EsatBT Begrudgery

Xian

The story goes that after a bus crashed in Dublin a few years ago, more people turned up to claim damages than could have fitted in the bus. Since the launch of UTVip, you'd get the same impression from the boards - that more people got "the letter" than were on NoLimits. Mostly it's a case of biting the hand they no longer expect/need to feed from, remedied by pointing them to the Rules. However, when the former chairman of IrelandOffline refers to EsatBT as "w***ers" while Adam seems to have taken them on as a personal crusade, something more needs to be said.

There was a good quote in last weeks paper from JM Keynes: "As circumstances change, so I change my opinions. What do you do, sir?"

Circumstances have changed. After year and a half we have two NoLimits packages. We also have two operators in negotiations with Eircom for wholesale flat rate.

Yes, EsatBT acted in bad faith by saying they were in negotiations they were afterwards found not to have been in, but bear in mind an evaluation of the flat rate situation given by Adam himself at the beginning of the year:

broadband is on the table and it's getting there, slowly but surely... the biggest pressing issue at this moment in time is FRIACO, precisely because it isn't on the table. It's not on the table, it's not in the cupboard waiting to be moved closer to the table, it simply doesn't exist in Ireland at the moment. That's just not acceptable, and as a pressure group with flat-rate services as our primary aim, we have to realign and regroup to tackle that.

Now EsatBT can be shown to be currently actively involved in trying to get wholesale flat rate in Ireland. They have stated this publicly and have called on industry to lobby the Government and the ODTR to facilitate its introduction. Their meetings with Eircom and the ODTR, unlike those promised in the past, are a matter of record.

Why scupper the hard work of IO to date? If IrelandOffline, the only organisation that has been consistently calling for flat rate over the last two years, is seen to be divided on EsatBT's efforts at introducing flat rate they may be tempted to pull out of costly discussions and look elsewhere to make profits and justify themselves to their parent company. Nevadatele would then not last long on its own. After their recent cutbacks, they're unlikely to bet on a swift resolution to talks with Eircom. For Eircom it will be easier to stall discussion when dealing with one OLO rather than two, especially when the OLO is not a heavyweight like EsatBT.

If anyone has any evidence that EsatBT in their current initiative to introduce flat rate are not acting in good faith, state your case. Otherwise support their efforts. If you have the need to vent spleen, direct it, as ever, at Eircom, the only party to the discussions that are demonstrably acting in bad faith, being the cause of the latest impasse.

If you cannot change your opinions in the light of changed circumstances hold your peace. You're not doing us any favours by parading them here.

Christian

[edit- You'd think that after 44 replies someone would have pointed out that it's Nevadatele that are negotiating, not Conduit. Doh!]

hmmm

Originally posted by Xian
Why scupper the hard work of IO to date? If IrelandOffline, the only organisation that has been consistently calling for flat rate over the last two years, is seen to be divided on EsatBT's efforts at introducing flat rate they may be tempted to pull out of costly discussions and look elsewhere to make profits and justify themselves to their parent company.

If you cannot change your opinions in the light of changed circumstances hold your peace. You're not doing us any favours by parading them here.

Crap. It was said at the time of "the letter" that Esat had upset the very people it is now aiming an internet package at. They appear to have misled IOFFL in their dealings with flat rate prior to the current administration. If you are now asking us to forget everything that certain telcos have done to screw us over, you're wasting your time imnsho.

Esat are not doing us a favour by introducing flat rate access. They are not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing is at part of a strategy by which they can profit. If they want to change their strategy, off they go, there's a profitable market in flat rate and broadband, and the vacuum will be filled eventually.

I agree that unsubstantiated opinions casting aspersions on Esats dealings are wrong. I don't agree that we should now forget the history of what has gone before and cheer loudly for those companies who have made us go through it. We should encourage companies from a purely selfish viewpoint by simply pointing out the value proposition.

If they introduce a package that is better value than what we have currently, and offers better customer service and quality than the UTV option then I'll consider it. They have upset a lot of their customer base, and it'll take a lot more than one page ads in newspapers telling us how much they love and feel for us before I consider using them again.

