Irishwisp Issues [Split from main thread]

Ardmore

Originally posted by DeVore
Here, to remind ourselves, is what was written:
Irish WISP has updated it's web site. New content is available to better describe the service.

Of interest to board members is the press release outlining our response to Eircom's proposed price drop.

Also...have a look at our special offer which enables customers to pay only €42.66 per month.

link: www.irishwisp.net
I fail to see how this is "nothing that mightn't have been posted by any ordinary user of boards".

Friday night, and I'm still here :-(
DeVore, if I happened to have visited the IrishWISP website that afternoon, I might have posted almost exactly that message. "IrishWISP have updated their website. They've got a press release responding to Eircoms price drop, and they have a €42.66!!!!! a month deal!!!!!".

Would you have objected?

That's why I think your characterization of the post was wrong. It was genuinely new information, it was not in any way pushy (heck, he didn't even use an exclamation point!!!! :-) and it wasn't exactly Karls fault that it happened to end up at the top of a page, where it had a slightly higher profile than it might otherwise have had.

It wasn't the equivalent of "someone who sat in the pub all night with you and your mates availing of your hospitality but never bought a round". Not by a long shot.

DeVore

No but then I DIDNT slam him, ban him... lead a load of people over to his website to mess with it, subscribe him to the Church of Scientology, ring his boss, got everyone I could on Boards to mail him or any of the numerous other unpleasantries I've done to blatant advertisers who have come to boards before.
Its true.... I dont deny it or regret it!

"Boards Bites Back" and we take an active role in our own defense.

We even link to them in the sign up mail as a warning to others who would try the same thing.

But all I did was comment that I felt he was abusing our hospitality. I DO get to have opinions still ... right?

So, as I said he got a light chiding and a reminder that we're a community with a certain amount of principle and attitude!
Jesus, I mean, if Philip Nolan reacted like that he'd be a mental wreck by now!

I mean, compared to CDMediaIreland there recently, this wasnt even a slap on the wrist.


Now, you can say I'm a rude person. Many would agree with you. You can even think me an assh*le for taking this tack with advertisers but at least I'm consistent.
And it works... look at the spamtastic usenet or even your email... and compare it to the light and frothy commerical-spam-freeness of Boards... Theres a good reason for that. Its called: Me.
(Its why I have a metal guard dog from Wallace and Gromit as an avatar and the tagline "Bastard Operator From Hell"....)

And if someone else had posted that, it would have been fine. You know why... because they dont work for IW. Yes, that makes a difference.

(I have a SPECIAL treatment reserved for anyone I *ever* catch promoting a company on the sly here... and God help them because noone else will! )



DeV.

Dustaz

Originally posted by Ardmore

That's a straw man, if ever I saw one. The message was 5 days old when you posted, and the moderators had already decided that it was within the limits (though there may have been a change of heart since then).

Nope, i still feel the same about the post as i do now. The only part of it which i feel is objectionable is the last part, but ive outlined the reasons that it stayed above.

I don't honestly think that Karls 10 posts made that big a difference to their visibilty here (credibility, maybe).

It would be my opinion that your dead wrong about that. There was an enourmous reaction to both UTV and IBB as a direct result of postings on this board. Its naive to think that the only people who are made aware of products mentioned here are the people who post regularly. Make no mistake about it, Irishwisp are getting free advertising by the plenty by the thread here and personally i have no problem with that. The problem occurs when pimping takes place and i think Karl skirted close to the line, but I accept that that is not taken care of in the charter, something which will be rectified.

DeVore, if I happened to have visited the IrishWISP website that afternoon, I might have posted almost exactly that message. "IrishWISP have updated their website. They've got a press release responding to Eircoms price drop, and they have a €42.66!!!!! a month deal!!!!!".

If you had posted exactly that, I would have locked the thread. Search for previous examples regarding a dsl reseller for precedent on that.

Hornet

Looks like a heated discussion here!

Am a a Newbie, so feel free to shoot me down, flame me or ignore me. I have no affiliation with any of the people discussing here or being discussed. But I have an opinion about this discussion and a suggestion.

When Karl Martini came on here and described the Irish WISP service, I was wondering how his competitors would feel about it. I had the feeling he saw a great opportunity of genuinely informing people about his services, but he was well aware of the commercial effect his postings could have.

Was he advertising? Yes!
Was the advertisement an "in-your-face" ad? No, not in my opinion.
Was he providing genuine information, which wouldn't have been available otherwise? Yes!
Did his posting contribute in a positive way to the IOFFL board? Yes!
Did he realise that advertisment is not acceptable on this board? I think he genuinely didn't think of it or was aware of it.

So, my conclusion is that Karl unknowingly pushed the limits but he had no right to do so.

