Broadband strategy group convenes

yellum

Broadband strategy group convenes

"In his push to stimulate broadband rollout, the Minister for Communications introduced the new heads of the Telecoms Strategy Group at its first meeting. "

http://www.enn.ie/news.html?code=9350378

The first aim of this group is to devise policies for broadband delivery in Ireland," said Ahern at the inaugural meeting. "Over the coming months I want to work with the telecoms companies to prove that Ireland can support advanced broadband services." An initial report on what the Telecoms Strategy Group concludes is due in a mere three months.

"Work" with the Telecoms companies ... hmmm right. Teaching a rabid dog to sing the national anthem would be easier.

Esat BT chief Bill Murphy has suggested schemes whereby demand for broadband in non-urban areas could be ascertained before rollout proceeds, thus offering telecoms more incentive to invest in the required infrastructure. Similar schemes have been used, with great success, by Esat BT parent British Telecom in Devon and Cornwall.

Why the **** don't you do it then Bill ? You have the damned software don't you ? Your parent company is doing it. Or do you want another grant from the government before Esat BT gets off its hole and offers a service to customers ?

dahamsta

Why the **** don't you do it then Bill ? You have the damned software don't you ? Your parent company is doing it. Or do you want another grant from the government before Esat BT gets off its hole and offers a service to customers ?

I was just about to post the same rant. Murphy, you're full of sh1t. You can't even install xDSL in the suburban exchanges in Cork, never mind rural areas, you useless piece of excrement.

adam

Dangger

Surely the above offensive comments do not belong in this forum.

Call me a prude but I find them offensive in the extreme.

iwb

Agreed. There is no need to become personal with anyone no matter what their position or perceived effectiveness. It happens all too often on these pages.
How about trying to be professional?

On another note, is Ireland Offline participating in this group?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by iwb
On another note, is Ireland Offline participating in this group?

As far as I can tell, it is only for vested commercial interests. It is not like the broadband stakeholders group in the UK.

yellum

I find Bill Murphys comments offensive in the extreme. I find it very insulting to me and people around me that Esat BT does nothing unless they are coaxed by the Government with cash. This forum is proof theres interest yet they ignore it.

Esat BT have had the ability to gauge interest for months and didn't bother.

I think my comments and Adams comments while bitchy are pretty fair and honest. Its a change from trying to coax them into action by trying to get cosy with them.

Dangger

On another note, is Ireland Offline participating in this group?

IrelandOffline wrote a letter to Eamonn Molloy, co-chair of the group yesterday, to investigate who was representing probably the greatest number of Stakeholders, ie the home user and SME's on this board.

We cited first hand experience of the inadequate representation this group gets in telecoms matters, and how we feel we have a relevant and worthy contribution to make.

I will probably make the letter public later, and we will keep people posted on our progress.

ednwireland

agreed yellum i get totally fed up with eshatbt's posturing trying to take the high moral ground saying look at how good we are, we are slightly cheaper than eircom, but we ain't going to do anything to improve our infrastructure.
basically eircon and eshat bt are the same side of the same coin
we won't compete and we will only rollout infrastructure if the gov. funds it
living in donegal esat have always ignored us up here and (mobile and fixed line ) their network doesn't even get up here.
we should boycott all o2 and eshatbt services not that they'd care.

dahamsta

As far as I'm concerned, Murphy's comment are rubbish; and when it comes to the needs of the consumer, Murphy has been absolutely useless. So he's full of sh1t, and he's a useless piece of excrement.

If you want offensive Dave, I'd be only too happy to oblige.

adam

Dangger

Its a change from trying to coax them into action by trying to get cosy with them.

And I hope it works for you. I on the other hand meet with these people from time to time. I don't think I'd get far spewing venom in their face however.

Dangger

If you want offensive Dave, I'd be only too happy to oblige.

Perhaps you misunderstood me Adam. What makes yu think I want offensive?

I think the offensive nature of your comment serves little purpose, if it affects anyone its me when I meet with these people and try to have IOFFL's membership taken seriously.

Please think about that before you post more remarks on the subject. How can we expect to be taken seriously with comments like that? I feel its childish and has no place on the forum, in fact I would consider it should have been seen to by the mods. But I admit that perhaps I am not up to speed on how such posts are usually handled.

thegills

EshatBT have done nothing significant to improve their infratsructure in Ireland. They were handed a national network through CIE, were handed the WDC which lays idle. They were also given fibre networks in Raheen, NTP and Shannon Business parks. They rarely expand these networks.

