Fox Hunting

logic1

Originally posted by Jak



I disagree Logic. When I was young, initially I wanted nothing to do with the hunting and was strongly against it. However my views changed, I went to a few shoots and I found it all perfectly acceptable. I enjoy shooting, but more, I was inclined to test myself and see if I would be willing to kill animals for food. Would I accept the truth behind the plastic film that wraps our food in stores?

JAK.

I wasn't referring to small numbers of individuals Jak but to both parties as a whole. They're views are definately not going to be massively overhauled as a result of campaigning by either side. Although I believe it is possible to influence the views of third parties.

Originally posted by The Saint

I also think deer hunting and hare coursing are barbaric and we should not be killing off our natural wildlife

Deer hunting is very well regulated in Ireland. Red deer are protected in Kerry where their numbers are high and many other counties. To shoot fallow or sica (who are *not* native to Ireland) you usually have to take a lease out on a forestry. The lease entitles you to cull a certain number of deer from that wood ever year and each deer you shoot is tagged.

Basically the forestry need to cull a certain amount of deer from each forestry every year and sell the rights to normal people to shoot these deer. Hunting deer with dogs hasn't taken place afaik for a long time. I have been hunting deer with 16 years and haven't once heard, directly, of people hunting deer with dogs.

To get a deer licence in the first place you have to own a lease of have permission from a number of farmers to the shooting rights on their land. trust me this isn't easy.

.logic.

netwhizkid

Hi,
I think fox-hunting is great there is not enogh of it been done, actually, when i was down on my brother-inlaws farm last year, i woke up one morning we walked out with his 6 year son and 4 year old daughter to feed their pet lambs, very quickly i told the kids to come inside and we would have a little talk, one of their lambs was killed by the fox and the other was dying, my brother-inlaw put him down, the kid were devasted, and yet people thinks that fox-hunting should be banned, if i were a T.D with power i would give a subsidy for every fox killed, until they were extinct here, and they would be no loss,

Regards netwhizkid

logic1

Originally posted by netwhizkid
Hi,
I think fox-hunting is great

Regards netwhizkid

Well said

Actually there used be a bounty on foxes.. bring in the tail you get the cash. Alas no more

.logic.

Typedef

Originally posted by netwhizkid
I think fox-hunting is great there is not enogh of it been done, actually, when i was down on my brother-inlaws farm last year, i woke up one morning we walked out with his 6 year son and 4 year old daughter to feed their pet lambs, very quickly i told the kids to come inside and we would have a little talk, one of their lambs was killed by the fox and the other was dying, my brother-inlaw put him down, the kid were devasted, and yet people thinks that fox-hunting should be banned

Yes and in nature predators kill things, that's how they survive.
Anecdote (x) doesn't really convince me that foxes should be wiped out by hunting parties.
Just because some lamb got killed by a fox once doesn't in fact give someone the right to annihilate a species (thank god).

if i were a T.D with power i would give a subsidy for every fox killed, until they were extinct here, and they would be no loss,
Regards netwhizkid

I'm assuming you are trolling now.

The Saint

netwhizkid, why would you want to kill every fox in the country? Just coz one killed a cute little lamb doesnt mean you can wipe out a species. It was a very uneducated statement. People seem to think that if something is not benificial to them that it shouldnt exist. Packs of domesticated dogs kill more sheep and lambs so do you think we should wipe those out too. Why not cement over the country side so nothing can live there?

The Saint

I have set up a poll to get a good idea of where opinions lie on this. Check it out and vote.

The Corinthian

Let’s assume that the arguments of tradition and pest control are invalid. As we’re discussing foxhunting, our nature as omnivores doesn’t come into it - unless someone wants to tell me that Renard a la Crème is a delicacy (and knowing the French it could well be). That leaves us with sport. Blood sport, using an animal of limited intellect, yet capable of feeling pain and (instinctive) emotion as prey, to be exact.

Foxhunts, as with any other blood sports, are tremendously enjoyable. That’s probably because humans are largely predators. Is it wrong? Depends on the rights you ascribe to foxes and other non-humans. Some may argue that we should empathise with animals as we would with each other (no bestiality jokes, please!). And this empathy felt for animals, that goes to the point where we will spend more on our pets, pro capita, than our children, is largely a cultural fetish of the English speaking world.

Of course we could curb this murderous instinct. Unfortunately, this is all too often the argument of those who need to take supplements with their vegan diets to simply live.

As such it seems too selective a viewpoint for reasons that are cultural rather than logical. Too self-indulgent.

