anything do enable more people to understand what IOFFL is fighting for!

Our agreed solution is that getting more people on the internet, using the internet more, demanding (and getting) higher connection speeds causes more people to get on the internet, to use it more and demand higher connection speeds. Our agreed method of doing this is campaigning to make it affordable for people to get online, to stay online and to have access to higher connection speeds.

Do I interpret this statement right as an official IOFFL statement/policy? I have no issue with as a IOFFL position. I do, however, keep wondering if fighting for motorways when most people don't even have cars and don't understand how to use cars and what to use them for is the approach that would get more people to use cars.

Raising awareness is the responsibility of interested parties: Eircom, the Government, the Local Authorities. What is of interest to us is altruistic self-interest: getting affordable internet access.

If you are suggesting that IOFFL is not an interested party on the "raising awareness" list, the word "altruistic" might be the wrong one in this context. The interested party list (if exclusive) seems to me like running away from responsibility.

I don't agree that raising awareness is the responsibility of Eircom or the Local Authorities and the government has only a responsibility through education. Eircom is a commercial organisation (Ford will only raise car awareness if they directly benefit from it.) The local authorities don't play any role in it. The fact that they want fibre rings doesn't make them responsible for education. Raising awareness is IN THE INTEREST of all Telcos, all employers, all educational institutes and the government (local or central), but that doesn't make them responsible.

----

I appreciate that you contributed to the discussion!

Is this the official IOFFL opinion regarding the "III" idea? And would it be right to summarise it like this: Do whatever you want, as long as IOFFL doesn't need to get involved. IOFFL doesn't see raising Internet awareness as part of it's mission.

Just to avoid any misunderstanding: This is an acceptable IOFFL position! I am not trying to imply that IOFFL better change their policies. (I might not be in favour of such an approach of an Internet lobby group, but that is irrelevant.)

-Hornet

iwb

Hornet,
As it was your idea to start with, I think you should start a new thread to gauge interest and discuss purely the "III Roadshow".
That way, you can easily see what is going on.
I am very glad that this thread generated such constructive discussion about doing something real to help the situation. That was the purpose of it after all.
You have my 100% support for this initiative. There are a few things I am sure of with regard to this.
1. It needs to be tried right away. Get the ball rolling. I will help any way I can. I should have some spare time here and there to do whatever is needed.
2. You absolutely need internet access to demo this thing. You simply sit a complete technophobe down in front of a terminal, ask him/her about hobbies and interests and show them a few pages pertaining to these.
3. There needs to be more than one group doing this. Yes I am talking about running before we have walked at all. Perhaps initially one group per province and if it goes well, one per county eventually.
4. Lets go and do it, right now.
5. Lets get to it.
6. Go, go, go.
7. You get the idea.

iwb

iwb

How about this for an idea. There would be members of III that would act as internet ambassadors. They would wear some kind of distinctive sign, say a baseball cap or whatever, recognising them as such.
When they decide they are 'on duty', they would wear this item. People would then recognise an III ambassador and be able to approach them and ask for more info about broadband and the internet.
Beats sitting bored on the DART or at the bus stop. Might even be good for a chat up line or two. "Oh sorry, I thought you were III. I was going to ask you about big pipes":D

nahdoic

Originally posted by iwb
2. You absolutely need internet access to demo this thing. You simply sit a complete technophobe down in front of a terminal, ask him/her about hobbies and interests and show them a few pages pertaining to these.

That is a lot harder than you would think. I've tried this before with a couple of people. It's very hard to find something that actually interests them on the web. It takes time to find websites, that are often updated and will encourage people to visit them again.

About the only thing I found, that would interest almost all technophobes is getting the opportunity to chat to people from different parts of the world.

I also remember walking into my local library to avail of the free internet a few years ago. There were 6 computers in the room, and 5 people were in yahoo chat, and one person was doing up a CV or something in word.

Other stuff that sometimes interests them is finding out about their family heritage, or what other people with their exact name, are doing across the world.

I guess you could show them the services available on-line like billpay, or tesco, or ordering flowers!

iwb

Has this thread run its course? I kinda hoped Hornet might start a thread to gauge interest in and further discuss III. I also thought there was more to be talked about under the original question.
Don't get me wrong, it was a great discussion but there are many regulars on here who haven't said a word.
iwb

Hornet

Originally posted by iwb
Has this thread run its course? I kinda hoped Hornet might start a thread to gauge interest in and further discuss III.

Not at all, it is not over yet! :-) (Some people might wish it would be!?!?!)

I had to spend a bit of quality time on the day job, but I will be back in a day or two. Your suggestion about a new thread is the right thing and I will do that.

Initially I would prefer to gauge interest, the further discussion of III will follow after that. If we can keep the two issues separate it would be good. Otherwise we could spend more time disagreeing about where, who, what and how and forget the bigger picture.

I'll be back...

In the meantime, I can only support iwb in his appeal to the regulars to voice their opinion.

-Hornet