Irishwisp Issues [Split from main thread]

DeVore

Originally posted by martinikarl
Irish WISP has updated it's web site. New content is available to better describe the service.

Of interest to board members is the press release outlining our response to Eircom's proposed price drop.

Also...have a look at our special offer which enables customers to pay only €42.66 per month.

www.irishwisp.net

I think you are now taking advantage of our platform.

I think you should buy a commercial interaction forum as Komplett and Elara have.


DeV.

martinikarl

If would be niave to think I would not use this platform to generate business by posting relevent news about the service. It's just a question of whether my posts are welcome or not. The moderators will decide this.

I must mention that I was invited to post on this board by Christopher (Bone Collector) Mulready in January.

Regards,

Karl Martini

Dustaz

Karl, i think you should re-read the tagline of the poster you just responded to DeVore is one of the owner and operators of Boards.ie and he kindly provides hosting for Ireland Offlines forum for free. He has the final word on what is and isnt allowed on this board.


The reason that I (and i think sceptre feels the same) have let this thread go is that 1. Its confined to just this thread 2. People actually want to know about the company, its not unsolicited and 3. Like utv, someone from the relevant company posts information that is not just advertising - ie engages in some sort of dialogue.

Re-reading that post, maybe it does seem a little Crazy Joes Sale style though, try not to pimp too much karl.

DeVore

Trust me on the DeVore Scale Of Slaps... this was/is a gentle chide.

I really dont care if someone I've never heard of invited you to my site. Commercial posts are to be confined to Commercial Boards.
IOFFL is about the move towards competition in the telco industry. You are part of that, for that much you are welcome here.

That said, this site wouldnt be here to give you, us and them this platform if we naively let everyone come here and tout for business.

The rules are clear. You want to do business here, you pay a small fee for the privilege. Its respectful and its a bit like when pagan druids harvest apples , they always throw a few ones back to maintain the sustainability of the system.

Have a look at the Komplett board under Community -> Commercial Interaction -> Komplett
to see how it should be done properly.


That costs them 100 Euro a month... hardly bank breaking now is it?

I'm not forcing the issue because you *are* providing information people want to know. However wouldnt it be great if you had your own Board and could start as many threads as you liked? Komplett have just signed up for another year... they did win supplier of the year off our voting


As I said (and have said before, to others) I just dont like to see people take and not at least give something back to a community.

Just accept that I'm weird like that


So I'm asking you what you are prepared to do to support the site which is giving you this channel to market.

Its a fair business question if you want to think in those terms.

DeV.

DeVore

One more thing.

We bring 20 new users in a day, thats 600 new users a month.
Thats 13 cent per new user.

Add to that the 6-7000 active ones here already. Then show me how you can reach that many technically savvy users without p|ssing them off!


I suppose you could try network broadcast popups...


DeV in Glengarry Glenross mode!

Xian

Originally posted by Dustaz
The reason that I (and i think sceptre feels the same) have let this thread go is that 1. Its confined to just this thread 2. People actually want to know about the company, its not unsolicited and 3. Like utv, someone from the relevant company posts information that is not just advertising - ie engages in some sort of dialogue.

If this continues, maybe you should split this to another thread, eh Dustaz?

Karl has broken an unwritten rule, that much is agreed. It's probably time that these rules were written, i.e. included in the rules of the forum, as commercial interaction of a certain kind is welcome on the IO board to an extent that is not (and should not be) allowed in other areas of boards, trying as we are to encourage local initiatives and alternative service providers.

Your three points are the place to start, namely:

• keep it to a specific thread
• relevance to the membership of IO
• no spam/vapourware

IMHO DeV's outburst would have been better justified if it was directed towards UTV, who have national coverage for their service and have benefitted hugely from their participation on the forum, as opposed to a service provider with a small catchment area, a minority of which are users of boards.

DeVore

I didnt read any outburst. I made a two sentence post saying that I felt they were taking advantage.

Now I've been sent a mail (quite a curt one actually) saying that they wont be coming here again as they dont feel welcome.


Thats balls imho.


Btw, I've said the same to UTV during their mammoth thread. IBB shot themselves in the foot and Beam ... well...


Its all fine for us to pay for this out of our pockets to support them and give them a means to communicate what are *by their own admission* sales posts, but ask them to contribute? Gone like the shadows at noon.


And before anyone thinks its about the money... I dont actually give a **** about the money. It pisses me off to see Boards and IOFFL's efforts used, abused and then not supported.

Maybe I'm wrong but its a ****in principle.

(Am I getting this wrong? I dunno... telcos , even new ones get my fnckin back up... 100 a month is only a gesture).

DeV.

Serbian

Hey,

I think DeVore is right. The Pimping line was crossed by IrishWisp and to make matters worse, at the first mention of giving something back to the community, they pack their bags. I think Selfish would be a good word to describe them.

Another matter, I just took a look at the Charter for the Ireland Offline Board, and there is no mention of Pimping etc. I think there should be something added along the lines of:

Companies are welcome to the Ireland Offline Board as long as they intend to answer valid and legitimate questions that members of this community have asked. Any attempt to 'market' or 'promote' your products will not be tolerated. If you intend to do this, we recommend you purchase a Commercial Interaction board. (Find examples of this Community -> Commercial Interaction)

Also, maybe the thread should be closed as it's not really on Topic any more...

