ComReg is pleased to welcome eircom's revised FRIACO product pricing

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Boston
Sorry haven;t botther reading the rest of this stuff but, as far as i can see eircom make allot more money suppling 2mb's for adsl then friaco. and several times that again for leased lines.

Most of the other 'dimensions' were concerned with the problems ISPs might face in supplying flat rate over FRIACO. I just wasn't sure how these two fitted in.

1. Eircom's pricing strategy for FRIACO ports.
2. The loss of revenue to the incumbent from the loss of other dial-up traffic while a line is being used for dial-up internet access.

I'm talking in the context of this thread where ComReg have announced FRIACO pricing and previous documents have outlined what Eircom are required to do.

In particular, point 2: the only people concerned with this would be Eircom surely.

nahdoic

Originally posted by Boston
as far as i can see eircom make allot more money suppling 2mb's for adsl then friaco. and several times that again for leased lines.

Yes, which is why this FRIACO deal is so huge and will give the impetus needed for Ireland to catch up with the rest of the world. It's going to shake up the entire internet market in Ireland.

It will demand for price re-adjustments for ADSL and leased lines. We're already seeing eircom trying to rush out their new cheaper, and more widely available RADSL service. Eircom now WANT you to get ADSL instead of FRIACO, as they can now make more money from ADSL. Their cosy little dial up market cash cow has been mandated from under them. And i do NOT want to start another discussion on caps, but I wouldn't be suprised at all if eircom remove or greatly increase the caps on all their ADSL offerings when a FRIACO consumer product is actually made available, all going well in June.

spongebob

Originally posted by zz03
It is not a single dimensional issue.

Dimension A = Eircom's pricing strategy for FRIACO ports
Dimension B = The Irish consumer's level of patience with busy tones at peak times
Dimension C = The real network costs of using a switched network for handling the final leg of what is a packet based service.
Dimension D = The loss of revenue to the incumbent from the loss of other dial-up traffic while a line is being used for dial-up internet access
Dimension E = The costs ISPs will have to incur to roll out FRIACO access to every exchange in the country. (The DSL rollout using wholesale bitstream is far easier).
Dimension F= The bang for the buck. FRIACO is what narrowband users have at the moment, only probably slower with higher usage and contention. DSL is a completely different experience.
Dimension G = In the few other countries it has been tried it hasn't been very successful.

zz..

Well done zz03, nice separation of strands

A Keep it high and dont explain the logic, Comreg got sick of them in the end.
B I see, dont bump the hogs for he first few months to max out the modem pool and get FRIACO a bad name for bizzies, sneaky but effective. Then blame ESAT
C Same sh1te they peddled for CPS the "Hot Spots" come back again to haunt us
D Should be A really. Greed is good. Eircom are not doing this for their own good you know, they are doing it because they have to.
E Double Tandem is 48 exchanges out of 1100 , not too onerous.
F Related to B and to funky router configs in the NOC. Packet prioritisation will not favour FRIACO users.
G They went to Broadband within 2 or 3 years. No country has introduced FRIACO in the past 2 years so they are "Over the Curve" as it were.

M

zz03

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Could you expand on points A and D. Aren't these fully addressed in the FRIACO documents from ComReg.

A: By charging a fixed price per port, eircom have pushed the peak time traffic processing cost to ISPs rather than absorbing it themselves.

The alternative pricing model might have been for eircom to charge a fixed fee per FRIACO subscriber to the ISP. Under the alternative model, it wouldn’t matter to the ISP if 70 or 80% of his subscriber base came online between 20.00 and 21.00 every Tuesday. Eircom would have to have enough FRIACO ports in place to deal with this peak demand.

Please also see Muck’s point about blaming the ISP (for busy tones).

The scaling problem here is peak time demand – rather than the odd dialeruper who wants to stay online 24/24h.


Think of any household with three, four, five or more people and a single phone line. I know one. Three kids – all boys – huge demand for dial-up. Impossible to get through to house on landline. Situation would probably get worse if they had FRIACO. If they had DSL, the line would be free again to make and receive calls. Generating more revenue for the incumbent.

