Broadband strategy group convenes

yellum

Broadband strategy group convenes

"In his push to stimulate broadband rollout, the Minister for Communications introduced the new heads of the Telecoms Strategy Group at its first meeting. "

http://www.enn.ie/news.html?code=9350378

The first aim of this group is to devise policies for broadband delivery in Ireland," said Ahern at the inaugural meeting. "Over the coming months I want to work with the telecoms companies to prove that Ireland can support advanced broadband services." An initial report on what the Telecoms Strategy Group concludes is due in a mere three months.

"Work" with the Telecoms companies ... hmmm right. Teaching a rabid dog to sing the national anthem would be easier.

Esat BT chief Bill Murphy has suggested schemes whereby demand for broadband in non-urban areas could be ascertained before rollout proceeds, thus offering telecoms more incentive to invest in the required infrastructure. Similar schemes have been used, with great success, by Esat BT parent British Telecom in Devon and Cornwall.

Why the **** don't you do it then Bill ? You have the damned software don't you ? Your parent company is doing it. Or do you want another grant from the government before Esat BT gets off its hole and offers a service to customers ?

dahamsta

Why the **** don't you do it then Bill ? You have the damned software don't you ? Your parent company is doing it. Or do you want another grant from the government before Esat BT gets off its hole and offers a service to customers ?

I was just about to post the same rant. Murphy, you're full of sh1t. You can't even install xDSL in the suburban exchanges in Cork, never mind rural areas, you useless piece of excrement.

adam

Dangger

Surely the above offensive comments do not belong in this forum.

Call me a prude but I find them offensive in the extreme.

iwb

Agreed. There is no need to become personal with anyone no matter what their position or perceived effectiveness. It happens all too often on these pages.
How about trying to be professional?

On another note, is Ireland Offline participating in this group?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by iwb
On another note, is Ireland Offline participating in this group?

As far as I can tell, it is only for vested commercial interests. It is not like the broadband stakeholders group in the UK.

yellum

I find Bill Murphys comments offensive in the extreme. I find it very insulting to me and people around me that Esat BT does nothing unless they are coaxed by the Government with cash. This forum is proof theres interest yet they ignore it.

Esat BT have had the ability to gauge interest for months and didn't bother.

I think my comments and Adams comments while bitchy are pretty fair and honest. Its a change from trying to coax them into action by trying to get cosy with them.

Dangger

On another note, is Ireland Offline participating in this group?

IrelandOffline wrote a letter to Eamonn Molloy, co-chair of the group yesterday, to investigate who was representing probably the greatest number of Stakeholders, ie the home user and SME's on this board.

We cited first hand experience of the inadequate representation this group gets in telecoms matters, and how we feel we have a relevant and worthy contribution to make.

I will probably make the letter public later, and we will keep people posted on our progress.

ednwireland

agreed yellum i get totally fed up with eshatbt's posturing trying to take the high moral ground saying look at how good we are, we are slightly cheaper than eircom, but we ain't going to do anything to improve our infrastructure.
basically eircon and eshat bt are the same side of the same coin
we won't compete and we will only rollout infrastructure if the gov. funds it
living in donegal esat have always ignored us up here and (mobile and fixed line ) their network doesn't even get up here.
we should boycott all o2 and eshatbt services not that they'd care.

dahamsta

As far as I'm concerned, Murphy's comment are rubbish; and when it comes to the needs of the consumer, Murphy has been absolutely useless. So he's full of sh1t, and he's a useless piece of excrement.

If you want offensive Dave, I'd be only too happy to oblige.

adam

Dangger

Its a change from trying to coax them into action by trying to get cosy with them.

And I hope it works for you. I on the other hand meet with these people from time to time. I don't think I'd get far spewing venom in their face however.

Dangger

If you want offensive Dave, I'd be only too happy to oblige.

Perhaps you misunderstood me Adam. What makes yu think I want offensive?

I think the offensive nature of your comment serves little purpose, if it affects anyone its me when I meet with these people and try to have IOFFL's membership taken seriously.