Serb

spongebob

even NTL saw the light and coughed up.

The paid for banners despite the dogs abuse they were deservedly getting at the time for their crap customer service.

sulking will do you no good Karl. UTV, by way of example, take the bad with the good when it happens to them......although I personally agree that they should be up there with Komplett in the interaction boards.

Look at the positive side, you have not been accused of

Crap Service
Vapourware Sales
Making Unrealistic Promises
Denying them Afterwards

Many of your competitors have.....and with justification.

Given that your reputation is largely intect I suggest that you come out of your sulk and I will then delete my posts anyway.

Ciao

MDR

People I want to move towards some reconciliation in this matter. In this thread tempers and nerves have been frayed, I am not trying to impose myself as a quasi-mod, however I am anxious for us to resolve this issue and get us back onto an even keel.

I think Karl and other now recognise that boards.ie will fiercily defend its right not to be plagued with newsgroup-esque spam/pimping.

In future, details of new services etc will be provided in an impartial way throught the committee, we still hope that providers will come here and engage with their customers. Afterall this has been very much a large part of the melting pot of what IOFFL is about, and the committtee feels its very important.

Tom (Dev) quite rightily feels that telco's if they wish boards.ie to be a formun for customer interaction, should purchase a customer interaction forum. Now IrishWISP being a new startup without major backing (that I am aware of) doesn't necessarily have the available cash for this (yes I know its isn't alot of cash, but hey we don't know what their bottom line is).

So here is the quandary boards.ie doesn't support pimpin etc, and IOFFL likes the melting pot (IOFFL also likes boards). So in an effort to resolve the whole damn thing, the posting rules will be updated to deal with this type of pimping, telcos can continue to interact in a limited way (heavily moderated) and any announcements about _all_ new services etc will be made in an impartial way by the committee or an impartial member (adam or muck for instance).

Members of the committee are working on an update to the posting rules. Can we achieve consensus in this matter, how does everyone feel about it?

DeVore

MDR , I'll go with that. Sounds reasonable.

I highly doubt that anyone can create a wireless telco and not have 100 quid a month for marketing. I mean, thats 2 customers a month which, if you cant sell to the Boards Hoards I think you wont sell many at all!

I do aggressively defend Boards to stop exactly what you point out. Usenet spammage. I loved Usenet and it was the inspiration for Boards but its fncked now and I'm damned if Boards will go the same way. Do tell me if I get over protective though.

Perhaps its time we *all* told *all* telcos that if they want to interact with us, it has to be on our terms and supporting the platform that allows it.... people power or something




DeV.

Ardmore

Karl has broken an unwritten rule, that much is agreed.

As I've seen the moderators slap people down for calling other people stupid, I'm disappointed to see that a double standard seems to apply to certain people who have not been warned for using the far more offensive term "pimp".

DeVores post came 5 days after Karl posted about the IrishWisp special offer. It's almost embarrassing to see people fall over themselves trying to prove themselves more righteous than DeV, about a post that didn't even warrant a comment for the better part of a week.

I'm afraid I'm with Karl on this (not that it matters what I think). He's owed an apology, if only for the language used.

Serbian

Originally posted by Ardmore
As I've seen the moderators slap people down for calling other people stupid, I'm disappointed to see that a double standard seems to apply to certain people who have not been warned for using the far more offensive term "pimp".

Ardmore,

I don't think any offense was intended towards IrishWisp / Karl on this matter. Pimp is simply the term that has become the standard for describing certain behaviour. However, calling someone stupid is intentionally offending someone.

Fine, people may not have reacted for 5 days to his post, but I think this just emphasizes the ambiguity that exists in relation to pimping etc.

As for owing Karl an apology? I don't really see that happening, but maybe that's just me

Serb

MDR

Originally posted by Ardmore
It's almost embarrassing to see people fall over themselves trying to prove themselves more righteous than DeV, about a post that didn't even warrant a comment for the better part of a week.

This is about the only thing I took offense to in this thread ...

DeVore

Sorry, could you point out where I used the term "pimp"?



I posted a two line post to say "I think you are abusing our hospitality. I think you should buy a Commercial Interaction board" and got a pretty curt answer.

Now I was being polite and I can be a LOT less polite if you want me to be. I also got a fairly curt email which effectively threw the toys out of the pram.

I'm with MDR here, IrishWisp may well be an excellent provider but I felt that his post was taking advantage of our platform without supporting us at all and I dislike that feeling and I posted my feelings on my site. I think I have that right.

Now, if Karl wants to disappear because the mean people on the internet are saying mean things about him then he's going to have an unhappy life as the head of a telco!

Can you point out what you feel I should apologise for?

DeV.

Dustaz

Apologies for not posting sooner, its been a mental day in work.

It was me that used the term pimp, sorry if it caused offense to anyone, im just used to using it on these boards.

Having said that, im suprised by Karls reaction to this. This thread has not only generated a lot of interest in the service, but reading back has helped them guage demand and supply issues. If he wants to throw his toys out of the pram and leave, thats fine by me. Irishwisp are getting a hell of a lot out of the visibility on this board and are not giving a lot in return. If they arent happy with the arrangement thats fine.