DonegalMan

Originally posted by Xian
. However, when the former chairman of IrelandOffline refers to EsatBT as "w***ers"

The emphasis is on "former chairman", Xian. When I was Chairman, I had to quite often hold back my personal feelings in the better interest of the organisation, now I no longer have to do that.

The reasons I am so hard on Esat at present are mainly:

• I gave them credit for being the most innovative telco in Ireland when they originally launched SNL but that was what, 5 or 6 years ago? What have they done since to move things forward ?
  
• Whilst the reasons for them curtailing the SNL service were understandable, the way they went about it was totally unforgiveable - for a company of their size and with their marketing/PR resources, this was an unbelievable shambles.
  
• I pointed out to them in the earliest meetings that the people they upset were a group of highly IT literate, vociferous people who actually shared Esat's (stated) objectives; I pleaded with them to do something to get these people back 'onside' with them - what have they done? SFA
  
• They deliberately misled us about negotiations on FRIACO.
  
• Their internal organisation appears to be a shambles; we had all the original confusion at the time of the SNL debacle when Customer Care were saying things contrary to management; they claimed a 2 hour cutoff was introduced when it never was; this forum is still regularly littered with people complaining about Esat's billing ineffiencies.
  
• Their latest attempt to launch the NetSmart service and the advertising campaign is IMHO a very weak attempt to counteract what UTVInternet have achieved. Winners in the IT/Telecoms industry are noted for being proactive not reactive, which is the mode that Esat seems to have gone into.

I don't get any enjoyment out of having a go at Esat, I do so in despair more than anything else. Our Internet situation in this country is in dire states and I believe this is one of the biggest threats to our economic future. Eircom have shown no willingness to do anything about it. Esat are their only sizeable local competitor (though UTVInternet could be the 'dark horse' here) and we should be looking to them to grab the existing situation by the scruff of the neck. Unfortunately, in recent times they have shown no real inclination to do so.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe what is happening is the start of a new phase for Esat - I'm delighted to see them introducing these new services but they seem very half-hearted about it to me. In the interests of this country as a whole, I desperately hope I am wrong, but I am a long way from being convinced yet.

In terms of "scuppering the work of IOFFL", I don't accept that. In the early days of IOFFL there were two broad 'camps' - those who thought IOFFL should stay completely clear of Esat and those who thought we should work closely with them; I was one of the latter and fought very hard to get this policy adopted. I can't see that it achieved anything of real value so I see nothing harmful to IOFFL in me or anyone else now stating our frank views of ESAT.


Martin

Delphi91

Originally posted by hmmm
...Esat are not doing us a favour by introducing flat rate access. They are not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing is at part of a strategy by which they can profit.

And there is something wrong with this??? Of COURSE they're doing it to make a profit! What else would you expect them to do? The fact that SNL was losing money is why 2000 of us got kicked off.

...I don't agree that we should now forget the history of what has gone before and cheer loudly for those companies who have made us go through it. We should encourage companies from a purely selfish viewpoint by simply pointing out the value proposition.

I think you'll find that people HAVE been encouraging UTV from that very point.

I do find the reaction to ESAT "interesting" to say the least. Yes, I was an SNL customer and yes, I was kicked off. I would argue my "over use" of the facility, but not a lot I can do about it now.

I've already stated in another thread that I thought the way they did it was a PR disaster. But I think that their hands were tied on the profit/loss issue.

As for them saying one thing and doing another, well, would you expect every company to reveal it's actions? Especially on a forum which is open to all and sundry. I certainly wouldn't jeopardise any discussions I was having or might be having with the incumbent Teleco by broadcasting it here.

If they introduce a package that is better value than what we have currently, and offers better customer service and quality than the UTV option then I'll consider it. They have upset a lot of their customer base, and it'll take a lot more than one page ads in newspapers telling us how much they love and feel for us before I consider using them again.

