An update...

stormkeeper

I know this is abit long in coming, but I have news to do with the splitter. Well, first of all, I'd like to commend the person who was working on the internet branch of Eircom the time my mum was phoning. I was really impressed by the way they handled things with regards to my mum, who is literally sick to death of me mentioning about Eircom. I note, by the way that I'm nearly completely pissed off with Eircom as a company for juggling my mum around (my mum was the one who owned the main line, so I thought she'd be best off handling it).

Now, onto the main topic:

My mum phoned Eircom earlier on today to enquire about the splitter (which she now knows is illegal)... After being bounced around a few times, we get the number for the complaints department. My mum explained the situation to the complaints person, but suffice to say, they were no help.

So, basically I'm going to be sending that letter, as I wanted to see if this could be resolved over the phone before stepping up to the letter but, alas this wasn't the case.

Changing tangents for a second, but related to this posting was that the Eircom Net Tech Support person said that he found Eircoms reason of 'not enough capacity' for my estate as to why I didn't have a full line a feeble excuse. He also pointed out that he had to phone Eircom numerous times to get ISDN, which on a side note is now definately off the 'grand plan'.

So, basically, with the exception of the Tech Support person, everyone else basically either shunted us off to another department, or politely told us to 'sod off'. Naturally, I'm not really impressed with this, especially as I have a 650 Euro bill (the line rental for half a line, charged like a full, the installition of the piece of crap splitter, and then... The fact that I have to pay for dial up attempts (90% sure)).

I'm now switching over to UTVip, and as well as that, I'm sending off the letter asap. I will not tolerate being screwed around like this, as this has cost me a lot of frustration, and to add to that, my bill could have been around 60 Euros cheaper if the modem dialled up first time, every time.

I was willing to give Eircom the opportunity to resolve this over the phone, but it seems my 'leniency' was taken advantage of. I will not tolerate any more sh*te from Eircom any more... This is the last straw.

Edit: I forgot to mention also: Apparantly ISDN isn't activated in my estate, and according to Eircom, ADSL won't be around in the forseeable future.... Just my luck.

Mountjoy Mugger

Just bouncing an idea here. If you get an itemised bill, does it show the duration of each call?

I'd be tempted in asking for some legal advice about hitting the Small Claims Court and see what would happen if the Court saw all the calls to the same number lasting for 5 seconds approx, in quick succession.

As I said, just an idea that sprang to mind. I'm sure someone will tear it to shreds in a few minutes..

stormkeeper

I don't get an itemised bill... All I get is a summerised bill, which is annoying.

Mountjoy Mugger

It might be no harm requsting an itemised bill as a once off. I think it costs about €5.

ozt9vdujny3srf

itemised bill is free for people on "eircom options gold" i think,

well worth having.

BTW utv have online completely itemised bill every month

They are a good provider

As with the splitter. as it is illegal you may have rights for compensation

Kenshin

IIRC, a few years ago in Spain, Telefonica (Used to have an Eircom-style monopoly) was forced to stop charging for calls that didnt successfully connect. I guess there's a chance we could force Eircom to do the same things...

MarVeL

Wouldn't they have the (admittedly stupid but probably still valid) defence that the don't guarantee data calls only voice connection?

shabbyroad

but since the splitter is illegal then they wouldn't have a leg to stand on since it could be argued that the line splitter was the cause of the problem

go for it mate - the small claims court has been littered with cases against Telecom Eireann, Eircom etc...

drrnwbb

slight aside: if you register with eircom.ie you can get your bill in pdf format free every month. you still get the summary one posted to ya through regular mail. dont know if it is retrospective. doubtful.

dw

stormkeeper

Thanks for the advice lads, I'll be sure to put a lot of consideration into all of this... I want to see how the letter goes before bringing in the proverbial artillery... Who knows, maybe this letter might be successful (tho, I seriously doubt it for some odd reason).

And, I do have lots of proof the splitter caused the problems... I was dialling up fine until the splitter was installed, then the connectivity on my line, and the quality on my mums line went downhill.

dahamsta

I'm confused by this, I've seen so much conflicting information. Didn't someone say a while back that pairgains/splitters/whatever the hell you want to call them are only illegal for new installations? Could someone point me to definitive information on this please?

[EDIT: Ah, it's voice problems. I see. Sowwy.]

Thanks,
adam

stormkeeper

Originally posted by dahamsta
I'm confused by this, I've seen so much conflicting information. Didn't someone say a while back that pairgains/splitters/whatever the hell you want to call them are only illegal for new installations? Could someone point me to definitive information on this please?

[EDIT: Ah, it's voice problems. I see. Sowwy.]

Thanks,
adam

Actually, it's net and Voice probs... I also brought up a thread with a similar topic as such, rather the fact that Eircom installed a line splitter, as a new installation in November. I'm sending off the letter which I *should* have sent off ages ago.

zynaps

According to what I understand (from the posts of Muck, the walking, typing encylopaedia of telecomms tech anyway) after March or something last year, eircom was told not to install splitters unless as a temporary measure in unforseeable circumstances, ie. in remote areas where other lines have failed or something and it's a stop gap fix until proper lines are laid.

