Eircom DSL residential package?

Dustaz

So i was spreading some christmas cheer last night at a work do and in between avoiding insulting the boss and trying not to leer at too many women i ran into someone i know who works in eircom. He had a very interesting story for me.

Apparently Eircom are readying a residential dsl package to compete with Esats one. 512/128 for €50 approx. the catch being that its a 50:1 contention rather than a 24:1 contention (Esats residential DSL is 50:1 also). He seemed fairly sure that its a 512 downstream rather than 256 and aimed squarly at esat. Im not sure about a cap, but i would assume there will be one.

Now, i have to stress that this is unconfirmed and i cant deny that it came from "a bloke down the pub". However, this is a good source and has been correct before.

Now, 512 downstream for €50 is good news, but perhaps the better news if this pans out is that eircom and esat are reacting to each other in a competitive manner. And thats the best christmas present we could hope for

Boston

doesn't eircoms adsl have a 50:1 ratio anyway, but its 2mbs where as esats is 24:1 and 1mb. I'm working from memory here and only the other day someone asked me for the ODTR doc that backs this up(there was an eircom one i know off) but i'm pretty sure im right. And i dont really know how this works but i can remember long talks with hubson about this and i think he said the 50:1 with 2mbs was better.

So what your man told you makes little sense if the above is correct. Also i would be at all surprised if its a thing where you get charged straight up per mb downloaded, or some other such crap.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Boston
So what your man told you makes little sense if the above is correct. Also i would be at all surprised if its a thing where you get charged straight up per mb downloaded, or some other such crap.

Pretty sure it's all 24:1.

Boston

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Pretty sure it's all 24:1.

what you quotes and what you replied dont make sense together. Anyway does anybody have actual proof of what the ratio's are. I think, now i'm not sure so dont quote me, BT's where 50:1 and 2mbs and i remember eircoms was about the same, but you wight be right in what you say, it could have been 24:1 and 1 mb

SkepticOne

Boston,

See page 22 of this document. It is the wholesale bitstream service offered to OLOs and is supposed to be based on the retail product. If Eircom offered a 50:1 retail service, they would have to offer a 50:1 wholesale bitstream service to OLOs.

misterq

Hi

The current contention ratios for Eircom and Esat ADSL offerings are:
Eircom - 24:1
ESAT BT - 20:1

These are for the business packages.


The home user ESAT BT offering is more than likely much higher, as the Eircom one would be.

Regards

Ronan

ozt9vdujny3srf

i am sure this has been explained b4 but what the hey :P

Wats a contention ratio exactly?

Boston

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Boston,

See page 22 of this document. It is the wholesale bitstream service offered to OLOs and is supposed to be based on the retail product. If Eircom offered a 50:1 retail service, they would have to offer a 50:1 wholesale bitstream service to OLOs.

Yes I've read that and it ties in with what i remember, I see 24:1 for 1 mb. what i hadnt realised was that its also 24:1 for the 512k service. so in essence it is allready 50:1 and 1mb for the 512k service so whats your man in the pub says is abite confusing, unless they plane to offer a service thats like 50:1 and 512k pipe. If so i wont be buying it, not for 50 euro a month.

NB i know 24:1 and 1mb isnt the same as 48:1 2mb, theres all kinds of weird and wacky stat reasons for it to.

As for what it is, If the adsl product is sold to 24 then they put on a pipe equal to the speed of of 1 user. therefore its 24:1. They then uses a booking system for downloads. 24:1 for 1 mb is meant to be pretty good. It all works of the principal that not everyone uses their full bandwidth 100% of the time.

PiE

Means there'll be 24/50/xx people sharing a 1Mbps pipe.

The lower the better.

[Boston said it... in a bit of a confusing manner tho ]

And if it's true (€50 incl. VAT?) then I'm sorry but I'd have to take it

C'mooooon UTV, offer something.

Boston

Not quite, i think it will be 24 people share a 1mb/512k/256k pipe or 50 shareing a 512k pipe. You may ask yourself whats the difference between that and what yo usaid, and in truth i dont know, i just know theres a difference between the service you get if 24 people sharing your connection speed and 50 people are sharing twice it.

anyway that 50:512k option may sound good but during peak times thats going to really suck and you might start wonderign what you spenting your 50 euro on. It wont be 50 euro anyway

Dustaz

what i hadnt realised was that its also 24:1 for the 512k service. so in essence it is allready 50:1 and 1mb for the 512k service so whats your man in the pub says is abite confusing, unless they plane to offer a service thats like 50:1 and 512k pipe.

err, can we have that in english please ?:)

The bold bit of the quote is exactly what they are planning to offer boston, if you had actually read the first post


The contentions are such that people on the 1mb service do not share bandwith with the 512k service.