UTV didnt seem to have this problem and IBB continue to monitor and contribute after being made aware of 'the rules'.

As i said before, I havent seen too much of a problem up to this point as karls participation was solicited by members and people found it useful.

As has been mentioned this sort of thing will be addressed in the charter so as to avoid any more grey areas.

all feedback is welcome.

DeVore

FWIW (and its neither here nor there to me) Karl used the term "Pimp" to refer to himself and to me in his email to me.


I've raised the point, its been clearly communicated what happens from here is in other peoples courts.
I contend, and always have contended that we should have respect for ourselves here and protect what we have built.


|| More General Comment Follows... on topic but not directed particularly at Irish Wisp ||

For me it IS a matter of respect. Its a matter of making commercial companies (like NTL, IBB etc) heel to OUR will. The days of the individual customer having little power to affect a company are over.... sufficent voices in a neutral, public area have a tremendous power to effect change ... we've seen that often here.

Forgive me if I protect that strongly but for a change I think commercial entities should do as *we*, the customer, state and rather then spamming us, they should go in their respective boxs and we will visit them when *WE* want something from *them*.

Welcome to the communications era. The revolution will be webcast.

DeV.

Ardmore

Originally posted by DeVore Sorry, could you point out where I used the term "pimp"?

My post wasn't directed at you (though I find your approach to drumming up revenue for boards.ie to be somewhat unusual). The word has been used (extensively) to describe a post that was okay by the moderators (by their own admission) until you complained about it 5 days after it was posted.

I posted a two line post to say "I think you are abusing our hospitality. I think you should buy a Commercial Interaction board" and got a pretty curt answer.

Now I was being polite and I can be a LOT less polite if you want me to be. I also got a fairly curt email which effectively threw the toys out of the pram.

According to your own posts, the curt e-mail came after your 3rd contribution to the thread, and after other people had already jumped on the bandwagon. It was Xian that described your post as an "outburst", not me, and not Karl.

I posted my feelings on my site. I think I have that right.

And you complain about other people "throwing the toys out of the pram"?

Now, if Karl wants to disappear because the mean people on the internet are saying mean things about him then he's going to have an unhappy life as the head of a telco!

I don't know Karl, and I don't use his service, but I'm sure he has better things to do with his time that playing "it's my football, and I'll take it home with me if I want to" school yard games.

Can you point out what you feel I should apologise for?

Would it make any difference?

I said that I think Karl is owed an apology for the use of the word "pimp". You haven't used that term.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Dustaz
Having said that, im suprised by Karls reaction to this.

I'm not. Despite his protestations, DeVore, in his 2nd post, was unequivocal that commercial posts were unwelcome here, and that he, not the moderators, would decide what was a commercial post.

Karl was told to leave. He left.

DeVore

Originally posted by Ardmore
I'm not. Despite his protestations, DeVore, in his 2nd post, was unequivocal that commercial posts were unwelcome here, and that he, not the moderators, would decide what was a commercial post.

Karl was told to leave. He left.

Ardmore, sorry but thats just rubbish. Please point out where I told him to leave?

He was told that he (like everyone else) is not allowed to use these forums for commercial selling, which is exactly what he was doing by his own admission. If he was told anything, he was told to stop doing that. If *he* chooses to walk off in a huff... hey, fine....

I'm not trying to drum up business for boards... but I dont see why we should support others commercial wellbeing out of our pocket and I dont see why IOFFL's hard work should become a platform for sales broadcasts.

You carefully neglect the use of the world "think" in my first post.
I could have banned him, deleted his post, amended his post or a number of other things.

Instead I posted saying what I think, my opinion, and got a slap in the gob for my trouble. Believe me if I want to tell him to leave, I'd be a LOT more direct.


We'll here's something else I think... I think if you arent prepared to support the community you sell to, then the community is better off without you.

It's not about cash, I dont need his cash, its not about profit... god knows we dont know the meaning of the word, its about simple politeness and respect.

DeV.

DeVore

Originally posted by Ardmore
My post wasn't directed at you (though I find your approach to drumming up revenue for boards.ie to be somewhat unusual).

I'm not drumming up revenue for Boards. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT MONEY FFS.

Are you saying you'd be happy with every telco posting their latest offering (and some of their vapourware offerings) here?

I wouldnt and I'm not letting the thin end of the wedge creep in. Plus it really gets up my hooter.

Its called principle.

It was Xian that described your post as an "outburst", not me, and not Karl.
And you complain about other people "throwing the toys out of the pram"?

As you say yourself, that part of my post wasnt directed at you or indeed Karl.

I cant see where I have acted immaturely or "thrown the toys out of the pram" can you point that out to me?

I don't know Karl, and I don't use his service, but I'm sure he has
better things to do with his time that playing "it's my football, and I'll take it home with me if I want to" school yard games.

Which seems to be exactly what has been said by exactly one person on this board. I'll let anyone play with my ball... but there are rules to the game...

quote:

---

Can you point out what you feel I should apologise for?

---

Would it make any difference?