I don't think they could justify sticking one up in a residential estate in November...?

zynaps

stormkeeper

It was described as a feeble excuse by someone... ::wonders where all the lines would be kept::

dahamsta

::wonders where all the lines would be kept::

€ircon keeps all the lines in a cupboard in HQ and only gives them out to boys and girls who've been nice to the biddies.

adam

gurramok

As far as i can remember, splitters are also illegal when you transfer your voice calls to a competitor(ie..utvip).
So if splitter is on line when you transfer to rival provider, it is illegal for it to remain, eircon would have to remove it.
Same illegality applies to new installations as well.

spongebob

Originally posted by zynaps
after March or something last year, eircom was told not to install splitters unless as a temporary measure in unforseeable circumstances, ie. in remote areas where other lines have failed or something and it's a stop gap fix until proper lines are laid.

In April 2002 Eircom AND Comreg AND the OLO's (ESAT mainly) agreed a set of principles and signed off on it together. Rules is Rules. This is the Copper Management Plan.

I don't think they could justify sticking one up in a residential estate in November...?

zynaps

They can in extreme cases. Eircom and Comreg don't see eye to eye on 'extreme'...luckily for Kennett

They must provide a detailed analysis as to why it was the only way in Kennetts case. Was it permanent (in which case he is probably entitled to a rebate on his line rental) or was is because they were temporarily stuck for copper.

They must also state how long this temporary solution is intended to last........the regulator issued a document on Broadband policy yesterday. In regulator speak they admitted surprise at how BADLY Eircom have managed the Copper. Full doc is Here .

The key comment was on page 21 and sez

Whilst ComReg appreciates that some telephone lines may not be suitable for DSL services on account of the distance of the customer’s premise from the exchange, or particularly in rural areas, the presence of ‘loading coils’ and ‘bridge taps’ in the local loop, ComReg is concerned to hear reports of a disproportionate level of line test failures in urban areas, where distance is generally less of an issue and degradations in the local loop would not usually be expected.

Comreg are saying here that they expect 'pairgain' problems where you are RURAL and DISTANT. They are most concerned at outbreaks in URBAN areas CLOSE to the exchange where they seem to have been lulled into complacency as to the quality of the network. Remember that We Irish pay the highest line rental in the EU each month. Therefore we are entitled to the best network in Europe. The reason Comreg have noticed this problem and become 'concerned' is partly because Eircom customers are now contacting Comreg and saying Do your JOB people.

Off with ya Kennett. Unless your house was built on a 1930's estate or something they have no excuse.

M

highlight

Firstly, splitters/pairgains are perfectly legal for eircom to provide their USO. Where they should be removed is in a limited set of circumstances if the line is requested for Local Loop Unbundling.

spongebob

Originally posted by highlight
Firstly, splitters/pairgains are perfectly legal for eircom to provide their USO. Where they should be removed is in a limited set of circumstances if the line is requested for Local Loop Unbundling.

Wrong. The Customer is not defined as another carrier....simply as the customer.

The OVUM report in September 2002 baldly stated that they were illegal since April.

The CLFMP states that they ' may not be deployed ' from April if you are within 5km of an exchange or so.

Kennett is on a post Aprill 2002 split within that distance, had his line been split before then it he could fall into the category you describe Highlight.

Read the Ovum report and the (Dec 2002 revision) CLFMP please.

M

highlight

REad your pms where its all explained

The 5km relates to Sub Loop Insertions (FTTC)

The splitter is a different issue

stormkeeper

Kennett is on a post Aprill 2002 split within that distance, had his line been split before then it he could fall into the category you describe Highlight.

I'd just like to point out (in relation to this comment) that I'm right up the road from my local exchange, which is hell of a lot less than 5km... I see no reason why a line splitter is not to be considered illegal, due to the fact it degrades data and voice calls. In fact, I've found it a lot more expensive having a split line than a normal one.

Ie: x2 The line rental. While a normal phone line rental is €28/month, a line split in two is €28/x2 months for each half line, meaning that in fact, I'm being being charged €58/2 months for what is still considered one line in technical terms, then, coupled with the 3-6 dial-up attempts a day (think about 19c- 39c per dialup) makes a split line all that more expensive... Then there's also the fact that it prevents a person updating to DSL, and possibly switching to UTV/Esat, so I'm effectively stuck with Eircon, just because they installed this splitter, making it impossible for me to get speeds at over 32k (as opposed to 48k+ average). This would also be considered monopolistic behavior (mentioned in another thread, and can be deduced if you think about it long enough). As I've mentioned before, I never really wanted the line, but the eingineer installing it said it was either that or nothing... So I was forced to choose the splitter, which now means I'm going to spend at least one and a half to two times longer (at least) downloading patches, games, etc. (it used to take me about 30 minutes to get 10MB, now it's at least an hour).

I'm through putting up with crap from Eircom... I don't care whether a splitter is illegal or not... I never asked for it, so therefore I shouldn't have gotten it in the first place.

stormkeeper

Originally posted by Muck
Off with ya Kennett. Unless your house was built on a 1930's estate or something they have no excuse.