(MDSL + MVC) > (MFRIACO – MLOST)

Where:
MDSL = Eircom margin on DSL
MVC = eircom margin on calls that can take place because of DSL
MFRIACO = Eircom margin on FRIACO
MLOST = lost margin on calls that can’t get through over wireline network.

zz..

Boston

Originally posted by zz03
A: By charging a fixed price per port, eircom have pushed the peak time traffic processing cost to ISPs rather than absorbing it themselves.

The alternative pricing model might have been for eircom to charge a fixed fee per FRIACO subscriber to the ISP. Under the alternative model, it wouldn’t matter to the ISP if 70 or 80% of his subscriber base came online between 20.00 and 21.00 every Tuesday. Eircom would have to have enough FRIACO ports in place to deal with this peak demand.

zz..

Doesn't make sense for any wholesale supplier to operate in this fashion, they would put themsleves at a huge disadvantage

SkepticOne

Originally posted by zz03
A: By charging a fixed price per port, eircom have pushed the peak time traffic processing cost to ISPs rather than absorbing it themselves.

The alternative pricing model might have been for eircom to charge a fixed fee per FRIACO subscriber to the ISP. Under the alternative model, it wouldn’t matter to the ISP if 70 or 80% of his subscriber base came online between 20.00 and 21.00 every Tuesday. Eircom would have to have enough FRIACO ports in place to deal with this peak demand.

The first one is pretty much the standard for FRIACO. I doubt if ComReg would have entertained any other. It is the standard in Britain for example.

Think of any household with three, four, five or more people and a single phone line. I know one. Three kids – all boys – huge demand for dial-up. Impossible to get through to house on landline. Situation would probably get worse if they had FRIACO. If they had DSL, the line would be free again to make and receive calls. Generating more revenue for the incumbent.

(MDSL + MVC) > (MFRIACO – MLOST)

Where:
MDSL = Eircom margin on DSL
MVC = eircom margin on calls that can take place because of DSL
MFRIACO = Eircom margin on FRIACO
MLOST = lost margin on calls that can’t get through over wireline network.

Yes, with any PSTN line, there will be loss of revenue from incoming calls due to the nature of the PSTN line. Every call made on a PSTN line, prevents other calls being made on that same PSTN line.

zz03

Originally posted by Boston
Doesn't make sense for any wholesale supplier to operate in this fashion, they would put themsleves at a huge disadvantage

I'm not critical of eircom for the pricing model they imposed (assuming this is what you mean by “wholesale supplier").

Flat-rate dial-up is a step backwards in an IP/ATM world. An unashamed exercise in dumbing things down and a wasteful “investment” in horse drawn trams and buggy whips in 2003.

zz..

Dustaz

Originally posted by zz03

Flat-rate dial-up is a step backwards in an IP/ATM world. An unashamed exercise in dumbing things down and a wasteful “investment” in horse drawn trams and buggy whips in 2003.

Thats all well and good but how do you suggest people outside of DSL enabled areas connect to the net without spending a fortune?

FRIACO is needed full stop.

spongebob

Originally posted by zz03
I'm not critical of eircom for the pricing model they imposed (assuming this is what you mean by “wholesale supplier").

Flat-rate dial-up is a step backwards in an IP/ATM world. An unashamed exercise in dumbing things down and a wasteful “investment” in horse drawn trams and buggy whips in 2003.

zz..

I agree with ZZ on the technology front.

The reason it is important on the evolutionary scale is that this is the First product introduced by Comreg and forced upon Eircom.
Minister Ahern...in fairness to him and his staff..... had to force Comreg to do this , the old ODTR was a dithering jelly when it came to doing anything decisive.
The new USO directive allows them to force product introduction more widely from July 2003.

Up to now, Eircom have strangled technological advances by

1. Not offering a product (ADSL for example, Eircom tested this in Ennis between 1998 and 2001 and would not deploy it nationwide)
2. Taking the absolute piss when it came to wholedale variants, these are required when eircom DO offer new products, which is how Eircom mucked everybody around between 2001-2002
3. When hurdles one and two are cleared it then spends time sending PR Bunnies around to slob journalists to tell slobbo thet there is'NO Demand' for the service they have been forced to introduce. Ask nbuttimer@eircom.ie how a 7.9% Line Rental rise was reported as 2.9% by the slobs.