Please think about that before you post more remarks on the subject. How can we expect to be taken seriously with comments like that? I feel its childish and has no place on the forum, in fact I would consider it should have been seen to by the mods. But I admit that perhaps I am not up to speed on how such posts are usually handled.

thegills

EshatBT have done nothing significant to improve their infratsructure in Ireland. They were handed a national network through CIE, were handed the WDC which lays idle. They were also given fibre networks in Raheen, NTP and Shannon Business parks. They rarely expand these networks.

The IDA, Shannon Development and IBEC have continuosly proved that there is a demand for Broadband but still EshatBT ignore it.

To give you an example, there are 3 large companies in Shannon, side by side. The outer 2 are serviced by fibre from EshatBT and eircom. Neither is interested in providing the centre company with a connection??

Dangger

I'm not stating a position on how I feel EsatBT have behaved. I am just having a problem seeing it used as a justification for nasty personal comments.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by ednwireland
agreed yellum i get totally fed up with eshatbt's posturing trying to take the high moral ground saying look at how good we are, we are slightly cheaper than eircom, but we ain't going to do anything to improve our infrastructure.
basically eircon and eshat bt are the same side of the same coin

Along with others, I'm increasingly thinking that the future solution involves going outside these companies. For all our complaints of IBB and IrishWisp, these small companies are really making a difference within their currently small areas. Because they are not worried about protecting revenues elsewhere, they are not charging a fortune for their services, and they are probably doing it for a fraction of the cost of the established telcos. What we need is more of these around the country and then we could tell Esat, NTL, Chorus and Eircom where to shove it.

iwb

This should never get personal. Bill Murphy might be working for anyone. He may not be doing a very good job. That is a matter for conjecture. However, he personally shouldn't be abused here or anywhere else although his perceived performance or that of his company is certainly up for grabs. It's that simple.

bk

Calling Esat names really isn't going to help, do you really think Esat are going to change because Adam calls them names, I don't think so.

However the name calling can have a negative effect, IOFFL needs to be taken seriously as a professional, well organised group, if it is going to have any sway with the polticians, media, telcos, etc.

If they think we are all a bunch of hotheads then we will never get any meetings with these people, representation on the various bodies or press coverage.

Of course everybody has a right to say whatever they think about Esat and the other companies. But there is no need for the name calling and personal attacks, keep it civil please.

bk

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Along with others, I'm increasingly thinking that the future solution involves going outside these companies. For all our complaints of IBB and IrishWisp, these small companies are really making a difference within their currently small areas. Because they are not worried about protecting revenues elsewhere, they are not charging a fortune for their services, and they are probably doing it for a fraction of the cost of the established telcos. What we need is more of these around the country and then we could tell Esat, NTL, Chorus and Eircom where to shove it.

I agreee 100% with this, we will only have true competiton in the market when there are multiple competing bb platforms that don't really on Eirocm in any way.

As soon as FRIACO and the new DSL products are gotten off the ground, I think the IOFFL committee should focus on the promotion of alternative platforms (I believe the ESB could be another interesting avenue).

dahamsta

Sorry guys, but I call a spade a spade. The concept of demand registration was mooted by Esat BT LAST YEAR. Now Murphy is mooting it again. It would be slightly more constructive if he got off his fat ass, asked BT for the software, and implemented it. Like I said at least two months ago, I'll do it for them for free. It won't take me months to do it, it'll take days.

I call someone who behaves in that way an assh0le. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. If you don't like it, bite me.

adam

bk

Originally posted by dahamsta
Sorry guys, but I call a spade a spade. The concept of demand registration was mooted by Esat BT LAST YEAR. Now Murphy is mooting it again. It would be slightly more constructive if he got off his fat ass, asked BT for the software, and implemented it. Like I said at least two months ago, I'll do it for them for free. It won't take me months to do it, it'll take days.

I call someone who behaves in that way an assh0le. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. If you don't like it, bite me.

adam

Above is what you said, but below is how you could put it:

The concept of demand registration was mooted by Esat BT LAST YEAR. Now Murphy is mooting it again. It would be slightly more constructive if he got on with it , asked BT for the software, and implemented it. Like I said at least two months ago, I'll do it for them for free. It won't take me months to do it, it'll take days.