The IDA, Shannon Development and IBEC have continuosly proved that there is a demand for Broadband but still EshatBT ignore it.

To give you an example, there are 3 large companies in Shannon, side by side. The outer 2 are serviced by fibre from EshatBT and eircom. Neither is interested in providing the centre company with a connection??

Dangger

I'm not stating a position on how I feel EsatBT have behaved. I am just having a problem seeing it used as a justification for nasty personal comments.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by ednwireland
agreed yellum i get totally fed up with eshatbt's posturing trying to take the high moral ground saying look at how good we are, we are slightly cheaper than eircom, but we ain't going to do anything to improve our infrastructure.
basically eircon and eshat bt are the same side of the same coin

Along with others, I'm increasingly thinking that the future solution involves going outside these companies. For all our complaints of IBB and IrishWisp, these small companies are really making a difference within their currently small areas. Because they are not worried about protecting revenues elsewhere, they are not charging a fortune for their services, and they are probably doing it for a fraction of the cost of the established telcos. What we need is more of these around the country and then we could tell Esat, NTL, Chorus and Eircom where to shove it.

iwb

This should never get personal. Bill Murphy might be working for anyone. He may not be doing a very good job. That is a matter for conjecture. However, he personally shouldn't be abused here or anywhere else although his perceived performance or that of his company is certainly up for grabs. It's that simple.

bk

Calling Esat names really isn't going to help, do you really think Esat are going to change because Adam calls them names, I don't think so.

However the name calling can have a negative effect, IOFFL needs to be taken seriously as a professional, well organised group, if it is going to have any sway with the polticians, media, telcos, etc.

If they think we are all a bunch of hotheads then we will never get any meetings with these people, representation on the various bodies or press coverage.

Of course everybody has a right to say whatever they think about Esat and the other companies. But there is no need for the name calling and personal attacks, keep it civil please.

bk

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Along with others, I'm increasingly thinking that the future solution involves going outside these companies. For all our complaints of IBB and IrishWisp, these small companies are really making a difference within their currently small areas. Because they are not worried about protecting revenues elsewhere, they are not charging a fortune for their services, and they are probably doing it for a fraction of the cost of the established telcos. What we need is more of these around the country and then we could tell Esat, NTL, Chorus and Eircom where to shove it.

I agreee 100% with this, we will only have true competiton in the market when there are multiple competing bb platforms that don't really on Eirocm in any way.

As soon as FRIACO and the new DSL products are gotten off the ground, I think the IOFFL committee should focus on the promotion of alternative platforms (I believe the ESB could be another interesting avenue).

dahamsta

Sorry guys, but I call a spade a spade. The concept of demand registration was mooted by Esat BT LAST YEAR. Now Murphy is mooting it again. It would be slightly more constructive if he got off his fat ass, asked BT for the software, and implemented it. Like I said at least two months ago, I'll do it for them for free. It won't take me months to do it, it'll take days.

I call someone who behaves in that way an assh0le. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. If you don't like it, bite me.

adam

bk

Originally posted by dahamsta
Sorry guys, but I call a spade a spade. The concept of demand registration was mooted by Esat BT LAST YEAR. Now Murphy is mooting it again. It would be slightly more constructive if he got off his fat ass, asked BT for the software, and implemented it. Like I said at least two months ago, I'll do it for them for free. It won't take me months to do it, it'll take days.

I call someone who behaves in that way an assh0le. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. If you don't like it, bite me.

adam

Above is what you said, but below is how you could put it:

The concept of demand registration was mooted by Esat BT LAST YEAR. Now Murphy is mooting it again. It would be slightly more constructive if he got on with it , asked BT for the software, and implemented it. Like I said at least two months ago, I'll do it for them for free. It won't take me months to do it, it'll take days.

Almost exactly the same thing, you still get your point across but without the expletives.

yellum

Whats so wrong with showing your utter contempt and frustration ?

What the hell has been gotten from being nice to Esat ? These were the people that inspired the creation of IOFFL. Right now I find them to be worse than Eircom.

They could have done what UTV did, they had far more resources to do so, but they didn't. They didn't want to try. They seem more interested in leeching from the Irish taxpayer than getting off their ass and doing something. When some Telco related event happens they shove out a press release complaining nobody wants their badly marketed service with little availability.

This latest Magic Murphy Missive is typical bull****. Theres no other word for it. I bet any money that a meeting you have with Esat will be all so nice and lovely and they'll try and somehow blame their crap interaction with the public on bold people on the IOFFL forum using language.

