Dermot Ahern Launches Draft Policy Direction to ComReg

SkepticOne

Read here.

Dustaz

Access to the Internet at Flat-rate Charges

The widespread availability of dial-up access to the internet charged at flat rates would be of substantial benefit to users as well as for the further development of the market for internet access provision. In the first instance, the development and provision of such access services are matters for market players. The Commission shall make use of its powers under the legislation as appropriate, to bring about agreements among market players for the provision to the public of dial-up internet access charged at flat rates. The Commission shall report to the Minister on progress in relation to this matter within one month of the issue of these Directions, making any recommendations it considers appropriate for further action.

and

Broadband Electronic Communications Networks

The Commission shall take into account the national objective regarding broadband rollout in its regulatory decisions, viz, the Government wants to see the widespread availability of open-access, affordable, ‘always on’ broadband infrastructure and services for businesses and citizens throughout the State within three years, on the basis of utilisation of a range of existing and emerging technologies and broadband speeds appropriate to specific categories of service and customers.

W00t!

DeVore

Body blow!
Body blow!
Upper Cut!


FINISH HIM!!!!

Eircom.... its official.... MOMMA SAID KNOCK YOU OUT!!!


plyd IOFFL, grats!

DeV.

spongebob

Its a bit of a Dolly Mixture really. The Minister seems to have included too much and in so doing he restated much of what is in the Comms Act 2002 anyway! The bits I liked that had not made it into the COMMS Act are that the minister Directed FRIACO and that due regard be given to the USO directive in the EU framework.

Section 13 of the Act provides for ministers to make Directives and also explains clearly that a Directive is not binding in Draft form....although it must first appear in draft form to allow consultation which is fair enough. It would also be a general principle of Administrative Law that the submissions on this must get due consideration, the due consideration period starts on the 12/01/03 . I suspect it becomes a mandatory policy plank for COMREG in or around the 010203...........hummmm.

13.—(1) In the interests of the proper and effective regulation of
the electronic communications and postal markets, the management
of the radio frequency spectrum in the State and the formulation of
policy applicable to such proper and effective regulation and management,
the Minister may give such policy directions to the Commission
as he or she considers appropriate to be followed by the
Commission in the exercise of its functions. The Commission shall
comply with any such direction.
(2) Before giving a direction under subsection (1), the Minister
shall give to the Commission and publish a draft of the proposed
direction and—
(a) give the reasons for it, and
(b) specify the period (being not less than 21 days from giving
it to the Commission or such publication, whichever is
the later) within which representations relating to the
proposal may be made by interested parties.
(3) The Minister, having considered any representations made
under subsection (2), may give the direction under subsection (1)
with or without amendment.

MDR

Phillip Nolan must be shaking in his boots ...

Off back to British Gas with you, you muppet ...

Edit,

Missing the word affordable from the 'Access to the Internet at Flat-rate Charges' section, as in the Broadband section.

In the 'Broadband Electronic Communications Networks' section, the word affordable needs to be defined in terms of a percentage range of the national wage average, me thinks.

The Commission must consider the business customer, when making decisions, 'Industry Sustainability'....

The Commission must consider what our compeditors have 'Consistency with Other Member States'... Good

The 'Regulation of retail prices' section worries me, I would advocate the raising of say the cost of local call in exchange for more affordable DSL. But me thinks the telcos would like thier cake and it eat in this matter.

I would also add the section, the Commission must encourage a telecoms maket such that the companies who operate in this market are encouraged to be innovative, and bring Ireland to the forefront of information delivery technologies.

Tazz T

'the Government wants to see the widespread availability of open-access, affordable, ‘always on’ broadband infrastructure and services for businesses and citizens throughout the State within three years'

THREE YEARS????????????????

MDR

throughout the State

that ain't gonna happen soon...
should be alot less for metropolitan areas,

Eircom is gonna fight all of this tooth and nail,
the Minister may have to introduce legislation,
Eircom will fight the legislation in the courts,
the courts will drag it out,
etc
etc
etc
Its still along battle, but it least its starting to look like the govt. is on our side.

stormkeeper

and that can't be a bad thing, can it?

topgold

Will IOFFL doorstep the minister with a formal written submission? That's a photo opp in the making if a proper submission can be formulated over the Christmas break.

I read the three year time period as equivalent to changing the status quo during the life of the current government. It could take an Internet eon to affect the islands. We could make the process more affordable by advocating higher power WiFi like they have in the island connection off the southern California coast.