What a cop out answer. Yes. if you point out something you feel I should reasonably apologise for, then I will.

I havent any reason to apologise in my mind but feel free to contradict me and if you are right I will.

I said that I think Karl is owed an apology for the use of the word "pimp". You haven't used that term.

Karl used that word twice in a mail to me though... once using it to describe my actions.... do you equally believe Karl should apologise to me now?

DeV.

Ardmore

Originally posted by DeVore
I'm not drumming up revenue for Boards. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT MONEY FFS.[/B]

You were the one who brought money into it "100 Euro a month... hardly bank breaking now is it?"

Are you saying you'd be happy with every telco posting their latest offering (and some of their vapourware offerings) here?

That's a straw man, if ever I saw one. The message was 5 days old when you posted, and the moderators had already decided that it was within the limits (though there may have been a change of heart since then).

I cant see where I have acted immaturely or "thrown the toys out of the pram" can you point that out to me?

That's how "I really dont care if someone I've never heard of invited you to my site" read to me. If you don't feel that way, we'll just have to agree to differ.

{I said "Would it make any difference}
What a cop out answer. Yes. if you point out something you feel I should reasonably apologise for, then I will.
I think your emphasis on this being yourboard was un-called for. I don't expect you to agree. I found your statement that paying for commercial interaction is respectful (with the implication that Karls behaviour was disrespectful) to be disrectful of Karl. I don't expect you to agree. It seems to me that your posts were far more "commercial" than Karls. I don't expect you to agree. (Whether your posts were more or less appropriate than Karls is a seperate issue).

{about the word "pimp"}
Karl used that word twice in a mail to me though... once using it to describe my actions.... do you equally believe Karl should apologise to me now?
If you have an issue with a private e-mail, bring it up with the sender. That's not a cop-out. I don't know how the word was used, or what the context was. If Karl followed Dustaz's lead in using the word to describe your posts, it would be unfortunate, but it's between the two of you whether it merits an apology.

Ardmore

Originally posted by DeVore
Ardmore, sorry but thats just rubbish. Please point out where I told him to leave?

I really dont care if someone I've never heard of invited you to my site. Commercial posts are to be confined to Commercial Boards. sounds fairly straightforward to me.

He was told that he (like everyone else) is not allowed to use these forums for commercial selling, which is exactly what he was doing by his own admission.

Not quite, he said it would be naive to think that he wouldn't use the platform to generate business by posting relevent news about the service. That's an important distinction that you seem to want to ignore. There was nothing excessive in the post that you complained about that, nothing that mightn't have been posted by any ordinary user of boards (except that someone else would probably have started a new thread, generating even more notice). Here's what Dustaz said about it:
The reason that I (and i think sceptre feels the same) have let this thread go is that 1. Its confined to just this thread 2. People actually want to know about the company, its not unsolicited and 3. Like utv, someone from the relevant company posts information that is not just advertising - ie engages in some sort of dialogue.

its about simple politeness and respect.

You were polite. You weren't respectful, IMO. (You weren't the only one, but that's another issue).

It's clear that this horse is well flogged, and it's unlikely that anyone will change their mind on the issue. But I don't intend any disrepect if I just leave it at that - it's Friday night, and I hope to be too busy to spend time on this issue for the next few days :-).

DeVore

Originally posted by Ardmore
You were the one who brought money into it "100 Euro a month... hardly bank breaking now is it?"

I was making the point that there were already accepted and understood ways for such posts to be made.

But if money is problem here, I'll tell you what. I'll give IrishWISP a commercial interaction board for free? How about that?

That's a straw man, if ever I saw one. The message was 5 days old when you posted, and the moderators had already decided that it was within the limits (though there may have been a change of heart since then).

I had only just read it, Boards, like space, is VERY big.
I also only posted my opinion. I do get to have them you know... I do get to express them too you know...

That's how "I really dont care if someone I've never heard of invited you to my site" read to me. If you don't feel that way, we'll just have to agree to differ.

Actually Karl primly pointed out that he had been invited here by a joesoap user (sorry Bone Collector, no disrespect intended but an invite isnt carte blanche).

Even Dustaz commented that it seemed like Karl hadnt an iota who I was and why perhaps he shouldnt be so dismissive of my opinion of whats acceptable here and whats not.

I'd STILL like to point out that I didnt censor him, delete/amend his post or ban him or anything. I simply pointed out that I felt he was *now* beginning to abuse our hospitality

Its like someone repeatedly arriving at your party, drinking all your booze and when finally being asked if they brought any themselves saying "well I was invited by <random bloke> and I dont like your tone so I'm going to depart now!"

{I said "Would it make any difference}
What a cop out answer. Yes. if you point out something you feel I should reasonably apologise for, then I will.
I think your emphasis on this being yourboard was un-called for. I don't expect you to agree.

Good, because I dont.

I was emphasising that I part own Boards.ie in response to his defence that he had been invited here.

If was given to wandering around proclaiming Boards as "mine" as you make out I did, YOU'D THINK HE'D ALREADY KNOW WOULDNT YOU!!

I rarely interfere with IOFFL but I'm not going to shut up or bottle my opinion up for anyone , thanks all the same.