I just hope to God that UTV don't suffer the same fate as SNL in a year or two's time! After the serious praise they got for "rescuing" us from the evil Empire, I'd hate to imagine the toungue lashing they might suffer!!!:D

Mike

Rags

Circumstances have changed. After year and a half we have two NoLimits packages

Maybe your living in another reality then rest of us , we certainly dont have any no limits packages. We have 2 very limited off peak offerings from esat and utv which are extremely expensive compared to the rest of europe. Esat sat on their asses for over a year and said nothing, did nothing until utv come along and shell shock them with superior product and most definetly superior customer support. I dont think there is anything else to add, the last few posts said all that I wanted and probably better then I could of said it.

Mountjoy Mugger

Originally posted by Rags
Maybe your living in another reality then rest of us

My thoughts exactly.

I used be of the impression that Xian was a sensible person, and represented my, and many other Boards.ie readers', views.

I certainly hope that these are Xian's own personal views, and not that of the other committee members of IOFFL.

kamobe

IMPORTANT NEWS FOR IOL NOLIMITS CUSTOMERS

I will never EVER forget that letter.

They tried to blame US instead of Eircom, and then went on to do nothing about it. Aside from kick us off.....

Paddy20

Everyone has their off days, especially when trying to remain sane in this totally insane Internet access fiasco. It is enough to drive anyone up the wall, even Xian - whom I feel sure was venting a buildup of sheer frustration.

I never knew that DonegalMan/Martin was the ex-chairperson of IOFFL!. Thats the second thing I have read on this forum today that actually has cheered me up?

Lets face it we are all inside a "Pressure cooker" of a situation and it is very easy for any IOFFL member to offend/annoy somene either intentionally or simply by getting some diction wrong? as I have found. I was well annoyed as I never joined IOFFL to learn damned English which is not even my native language, yet the "Piranhas" were at me over such a triviality.

From now on, I for one will not be giving anyone reading this forum any reason to castigate IOFFL its members or voluntary Commitee.

Preserve your energy for attacking the real enemy when needed.

Yours,

paddy20:cool:

hmmm

Jaysus Paddy, first post from you I've read that makes sense

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by hmmm
If you are now asking us to forget everything that certain telcos have done to screw us over...They are not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

FORGIVENESS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE HURT OR HARMED YOU:
There are many ways I have been harmed by others, abused or abandoned, knowingly or unknowingly, in thought, word, or deed. Let yourself picture and remember these many ways. Feel the sorrow you have carried from this past und sense that you can release this burden of pain by extending forgiveness when your heart is ready. Now say to yourself: I now remember the many ways others have hurt or harmed me, wounded me out of fear, pain, confusion, and anger. I have carried this pain in my heart too long. To the extent that I am ready, I offer them forgiveness. To those who have caused me harm, I offer my forgiveness, I forgive you.
Let yourself gently repeat these three directions for forgiveness until you feel a release in your heart. For some great pains you may not feel a release but only the burden and the anguish or anger you have held. Touch this softly. Be forgiving of yourself for not being ready to let go and move on. Forgiveness cannot be forced; it cannot be artificial. Simply continue the practice and let the words and images work gradually in their own way. In time you can make the forgiveness meditation a regular part of your life, letting go of the past and opening your heart to each new moment with a wise loving kindness.


From Buddha's Little Instruction Book

Peter

Dustaz

I have to see im delighted to see Xian making those views clear. I Dont agree with all of his points, but i do agree with the general thrust of what hes saying. While Ireland Offline is not a politcal organisation, it has to play the politcal game a little. Constantly bad mouthing the one of the only companys who can put the pressure thats needed on Eircom to shape up is not a good way of achieving our objectives.

As mod of this forum, one of the things that really annoys me is the incessant repetition of Eircom as the great persecutor. Its true, theyre the devil, but christ i dont want to read about it every 3 posts In recent weeks, it has also slightly irritated me that esat have been demonised to the extent they have been.

Esat have made some bad mistakes (the letter), have been deceptive (misleading Ioffl) and also pissed me and i guess the rest of us off by offering their latest offer as a seemingly kneejerk reaction to UTV. Im not so sure the latter is true however, i seem to remember hearing they were in joint negotiations before the two offers and they were also the first to go public with thier offer (yes, i know they revised it when they saw UTVs....You may not be used to this, but thats what is called "competition" in the real world).