There are issues here involving people in the wireless forum on boards.ie.

Xian

Originally posted by Muck
The bits I liked that had not made it into the COMMS Act are that the minister Directed FRIACO and that due regard be given to the USO directive in the EU framework.

The USO directive is a red herring, Muck. A little something I picked up from an FOI request to the department was a speaking note for the Minishter at the Dail Committee Stage of the Comms Bill:

Affordable access to the internet is likely to be addressed when a review of the scope of the universal service obligation applicable to telecommunications is carried out in the coming years. The new Universal Service Directive requires that the scope of the USO be reviewed periodically and that the first review take place two years after the Directive is applied in member states.

JimHacker

The "three years" section you refer to is a direct quote from the New Connections document s- it refers to 5mn/sec min always on connections - throughout Ireland - that means EVERY little houseen in the most rural part of the country.

The FRIACO bit is clear - ComReg must act - if they cant act (which the CAN) they must specity within 1 month the powers they need to act.


I think we need a petition to ComReg now - pressure from day one - telling them to use the Direction to deliver FRIACO within amonth.

JimHacker

The "three years" section you refer to is a direct quote from the New Connections document s- it refers to 5mn/sec min always on connections - throughout Ireland - that means EVERY little houseen in the most rural part of the country.

The FRIACO bit is clear - ComReg must act - if they cant act (which the CAN) they must specity within 1 month the powers they need to act.


I think we need a petition to ComReg now - pressure from day one - telling them to use the Direction to deliver FRIACO within amonth.

yellum

/me awaits how Etain will twist this to still favour Eircom

JimHacker

Of course she will -
Look - as I see it - no Minister has ecer come out as strongly on our side - even in the UK when Govt pressure was put on the regulator it was done in an off-the-record fashion - (obviously that didnt work with Etain as she's So pro EIRCOM) -


We have the Minister on-side - NOW LETS PRESSURISE on ETAIN AND COMREG

Dustaz

Think you meant to hit reply jim, thread merged

spongebob

Originally posted by Xian
Originally posted by Muck
The bits I liked that had not made it into the COMMS Act are that the minister Directed FRIACO and that due regard be given to the USO directive in the EU framework.

The USO directive is a red herring, Muck.

Affordable access to the internet is likely to be addressed when a review of the scope of the universal service obligation applicable to telecommunications is carried out in the coming years.

I have selectively quoted you Xian

As a denizen of rural Ireland the USO is vital.

We live in Pairgain territory. A combination of the 2002 Copper Loop Management plan and the USO directive that baldly states the Right to a decent 28800 connection, irrespective of where we live in the country, is what will eventually force Eircom to provide us with decent unshared copper as a CONSUMER right. The current USO entitles us to 2400bps, that would be a 1200% improvement for starters.

The USO directive may also contain the seeds of FRIACO in that it gives the CONSUMER the right to control costs.......

These rights are ours by May 2003....they are not ubject to bo-annual review. Biddy O'R interpreted all this as a clause to 'encourage' internet use in her Comms Act.....such twaddle but exactly what I would expect of Senator Biddy

The bi-annual reviews together with the ongoing right of the EU commission in Brussels to add bells and whistles to the basic package....broadband (however slow) for example.....will be vital if the Rat is to give us all the same service for the same line rental.

Otherwise rural Ireland is finished.........an information-less society in the post industrial world.

Come schmell the schlurry .

M

BoneCollector

Access to the Internet at Flat-rate Charges

>The widespread availability of dial-up access to the internet >charged at flat rates would be of substantial benefit to users as >well as for the further development of the market for internet >access provision.

TELL US SOMETHING WE DONT KNOW?

>In the first instance, the development and provision of such >access services are matters for market players.

SO NOW WE WAIT FOR SOMEONE TO PROVIDE A COMPETATIVE FLATE RATE PACKAGE WHICH IS DICTATED BY ERCON.. (HAVE WE NOT BEING WAITING LONG ENOUGH ALREADY?)

The Commission shall make use of its powers under the legislation as appropriate, to bring about agreements among market players for the provision to the public of dial-up internet access charged at flat rates.

ONCE AGAIN THE ODTR SITS IN A CORNER WAITING TO SETTLE DISPUTES?

The Commission shall report to the Minister on progress in relation to this matter within one month of the issue of these Directions, making any recommendations it considers appropriate for further action.