I found your statement that paying for commercial interaction is respectful (with the implication that Karls behaviour was disrespectful) to be disrectful of Karl.

Would you find someone who sat in the pub all night with you and your mates availing of your hospitality but never bought a round, disrepectful? You would say "hey, its your round, man!"?

I don't expect you to agree.

Good, because I still dont.

It seems to me that your posts were far more "commercial" than Karls. I don't expect you to agree.

And again. We're not really seeing common ground here are we?

If I'm soooo hell bent on money, WTF would I be running this site?

{about the word "pimp"}
Karl used that word twice in a mail to me though... once using it to describe my actions.... do you equally believe Karl should apologise to me now?
If you have an issue with a private e-mail, bring it up with the sender. That's not a cop-out. I don't know how the word was used, or what the context was. If Karl followed Dustaz's lead in using the word to describe your posts, it would be unfortunate, but it's between the two of you whether it merits an apology.

It was used in exactly the same way. It didnt offend me as I understood the context in which is was being used and it is slang for "hard sales of something you own".

I love you're ability to cop out when the tables are turned and I still am waiting for you to point out what exactly you think I should apologise for.

Ardmore, I dont agree with you but I'll say this, at least you state your points civilly and stand by them. I will argue with you until we reach agreement or acceptance.
I'll fight for your right to argue with me though!

DeV.

ps: Mods, I relinquish all call on Admin rights for this post. Move it, edit it, bin it, keep it as you see fit.
Apologies for this discussion but I also need to know how the community here feels about I'd like to be sure that my views are not in conflict with the people here.

DeVore

Originally posted by Ardmore
I really dont care if someone I've never heard of invited you to my site. Commercial posts are to be confined to Commercial Boards. sounds fairly straightforward to me.

Sounds fairly straightforward to me too.
Translation:
1. It doesnt matter how/why you came here, everyone plays byt he same rules. (btw those rules are VERY VERY CLEARLY laid out in the mail which every user is sent with links to examples of what tends to happen when they are not followed.)

2. There is a proper place for commecial posts. They are called commercial boards.


Now could you please point out to me where I said "Karl, leave my site at once. You arent welcome here."


Trust me, noone ever had to read between the lines of what I was trying to say. If I wanted someone off this site, believe me, they'd be under NO two minded about it.

There was nothing excessive in the post that you complained about that, nothing that mightn't have been posted by any ordinary user of boards

Here, to remind ourselves, is what was written:

Irish WISP has updated it's web site. New content is available to better describe the service.

Of interest to board members is the press release outlining our response to Eircom's proposed price drop.

Also...have a look at our special offer which enables customers to pay only €42.66 per month.

link: www.irishwisp.net

Now, with the possible exception of the single sentence in the middle, the rest is a blatant ad which if it had been posted in a thread of its own would have lead to a considerably more pointed reaction from me and I suspect the Mods too.

IOFFL is NOT imho a launch pad for every new tweak to a website or a place to encourage customers to buy their ISP service.

I fail to see how this is "nothing that mightn't have been posted by any ordinary user of boards".

It's clear that this horse is well flogged, and it's unlikely that anyone will change their mind on the issue. But I don't intend any disrepect if I just leave it at that - it's Friday night, and I hope to be too busy to spend time on this issue for the next few days :-).

No disrespect taken.... We'll down foils and take a breather for the sake of romance... but I dont capitulate!!

DeV.

spongebob

Ardmore

In one his many posts in the past few days Dev has alluded to the days when Usenet was useful, like as in when soc.culture.celtic held an RFC to set up soc.culture.irish

looking at the sorry mess that is the modern s.c.i , I am an ardent fan of the Boards system. I dont always agree with individual decisions but on the whole it works because it is what it is.

It is not run for profit but for the sake of allowing and fostering structured free speech, you have availed of this facility freely since you signed up last month. Nor did you ever pimp.....

The phrase to pimp or pimping or pimped has long been used in here to describe inappropriate commercial activities.

Many organisations have realised this in the past and have either moderated their behaviour...and/or contributed resources to boards and therefore have become valued members of the community with well earned goodwill in here.

I hope that Irishwisp have the wit to do what many of their direct competitors have done in the past. In order for it to have any lasting effect, they should do so before the weekend is out.

I also believe that you will come around to the same view given time.

M

zynaps

Originally posted by DeVore
IOFFL is NOT imho a launch pad for every new tweak to a website or a place to encourage customers to buy their ISP service.

I fail to see how this is "nothing that mightn't have been posted by any ordinary user of boards".

To be honest, I think a lot of posts made on ioffl are people getting their hopes up about rumours and posting about possible price drops and so forth, so much so that with (for example) 10 normal users getting hopeful and posting the same little piece of info they heard somewhere really makes Irishwisp's own contribution of it miniscule in comparison.

The difference is of course that in Irishwisp's case it is sales info about their own offerings, and not what userxxx heard from a friend while playing pool about esat maybe offering cheaper dsl etc.
So while I believe ioffl is a relevant place for them to bring undiluted information about new net access things, I think dev is entirely within his rights to want them to pay a bit back for the service they've received in having access to this many people in dire need of cheaper, faster net access.