Next set of questions and answers:
Was DeVore in his right to tell Karl off? No question, yes! For two reasons:Because he is the boss AND because Karl broke the rules to some extent.
Was DeVore's reaction approriate and reasonable? With all due respect, I think it was not!
Was it crude commercial interests that drove DeVore? I don't think so.
Did Karl realise who or what DeVore is? No!
Was Karl's reaction to DeVore's posting out of line? I don't think so, if you consider that he probably honestly wasn't aware of the rules OR of DeVore's position.

So, if DeVore would have said:
"Karl, I would like to inform you that commercial postings on boards.ie are only accepted and allowed on Commercial boards. This has been pointed out to you in the Rules that you accepted when signing up. As I am the owner of boards.ie, I have to ask you to refrain from commercial postings in non-commercial boards. We are happy to provide you with a commercial board for the price of xyz in which you have full commercial freedom to advertise for your services."

If that would have been DeVore's posting, nobody would have had a right to get upset and this issue wouldn't have come to the boil.

Does that mean Ardmore is wrong? NO! To me the commercial postings Karl posted are commercial because they came from Karl. If Ardmore would have posted the same information, it would not have been commercial. Sounds inconsequent? I don't think so. The reason is that Ardmore would not have had a personal commercial interest, but Karl did.

(One other thing: The fact that Karl made it clear and public that he was a promoter of IrishWISP speaks for him! It was not the hidden advertisement of a first-time-poster, but he didn't hide the fact that he had a vested interest.)

Bottom line: While DeVore was right and in his right to tell Karl off, his directness and non-diplomatic way didn't help calming the issue.

Where does it leave us?

Ideally DeVore, Ardmore and all others will settle the issue very soon, accepting that both sides are right and that their view points do not contradict, but are valid. In addition - and that is the bigger challenge - it would be helpful if DeVore could make a step towards Karl, explaining his reasons for the "telling off" and MAYBE just maybe going as far as to apologise for the forceful tone he used.

(If a mediator would help for the first few steps, I am happy to help.)

So, now I am waiting for the flame war to break out over me!!

-Hornet

sceptre

Bloomin heck, I disppear for 24 hours to do one exam and look what I come home to:)

OK, here's my take on the whole thing:

Firstly the word "pimp":
It's been in use as a verb since at least 1636 and doesn't always mean anything to do with prostitution. In US slang, it's been in use since the 1940s as a term for someone who tries to get somethign out of someone else or pander to them (which, incidentally, was also the original meaning). It's been adopted in latter years by some of the internet community to mean someone who's pushing sales in a big way, even after an invitation to make representations (badly explained but I'm pretty tired at the mo and unable to use big words as a result). I can remember the term "pimping" used to describe the first Usenet spam in 1994. Anyone who gets offended by the term has limited themselves to using and understanding the term in one specific meaning (incidentally until recently in Oz and NZ, a "pimp" was an informer. As always, I blame US television). dictionary.com gives only one reference for the word, the OED gives at least twenty. That's unfortunate but it doesn't affect the (accepted) way in which the word is being used.

Originally posted by Serbian Another matter, I just took a look at the Charter for the Ireland Offline Board, and there is no mention of Pimping etc.

There is now. As a quick measure I just ripped off your suggestion, making a few small changes (thanks!)



The "raising funds for boards" is obviously a red herring. At 100 euros a month, it's hardly a money spinner. Any company that decide to set one up will obviously be devoting a little more money in the form of a company rep who will have to read and respond to comments. I'd view it as a show of good faith, nothing more or less.

I'd make a simple interpretation of the "I was invited..." exchange. DeVore posted a comment. The riposte was that Bone Collector invited Karl on. As an aside, I for one am pretty grateful to BC for getting another ISP to contribute here (they're not gone you know - believe me, they're still reading). DeVore's reply can eb sumed up as "so what". Which is the reply I would have made myself had it been directed at me. You know, I invite people here all the time. If they misbehave, I'll still slam them back into the wall (er, virtually of course) - the fact that I invited them is pretty immaterial.

It's as simple as this:
Company posts on boards. That's grand.
Company posts again on boards. Admin gets a little annoyed at what he sees as the company using the freely available board for free advertising. Makes a comment re same. Is he entitled to make this comment? Er, yes. Ditto all the other admins.

If would be niave to think I would not use this platform to generate business by posting relevent news about the service.

General rule of thumb is to ask someone first. Other companies have. Those that have not have been burned for it. Being naif (or naive if you're a woman) has nothing to do with it. The difference between UTV postings and IrishWisp seems as simple as UTV's early willingness to engage directly with users on specific issues. That impressed everyone.