However, at the end of the day they do have the clout to negotiate a flat rate deal and possibly more importantly they have the recources to bring the fights attention to a wider audience. The ad in the SBP was not funded by Ioffl, even tho the message is roughly the same. It was funded by Esat. Its what we want. Yes, its motivated by profit, but essentially were on the same side.

At the moment there are two pre-paid offers on the table. If you hold a grudge against esat, go with UTV (i probably would go with them, and i didnt even get the letter). Vote with your feet, but dont demonise them when they are not the real enemy in this situation.

Personally, i hope that Xians view is the view of the commitee. It would be downright ludicrous to work against esat.

De Rebel

I'm with Xian on this one. Not a lot of point in beating Esat.

The one point I would argue is his description of ESAT as a heavyweight. Having dealt with the organisation in a professional capacity over the years there were only two aspects of that organisation that ever came across as heavyweight: its former Cheif Executive and its heavy hitting Sales and Marketing Departments - some of the biggest and fastest mouths (and admittedly most effective) in the country worked in the place. In most other aspects of its business it just never reached the same league as Eircom, (not that any commercial organisation could be expected to match such a bloated behemoth)

I'm not sure that beating Eircom achieves a lot either. Its a private company and O'Reilly seems to have a clear objective. Cut costs, maximise profit and offload it again in a few years. Us whinging at the edges will be treated like muck on his rugby boots.

The place where a change can be initiated is in the political arena. But what is the prospect of “Our Leader” tackling an O'Reilly led Eircom and risking the wrath of a backlash from his Media wing (aka delightfully titled "Independent" Group).

Face it: BT/ESAT is a private company, owned by shareholders who want to make a profit. Altruistic actions such as providing you and me with FRAICO/Broadband don't figure in the Company's Articles. The same goes for Eircom. Its reason detre is simple: to make maximum profits for its owners. Any other activity is secondary. Wake up people, this is not the Dept. of P&T, BTE, TE, or any of its previous public-service incarnations. These are private companies out to make money. Period.

If we want something else, its up to us and "our leaders" to get it. The Government must decide what infrastructure/services/products are needed and then set about putting them in place. Sadly, there appears little chance………

In the meantime, beating BT/Esat and even Eircom is at the very best quite pointless, and may serve to kill off what little initiative those organisations actually contain.

And in case anyone wants to know my motives, I work as a consultant. I use land-lines and mobile phones, fax, the web and e-mail. It takes me two days fee-income per month (out of 20-23 working days) to pay my communications bills. I really really resent that. Unfortunatly I have no alternative. And switching between the current providers is a tweedle-dum-tweedle dee waste of time and effort.

Dangger

This issue is something that I have been wrestling with for some time and for the record I share Xian’s views.

I am the person with the most contact and face time with people at various levels within EsatBT from the CEO and Regulatory Affairs staff through to the Internet development unit. I find their willingness to actually meet with IOFFL, keep us up to date and even seek our opinion in light of the continued hard line taken by the majority on the boards, in relation to their past behaviour, admirable and it’s something I am most grateful for.

Originally posted by DonegalMan

I gave them credit for being the most innovative telco in Ireland when they originally launched SNL but that was what, 5 or 6 years ago? What have they done since to move things forward ?

Since Esat became EsatBT they have focused on turning themselves around, as expected and required. Now with restructuring underway and in some areas complete we have seen a public commitment to obtaining FRIACO.

They have emphasised FRIACO’s importance for growing Ireland’s penetration figures and as an important element in broadband take up for the Internet uninitiated. Over and over again they are calling for it publicly, in the press and at debates (most recently First Tuesdays Broadband discussion) and within the government. At the same time they are going through the regulatory hoops they must navigate to have a wholesale product released by Eircom. The ODTR attend both sets of bi-lateral negotiations between Eircom and EsatBT as well as between Eircom and Nevada Tele.com.

Originally posted by DonegalMan

The emphasis is on "former chairman", Xian. When I was Chairman, I had to quite often hold back my personal feelings in the better interest of the organisation, now I no longer have to do that.

It is a balancing act. We have the responsibility to attend these meetings and represent the despair and anger felt by our members but at the same time we have always brought avenues to pursue to the table. There is nothing to gain from going in and exploding.