Almost exactly the same thing, you still get your point across but without the expletives.

yellum

Whats so wrong with showing your utter contempt and frustration ?

What the hell has been gotten from being nice to Esat ? These were the people that inspired the creation of IOFFL. Right now I find them to be worse than Eircom.

They could have done what UTV did, they had far more resources to do so, but they didn't. They didn't want to try. They seem more interested in leeching from the Irish taxpayer than getting off their ass and doing something. When some Telco related event happens they shove out a press release complaining nobody wants their badly marketed service with little availability.

This latest Magic Murphy Missive is typical bull****. Theres no other word for it. I bet any money that a meeting you have with Esat will be all so nice and lovely and they'll try and somehow blame their crap interaction with the public on bold people on the IOFFL forum using language.

I can imagine what one of Bills minions will say to IOFFL "We're so upset that people have shown how frustrated they are with us. Can you gag them ? All we did was do nothing in our cosy duopoly with Eircom. How are we the bad guys. We're not. That guy dahamsta is. "

I thought it would be very clear now that its only when these people in EsatBT and Eircom are challenged by people not accepting their spin and telling them to cut the crap or when theres competition like UTV will they do something.

Look how fast they moved with Netsmart once UTV came out. That will tell you their capabilities. They can bring about change if they want, but do they want to ?

dahamsta

I'm accused of being a fascist regularly on Foot.ie because I disallow profanity on the forums. Occasionally though, I let people vent a little, because they've been driven past limits.

In the last few days, I've discovered that the DoJ is trying to hold shrouded meetings about data retention. I've discovered that the European Union is sending my data outside their juristiction without my permission. I'm being threatened by Eircom and An Post with legal action for mistakes that THEY made. I'm called an Anti-American because I'm Anti_An_American.

More on-topic, I still don't have DSL and I have no idea when I'll get it. I will likely never be able to get cable Internet because of the incompetence of Etain Doyle. I don't have a wireless connection, I can't afford a satellite connection. When I read the news, I see rubbish and lies spoken by the people involved. I see propaganda by Bill Murphy, a man I actually thought might make a change.

He's not going to make a change though. Esat BT may change operationally, but they won't change philosophy. Neither will Eircom. Screw the customer. Overcharge them. Welsh on them. Fvck them. Eircom, Esat, Chorus, NTL, Etain Doyle, the satellite providers, the ISPs, they're all liars, and cheats, and thieves. I don't respect them, I don't like them.

So Bill Murphy can bite me. Etain Doyle can eat me. Phil Nolan can screw himself. Tony O'Reilly can crawl up my ass and die.

If that offends you, tough. Complain to a mod.

adam

yellum

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Along with others, I'm increasingly thinking that the future solution involves going outside these companies. For all our complaints of IBB and IrishWisp, these small companies are really making a difference within their currently small areas. Because they are not worried about protecting revenues elsewhere, they are not charging a fortune for their services, and they are probably doing it for a fraction of the cost of the established telcos.

Completely agree Mike. The government is begining to see this too but why on earth they then decided to give O2 a load of cash to provide alternatives intrigues me.

IBB and IrishWisp are out there without government cash and are hopefully doing well. If these companies even got the interest off the money the government poured into half assed broadband initiatives then they could expand into so many markets.

Wireless has its problems though. You need backhaul in most places that don't have access to the fast lines. Backhaul can be tricky and expensive.

The Wireless tech that Chorus uses (well doesn't actually .. ) is non line of sight and is in its own band so theres no interference. The equipment cost is huge for the deployer though. There could be a massive leap in enabling net access if the govt did the same thing as the Metro Fibre idea. Public Private partnerships and buying all the equipment for each area in bulk and reselling at cost. Lock these companies into tough but realistic goals and if they're not met give the licence to someone else.

While its good to seek out all the alternatives there should also be moves to force out dsl too. The infrastructure for this is already there. It should be used to its full potential.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by yellum
This latest Magic Murphy Missive is typical bull****. Theres no other word for it. I bet any money that a meeting you have with Esat will be all so nice and lovely and they'll try and somehow blame their crap interaction with the public on bold people on the IOFFL forum using language.