AND THEY TELL THE MINISTER NO ONE HAS CONTACTED THEM.


does`nt this not sound just like the same toothless watchdog we had under the old ODTR??

unless im missing something, once again this mandates nothing!?
and it doesn’t direct comreg to actively implement or pursue implementation of flat rate Internet access!?

Pooo!
its sound like more blx to me :mad:

Xian

Originally posted by Muck
As a denizen of rural Ireland the USO is vital.

We live in Pairgain territory.

I stand corrected. Much obliged, pilgrim. That said, the only reference I see to the USO, and the point I was responding to was:

The Commission shall ensure that, taking into account the requirement regarding the affordability of prices of electronic communications services that come within the universal service obligation, as defined in blah blah the provisions of a price cap under blah are set in such a way that they do not inhibit the development of blah.

From what you say, we should incorporate the pairgain issue in our comments so that it is a part of the directive and not something to be brushed under the carpet.

Dustaz

Originally posted by BoneCollector
Access to the Internet at Flat-rate Charges



The Commission shall make use of its powers under the legislation as appropriate, to bring about agreements among market players for the provision to the public of dial-up internet access charged at flat rates.


The Commission shall report to the Minister on progress in relation to this matter within one month of the issue of these Directions, making any recommendations it considers appropriate for further action.

The bold statements are the ones you should be reading

does`nt this not sound just like the same toothless watchdog we had under the old ODTR??

Um, no. This is a directive from the minister. The RegCom havent said anything yet, on account of them being officially active for a day. give them a chance before engaging in mindless rants please

and it doesn’t direct comreg to actively implement or pursue implementation of flat rate Internet access!?

well, it reads to me like thats exactly what it does.

Please, enough of the ranting. Reasonable comments are always appreciated.

SkepticOne

They should send in the army - get it sorted out quick. I think we can all agree that it would be worth the risk.

scojones

if eircom try to bring the issue to the courts could it be introduced before the case is settled? if not, it could be ages away!

LFCFan

Originally posted by sjones
if eircom try to bring the issue to the courts could it be introduced before the case is settled? if not, it could be ages away!

You mean when €ircon drag it through the courts.

BoneCollector

Please, enough of the ranting. Reasonable comments are always appreciated.

This is not ranting this is common sense if you read between the lines..

Also i have confirm what i have said is true.
It seems comreg are! still limited in how they can bring about specific flat rate products and still have there hands tied and connot themselves mandate anything.

they still have to wait for interested parties to contact them and only then can they step in and participate in negotiations, failed or otherwise.
"powers under the Interconnect directive (97/33/EC) do not change.
Comreg may only intervene on a refusal of a reasonable request from an
OLO to eircom, or if eircom introduce a retail product without a
wholesale equivalent."

so overall not alot has changed except the name.
though there are indications they maybe able to demand much lower price on Fraico but not! DSL,
And there maybe hopes of seeing a fraico product in january 2003

vinnyfitz

1. This is welcome. Things have moved as fast as we could expect.

2. It will still be a long haul. When the Minister gets back his comments he will still have to think about them before he issues the formal direction. So he may issue the Direction in early Feb (if we are lucky). Regulator has to respond within a month - early March? But what will that CCR response say? "Please sir can I have more powers"? or "It is all fine the market is sorting it out" or "We are taking steps immediately to instruct Eircom to offer a product at price X and in time frame Y"?

3. Some things it would be nice to find out about the process at this stage:
i. Will responses to the Ministerial draft be published in January? (I would certainly like to see Eircom's and the CCR's own response). It is disappointing that the Consultation does not remind potential respondents that thier response will be subject to FOI. This is standard practice these days.
ii. How fast does the Minister expect to turn the draft into a direction after 11 Jan?

4. What is the committee planning in terms of preparing a response? What help do you need from members? I presume that the IOFFL response will be published together with a press strategy as proposed elsewhere in this thread?

5. Some issues it strikes me should be raised in our paper:
i. The Flat Rate section does not mention "affordable" - this seems to me to be a big error there is little point in mandating expensive flat-rate. The "affordable" word is only used when the discussion comes around to broadband. Ireland will become more unequal if those lucky enough to get broadband can have it at affordable rates while those stuck with poor infrastructure have to pay through the nose for flat rate. I think this is very odd. I think IOFFL should put a target price on Flate Rate per month and urge the Minister to put this into the final direction.
ii. Broadband timetable is unexciting - widespread availability of always on broadband to citizens and business within three years. IOFFL should urge the Minister to give the CCR the job of much tighter progressive targets for availability, how they monitor that, how promptly do they report etc.
iii. Legal challenges. As discussed above we expect that Eircom will try to undermine this Directive. What should we put into our response to try and lock the Minister and CCR into pre-empting lengthy court battles? Not sure about this - does anyone know a competition lawyer who could help the committee with this aspect?