Originally posted by DonegalMan

Whilst the reasons for them curtailing the SNL service were understandable, the way they went about it was totally unforgiveable - for a company of their size and with their marketing/PR resources, this was an unbelievable shambles.

It was, no doubt about it. And the follow up (discount cards) was even insulting! But the new management have commented to us on the errors made and whilst it obviously will not be forgotten by the collective memory of this board, I see no gain to keep referring back to it in our discussions with them and point the finger. We are dealing with the new management who have admitted publicly (during the press launch for NetSmart when quired by a journalist about the “No Limits fiasco”) that it was a grave error and poorly handled. I for one believe them when they say they won’t make that mistake again – how could they?!

Originally posted by DonegalMan

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe what is happening is the start of a new phase for Esat - I'm delighted to see them introducing these new services but they seem very half-hearted about it to me. In the interests of this country as a whole, I desperately hope I am wrong, but I am a long way from being convinced yet.

Yes I believe it is a new phase for Esat and Internet access in general in Ireland. There are two companies negotiating for FRIACO, two companies with partial flat rate out (okay so we are back up to 1999 standards anyway ) with a third on the way. Over the coming months we are set to see a further 40 exchanges ADSL enabled by Esat. And they continue to speak out for the need to FRIACO whilst actually acting on it this time. The ODTR are more closely in on the talks to.

I agree with you that the marketing of flat rate needs to be more aggressive to actually go about growing the penetration figures. Personally I feel that the general population is lacking in a grasp of Internet use which cannot be solely attributed to its cost though.

Originally posted by DonegalMan

In terms of "scuppering the work of IOFFL", I don't accept that. In the early days of IOFFL there were two broad 'camps' - those who thought IOFFL should stay completely clear of Esat and those who thought we should work closely with them; I was one of the latter and fought very hard to get this policy adopted. I can't see that it achieved anything of real value so I see nothing harmful to IOFFL in me or anyone else now stating our frank views of ESAT.

It achieved very little with the previous management. The most important thing it did do though, was obtain a key to a meeting with the new management. As I think you can tell I am in the second camp. I see nothing to be gained from self-imposed isolation.

We have to remember that as much as we like to overlook the fact, most people using this forum are Internet savvy and aware of its potential. As the penetration figures show and as ISP’s stats show, the majority of Irish users are short session users condition by an altered perception of what the Internet actually is as a result of amongst other things being ripped of for using it. I feel IOFFL need to be seen to support companies and groups in their call to achieve affordable Internet access to ensure that the “lack of demand” argument can be obliterated. The more that shout with us the better.

David Long
Chairman IOFFL

spongebob

Leadership is no bad thing, especially considering that ESAT created this board in the first place through their incompetence.

I was not one of the SNL dumpees. I have no axe to grind with ESAT unlike many here who have very strong and totally justifiable views on them.

You were absloutely right to start a perspective thread. Now if ESAT could be persuaded to help the Boards community with some banners it would show that they are big enough to support free speech....as were NTL recently ...cough ahem!

Its called goodwill.

M

MDR

*ray pokes hornets nest*

I completely backup what Xian(Chris) has been saying, althought me wonders why he choose now to explode all over the boards

Our common objective is the realisation of flat-rate internet and affordable broadband in Ireland, it is not to choose friends. To be honest I hold my breath on behalf of UTVIP, it can't be very long before they do something to piss the membership off, and become as vilified as the rest.

Perhaps I am being too harsh, afterall I never suffered the injustice or indignity of the by now infamous 'No Limits' Letter. As an organisation the responsibility is upon us, as Dave said "We have the responsibility to attend these meetings and represent the despair and anger felt by our members but at the same time we have always brought avenues to pursue to the table"

The fact remains, that to achieve our common objectives IOFFL as entity must negociate with these telco's that have wronged our members and in some case continue to do so. It is not a desireable situation but it is the one we have inherited.

Chorus, Esat BT and etc aren't perfect, but perhaps our bad expierences with these companies are distracting us from the principle source of the problem ... the incumbent.

ihatemushrooms

Just fo rthe record if you check postings, Esat BT launched NetSmart before UTVip that is fact.