I can imagine what one of Bills minions will say to IOFFL "We're so upset that people have shown how frustrated they are with us. Can you gag them ? All we did was do nothing in our cosy duopoly with Eircom. How are we the bad guys. We're not. That guy dahamsta is. "

I thought it would be very clear now that its only when these people in EsatBT and Eircom are challenged by people not accepting their spin and telling them to cut the crap or when theres competition like UTV will they do something.

Look how fast they moved with Netsmart once UTV came out. That will tell you their capabilities. They can bring about change if they want, but do they want to ?

dahamsta

I'm accused of being a fascist regularly on Foot.ie because I disallow profanity on the forums. Occasionally though, I let people vent a little, because they've been driven past limits.

In the last few days, I've discovered that the DoJ is trying to hold shrouded meetings about data retention. I've discovered that the European Union is sending my data outside their juristiction without my permission. I'm being threatened by Eircom and An Post with legal action for mistakes that THEY made. I'm called an Anti-American because I'm Anti_An_American.

More on-topic, I still don't have DSL and I have no idea when I'll get it. I will likely never be able to get cable Internet because of the incompetence of Etain Doyle. I don't have a wireless connection, I can't afford a satellite connection. When I read the news, I see rubbish and lies spoken by the people involved. I see propaganda by Bill Murphy, a man I actually thought might make a change.

He's not going to make a change though. Esat BT may change operationally, but they won't change philosophy. Neither will Eircom. Screw the customer. Overcharge them. Welsh on them. Fvck them. Eircom, Esat, Chorus, NTL, Etain Doyle, the satellite providers, the ISPs, they're all liars, and cheats, and thieves. I don't respect them, I don't like them.

So Bill Murphy can bite me. Etain Doyle can eat me. Phil Nolan can screw himself. Tony O'Reilly can crawl up my ass and die.

If that offends you, tough. Complain to a mod.

adam

yellum

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Along with others, I'm increasingly thinking that the future solution involves going outside these companies. For all our complaints of IBB and IrishWisp, these small companies are really making a difference within their currently small areas. Because they are not worried about protecting revenues elsewhere, they are not charging a fortune for their services, and they are probably doing it for a fraction of the cost of the established telcos.

Completely agree Mike. The government is begining to see this too but why on earth they then decided to give O2 a load of cash to provide alternatives intrigues me.

IBB and IrishWisp are out there without government cash and are hopefully doing well. If these companies even got the interest off the money the government poured into half assed broadband initiatives then they could expand into so many markets.

Wireless has its problems though. You need backhaul in most places that don't have access to the fast lines. Backhaul can be tricky and expensive.

The Wireless tech that Chorus uses (well doesn't actually .. ) is non line of sight and is in its own band so theres no interference. The equipment cost is huge for the deployer though. There could be a massive leap in enabling net access if the govt did the same thing as the Metro Fibre idea. Public Private partnerships and buying all the equipment for each area in bulk and reselling at cost. Lock these companies into tough but realistic goals and if they're not met give the licence to someone else.

While its good to seek out all the alternatives there should also be moves to force out dsl too. The infrastructure for this is already there. It should be used to its full potential.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by yellum
This latest Magic Murphy Missive is typical bull****. Theres no other word for it. I bet any money that a meeting you have with Esat will be all so nice and lovely and they'll try and somehow blame their crap interaction with the public on bold people on the IOFFL forum using language.

I can imagine what one of Bills minions will say to IOFFL "We're so upset that people have shown how frustrated they are with us. Can you gag them ? All we did was do nothing in our cosy duopoly with Eircom. How are we the bad guys. We're not. That guy dahamsta is. "

This is pretty far fetched, imo. If anything, the way dahamsta expresses himself, detracts from any credibility he might have had and is therefore less of a threat than he would otherwise be.

People mouthing off on the IOFFL forum is probably what Esat, Eircom and the other telcos want because it alienates those who might be in a position to make a difference.

scojones

Adam, you should put that rant on the back of a t-shirt and wear it to the LinuxWorld conference

dahamsta

This is pretty far fetched, imo.

I remember at least one occasion when Eircom pulled out of a public meeting, citing the attitude of posters on the IrelandOffline forum as the reason. I remember everyone agreeing that it was a weak, pathetic excuse at the time.

Anyway, this is my last post on the issue. I've said my piece.

adam

Dangger

Whats so wrong with showing your utter contempt and frustration ?

Nothing at all, in fact the Irish are excellent at it. It's our failure to do anything else but show our utter contempt and frustration that gets us no where.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
This is pretty far fetched, imo.