There was a post up here before saying that there are different dslams for different services

Boston

Originally posted by Dusty Claus
The bold bit of the quote is exactly what they are planning to offer Boston, if you had actually read the first post

I did, you clearly didn't, I was making the presumption that the current service was already a 50:1 offer, to which SkepticOne then corrected me. In my mind at the time of the post it was already a 50:1 service with a 1mb pipe, you didn't qualify your post by saying what pipe size the new service was, to which I then sought clarification and received if from SkepticOne yet again who pointed me in the direction of the a aforementioned ADSL PDF file. At which point I discover I was confusing BT with eircom and that eircoms ratios are 24:1 and not 50:1 as I had previously thought. Mystery solved. We have now ascertained that the new service, if there is one, will be 50:1 with a 512k pipe and that the other services are 24:1 with a 1mb pipe and a 512k pipe respectively. [/B][/QUOTE]

The contentions are such that people on the 1mb service do not share bandwidth with the 512k service.
[/B]

Who said they did, in fact I thought you didn't share bandwidth automatically with users outside the circle of 24 or 50 or ect, and that was why DSL is so attractive above cable or wireless.

Dangger

i am sure this has been explained b4 but what the hey :P

Wats a contention ratio exactly?

Here's a bit on contention ratio.

kamobe

To ad to your rumour spreading, a customer of mine who's fairly high on the decision making staff at Eircom was speaking of a similar service. When I spoke of Esats service he said they should be able to beat that soon enough, with a price of around €40/€50. The speed he mentioned was 1mb/s.
Maybe he was just looking for a discount...

Anyway, Merry Christmas folks

LoBo

well lets see.. Eircom's Business 'product' costs €107 a month and has a 3GB download cap. If they bring out a residential 'product' with the same speed costing €50-€60 I would like to predict right now that it will have a 1GB download cap.

pfft.

I'll be back from australia in 2004. I bet there's still no affordable broadband.

Calibos

50:1 contention ratio is acceptable isn't it?? If memory serves from reading about broadband in the uk IT print media over the years, they have a residential 50:1 ratio as well .

De Rebel

Assuming that FRAICO is available on 64k ISDN as well as analogue (a bit of an assumption I guess) how would that perform when compared with a 256k DSL service with a contention ratio of 1:50, say at 8-10pm assuming that 25% of the 50 were online?

Calibos

Its ironic that as soon as we seem to be getting affordable dsl by highlighting that there is in fact plenty of demand for the product out there, that we will want as few people as possible to actually use it so our connection speeds don't take too much of a hit!:D

Hannibal_12

I'm going to adopt a skeptical view on this as number 1, this is Ireland, good things don't happen here and most importantly 2, Its €ircon who I would not believe if they told me that blue is blue and green is green.
I'll wait and see.

On a side note I do hope Alfie Kane is enjoying all his ill gotten gains on his private Island in the Pacific where no doubt he enjoys an OC3 internet connection for free while constantly being pampered by women 1/4 his age who are able to mask their contempt for him thanks to the large salaries he is paying them. Hopefully he gets eaten by a shark while he lazes about in the sea, the dirtbag.

Dustaz

Originally posted by De Rebel
Assuming that FRAICO is available on 64k ISDN as well as analogue (a bit of an assumption I guess) how would that perform when compared with a 256k DSL service with a contention ratio of 1:50, say at 8-10pm assuming that 25% of the 50 were online?

This was my point about esats 256k service from the beginning. Assuming FRIACO comes in at a reasonable price, it simply doesnt make fiscal sense.

However, this product (again, assuming this is true) is a 512k connection - a proper broadband service - and tbh, i havent noticed ANY contention problems at 24:1 so 50:1 will probably be grand.

parasite

all of which begs the question, what will eircom call it ?? something like hyperparabolic-supersonic-jetspeed , powered by rat faeces ... probably

longword

Originally posted by De Rebel
Assuming that FRAICO is available on 64k ISDN as well as analogue (a bit of an assumption I guess) how would that perform when compared with a 256k DSL service with a contention ratio of 1:50, say at 8-10pm assuming that 25% of the 50 were online?