They had then to revise their offer but the move was proactive initially and then became reactive. Fact

UTVip were aware of what Esat BT were doing and they came out with a counter offer.

An open forum is great but the points being made must remain factual.

tks

LoBo

Originally posted by ihatemushrooms
Just fo rthe record if you check postings, Esat BT launched NetSmart before UTVip that is fact.

They had then to revise their offer but the move was proactive initially and then became reactive. Fact

UTVip were aware of what Esat BT were doing and they came out with a counter offer.

An open forum is great but the points being made must remain factual.

tks

The way I see it, esatBT were about to launch a product that would have meant little savings to an internet user like me, and that was a very poor imitation of flat rate. Then UTVi launched what is much closer to offpeak flat rate, and esatBT changed their offer to give more hours for the same price.
Clearly, esatBT can make revenue from the new offer or they wouldn't launch it at all. So their first offer just had fatter profit margins. IMO, esat have a LOT of work to do to make up the ground lost with their actions in the last few years. I would love to see them do it but I'm certainly not going to just forgive and forget without good reason.

dahamsta

[ Let's be honest, this thread is aimed mainly at me, so you'll have to excuse me if I jump off the IrelandOffline lovebus and avert my eyes from the wee orgy that's going on. Put that away please sir, you'll have someone's eye out. ]

It's funny in a way, a year ago I would have dived straight in and replied to this with a big feckoff post, listing the horrendous atrocities committed against me and others one by one, exactly why they were unjust, and action that should be taken to correct them. Last night, though, I saw it about ten and said to myself, "neah, bugger it, I'll let it lie until tomorrow". When I look at it again this morning, I see I was right, and in fact I'm surprised Martin deemed it worthy of a response addressing Christian's points directly. I certainly don't. I hope I'm not maturing, that would be an atrocity in and of itself.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not going to defend my commentary on this issue to you or anyone else Christian, because I've been careful to explain every single point as I went along. I did this explicitly because I know that this is a contentious issue -- I've been tackled before, I knew I was going to be tackled again, and I didn't want to repeat myself. So I'm not surprised to hear this, although I am surprised I'm hearing it from you, considering that I'm pretty sure you of all people actually read my posts. Obviously you've missed something when reviewing it in your head, so all I can do is suggest that you try reading them again.

This of course excludes posts that address personal issues such as the debt collection agency incident. I have just as much right to vent about this type of thing as any other user, but of course when I was PRO of IrelandOffline I was precluded from commenting in the direct manner I delight in today. As you know, that was one of the reasons I finally left IrelandOffline -- not the primary one, but an important one nonetheless. I don't feel the need to explicitly separate personal and general commentary any more, I luxuriate in leaving that as an exercise to the reader. It's an exercise you're more than capable of.

All that being said, I'm pretty sure that you know my current status via your colleagues; I'm pretty sure that because of that you know I'm no longer in a position to defend myself here in the way I'd like; and I'm pretty sure that I know you well enough to conclude that there's no direct maliciousness in your commentary. Knowing your colleagues as well as I do, I'm not 100% convinced that there isn't maliciousness at work from some quarter, however I've always said that one of the reasons I'll never be a politician is that I don't like politics, and this is just one more occasion where I'm not willing to play the game.

Therefore I believe I'll carry on as normal, as if I simply haven't seen this farcical attempt to stem my right to express myself via political means, engineered by... whoever. If you don't like it, well, I'm afraid you'll have to deal with that as you see fit.

adam

dahamsta

Just fo rthe record if you check postings, Esat BT launched NetSmart before UTVip that is fact.

It's no such thing. If you review the events correctly, you'll find that details about Esat BT's NetSmart product were leaked a week before the UTVip was launched, however it wasnt actually launched until a week after UTVip. It's all on the forums in black and white. Well, black and grey.

adam

timod

Up to a few weeks ago, I really had no time for Esat. They really did shoot themselves in the foot with that letter, and being one of the recipients I was quite mad.

I know that the NetSmart product was basically to counteract UTV.