I can imagine what one of Bills minions will say to IOFFL "We're so upset that people have shown how frustrated they are with us. Can you gag them ? All we did was do nothing in our cosy duopoly with Eircom. How are we the bad guys. We're not. That guy dahamsta is. "

This is pretty far fetched, imo. If anything, the way dahamsta expresses himself, detracts from any credibility he might have had and is therefore less of a threat than he would otherwise be.

People mouthing off on the IOFFL forum is probably what Esat, Eircom and the other telcos want because it alienates those who might be in a position to make a difference.

scojones

Adam, you should put that rant on the back of a t-shirt and wear it to the LinuxWorld conference

dahamsta

This is pretty far fetched, imo.

I remember at least one occasion when Eircom pulled out of a public meeting, citing the attitude of posters on the IrelandOffline forum as the reason. I remember everyone agreeing that it was a weak, pathetic excuse at the time.

Anyway, this is my last post on the issue. I've said my piece.

adam

Dangger

Whats so wrong with showing your utter contempt and frustration ?

Nothing at all, in fact the Irish are excellent at it. It's our failure to do anything else but show our utter contempt and frustration that gets us no where.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
This is pretty far fetched, imo.

I remember at least one occasion when Eircom pulled out of a public meeting, citing the attitude of posters on the IrelandOffline forum as the reason. I remember everyone agreeing that it was a weak, pathetic excuse at the time.

My point exactly. They are looking for excuses to maginalise user groups. Lets not hand them these excuses on a plate. The best way we can do this is through rational argument, criticism combined with positive suggestions as to how things might be done better.

yellum

Originally posted by SkepticOne
My point exactly. They are looking for excuses to maginalise user groups. Lets not hand them these excuses on a plate. The best way we can do this is through rational argument, criticism combined with positive suggestions as to how things might be done better.

Kinda like what was done with Mary O'Rourke and Etain Doyle ?

If they are looking for excuses and they go with really stupid ones and you change to prevent those, what do you do when they make up even more retarded excuses. Will you be eventually doing a dance for them ?

Okay, saying that, do you believe that if everyone behaves well and they have no excuses to complain, will they listen then ? Will they actually act though no matter how intelligent the arguments ?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by yellum
Okay, saying that, do you believe that if everyone behaves well and they have no excuses to complain, will they listen then ? Will they actually act though no matter how intelligent the arguments ?

I don't know how much influence this forum has, but I believe that posts that have some content to them have far more influence than those that are merely expressions of frustration. The big telcos probably won't be influenced one way or the other, but we've got to consider those that might visit the forum occasionally who may be in a positition to change things. Are they going to be motivated to change things if all they see are personal insults hurled at the CEOs of telcos? I would maintain that they are more likely to be turned off.

Note that I'm not trying to curb peoples freedom of expression, I'm just pointing out what I think the effect of the posting will have. My point is that intelligent criticism will have far more effect. Dahamsta's personal remark against Murphy is too easily seen as immature and the rest of what he had to say will be ignored.

dahamsta

My point exactly.

You're arguing both sides of the coin Mike. You're telling yellum that it's far fetched that something like that could happen, but you're telling me that my behaviour could be damaging to IrelandOffline if it does. If it's far-fetched that it could happen, why would you care? Because it's not far-fetched, because you were wrong, because yellum was right.

All due respect to your former committee membership Mike, but in all honesty, I think the Chairman of IrelandOffline would be in a much better position to lecture the membership he claims to represent on their behaviour if he gave that membership a reasonable opportunity to drive the organisation's agenda, and implemented the wishes of the few that already have.

As I've said before, I don't think IrelandOffline really represents me any more, and I personally believe that it no longer has the right to claim that it represents the people of this forum, or consumers, or businesses. At this stage, all it represents is what it believes it represents. All David Long represents at this stage is David Long, and the small number of people on the committee he chairs.

This isn't the same as suggesting that Dave and the committee don't have the best interests of the community at heart, and it certainly isn't a suggestion that their actions are malicious or underhand. I would say, however, that I don't believe that he or IrelandOffline has any right to claim to represent the community any more, and shouldn't do so until such time as the committee embraces democracy via a constitution.