There for ya

zz03

Originally posted by SkepticOne
The first one is pretty much the standard for FRIACO. I doubt if ComReg would have entertained any other.

Why should ComReg be bothered if eircom wish to shoot themselves in the foot!?

It is the standard in Britain for example.

Get Away!

Yes, with any PSTN line, there will be loss of revenue from incoming calls due to the nature of the PSTN line. Every call made on a PSTN line, prevents other calls being made on that same PSTN line.

Fascinating. But have you considered that if you put a DSL thingie at each end of the same copper pair you could run tens, hundreds or even thousands of voice calls over the same copper pair and/or high quality video, DVD audio quality sound etc - depending on loop length?

What a waste of copper this PSTN lark...

zz..

SkepticOne

Originally posted by zz03
Fascinating. But have you considered that if you put a DSL thingie at each end of the same copper pair you could run tens, hundreds or even thousands of voice calls over the same copper pair and/or high quality video, DVD audio quality sound etc - depending on loop length?

A few points.

1. We are dealing with monopolistic idiots who are only now (2003) realising that perhaps people aren't interested in paying 100 euros for basic DSL regardless of how high spec it might be.

2. Their plans (if they are not taking the piss), will initially cover at most one third of the lines (assuming not too many are split or rotten). Even by September, 2004, assuming this is not a stunt to get money out of the Government, at most 2/3 of the lines will be covered (again, assuming that they are not pair gain systems or generally rotten).

3. The new DSL at 54 euros will still be too expensive for most people. The arguments about DSL being more efficient in terms of transferring data will fall on deaf ears.

4. Therefore there needs to be some alternative for people who want to surf the web for a fixed cost without being ripped off.

5. The main competitor, Esat, are no better with their joke DSL offering.

Don't get me wrong, I believe affordable DSL is long overdue in Ireland. I just don't think the current shower can be trusted delivering it, and in the meantime there needs to be some alternative.

Even with affordable broadband, there will be many who are reasonably content with dial-up, whether flat rate or metered.

zz03

Originally posted by SkepticOne

3. The new DSL at 54 euros will still be too expensive for most people. The arguments about DSL being more efficient in terms of transferring data will fall on deaf ears.

Absolutely. Logic surely dictates that the DSL pricing be reduced rather than wasting millions on a platform that delivers a sub standard service to the customer. Eircom's CEO has publicly stated that the company would prefer DSL to FRIACO, but if the market wants FRIACO they will give FRIACO.

Bottom line. Eircom prefer DSL. The consumer prefers DSL too (or at least 100% of those consumers who have experienced the choice between narrowband and broadband do).

I could get rude at this point, but it goes against the grain.

zz..

spongebob

Originally posted by zz03
Absolutely. Logic surely dictates that the DSL pricing be reduced rather than wasting millions on a platform that delivers a sub standard service to the customer. Eircom's CEO has publicly stated that the company would prefer DSL to FRIACO, but if the market wants FRIACO they will give FRIACO.

Bottom line. Eircom prefer DSL. The consumer prefers DSL too (or at least 100% of those consumers who have experienced the choice between narrowband and broadband do).

I could get rude at this point, but it goes against the grain.

zz..

the BOTTOM line is different.

Eircom recently announced that they will have enabled 150 out of 1100 exchanges for DSL by END SEPTEMBER 2004 . Thats 14% of Exchanges. Thats the BOTTOM LINE.

Eircom prefer to give us DSL allright, in big cities only by drip feed.

Over 80% of Ireland by Geographic Area will Not have DSL by END SEPTEMBER 2004 . Thats the BOTTOM LINE

Meanwhile Eircom are supposed to have a Wireless 384k DSL type product available in 43% of Ireland by Geographic Area by END June 2003 . Where the **** is it ?

They are in gross breach of their Wireless licencing obligations. Thats the BOTTOM LINE.

M

SkepticOne

Originally posted by zz03
Absolutely. Logic surely dictates that the DSL pricing be reduced rather than wasting millions on a platform that delivers a sub standard service to the customer. Eircom's CEO has publicly stated that the company would prefer DSL to FRIACO, but if the market wants FRIACO they will give FRIACO.