I remember at least one occasion when Eircom pulled out of a public meeting, citing the attitude of posters on the IrelandOffline forum as the reason. I remember everyone agreeing that it was a weak, pathetic excuse at the time.

My point exactly. They are looking for excuses to maginalise user groups. Lets not hand them these excuses on a plate. The best way we can do this is through rational argument, criticism combined with positive suggestions as to how things might be done better.

yellum

Originally posted by SkepticOne
My point exactly. They are looking for excuses to maginalise user groups. Lets not hand them these excuses on a plate. The best way we can do this is through rational argument, criticism combined with positive suggestions as to how things might be done better.

Kinda like what was done with Mary O'Rourke and Etain Doyle ?

If they are looking for excuses and they go with really stupid ones and you change to prevent those, what do you do when they make up even more retarded excuses. Will you be eventually doing a dance for them ?

Okay, saying that, do you believe that if everyone behaves well and they have no excuses to complain, will they listen then ? Will they actually act though no matter how intelligent the arguments ?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by yellum
Okay, saying that, do you believe that if everyone behaves well and they have no excuses to complain, will they listen then ? Will they actually act though no matter how intelligent the arguments ?

I don't know how much influence this forum has, but I believe that posts that have some content to them have far more influence than those that are merely expressions of frustration. The big telcos probably won't be influenced one way or the other, but we've got to consider those that might visit the forum occasionally who may be in a positition to change things. Are they going to be motivated to change things if all they see are personal insults hurled at the CEOs of telcos? I would maintain that they are more likely to be turned off.

Note that I'm not trying to curb peoples freedom of expression, I'm just pointing out what I think the effect of the posting will have. My point is that intelligent criticism will have far more effect. Dahamsta's personal remark against Murphy is too easily seen as immature and the rest of what he had to say will be ignored.

dahamsta

My point exactly.

You're arguing both sides of the coin Mike. You're telling yellum that it's far fetched that something like that could happen, but you're telling me that my behaviour could be damaging to IrelandOffline if it does. If it's far-fetched that it could happen, why would you care? Because it's not far-fetched, because you were wrong, because yellum was right.

All due respect to your former committee membership Mike, but in all honesty, I think the Chairman of IrelandOffline would be in a much better position to lecture the membership he claims to represent on their behaviour if he gave that membership a reasonable opportunity to drive the organisation's agenda, and implemented the wishes of the few that already have.

As I've said before, I don't think IrelandOffline really represents me any more, and I personally believe that it no longer has the right to claim that it represents the people of this forum, or consumers, or businesses. At this stage, all it represents is what it believes it represents. All David Long represents at this stage is David Long, and the small number of people on the committee he chairs.

This isn't the same as suggesting that Dave and the committee don't have the best interests of the community at heart, and it certainly isn't a suggestion that their actions are malicious or underhand. I would say, however, that I don't believe that he or IrelandOffline has any right to claim to represent the community any more, and shouldn't do so until such time as the committee embraces democracy via a constitution.

Perhaps I'm being hyprocritical, after all I wasn't voted to the committee of IrelandOffline myself. But it's my view that IrelandOffline has become - through the fine work of it's leaders, something I respect and appreciate - an organisation to be reckoned with, and that the organisation is at this stage too important and too valuable to be left in the hands of what is effectively a dictatorship, albeit a benevolent one.

By the way, I genuinely don't care whether my comments about Bill Murphy will be ignored by Bill Murphy, or by Esat BT. I don't believe that Esat BT has the capability to change it's underlying philosophy of greed and deceit. My comments were certainly an expression of frustration, but if they were directed at anyone, they were directed at my peers here. I think many of them would agree with me.

adam

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
My point exactly.

You're arguing both sides of the coin Mike. You're telling yellum that it's far fetched that something like that could happen, but you're telling me that my behaviour could be damaging to IrelandOffline if it does. If it's far-fetched that it could happen, why would you care? Because it's not far-fetched, because you were wrong, because yellum was right.

No. Yellum said this:

"I can imagine what one of Bills minions will say to IOFFL "We're so upset that people have shown how frustrated they are with us. Can you gag them ? All we did was do nothing in our cosy duopoly with Eircom. How are we the bad guys. We're not. That guy dahamsta is. "

I believe it is far fetched that they should be concerned about gagging you. I doub't if they really care one way or another.

What they may be looking to do is show up IOFFL as a bunch of immature inefectual ranters. If they wished to do this, they could point to postings which demonstrate this, in which case your personal insult at Murphy might suit them.