Broadband strategy group convenes

Dustaz

Time to step in.

Dave, with all due respect, i didnt feel that there was anything too wrong with what Adam posted originally. I even agree with most of what he said. The name calling is broderline however, and while its not worse than what other people have said, calling someone a piece of excrement is not something that is encouraged here. Maybe Adam could edit that himself. Having said that it IS the opinion of a member and its illegal. If a commitee member said these things, then i would be a lot more worried (as an ireland offline memeber).


Adam, shut up. I was with you untill that last post. This topic has nothing whatsoever to do with the future direction of Ireland Offline or even the current direction of it. Dont hi-jack it to grind your very sharp axe. Oh yeh, watch the libel too please (unless you have personally weighed Bills arse :P )

Dangger

Ah controversy returns to the forum at last. All is good.

Lets battle each other for another few weeks over a constitution and then just hope some people step up to fill the shoes of the current committee. Rest assured the constitution is coming, but not until the next AGM/EGM, which as I have said most recently has been put back most likely to June, to ensure people have *all the notice they need.*

Perhaps its time to split this thread Mods?

Adam, just as you feel IOFFL cannot represent the members of it's own forum, and Mike is representing "both sides of the coin", I do not think that IOFFL can take your comments to be representative of the membership of IrelandOffline. You sure do shout the loudest but who are you representing with your calls?

What do you envisage as changing with a constitution in place?

The current committee set up has evolved to a stage where we can effectively tackle the various submission documents we need to write up, handle the media to a varying degree depending on related events, and speak at and attend various events. We have seen workgroups fall by the wayside owing to the impossible load being put on the few willing to row in.

Do members need to be handheld in all of their actions, or should they be provided with a single point of contact where all the information we envisage is required to win this battle is made available?

Part of the problem with using the membership effectively has been delegating to competant willing individuals, combined with the extra demands it places on the core committee.

Heres an example. I'd like to see a weekly newsletter with all telecom related events in the news that week relevant to us condensed and using some of the great discussion on this forum. But we currently do not have the resources to do this. Only the other day a committee member actually took a day of work to complete a ComReg submission, which does signal to me that we are stretching ourselves, but we are not going to find the answer in a constitution. Are we?

P.S.
I'm looking for answers here not holes to be picked in my points only to have them stuck in my back.

dahamsta

I won't edit the post - what's said is said - but I'll shut up now. Well, in a minute: I just want to say quickly in my defense that the rant arose out of a genuine complaint that I believe /was/ relevant. I concede that I went on a bit, and I even considered not posting the full content, but decided that the defensible assertion required context. I also believe utterly in that context, and I don't view it as axe-grinding, but the expression of a valid concern.

On the matter of Bill Murphy's ass, I honestly think it's quite funny that people seem to find that more offensive that the excrement comment. My ass is much bigger than Bills, and I'm told to get off it regularly. Never really bothered me before, but I think I'll will in future. I might even cry.

Now I'll shut up.

[EDIT: Dave, Dustaz has asked me to shut up so I have. If he wants to split the topic and ok my input again, I'll gladly respond.]

adam

bk

Originally posted by dahamsta

As I've said before, I don't think IrelandOffline really represents me any more, and I personally believe that it no longer has the right to claim that it represents the people of this forum, or consumers, or businesses. At this stage, all it represents is what it believes it represents. All David Long represents at this stage is David Long, and the small number of people on the committee he chairs.

And who has suddenly made you all knowing Adam?

I'm a member of this forum and a member of IOFFL right from the start (back on ie.comp) and I'm in full support of the committee and frankly I find it hypocritical that you believe you can speak for the forum and me when I never voted for you and you have no idea of my opinions.

Also this forum isn't IOFFL, there are many members of IOFFL who never come to this board. There are many on ie.comp, there are many who just receive the mailing list and like myself until about two months ago there are many who just lurk here on boards. You can call these the silent mass of IOFFL members.
Remember IOFFL has a couple thousand members (cant remember exact figure?), yet only about 100 people post here regularly.

The only way you could honestly judge the members opinion of IOFFL is by sending out a survey to all members and I believe Adam that you would be shocked at the level of support and respect that the IOFFL committee has.

If you truly believe that you can do a better job, then why don't you? There is no one stopping you from setting up your own organisation (like eircomtribunal did). It is all fine and good mouthing off, by when it comes to putting your own time and energy into something, many people just give up.

It is so easy to complain, but it is much harder to actually do something about it.

MDR

The only way you could honestly judge the members opinion of IOFFL is by sending out a survey to all members

amen to that brother ....

Hornet

Interesting discussion, unfortunately it has not much to do with the topic anymore.

Still, here is my 2 cent worth:

We all know (or should know by now) that neither Eircom nor EsatBT are too interested in their end customers. Their only interest is a financial one. IF you want to hurt them, that's the ONLY target you have.

Individuals leading these companies either believe the company propaganda or at least have to represent it publicly. I had a certain level of hope that Bill Murphy would change EsatBT to the better, but when I found out that the Irish operation has to be EBITDA positive by March (!) it became clear, that they will follow the Eircom route: Sweat the assets and bunker as much money as possible while investing as little as possible.

I have NO idea if Bill Murphy (or Phil Nolan) would have the ability or the willingness to change anything in their respective company, but I can see and understand that not much will happen.