Perhaps I'm being hyprocritical, after all I wasn't voted to the committee of IrelandOffline myself. But it's my view that IrelandOffline has become - through the fine work of it's leaders, something I respect and appreciate - an organisation to be reckoned with, and that the organisation is at this stage too important and too valuable to be left in the hands of what is effectively a dictatorship, albeit a benevolent one.

By the way, I genuinely don't care whether my comments about Bill Murphy will be ignored by Bill Murphy, or by Esat BT. I don't believe that Esat BT has the capability to change it's underlying philosophy of greed and deceit. My comments were certainly an expression of frustration, but if they were directed at anyone, they were directed at my peers here. I think many of them would agree with me.

adam

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
My point exactly.

You're arguing both sides of the coin Mike. You're telling yellum that it's far fetched that something like that could happen, but you're telling me that my behaviour could be damaging to IrelandOffline if it does. If it's far-fetched that it could happen, why would you care? Because it's not far-fetched, because you were wrong, because yellum was right.

No. Yellum said this:

"I can imagine what one of Bills minions will say to IOFFL "We're so upset that people have shown how frustrated they are with us. Can you gag them ? All we did was do nothing in our cosy duopoly with Eircom. How are we the bad guys. We're not. That guy dahamsta is. "

I believe it is far fetched that they should be concerned about gagging you. I doub't if they really care one way or another.

What they may be looking to do is show up IOFFL as a bunch of immature inefectual ranters. If they wished to do this, they could point to postings which demonstrate this, in which case your personal insult at Murphy might suit them.

Dustaz

Time to step in.

Dave, with all due respect, i didnt feel that there was anything too wrong with what Adam posted originally. I even agree with most of what he said. The name calling is broderline however, and while its not worse than what other people have said, calling someone a piece of excrement is not something that is encouraged here. Maybe Adam could edit that himself. Having said that it IS the opinion of a member and its illegal. If a commitee member said these things, then i would be a lot more worried (as an ireland offline memeber).


Adam, shut up. I was with you untill that last post. This topic has nothing whatsoever to do with the future direction of Ireland Offline or even the current direction of it. Dont hi-jack it to grind your very sharp axe. Oh yeh, watch the libel too please (unless you have personally weighed Bills arse :P )

Dangger

Ah controversy returns to the forum at last. All is good.

Lets battle each other for another few weeks over a constitution and then just hope some people step up to fill the shoes of the current committee. Rest assured the constitution is coming, but not until the next AGM/EGM, which as I have said most recently has been put back most likely to June, to ensure people have *all the notice they need.*

Perhaps its time to split this thread Mods?

Adam, just as you feel IOFFL cannot represent the members of it's own forum, and Mike is representing "both sides of the coin", I do not think that IOFFL can take your comments to be representative of the membership of IrelandOffline. You sure do shout the loudest but who are you representing with your calls?

What do you envisage as changing with a constitution in place?

The current committee set up has evolved to a stage where we can effectively tackle the various submission documents we need to write up, handle the media to a varying degree depending on related events, and speak at and attend various events. We have seen workgroups fall by the wayside owing to the impossible load being put on the few willing to row in.

Do members need to be handheld in all of their actions, or should they be provided with a single point of contact where all the information we envisage is required to win this battle is made available?

Part of the problem with using the membership effectively has been delegating to competant willing individuals, combined with the extra demands it places on the core committee.

Heres an example. I'd like to see a weekly newsletter with all telecom related events in the news that week relevant to us condensed and using some of the great discussion on this forum. But we currently do not have the resources to do this. Only the other day a committee member actually took a day of work to complete a ComReg submission, which does signal to me that we are stretching ourselves, but we are not going to find the answer in a constitution. Are we?

P.S.
I'm looking for answers here not holes to be picked in my points only to have them stuck in my back.

dahamsta

I won't edit the post - what's said is said - but I'll shut up now. Well, in a minute: I just want to say quickly in my defense that the rant arose out of a genuine complaint that I believe /was/ relevant. I concede that I went on a bit, and I even considered not posting the full content, but decided that the defensible assertion required context. I also believe utterly in that context, and I don't view it as axe-grinding, but the expression of a valid concern.