The policy on pimping (yes, I'm going to continue to use that word) has been in place for some time. The rules sticky has only just been updated to reflect this on this particular board (though there is an umbrella-type policy on thw whole of boards, if anything companies get away with more here than they do elsewhere). It's now there highlighted for any companies who do visit. There are clear lines of communication if any company wants to contact me (ordinary user), me (moderator), admins or any opther user on any matter. It's easy to ask and we're willing to give the time to answer.

Representatives of companies are very welcome here. If there's any doubt about where the line is though, well, read the last paragraph.

DeVore

Hornet I think you are probably bang on the money actually.

I have to say though that on the DeVore Scale of 1-10 my initial directness rated about 0.5

I'm sorry but I dont always have time to concern myself with the tender feelings of everyone I slap on Boards. Theres a certain requirement to learn the rules too...


Subsequent mails lead me to believe that Karl sees *nothing* wrong with what he posted. I dont know if Bone Collector filled him in on the senstitivities around here.


Now, I will (and do) apologise to being too rough with a new member. Dont think I say that lightly, anyone who knows me knows I'd be much more likely to say "fnck em"... if Karl can understand why I was annoyed about it and why it cant continue.
In fact he can avail of my offer of 3 months free of a commercial interaction board.

Thats as far as I'm willing to go.

DeV.

Hornet

DeV,

your big step in the right direction is appreciated. And I think there is a great chance to settle this issue in an acceptable way for all sides.

I would like to invite Ardmore and Karl to check for themselves if they can accept DeVore's peace offer and can match it with a similar big step from their side.

One observation regarding Karl's subsequent mails and BoneCollector's involvement:

It was my impression that BoneCollector had the best of the Board community and of the bandwidth starved users in mind, when he invited Karl. I would expect that he -understandably- didn't see a necessity to brief Karl about the details of the "rules of engagement" in this forum.

Karl's subsequent mails were written from a position of defense. In the Telco world he wouldn't have a chance of survival with IrishWISP if he would give up easily against the big competitors, so I think we can't blame him for defending himself. Now, after the whole discussion about the issue and with all the facts on the table, I would expect him to offer a similar sign of peace as DeVore has done.

-Hornet

DeVore

BoneCollector is one of those posters here who makes me stop scrolling and read. Theres no question but that he is a terrific asset to the community and IOFFL in particular.

Constructive moves forward:
a. Forget everything in the past.

b. Perhaps avail of the CI board offer for product announcements etc. It certainly seems like WISP have friends here they could benefit from the advice of.

c. Understand each others points of view and respect them.

d. Move on.

These are my final words on the matter. (yeah right )

DeV.

sceptre

Actually what DeVore said in the first line to his last post occurred to me also as I was driving back up to Limerick this evening. In case there's any doubt (and I'd be surprised if there was), if I had a list of posters I'd classify as great assets, Bone Collector would certainly be near the head of that list. I'm just saying that (I'm 100% sure Dustaz would agree so you can take it as an official word from the mods for whatever it's worth) in case there's any doubt in his mind as to whether we're annoyed with him on this. Getting any extra ISPs to be aware of the community we have here can never be discounted. That's all, just a clarification.

zynaps

I have to be honest about this and say the way I see it, I think a seperate commercial interaction board for each ISP or whatever that had something new to add here by way of products/services (which is what getting internet access is obviously fundamentally dependent on) would only make it more difficult to find out just what all the current providers are offering, where and for how much etc.

This being irelandoffline, I like being able to see current competitive offers being on the main page, instead of having to go to a specific board for each provider who has put the effort in to get a CI thing.
This may just be due to laziness, but I just think we would have a better flow of information about what we could actually get wrt internet connectivity without having to find each ISP's homepage/press release/board/etc or rely on hearsay which is possibly the strongest form of communication here.

So... I don't think it's such a good idea to discourage commercial contenders posting in this way so strongly, though I obviously don't want to have them spam us with offers etc etc...
*scratches head*

zynaps

[edit]argh[/edit]

Ardmore

I'm happy with the way things have worked out, and I don't want to stir things up again. I just want to highlight one aspect of Sceptre response.

Originally posted by sceptre
The difference between UTV postings and IrishWisp seems as simple as UTV's early willingness to engage directly with users on specific issues. That impressed everyone.

Karl made 8 or 9 posts to the IrishWisp thread before the post that caused this discussion. They were largely in response to questions asked about the service, and notifications of changes in the coverage (I went back and read them). Karl was engaging with users, and contributing.

I was impressed

Ardmore

Originally posted by Hornet
I would like to invite Ardmore and Karl to check for themselves if they can accept DeVore's peace offer and can match it with a similar big step from their side.

DeV and I finished up on Friday night on quite amicable terms. I have no quarrels with anyone on how this thread has turned out.

Synkronite

Wow, how was that for warfare..

We should all just sit back and relax for a while

I look forward to the day Eircom sends one of its representatives to post here..