That comparison would depend on the contention ratios of the ISDN service - don't forget that all of the dialup products currently on offer are contended on multiple levels. There are many fewer dialup lines than there are subscribers, and beyond that only fraction of the bandwidth necessary to keep all those lines going simultaneously at full speed. I can't tell you what those ratios are for any given service, and I suspect that the script-reading tech support & marketing people can't/won't be able to tell you either.

On the bright side, 50:1 ADSL contention ratios seem to keep people happy enough in other parts of the world. Including the UK where that's the standard ratio for their residential service - and they don't have download caps. Over here the vicious cap will at least keep the Kaaza muppets in check. And you'll not have to suffer the pain and ignominy of an engaged tone.

HOWEVER.

I've run the numbers on ESAT's 256k service. Figuring you'll get about 26.5Kbyte/sec over 30.5 days, at full tilt you can grab about 66.5GBytes per month. Now divide that by 50 users and you get about 1.3GBytes per month. So regardless of any caps, if those 50 users on average try download more than 1.3GBytes per month, there will be tears because it's simply not going to happen. And that's assuming the downloads are all evenly spread over a 24 hour day. With a 50:1 512k service you can double all those number - but 2.6GB is still less than even I-Stream Solo's 3GB cap.

This could get interesting. I suspect 1.3GB is pretty close to the minimum level of usage for even a light broadband user - particularly when said user is parting with €50 or more for the privilige.

ozt9vdujny3srf

Originally posted by parasite
all of which begs the question, what will eircom call it ?? something like hyperparabolic-supersonic-jetspeed , powered by rat faeces ... probably

Eircom warp 10. engage

it does't get better than this lads.

Hannibal_12

To be honest I would be more than happy with a 50:1 contention ratio.
The problem in making calculations based on these contention ratios is that you need to make so many assumptions about what the "average user" actually is.
Some may use alot less during the monthly period than others for whatever reasons, then again there may be a few very heavy users that will compensate for others absence but of course they will be subject to a miniscule cap which may even be made more miniscule for this mythical residential package.
Its difficult to say unless its put into practice.

"If" they do launch this service will UTV then have the capability of launching a similar product?. i.e do €ircon have to offer a comparable wholesale package?.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Hannibal_12
"If" they do launch this service will UTV then have the capability of launching a similar product?. i.e do €ircon have to offer a comparable wholesale package?.

Yes. They have to offer a comparable bitstream service which is not capped. The ISP or OLO then connects up the backhaul to one or more of a number of hand-over points.

BoneCollector

particularly when said user is parting with €50 or more for the privilige

which is probably more close to €70 cus you have to include your line rental in this too (still too expensive!)

Dustaz

Originally posted by longword
I suspect 1.3GB is pretty close to the minimum level of usage for even a light broadband user - particularly when said user is parting with €50 or more for the privilige.

Ive done less than 700 megs some months. Ive done a lot more some others mind

Plus, as was mentioned 50:1 seems to work out quite well most other places.

If you do the maths, It compares to england fairly well. BT charge €48 per month for thier 512 service, without the cap admittidly and afaik that does not include line rental.

Boston

Originally posted by Dusty Claus
Ive done less than 700 megs some months. Ive done a lot more some others mind

Plus, as was mentioned 50:1 seems to work out quite well most other places.

If you do the maths, It compares to england fairly well. BT charge €48 per month for thier 512 service, without the cap admittidly and afaik that does not include line rental.

Right bts 500 plug and go service is 29.99 pounds incl Vat and its a 500/256k service. And believe we theres allot of people who think its crap with the 50:1 ratio.

How the hell did you ever only do 700mb, did yo usleep the whole month,

And Esats ADSL is offered within dublin, do i have to get the service and send you an invoice before you believe me and change the stick thread.

Pugwash

i know you have just found out the rumoured price but does anyone have an idea of release date?

longword

Originally posted by Dusty Claus
Ive done less than 700 megs some months.

The month you spent three weeks on the Carribean doesn't count

If you do the maths, It compares to england fairly well. BT charge €48 per month for thier 512 service, without the cap admittidly and afaik that does not include line rental.