The estate here was built in the 1970's, so I guess the have no excuse... Just their 'feeble' one.

::bets Eircom people are lurking the boards at the moment wondering what's going on::

spongebob

....is normally long enough to figure out one very important bit of information.

"Lads we're running out of cable down here, lets run another one"

unless you're €ircon .

pepsiman

Originally posted by drrnwbb slight aside: if you register with eircom.ie you can get your bill in pdf format free every month. you still get the summary one posted to ya through regular mail.

I get my PDF bill online (download it from work though as it's too big) AND a printed itemised bill. Don't pay anything for it (at least it doesn't show on my bill). And with only € 19.20 per month (that's less € 195 after UTVip!) I can't claim any Eircom Options discounts. Still I get the itemised bill for free (it is! It shows I have made no calls! Honest!)

It was actuallly very very very nice to read on my monthly bill "Total of your last bill: € 215,47" - "Total [of this] bill: € 19.60" (Thank you UTVip!*)



/Thomas

* With the exception of the day I forgot to log off my internet connection and PC, and left it on when going to work. 9.5 hours = €24 to UTVip. KaZaA-aarrgghhhh!!!

stormkeeper

....is normally long enough to figure out one very important bit of information.

"Lads we're running out of cable down here, lets run another one"

unless you're €ircon.

Can anyone say... "Lack of Foresight?"

highlight

There is no relation between the 5KM and the splitter, Kennett. Mis information.

Eircom are entitled to charge you for a full line - the USO is 2.4. If yo're getting that you must pay

spongebob

she's right on the 5km - splitter, they are not linked.

if you are over 8km from the exchange you may NEED a splitter, ironically

what is linked however is that Eircom have underprovisioned copper for 30 years in your area and are now required to meet time based targets on installations (order > completions).

To meet these targets they cannibalise existing customers lines.

The ESB wouldn't knowingly degrade your electricity service to 110v (half) because of 30 years of underinvestment in your area.

By what principle of equity of service are Eircom allowed to do this ?

M

highlight

Muck,

I'm a she

stormkeeper

Originally posted by highlight
Eircom are entitled to charge you for a full line - the USO is 2.4. If yo're getting that you must pay

You mean they can charge me the full price of one phone line for half a line?

Am I the only one who finds this outrageous?

Edit: Because of the splitter also, I'm effectively tied to Eircom, and as a result I'm technically helpless as if this splitter isn't removed... Who can I sign up with? No one!* Basically, I'll be continued to be ripped off by Eircom, just because of something they did... Why should I have to be punished for wanting to change telephone providers?

I shouldn't, but I still am being punished with the likes of: double the line rental I should be paying, speanding at least 30- 60 cents a day *trying* to dialup to check my email, boards, etc, unexcusable modem speeds, no chance for ADSL when it comes to my town, and finally, no choice of being able to change telephone providers.*

Should this really be allowed to happen to me or anyone else plagued by the same? The answer is no, simply due to the fact that we never asked for it, and yet it takes away so many of our privilages as customers.

That is the main issue here, regardless of whether a pairgain is illegal or not... It's about your choices being restricted in such a way, you literally have nowhere to turn to.

And, on a side-note, I'm not even 1km from the exchange, so why was this splitter installed in the first place?

*I'm taking a general assumption here about having no choice of providers with that splitter in place, but the rest of it is true.

spongebob

Originally posted by Kennett
I'm effectively tied to Eircom, and as a result I'm technically helpless as if this splitter isn't removed... Who can I sign up with? No one!*

absolutely. You are now Guaranteed to fail every ADSL test owing to a deliberate degradation of the Copper Loop on your premises by the (near) monopoly operator.

Luckily for you, Comreg have woken up to the wider implications of promoting effective competition in the market.

Also complain to the Competition Authority about this abuse of monopoly and demand that they state their position on it as a minimum........

Then there is the new USO Late July. This will include the right to discounts in the event of persistent degradation of Copper by pairgains. Everyone on a given pairgain will be entitled to know and claim their discount. It is a by product of the ADSL database where lines that fail the ADSL test must be batch audited with the failure reason logged in the database and available on request. Note they dont have to tell you under this system, you have to ask.

They will have one month to rectify and then you and all the neighbours on the same Pairgain will get a 50% discount till more copper is run out. The logic is that the irish pay the highest line rental in the EU so we will get the best network out of our investment. Damn sure.

This will apply within c.5 miles (8 km ) of every exchange. Beyond that WLL will have to be offered because Copper is not a good solution. In Clár areas there will be a grant or a tax relief for WLL but not in more affluent rural areas I understand.

M

stormkeeper

Originally posted by Muck
absolutely. You are now Guaranteed to fail every ADSL test owing to a deliberate degradation of the Copper Loop on your premises by the (near) monopoly operator.


I feared as much.


Luckily for you, Comreg have woken up to the wider implications of promoting effective competition in the market.


That is a good sign... Maybe my letter might work now... I need to look it over a bit to see if I can add anything...


Also complain to the Competition Authority about this abuse of monopoly and demand that they state their position on it as a minimum........


Do you know where i could get a hold of them?