Keeping that in mind, I find dahamsta's (and others') personal attacks unjustified and improper. I am NOT saying their opinions are wrong, but it seems that a certain level of frustration and disappointment about the company's politics is vented against an individual.

Yes, this individual is in the role that _normally_ should be the leading and direction giving role. But believe me Soros et al (in Eircom) and BT (in EsatBT) don't give their Irish CEO puppets much room to manouvre.

On a different subject: I think the discussion about IOFFL's direction and future mission and who IOFFL represents is relevant and important, but it seems to me (with VERY little knowledge about IOFFL in general) that a discussion of issues and topics would be more helpful than a blanket "You guys don't represent me, so shut up!"-approach. To me as an outsider, David Long and others are doing a good job in making IOFFL heard and it requires quite a bit of dedication to do that.

Third subject: I totally agree with the people who said that it is about time to stop complaining and to DO something and I mentioned that a few times in another discussion.

Complaining is good and important, but if you guys don't DO something about what annoys you, you will be dependent on Eircom and Esat forever. IrishWISP, IrishBroadBand and a number of other companies (even MediaSat in their slightly mis-guided) way are offering alternatives. It might not yet be perfect, it might not satisfy your personal needs, but they are DOING something. Their motives are not altruistic and very often you will experience frustration with limited coverage or long lead times or "many plans but little reality", but isn't it better than doing nothing?

I can't shake off the feeling that a number of people on the IOFFL board became so frustrated over the years, that they developed into semi-professional complainers and flamers.

Fourth subject: "Broadband strategy group" A talking shop of civil servants with IBEC and ALTO will not change the world. It is a start, but it is not enough by far. There is NO full representation of Irish Telcos in any grouping and there is NO full representation of Irish Users in any grouping. IBEC and ALTO are not doing a bad job, but you need to have a good bit of money to be a member. This is a dangerous approach for a representing body. IOFFL is seen by many as the representative of the Internet freaks and Power Users and I think it has to widen its scope. So the Broadband Strategy Group is another missed chance!

I probably missed another few topics that were all discussed or mentioned in this thread, but bottom line is: Let's flame less and do more. There is a LOT to do!

-Hornet

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Hornet

Don't call him a "great guy" if he isn't. Yes, do call him (or anybody else) a twat or something similar if you think it applies.

But I think there are degrees of "abuse". I would think "twat" is a LOT weaker than what was said in the mail that started the discussion about the use of certain _levels_ of abuse in postings.

OHP

2 Wrongs don't make a right. While I agree with Adam's point, I feel he should be asked to calm down in his wording. But his point is still valid one. Ok Many people here have called a Spade a Spade and Adam was one of the first people to clamp down on them (as a Mod) but judging from his post he is only saying it as he sees it, as do a lot of us. In fairness from what I have seen he helps a lot (even behind the sceenes) So now and then it might just get the better of him and he lets off some steam. Don't loose a worker for the sake of a Leader. Leaders cant lead without them.


OHP

LFCFan

Right, that's it. I've heard enough. As a man that seems to hate Esat more than most, I am offering Adam the domain, http://www.esatsucks.com in the hope that it will ease his pain somewhat. It's yours if you want it Adam, webspace and all.

spongebob

Thats a fabulous pressie LFCFAN

Adam will surely not be too churlish to refuse his very very own ESATSUCKS domain, hosted and all.

I look forward to the day when I can post star free missives about that ****er Bill Murphy in there. Who gives a **** what ESAT think about it.

M

yellum

LFCFan, he'll have a nice pair then. Check the website in his profile.

yellum

Originally posted by OHP
Don't loose a worker for the sake of a Leader. Leaders cant lead without them.

I'm going to use and remember that. Tis a very valid point in realtion to everything a person takes part in.

DonegalMan

Originally posted by dahamsta
This is pretty far fetched, imo.

I remember at least one occasion when Eircom pulled out of a public meeting, citing the attitude of posters on the IrelandOffline forum as the reason. I remember everyone agreeing that it was a weak, pathetic excuse at the time.

Your memory serves you badly on this occasion, Adam.

Eircom didn't pull out of any meeting to my knowledge. They threatened to pull out of our seminar, not because of the insulting nature of posts, it was due to the aggressive nature of some posts - suggestions of physically attacking their representatives and talk of bombs under cars!

AFAIR, the general attitude of members was that Eircom's reaction was a bit OTT, that the poster was obviously joking but in the context of the feelings of people at that time towards Eircom, it was hard to criticise them.

After personal assurances from myself as then Chairman, they did participate in the seminar and, whilst they did not particularly like what we had to say, they did commend us on the the professional way in which the conference was handled.

Martin Harran

DonegalMan

Originally posted by dahamsta
But it's my view that IrelandOffline has become - through the fine work of it's leaders, something I respect and appreciate - an organisation to be reckoned with, and that the organisation is at this stage too important and too valuable to be left in the hands of what is effectively a dictatorship, albeit a benevolent one.

Adam,
I can't really understand where you are coming from with this sort of comment.

You know as well as I do that the IOFFL committee has tried time and time again to broaden the base of the committee and get more people actively involved. Like most voluntary organisations, however, there is no shortage of people suggesting more things the committee should do but a deafening silence when there is an appeal for people to actually do these things.

I'm not saying that IOFFL is perfect - there are many more things it could have done - but the achievements to date are outstanding when you take into account its voluntary nature and the small number of people actively doing something, not for any monetary reward but purely on a goodwill basis.

Martin Harran