...But recent reports, and especially the ad in the Sunday Business Post (which wasn't even selling a product) have softened my approach, and I really do think that they are starting to look sensibly at the issue.

I really do wish them every success in negotiations with the ODTR and Eircom.

drjolt

Personally, I care about results, not advertising. Being an EsatBT customer has resulted in enough hassle that I will never again give their products the slightest consideration.

Dustaz

Originally posted by LoBo
The way I see it, esatBT were about to launch a product that would have meant little savings to an internet user like me, and that was a very poor imitation of flat rate. Then UTVi launched what is much closer to offpeak flat rate, and esatBT changed their offer to give more hours for the same price.

And whats your point? This sort of thing goes on in every walk of life. This is what competion does to the market. Look at the supermarkets, they are constatly revising offers in comparison with rivals.

Dont think for a second that UTV are bending over backwards adjusting thier offer for the good of the general public. They are doing it to take customers away from esat. Its just that theyre much better at it than Esat are.

Dustaz

Originally posted by drjolt
Personally, I care about results, not advertising. Being an EsatBT customer has resulted in enough hassle that I will never again give their products the slightest consideration.

Never say never. If they offered you dsl for €20 per month, would you turn them down?

drjolt

In a heartbeat.

Dustaz

DrJolt, you would turn them down and continue to let Eircom extort you?
If it was a business you were running, you would continue to lose money because of it?

I find that quite strange. Ive had issues with esat, but none that would elevate them to the level of greed, incompetance and downright dishonesty of Eircom.

drjolt

I'd simply wait for EsatBT to flush out a third entrant in the market. In the dialup market, this has been UTVi. In my experience the hidden costs of dealing with EsatBT have been higher than with Eircom or UTVip

Andor

In a heartbeat.

hmmm.... I recieved 'the letter' and was literally RAGING for an entire 2 days afterwards, but i still wouldn't turn down an offer like that, even if it is hypothetical. (damnit!)

Begrudgery has no place in dealing with a large business, since a business , unlike a person, changes constantly.

Competition is the spice of business - UTVip may give us a fair share of let downs over the next few years, but as when ESAT first started up, they will breath new life into the provision of competetive internet access.

My point being forgive, forget and support the fairest price.*


* unless its eircom (sorry Dustaz :P)

SkepticOne

Originally posted by drjolt
Personally, I care about results, not advertising. Being an EsatBT customer has resulted in enough hassle that I will never again give their products the slightest consideration.

So if they eventually come out with a reasonably priced 24/7 product IrelandOffline will still have failed in its goals because they are the wrong company and you don't want to do business with them? Does it matter which company delivers the results?

BTW, I have no idea which company will eventually deliver flat rate. This depends on FRIACO and subsequent competition. We don't even have FRIACO yet.

drjolt

Originally posted by Andor
My point being forgive, forget and support the fairest price.

Put simply, my point is that the price of doing business with a company can be higher than the price of the service you buy from them.

dahamsta

Never say never. If they offered you dsl for €20 per month, would you turn them down?

This isn't a philosophy forum Dusty. That's like asking me if I'd fly Ryanair for a million quid -- the answer is of course 'yes', but what's the point in asking? Let's stick with reality. The reality is that if Esat were offering us DSL for €20 a month, everyone else will be offering it for between €18 and €22. I'll take the one I trust, even if it's more expensive. That won't be Esat, at least right now, or into the near future. Maybe next year if they continue the way we're going now.

This isn't about vendetta's, whether Christian like to believe it or not. It's about trust.

adam

drjolt

Originally posted by SkepticOne
So if they eventually come out with a reasonably priced 24/7 product IrelandOffline will still have failed in its goals because they are the wrong company and you don't want to do business with them? Does it matter which company delivers the results?

BTW, I have no idea which company will eventually deliver flat rate. This depends on FRIACO and subsequent competition. We don't even have FRIACO yet.

My understanding had been that IO was focussed on promoting an environment in which multiple competing offerings existed. If this is the case, I don't see why io would consider its goals achieved until more than one company was offering flat rate dialup. I think I may have misunderstood the IO position however, since you seem to be talking about just the one company delivering flat rate dialup, which just sounds like another monopoly on different terms to me.