I would not take this on face value. Eircom have had plenty of opportunities to show that they are interested in offering DSL at affordable prices. Now, when FRIACO is being imposed on them, they are suddenly interested in actually selling DSL. As Muck pointed out, this is a company who have been 'testing' DSL since 1998. Let's pretend this is genuine, though. If Eircom feel that DSL is what the consumer wants then noone is stopping them from selling DSL to them.

Bottom line. Eircom prefer DSL. The consumer prefers DSL too (or at least 100% of those consumers who have experienced the choice between narrowband and broadband do).

Sure they do. So why are they still charging over 100 euros and applying strict line tests as well as bogus computer requirements.

zz03

Originally posted by Muck
the BOTTOM line is different.

Eircom recently announced that they will have enabled 150 out of 1100 exchanges for DSL by END SEPTEMBER 2004 . Thats 14% of Exchanges. Thats the BOTTOM LINE.

Eircom prefer to give us DSL allright, in big cities only by drip feed.

Over 80% of Ireland by Geographic Area will Not have DSL by END SEPTEMBER 2004 . Thats the BOTTOM LINE

Meanwhile Eircom are supposed to have a Wireless 384k DSL type product available in 43% of Ireland by Geographic Area by END June 2003 . Where the **** is it ?

They are in gross breach of their Wireless licencing obligations. Thats the BOTTOM LINE.

M

Agreed. Yes Yes yes. Bla Bla Bla.

But none of the above gives any legit to FRIACO.

Everyone wants DSL including eircom by their own admission.

What's holding the rollout up? Why is it so expensive?

zz..

spongebob

Originally posted by zz03
Agreed. Yes Yes yes. Bla Bla Bla.

Everyone wants DSL including eircom by their own admission.

What's holding the rollout up? Why is it so expensive?

zz..

where have you been hiding for the past 2 years zz . . use the Boards search feature (top right) , there are 1000's of posts on the subject above.

Eircom do not want DSL, they have come under ferocious pressure to get us as far as we are today. 2nd bottom from the infants in the EU.

Why is the pope catholic ?

M

bk

zz03 don't you get it, we simply wouldn't be getting these new EUR 54 xDSL products if it wasn't for FRIACO.

It isn't a coincidence that Eircom will be launching their new consumer xDSL product around the same time as FRIACO.

Up until now Eircom has been making massive money from their per minute dial up (I believe it makes up 40% of Eircoms income), because of this Eircom have had ZERO interest in DSL.

However FRIACO changes all this, Eircom will lose lots of money from dial up to their competitors, plus greater use of the net will negatively impact normal phone use.

For this reason we are getting cheaper DSL products and a real drive from Eircom to get it out there. But don't fool yourself, if we weren't getting FRIACO, then this new DSL products would never have been launched.

For this reason alone FRIACO has been worth it.

Also FRIACO is very important to people who don't want to pay EUR 50 per month for the net (in other words most people) and also for the greater number of people who can't get DSL for a variety of reasons.

Anyway I can't really see why you have a problem with FRIACO, unless you work for Eircom. It won't have any negative impact on DSL and in fact it will have a very positive impact on it, so what is the problem?

zz03

Originally posted by Muck
where have you been hiding for the past 2 years zz . . use the Boards search feature (top right) , there are 1000's of posts on the subject above.

Eircom do not want DSL, they have come under ferocious pressure to get us as far as we are today. 2nd bottom from the infants in the EU.

Why is the pope catholic ?

M

I haven't been living on an island etc

I just don't want to let people confuse the issue of "FRIACO is rubbish" with DSL delivery performance. Sceptic has been suggesting more or less that FRIACO is the only practical platform for most people.

Mush minded thinking me says. A DSL modem costs no more than a regular dial-up thing. Give us all the real thing and stop playing around I say.

Eircom are on trial here. Not zz03. Their CEO says that he prefers DSL to FRIACO. So do we all. Let's have it. Now.

And if you don't want to provide it and can get away without providing it there surely is something rotten in the state of Ireland?

Despite announcements, www.adsl.ie is still stuck in Nov 27 mode.

Why?

zz..

spongebob

zz03

Originally posted by bk
zz03 don't you get it, we simply wouldn't be getting these new EUR 54 xDSL products if it wasn't for FRIACO.