My point is the 50:1 numbers are much harsher for ESAT's 256k service than for Eircom or BT's 512k service - it's more than simply a half speed service, regardless of caps. Since the line between a light user and a heavy user is drawn so much lower, you're much more likely to have the speed of your already 'slow' service further reduced by contention at any given time. Of course that assumes your average 256k user will surf the same sites, and download the same material as a 512k user.

spongebob

ESAT provision backhaul in multiples of 2Mb timeslots so if there are 8 persons with a 256k connection on a given 2Mb cable the contention is precisely 0

the contention ratios will start to bite as more connections are provisioned on that 2Mb connection.

I suspect that Eircom also provision in 2Mb units as well.

Boston

Originally posted by Muck
ESAT provision backhaul in multiples of 2Mb timeslots so if there are 8 persons with a 256k connection on a given 2Mb cable the contention is precisely 0

the contention ratios will start to bite as more connections are provisioned on that 2Mb connection.

I suspect that Eircom also provision in 2Mb units as well.

Hmm, so what your saying is that the pipe to the dslam will be either 2mb or 4mb or what ever, and just say you got eircoms 1mb service it would be 24:1 sharing a 4mb pipe? its 512k service would be 24:1 sharing 2mbs and its new service would be 50:1 sharing 2mbs. This sounds pretty acurate to me, you can't blame us for getting the figures abite mudled since eircom and esat dont make this info easy to obtain, and going by that eircom adsl pdf, if would be understandable to think the pipe was equal to the service provided.

longword

Originally posted by Muck
ESAT provision backhaul in multiples of 2Mb timeslots so if there are 8 persons with a 256k connection on a given 2Mb cable the contention is precisely 0

Certainly if you're the only one on the exchange you're laughing. But ESAT aren't quoting 50:1 ratios for the good of their health.

Boston

Originally posted by longword
Certainly if you're the only one on the exchange you're laughing. But ESAT aren't quoting 50:1 ratios for the good of their health.

I dont think it works that way either, I'm pretty sure you only share your pipe with the 24 or 50 other people.

longword

Originally posted by Boston
I dont think it works that way either, I'm pretty sure you only share your pipe with the 24 or 50 other people.

Nah, it makes lots and lots of sense to merge all of the bandwidth heading for a given exchange. The more they do that, the smoother the ride for the users and the better they can take advantage of idle users. But overall the ratio is still going to be around the 50:1 mark.

Son of Blam

Has anybody got any links to forums or someplace where people on a DSL connection with a contention ratio of 50:1 are having problems with slow downloads etc?

Rather than the old Boston-tastic of "Belive me, people on 50:1 give out about it", is there any site where people actually have posted up problems they're having? (Kind of like the NTHELL site except for DSL maybe?)

Boston

longword it makes sense, but i have to agree with dustaz and say that its at least not shared between users on different services and i dare say the pipe going to each Dslam is fixed.

Now i know this is not England and all but i was talking about this to someone, and they said the way bt works is BT share a 10Mbps pipe with up to 1000 users for a 50:1 contention and only put 500 users on each 10Mbps pipe for a 25:1 contention. Can anybody confirm or denie if this is also the case in ireland.


Son of Blam The problem is it would only takes 20 users using their full bandwidth 24/7 to start introducing contention on this pipe and then everybody else would feel it. When i used to browse english sites i came accross loads of people moaning about the download speeds at peak times and off peak. Bt have a 50:1 ratio.

Here some examples
Petition article Bt suck.org Gamers talk about BT ADSL Modem type speed

Boston

On a side note, does anybody know the max number of ports on each eircom DSLAM. I think the standard is 894 ports, so im wondering how they plane to over 50:1 service if that is the case. unless they are using some kind of dynamic port distributor.

Does anybody know what part if any Port distributors play in eircoms adsl service?

MagicBusDriver

In the UK, the contention ratio is 50.1 on paper. In reality its about 10.1. Contention ratios are not a major issue as user experience will testify too.

Boston

Originally posted by MagicBusDriver
In the UK, the contention ratio is 50.1 on paper. In reality its about 10.1. Contention ratios are not a major issue as user experience will testify too.

Well I've heard different about BT. Allot of other ISP's have 24:1 ratio's on there basic service and this wouldnt be a problem for most people. I think most people realise that over a certain level, contention ratios do become a major issue. Now if you live in the middel of no where, or an estate full of granies and only ever use the intraweb at night, then I'm sure that 50:1 will be just great.

Time will proof we right or wrong, within a month of this service going online there will be people here moaning about speed.

Lex_Diamonds

Can we lock this thread until some concrete information comes to light?

This forum has enough baseless speculation as it is.