On the matter of Bill Murphy's ass, I honestly think it's quite funny that people seem to find that more offensive that the excrement comment. My ass is much bigger than Bills, and I'm told to get off it regularly. Never really bothered me before, but I think I'll will in future. I might even cry.

Now I'll shut up.

[EDIT: Dave, Dustaz has asked me to shut up so I have. If he wants to split the topic and ok my input again, I'll gladly respond.]

adam

bk

Originally posted by dahamsta

As I've said before, I don't think IrelandOffline really represents me any more, and I personally believe that it no longer has the right to claim that it represents the people of this forum, or consumers, or businesses. At this stage, all it represents is what it believes it represents. All David Long represents at this stage is David Long, and the small number of people on the committee he chairs.

And who has suddenly made you all knowing Adam?

I'm a member of this forum and a member of IOFFL right from the start (back on ie.comp) and I'm in full support of the committee and frankly I find it hypocritical that you believe you can speak for the forum and me when I never voted for you and you have no idea of my opinions.

Also this forum isn't IOFFL, there are many members of IOFFL who never come to this board. There are many on ie.comp, there are many who just receive the mailing list and like myself until about two months ago there are many who just lurk here on boards. You can call these the silent mass of IOFFL members.
Remember IOFFL has a couple thousand members (cant remember exact figure?), yet only about 100 people post here regularly.

The only way you could honestly judge the members opinion of IOFFL is by sending out a survey to all members and I believe Adam that you would be shocked at the level of support and respect that the IOFFL committee has.

If you truly believe that you can do a better job, then why don't you? There is no one stopping you from setting up your own organisation (like eircomtribunal did). It is all fine and good mouthing off, by when it comes to putting your own time and energy into something, many people just give up.

It is so easy to complain, but it is much harder to actually do something about it.

MDR

The only way you could honestly judge the members opinion of IOFFL is by sending out a survey to all members

amen to that brother ....

Hornet

Interesting discussion, unfortunately it has not much to do with the topic anymore.

Still, here is my 2 cent worth:

We all know (or should know by now) that neither Eircom nor EsatBT are too interested in their end customers. Their only interest is a financial one. IF you want to hurt them, that's the ONLY target you have.

Individuals leading these companies either believe the company propaganda or at least have to represent it publicly. I had a certain level of hope that Bill Murphy would change EsatBT to the better, but when I found out that the Irish operation has to be EBITDA positive by March (!) it became clear, that they will follow the Eircom route: Sweat the assets and bunker as much money as possible while investing as little as possible.

I have NO idea if Bill Murphy (or Phil Nolan) would have the ability or the willingness to change anything in their respective company, but I can see and understand that not much will happen.

Keeping that in mind, I find dahamsta's (and others') personal attacks unjustified and improper. I am NOT saying their opinions are wrong, but it seems that a certain level of frustration and disappointment about the company's politics is vented against an individual.

Yes, this individual is in the role that _normally_ should be the leading and direction giving role. But believe me Soros et al (in Eircom) and BT (in EsatBT) don't give their Irish CEO puppets much room to manouvre.

On a different subject: I think the discussion about IOFFL's direction and future mission and who IOFFL represents is relevant and important, but it seems to me (with VERY little knowledge about IOFFL in general) that a discussion of issues and topics would be more helpful than a blanket "You guys don't represent me, so shut up!"-approach. To me as an outsider, David Long and others are doing a good job in making IOFFL heard and it requires quite a bit of dedication to do that.

Third subject: I totally agree with the people who said that it is about time to stop complaining and to DO something and I mentioned that a few times in another discussion.

Complaining is good and important, but if you guys don't DO something about what annoys you, you will be dependent on Eircom and Esat forever. IrishWISP, IrishBroadBand and a number of other companies (even MediaSat in their slightly mis-guided) way are offering alternatives. It might not yet be perfect, it might not satisfy your personal needs, but they are DOING something. Their motives are not altruistic and very often you will experience frustration with limited coverage or long lead times or "many plans but little reality", but isn't it better than doing nothing?