How many of IBB's customers do you think have been boards posters/lurkers? Quite a lot, I'd say...
For a new company with a new offering, Irishwisp really have a huge advantage in being able to post here.

[/waffle]

zynaps

ballooba

I'll consider paying half of Karl's commercial board fee, if and only if he gives me free wireless internet in return. Makes sense.

Ardmore

Originally posted by Muck
In one his many posts in the past few days Dev has alluded to the days when Usenet was useful, like as in when soc.culture.celtic held an RFC to set up soc.culture.irish

I was one of the handful of people who voted _against_ that split. (yes, almost 8 years ago).

It's interesting to not that boards.ie is currently a topic for discussion in ie.comp.

Ardmore

Originally posted by zynaps
How many of IBB's customers do you think have been boards posters/lurkers? Quite a lot, I'd say...
For a new company with a new offering, Irishwisp really have a huge advantage in being able to post here.

If nobody was allowed talk about IrishWisp unless they paid up, you might have a point. I don't honestly think that Karls 10 posts made that big a difference to their visibilty here (credibility, maybe).

DeVore

Ardmore, we both need to go home

Ballooba: Right then, on the spur of your comment I've posted this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83598

3 months free trial to any ISP that asks and agrees not to sue us for the content of the feedback they get.


I'm betting none of them take it up by the way but I'm hoping I'm wrong.

DeV.

Ardmore

Originally posted by DeVore
Here, to remind ourselves, is what was written:
Irish WISP has updated it's web site. New content is available to better describe the service.

Of interest to board members is the press release outlining our response to Eircom's proposed price drop.

Also...have a look at our special offer which enables customers to pay only €42.66 per month.

link: www.irishwisp.net
I fail to see how this is "nothing that mightn't have been posted by any ordinary user of boards".

Friday night, and I'm still here :-(
DeVore, if I happened to have visited the IrishWISP website that afternoon, I might have posted almost exactly that message. "IrishWISP have updated their website. They've got a press release responding to Eircoms price drop, and they have a €42.66!!!!! a month deal!!!!!".

Would you have objected?

That's why I think your characterization of the post was wrong. It was genuinely new information, it was not in any way pushy (heck, he didn't even use an exclamation point!!!! :-) and it wasn't exactly Karls fault that it happened to end up at the top of a page, where it had a slightly higher profile than it might otherwise have had.

It wasn't the equivalent of "someone who sat in the pub all night with you and your mates availing of your hospitality but never bought a round". Not by a long shot.

DeVore

No but then I DIDNT slam him, ban him... lead a load of people over to his website to mess with it, subscribe him to the Church of Scientology, ring his boss, got everyone I could on Boards to mail him or any of the numerous other unpleasantries I've done to blatant advertisers who have come to boards before.
Its true.... I dont deny it or regret it!

"Boards Bites Back" and we take an active role in our own defense.

We even link to them in the sign up mail as a warning to others who would try the same thing.

But all I did was comment that I felt he was abusing our hospitality. I DO get to have opinions still ... right?

So, as I said he got a light chiding and a reminder that we're a community with a certain amount of principle and attitude!
Jesus, I mean, if Philip Nolan reacted like that he'd be a mental wreck by now!

I mean, compared to CDMediaIreland there recently, this wasnt even a slap on the wrist.


Now, you can say I'm a rude person. Many would agree with you. You can even think me an assh*le for taking this tack with advertisers but at least I'm consistent.
And it works... look at the spamtastic usenet or even your email... and compare it to the light and frothy commerical-spam-freeness of Boards... Theres a good reason for that. Its called: Me.
(Its why I have a metal guard dog from Wallace and Gromit as an avatar and the tagline "Bastard Operator From Hell"....)

And if someone else had posted that, it would have been fine. You know why... because they dont work for IW. Yes, that makes a difference.

(I have a SPECIAL treatment reserved for anyone I *ever* catch promoting a company on the sly here... and God help them because noone else will! )



DeV.

Dustaz

Originally posted by Ardmore

That's a straw man, if ever I saw one. The message was 5 days old when you posted, and the moderators had already decided that it was within the limits (though there may have been a change of heart since then).

Nope, i still feel the same about the post as i do now. The only part of it which i feel is objectionable is the last part, but ive outlined the reasons that it stayed above.

I don't honestly think that Karls 10 posts made that big a difference to their visibilty here (credibility, maybe).

It would be my opinion that your dead wrong about that. There was an enourmous reaction to both UTV and IBB as a direct result of postings on this board. Its naive to think that the only people who are made aware of products mentioned here are the people who post regularly. Make no mistake about it, Irishwisp are getting free advertising by the plenty by the thread here and personally i have no problem with that. The problem occurs when pimping takes place and i think Karl skirted close to the line, but I accept that that is not taken care of in the charter, something which will be rectified.

DeVore, if I happened to have visited the IrishWISP website that afternoon, I might have posted almost exactly that message. "IrishWISP have updated their website. They've got a press release responding to Eircoms price drop, and they have a €42.66!!!!! a month deal!!!!!".

If you had posted exactly that, I would have locked the thread. Search for previous examples regarding a dsl reseller for precedent on that.

Hornet

Looks like a heated discussion here!