Anyone in the know will tell you that the presence of "EUR 54 xDSL" has absolutely nothing to do with FRIACO.

Wind the tape back and look at one or two Irish website caches if you are curious!

zz03

zz03

Originally posted by Muck

I don't believe it! Muck is lost for words!

zz..

SkepticOne

Originally posted by zz03
Anyone in the know will tell you that the presence of "EUR 54 xDSL" has absolutely nothing to do with FRIACO.

Don't you mean non-presence? I believe it is due to be rolled out in March. It is still too expensive, but it is a start.

sceptre

Originally posted by zz03
And if you don't want to provide it and can get away without providing it there surely is something rotten in the state of Ireland?

Yup. We've had inept telecoms regulation and lack of (real) government policy over the past few years. That's been one of the core problems and it's been one of the central complaints on this forum over the past twenty-odd months.

I still won't be paying 54 euros for a product with such a low cap/allowance btw.

bk

Originally posted by zz03
Anyone in the know will tell you that the presence of "EUR 54 xDSL" has absolutely nothing to do with FRIACO.

Em, Muck can I use your card from above.

Yes from a technical point of view FRIACO has nothing to do with DSL.

However I was not talking about the technology behind it, I was talking about the commercial and social link between them, read my post ffs :eek:

Wind the tape back and look at one or two Irish website caches if you are curious!
zz03

I have no idea what you are talking about now, please explain.

bk

Originally posted by zz03
A DSL modem costs no more than a regular dial-up thing.

Not true, DSL gear is typically more expensive then PSTN modems, but that isn't really a big deal.

Give us all the real thing and stop playing around I say.

But that is why FRIACO is important, DSL will NEVER be available to many people in Ireland, due to TECHNICAL reasons.

DSL usually won't work over the long distances between exchange and home often found in rurual areas.

For these people FRIACO and a strong USO are their only option. (However I hope that other BB tech such as wireless and BB over power lines might be able to help these people).

Dangger

ENN update here

Esat BT gave a lukewarm reaction to the price, with a spokesperson saying, "We are not dissatisfied. They are within the ballpark we expected." Esat BT, along with Nevada and Eircom, are expected to begin selling a consumer flat-rate product by June, with the price of these products considered crucial to the growth of at-home Net use in Ireland.

bk

An Esat BT spokesperson added that the firm was "hopeful" that its price would be below EUR30 "but we'll have to do what is economically viable."

Just great, EsatBT are learning great things off of Eircom :eek:

However things are looking up, I'd say Esat are looking over their shoulder worrying about what price Nevadtel/UTV are going to introduce it at. I'm sure they don't want a repeat of the last time.

Isn't competition great

Ardmore

Originally posted by Muck
the BOTTOM line is different.

Over 80% of Ireland by Geographic Area will Not have DSL by END SEPTEMBER 2004 . Thats the BOTTOM LINE

That 80% by geographic have a system that is massively subsidised by the 80% of the population that live in the remaining 20% of the geographic area.

Don't go down that route, Muck - it's not an argument that you can win.

spongebob

Originally posted by Ardmore
That 80% by geographic have a system that is massively subsidised by the 80% of the population that live in the remaining 20% of the geographic area.

Don't go down that route, Muck - it's not an argument that you can win.

Lets imagine that Rural Wicklow, denied the unfairly subsidised Broadband it needs because it is unfair to the downtrodden Dublin tax payer, suddenly realises that the same Dublin taxpayer depends on Wicklow for its water......ALL of its water.

Wanna go there Ardmore?

M

Hornet

Originally posted by Muck
Lets imagine that Rural Wicklow, denied the unfairly subsidised Broadband it needs because it is unfair to the downtrodden Dublin tax payer, suddenly realises that the same Dublin taxpayer depends on Wicklow for its water......ALL of its water.

Wanna go there Ardmore?

Hmmm, maybe more an example of comparing Apples with Oranges?

(The development of infrastructure for bringing water to Dublin is not mainly being payed by the people in Wicklow and one could assume that the people in Wicklow will benefit from the infrastructural development as well. With fibre rings in Gweedore and Bandon it is a different story!)

I'm with Ardmore on this.

-Hornet