I can't shake off the feeling that a number of people on the IOFFL board became so frustrated over the years, that they developed into semi-professional complainers and flamers.

Fourth subject: "Broadband strategy group" A talking shop of civil servants with IBEC and ALTO will not change the world. It is a start, but it is not enough by far. There is NO full representation of Irish Telcos in any grouping and there is NO full representation of Irish Users in any grouping. IBEC and ALTO are not doing a bad job, but you need to have a good bit of money to be a member. This is a dangerous approach for a representing body. IOFFL is seen by many as the representative of the Internet freaks and Power Users and I think it has to widen its scope. So the Broadband Strategy Group is another missed chance!

I probably missed another few topics that were all discussed or mentioned in this thread, but bottom line is: Let's flame less and do more. There is a LOT to do!

-Hornet

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Hornet

Don't call him a "great guy" if he isn't. Yes, do call him (or anybody else) a twat or something similar if you think it applies.

But I think there are degrees of "abuse". I would think "twat" is a LOT weaker than what was said in the mail that started the discussion about the use of certain _levels_ of abuse in postings.

OHP

2 Wrongs don't make a right. While I agree with Adam's point, I feel he should be asked to calm down in his wording. But his point is still valid one. Ok Many people here have called a Spade a Spade and Adam was one of the first people to clamp down on them (as a Mod) but judging from his post he is only saying it as he sees it, as do a lot of us. In fairness from what I have seen he helps a lot (even behind the sceenes) So now and then it might just get the better of him and he lets off some steam. Don't loose a worker for the sake of a Leader. Leaders cant lead without them.


OHP

LFCFan

Right, that's it. I've heard enough. As a man that seems to hate Esat more than most, I am offering Adam the domain, http://www.esatsucks.com in the hope that it will ease his pain somewhat. It's yours if you want it Adam, webspace and all.

spongebob

Thats a fabulous pressie LFCFAN

Adam will surely not be too churlish to refuse his very very own ESATSUCKS domain, hosted and all.

I look forward to the day when I can post star free missives about that ****er Bill Murphy in there. Who gives a **** what ESAT think about it.

M

yellum

LFCFan, he'll have a nice pair then. Check the website in his profile.

yellum

Originally posted by OHP
Don't loose a worker for the sake of a Leader. Leaders cant lead without them.

I'm going to use and remember that. Tis a very valid point in realtion to everything a person takes part in.

DonegalMan

Originally posted by dahamsta
This is pretty far fetched, imo.

I remember at least one occasion when Eircom pulled out of a public meeting, citing the attitude of posters on the IrelandOffline forum as the reason. I remember everyone agreeing that it was a weak, pathetic excuse at the time.

Your memory serves you badly on this occasion, Adam.

Eircom didn't pull out of any meeting to my knowledge. They threatened to pull out of our seminar, not because of the insulting nature of posts, it was due to the aggressive nature of some posts - suggestions of physically attacking their representatives and talk of bombs under cars!

AFAIR, the general attitude of members was that Eircom's reaction was a bit OTT, that the poster was obviously joking but in the context of the feelings of people at that time towards Eircom, it was hard to criticise them.

After personal assurances from myself as then Chairman, they did participate in the seminar and, whilst they did not particularly like what we had to say, they did commend us on the the professional way in which the conference was handled.

Martin Harran

DonegalMan

Originally posted by dahamsta
But it's my view that IrelandOffline has become - through the fine work of it's leaders, something I respect and appreciate - an organisation to be reckoned with, and that the organisation is at this stage too important and too valuable to be left in the hands of what is effectively a dictatorship, albeit a benevolent one.

Adam,
I can't really understand where you are coming from with this sort of comment.

You know as well as I do that the IOFFL committee has tried time and time again to broaden the base of the committee and get more people actively involved. Like most voluntary organisations, however, there is no shortage of people suggesting more things the committee should do but a deafening silence when there is an appeal for people to actually do these things.

I'm not saying that IOFFL is perfect - there are many more things it could have done - but the achievements to date are outstanding when you take into account its voluntary nature and the small number of people actively doing something, not for any monetary reward but purely on a goodwill basis.

Martin Harran