Am a a Newbie, so feel free to shoot me down, flame me or ignore me. I have no affiliation with any of the people discussing here or being discussed. But I have an opinion about this discussion and a suggestion.

When Karl Martini came on here and described the Irish WISP service, I was wondering how his competitors would feel about it. I had the feeling he saw a great opportunity of genuinely informing people about his services, but he was well aware of the commercial effect his postings could have.

Was he advertising? Yes!
Was the advertisement an "in-your-face" ad? No, not in my opinion.
Was he providing genuine information, which wouldn't have been available otherwise? Yes!
Did his posting contribute in a positive way to the IOFFL board? Yes!
Did he realise that advertisment is not acceptable on this board? I think he genuinely didn't think of it or was aware of it.

So, my conclusion is that Karl unknowingly pushed the limits but he had no right to do so.

Next set of questions and answers:
Was DeVore in his right to tell Karl off? No question, yes! For two reasons:Because he is the boss AND because Karl broke the rules to some extent.
Was DeVore's reaction approriate and reasonable? With all due respect, I think it was not!
Was it crude commercial interests that drove DeVore? I don't think so.
Did Karl realise who or what DeVore is? No!
Was Karl's reaction to DeVore's posting out of line? I don't think so, if you consider that he probably honestly wasn't aware of the rules OR of DeVore's position.

So, if DeVore would have said:
"Karl, I would like to inform you that commercial postings on boards.ie are only accepted and allowed on Commercial boards. This has been pointed out to you in the Rules that you accepted when signing up. As I am the owner of boards.ie, I have to ask you to refrain from commercial postings in non-commercial boards. We are happy to provide you with a commercial board for the price of xyz in which you have full commercial freedom to advertise for your services."

If that would have been DeVore's posting, nobody would have had a right to get upset and this issue wouldn't have come to the boil.

Does that mean Ardmore is wrong? NO! To me the commercial postings Karl posted are commercial because they came from Karl. If Ardmore would have posted the same information, it would not have been commercial. Sounds inconsequent? I don't think so. The reason is that Ardmore would not have had a personal commercial interest, but Karl did.

(One other thing: The fact that Karl made it clear and public that he was a promoter of IrishWISP speaks for him! It was not the hidden advertisement of a first-time-poster, but he didn't hide the fact that he had a vested interest.)

Bottom line: While DeVore was right and in his right to tell Karl off, his directness and non-diplomatic way didn't help calming the issue.

Where does it leave us?

Ideally DeVore, Ardmore and all others will settle the issue very soon, accepting that both sides are right and that their view points do not contradict, but are valid. In addition - and that is the bigger challenge - it would be helpful if DeVore could make a step towards Karl, explaining his reasons for the "telling off" and MAYBE just maybe going as far as to apologise for the forceful tone he used.

(If a mediator would help for the first few steps, I am happy to help.)

So, now I am waiting for the flame war to break out over me!!

-Hornet

sceptre

Bloomin heck, I disppear for 24 hours to do one exam and look what I come home to:)

OK, here's my take on the whole thing:

Firstly the word "pimp":
It's been in use as a verb since at least 1636 and doesn't always mean anything to do with prostitution. In US slang, it's been in use since the 1940s as a term for someone who tries to get somethign out of someone else or pander to them (which, incidentally, was also the original meaning). It's been adopted in latter years by some of the internet community to mean someone who's pushing sales in a big way, even after an invitation to make representations (badly explained but I'm pretty tired at the mo and unable to use big words as a result). I can remember the term "pimping" used to describe the first Usenet spam in 1994. Anyone who gets offended by the term has limited themselves to using and understanding the term in one specific meaning (incidentally until recently in Oz and NZ, a "pimp" was an informer. As always, I blame US television). dictionary.com gives only one reference for the word, the OED gives at least twenty. That's unfortunate but it doesn't affect the (accepted) way in which the word is being used.

Originally posted by Serbian Another matter, I just took a look at the Charter for the Ireland Offline Board, and there is no mention of Pimping etc.

There is now. As a quick measure I just ripped off your suggestion, making a few small changes (thanks!)



The "raising funds for boards" is obviously a red herring. At 100 euros a month, it's hardly a money spinner. Any company that decide to set one up will obviously be devoting a little more money in the form of a company rep who will have to read and respond to comments. I'd view it as a show of good faith, nothing more or less.

I'd make a simple interpretation of the "I was invited..." exchange. DeVore posted a comment. The riposte was that Bone Collector invited Karl on. As an aside, I for one am pretty grateful to BC for getting another ISP to contribute here (they're not gone you know - believe me, they're still reading). DeVore's reply can eb sumed up as "so what". Which is the reply I would have made myself had it been directed at me. You know, I invite people here all the time. If they misbehave, I'll still slam them back into the wall (er, virtually of course) - the fact that I invited them is pretty immaterial.

It's as simple as this:
Company posts on boards. That's grand.
Company posts again on boards. Admin gets a little annoyed at what he sees as the company using the freely available board for free advertising. Makes a comment re same. Is he entitled to make this comment? Er, yes. Ditto all the other admins.

If would be niave to think I would not use this platform to generate business by posting relevent news about the service.