I'm just scraping the surface here

De Rebel

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
4. What is the committee planning in terms of preparing a response? What help do you need from members?

This is critical - there is a small window here to influence matters. There is no doubt that we have a chance to help tighten up the directive before it is issued in final form. There is no doubt that IOFFL will be listened to. We have until 10th January to complete a submission. 2 or 3 words changed in that document could be worth more that 1000 vapid posts to this forum. What is IOFFL doing now........ Who is leading this during the chairman's well earned break........???

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
1. This is welcome. Things have moved as fast as we could expect.

Certainly a lot faster that I expected - and a lot faster that your timeline if I remember rightly!! By Irish Government standards, this is moving at breakneck speed. We should give Ahern some credit for that - too much negative verbiage here could cost us his confidence.

Originally posted by vinnyfitz

5. Some issues it strikes me should be raised in our paper:

5.i The Flat Rate section does not mention "affordable" - A critical omission - that MUST be remedied.

5.ii. Broadband timetable is unexciting - Agreed - there will be a reluctance to put to many specifics in the final directive, but something more measurable is required - we need a political wordsmith to work on this one!

5.iii. Legal challenges. The word on the street is that there may not be a challenge in the case of FRAICO - Ericom may have accepted the inevitable - however we should not be complacent and should cater for the eventuality.

Once again I would endorse what vinnyfitz is saying - we need to act - leadership please committee - we are here to help and await your instructions

Fergus

I'm kinda with bone collector on this.. although the minister has directed the commission to use its powers to 'bring about agreements' between the players, I don't really see where there are any new powers (apart from unrealistically enforceable fines). The commission is still basically the same old ODTR cronies.. and these guys have been telling us all along how they would just love to make flat-rate happen if they only could..

At least there's the one month thing. They'll prolly come back with a rehash of their existing excuses based on the same EU legislation we've been running with all along. Then what? More legislation could take a while.

Possibly the telcos have decided in the background between themselves to do FRIACO anyway at this stage, and it will all just magically happen and the minister will take credit. Then again, Beanz O'Reilly still has eircom on the asset-stripping short-term-cash-grabbing route, presumably until his consortium offloads it as planned in a year or two. So maybe eircom are just going to stay on the legal obstruction route until then.

De Rebel

Originally posted by Fergus
I'm kinda with bone collector on this.. although the minister has directed the commission to use its powers to 'bring about agreements' between the players, I don't really see where there are any new powers (apart from unrealistically enforceable fines). The commission is still basically the same old ODTR cronies.. and these guys have been telling us all along how they would just love to make flat-rate happen if they only could..

At least there's the one month thing. They'll prolly come back with a rehash of their existing excuses based on the same EU legislation we've been running with all along. Then what? More legislation could take a while.

Possibly the telcos have decided in the background between themselves to do FRIACO anyway at this stage, and it will all just magically happen and the minister will take credit. Then again, Beanz O'Reilly still has eircom on the asset-stripping short-term-cash-grabbing route, presumably until his consortium offloads it as planned in a year or two. So maybe eircom are just going to stay on the legal obstruction route until then.

That is a very pessimistic take on the situation. The draft encompasses the strongest possible language that the minister can use without predjuicing his position and that of the CCR. And the report back one month after the issuing of the directive is not there as an opportunity for the CCR to waffle, its purpose is "The Commission shall report to the Minister on progress in relation to this matter within one month of the issue of these Directions, making any recommendations it considers appropriate for further action."

In other words, if you need more teeth come back and tell me.

For a Minister in an Irish Government to go as Up-Front as this guy is doing is quite impressive. And to give people a public one month deadline is unprecedented.

With respect, I think that you and the rest of the committee would be better engaged reviewing the draft directive and getting a submission together than whining into the ether.

Fergus

Thanks for the reply DeRebel. Let me just add that I wasn't just trying to be pessemistic for the sake of 'whinging'. I'm just trying to add my 0.02 to the open debate, as part of the process contributing to IOffL's formal response.