General rule of thumb is to ask someone first. Other companies have. Those that have not have been burned for it. Being naif (or naive if you're a woman) has nothing to do with it. The difference between UTV postings and IrishWisp seems as simple as UTV's early willingness to engage directly with users on specific issues. That impressed everyone.

The policy on pimping (yes, I'm going to continue to use that word) has been in place for some time. The rules sticky has only just been updated to reflect this on this particular board (though there is an umbrella-type policy on thw whole of boards, if anything companies get away with more here than they do elsewhere). It's now there highlighted for any companies who do visit. There are clear lines of communication if any company wants to contact me (ordinary user), me (moderator), admins or any opther user on any matter. It's easy to ask and we're willing to give the time to answer.

Representatives of companies are very welcome here. If there's any doubt about where the line is though, well, read the last paragraph.

DeVore

Hornet I think you are probably bang on the money actually.

I have to say though that on the DeVore Scale of 1-10 my initial directness rated about 0.5

I'm sorry but I dont always have time to concern myself with the tender feelings of everyone I slap on Boards. Theres a certain requirement to learn the rules too...


Subsequent mails lead me to believe that Karl sees *nothing* wrong with what he posted. I dont know if Bone Collector filled him in on the senstitivities around here.


Now, I will (and do) apologise to being too rough with a new member. Dont think I say that lightly, anyone who knows me knows I'd be much more likely to say "fnck em"... if Karl can understand why I was annoyed about it and why it cant continue.
In fact he can avail of my offer of 3 months free of a commercial interaction board.

Thats as far as I'm willing to go.

DeV.

Hornet

DeV,

your big step in the right direction is appreciated. And I think there is a great chance to settle this issue in an acceptable way for all sides.

I would like to invite Ardmore and Karl to check for themselves if they can accept DeVore's peace offer and can match it with a similar big step from their side.

One observation regarding Karl's subsequent mails and BoneCollector's involvement:

It was my impression that BoneCollector had the best of the Board community and of the bandwidth starved users in mind, when he invited Karl. I would expect that he -understandably- didn't see a necessity to brief Karl about the details of the "rules of engagement" in this forum.

Karl's subsequent mails were written from a position of defense. In the Telco world he wouldn't have a chance of survival with IrishWISP if he would give up easily against the big competitors, so I think we can't blame him for defending himself. Now, after the whole discussion about the issue and with all the facts on the table, I would expect him to offer a similar sign of peace as DeVore has done.

-Hornet

DeVore

BoneCollector is one of those posters here who makes me stop scrolling and read. Theres no question but that he is a terrific asset to the community and IOFFL in particular.

Constructive moves forward:
a. Forget everything in the past.

b. Perhaps avail of the CI board offer for product announcements etc. It certainly seems like WISP have friends here they could benefit from the advice of.

c. Understand each others points of view and respect them.

d. Move on.

These are my final words on the matter. (yeah right )

DeV.

sceptre

Actually what DeVore said in the first line to his last post occurred to me also as I was driving back up to Limerick this evening. In case there's any doubt (and I'd be surprised if there was), if I had a list of posters I'd classify as great assets, Bone Collector would certainly be near the head of that list. I'm just saying that (I'm 100% sure Dustaz would agree so you can take it as an official word from the mods for whatever it's worth) in case there's any doubt in his mind as to whether we're annoyed with him on this. Getting any extra ISPs to be aware of the community we have here can never be discounted. That's all, just a clarification.

zynaps

I have to be honest about this and say the way I see it, I think a seperate commercial interaction board for each ISP or whatever that had something new to add here by way of products/services (which is what getting internet access is obviously fundamentally dependent on) would only make it more difficult to find out just what all the current providers are offering, where and for how much etc.

This being irelandoffline, I like being able to see current competitive offers being on the main page, instead of having to go to a specific board for each provider who has put the effort in to get a CI thing.
This may just be due to laziness, but I just think we would have a better flow of information about what we could actually get wrt internet connectivity without having to find each ISP's homepage/press release/board/etc or rely on hearsay which is possibly the strongest form of communication here.

So... I don't think it's such a good idea to discourage commercial contenders posting in this way so strongly, though I obviously don't want to have them spam us with offers etc etc...
*scratches head*

zynaps

[edit]argh[/edit]

Ardmore

I'm happy with the way things have worked out, and I don't want to stir things up again. I just want to highlight one aspect of Sceptre response.

Originally posted by sceptre
The difference between UTV postings and IrishWisp seems as simple as UTV's early willingness to engage directly with users on specific issues. That impressed everyone.

Karl made 8 or 9 posts to the IrishWisp thread before the post that caused this discussion. They were largely in response to questions asked about the service, and notifications of changes in the coverage (I went back and read them). Karl was engaging with users, and contributing.

I was impressed

Ardmore

Originally posted by Hornet
I would like to invite Ardmore and Karl to check for themselves if they can accept DeVore's peace offer and can match it with a similar big step from their side.

DeV and I finished up on Friday night on quite amicable terms. I have no quarrels with anyone on how this thread has turned out.

Synkronite

Wow, how was that for warfare..

We should all just sit back and relax for a while

I look forward to the day Eircom sends one of its representatives to post here..