Xian

Originally posted by De Rebel
Who is leading this during the chairman's well earned break

That would be me.

we need to act - leadership please committee - we are here to help and await your instructions

We're thrashing out the issues at the moment amongst ourselves. Once we've come to some kind of consensus we'll put up the core issues we want addressed up here (by the end of the weekend). Then the thrashing is all yours. In the meantime, as well as sending them directly to the Minister, post your opinions on the directive up here. The more input we get, the better for our response.

De Rebel

sounds good. never doubted yiz. will see if i can come up with anything to add.

Xian

Originally posted by Xian
post your opinions on the directive up here.

...or email them to me.

BoneCollector

The draft encompasses the strongest possible language that the minister can use

Well then read it again..
an dont try imagine what you think it means. it says what it says and is simply restating what we already know and mandates noting. It tells comreg to do its job which is by the same rules the ODTR was doing its job (or lack there of)
if you break it down.. unless new powers are issued to comreg to support the directive, not alot can happen. (i have sent a responce to the minister in this respect)
We might see a flate rate product in jan or we may not, but it will not! be because of comreg actively pressing for it, but because, some other! interested party be it esat, utvip or other, has shown interest in providing such a product and have "requested" that comreg get involved
As far as eircom is concerned, if no one shows an interest in providing a product, Eircom shure as hell wont! and comreg dont have any powers to demand that they do!?
Another thing to concider is that regulator here does not act on behalf of consumers (as it can in UK) but only on behalf of business. so we as consumer dont have anyone to fight for us in this respect.

JimHacker

In reply to the above - the policy direction from teh Minister eminates fromt he Communications Act and has legfal status. If COMREG acts contrary to the direction that catr is legally challangable. In addition, the Minister has stated - on Newstalk 106 and elsewhere that he belives COMREG has the powers to mandate FRIACo. I believe this is the case - so does essentially anyone I have spoken to who has read the legislation etc. This Direction as I see it, is the Minister telling CopmReg to get off their arses and get the work done,

If ComReg cannot do this WITHIN ONE MONTH they must state why not. In IOFLS reply to the draft policy direction you should insist that the ComReg reply to the One Month FRIACO Direction must be made public.


The main point you seem to miss is this - the Irish telecoms market is a liberalised market with no state control but a regulater.
Clearly the regulater is NOT doing her job and therefore the Minister is stepping in - he shouldnt have to (as I see it).

Its silly (and lazy and and simplistic and pointless) fopr people in here to keep rattkling of simplisms such as "the govt has to bring broadband into every house in the country"- govt is NOT a telco. The liberalised market was to look after demand - that is is not it due 1. to the global economic downturn 2.to an ineffectual regulator who doen not use her powers 3. demographic patterns in oireland - it would be great if we all lived together in neat little appartment blocked as in korea - byut we dont.

Start trying to be part of the solution - moaning is too easy

BoneCollector

COMREG has the powers to mandate FRIACo. I believe this is the case

You can believe that the sun wont shine tomorrow, that dont make it so..

If you read my previouse posts all of them!
You will notice that the regulator is re-active and not pro-active and has always stated it cannot intervien untill it is approached buy third parties (business) and cannot! mandate anything.
the only time it has any power is when it is requested! to attend meetings and then its only power is to set a wholesale price

Start trying to be part of the solution - moaning is too easy

I have been in constant contact with to ODTR/Comreg and the ministers office and other gov dpts since the campaign started and this is the current status.. anyone that believes! otherwise is delusional!

spongebob

I concur with the theory that Ahern is right and Doyle is wrong.

As she is the one who may be sucessfully sued (and therefore look incompetent), and not Ahern, I sympathise with her but only slightly!

She also has the responsibility for Consumer Law in respect of Telecoms . Carmel Foley in the ODCA is EXPILICITLY not responsible for credit and telecoms according to the consumer credit act 1994 or 1995 .

In her lesser known role as a Consumer Rights enforcer Etain can set a minimum standard known as a Universal Service Obligation which is a charter of Basic Rights for all consumers of the Telecom products licenced by her.

She is very busy with competition gobble and with technobabble but shows very little empathy for the ultimate bill payer.... the consumer...who also pays for her unusually large office with 120 staff through levies on turnover.

Refocusing her office towards the consumer is not inimicable to the national interest, one of the many reasons why her risible USO document of 4 years ago is long overdue a makeover.

M