Manach

Foxes are vermin - hunting is a good a way as any to cull their numbers.
Personally I feel their descruction by hounds just, given that is exactly how they leave their victims when they break into poultry houses.
I live in the country, and I believe this is a sentiment commonly shared by this community.

DeVore

I would remind people that while this thread seems to be a robust to-and-fro of points, that civility is crucial.

Saboteur, I understand you feel strongly about your views but I cant comprehend how you can wilfully injure horses and indeed *people* in the name of Animal Right Campaigning. Its rather like the fire-bombers of abortion clinics and assassination of doctors who perform abortions. Mindboggling.

Violence begets violence and even violence against property inspires terror in many people other then just the hunters...

Right or wrong, as Typedef says, noone should be above the law. Campaign for the law to be changed if you like but taking it into your own hands is disgraceful.

DeV.

johnKarma

I've never been involved in a Fox Hunt, nor have I any inclination to take part in one. The thought of chasing a helpless fox, then observing hounds tear it to shreds sickens me. I'd rather not sate any latent predatorial instincts I may have in such a barbaric way, thank you very much.

But just because something makes me feel uncomfortable, does that give me the right to impose my view on the rest of the populace and deny them their pleasure?

Why should we ban fox hunting? Should animals have rights? The consensus is that it's justifiable to kill animals for food. But, as vegans and vegetarians like to point out, we don't actually need them for food any more. So why is it OK to kill them but not to torture them? Surely the taking of life is the ultimate crime.

In order to justify a ban on "cruelty to animals" it is necessary to employ various "tortured distinctions" like those mooted above.

I agree with Corinthian. Why should one portion of the population impose its view on the other just to make itself feel better?

Typedef

Originally posted by johnKarma
Why should we ban fox hunting? Should animals have rights?

Yes they should and why? Because it is actually morally wrong to kill an animal simply for the pleasure of doing so. Normally that creature will die in a most likely horrible way, so as to enhance the thrill of the kill and I for one see no sense nor give no credo to arbitrarily inflicting pain and suffering on an innocent purely for the thrill one derives in doing so. Such behaviour is in fact in my opinion, quite sadistic and quite sick.

So why is it OK to kill them but not to torture them? Surely the taking of life is the ultimate crime.

Presumption is the mother of all <&$% ups, no I would have to say that in many ways it is the natural order of things for one creature to feed off of another creature for survival and why not, that is the law of the jungle? As sentient creatures though it is abasing to enjoy watching an animal suffer and in my opinion a fox being torn to shreds by a pack of dogs will suffer as that happens.

In order to justify a ban on "cruelty to animals" it is necessary to employ various "tortured distinctions" like those mooted above.

I feel quite comfortable in the assertion that chasing a fox with a pack of dogs around the country side for kilometers/miles and allow the pack of dogs rip the fox to shreds constitutes cruelty and torture and I don't really think that is a bleeding heart liberal stance on that either.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Typedef
Because it is actually morally wrong to kill an animal simply for the pleasure of doing so.

Is it?

That a little presumptuous given it is what we’re debating here in the first place. You're making a few sweeping moral assumptions here and then looking to impose them upon a community I assume you're not even a member of.

Typedef

Legally speaking if you kill a dog for example for fun, you will get into trouble.

Thus if you were to extract a 'moral' ethic from such a law/practice it wouldn't be unreasonable to derive a principal implied by such laws that killing animals for fun is in fact wrong.

Jak

Well legally speaking it is not illegal to kill many animals for sport. So by your logic it must be morally acceptable.

The foundations of law do not always stem from moral grounds.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Typedef
Thus if you were to extract a 'moral' ethic from such a law/practice it wouldn't be unreasonable to derive a principal implied by such laws that killing animals for fun is in fact wrong.

Two words: Nuremberg Laws.

Typedef

Can you really define fox hunting as a sport?

It's not recognised by any Olympic comitee as far as I am aware.

Similarly either shooting birds is a sport or something you do for food. Which is it? I ask because it makes an important difference between a sport and a 'method' of killing the food you eat.

Jak

Can you really define fox hunting as a sport? It's not recognised by any Olympic comitee as far as I am aware.

Don't be ridiculous. There are countless sports and activities not recognised by the IOC. I'm not even going to begin citing examples - there are simply too many.

Similarly either shooting birds is a sport or something you do for food. Which is it? I ask because it makes an important difference between a sport and a 'method' of killing the food you eat.

No it is not a case of either/or. We can and do partake in the sport for both reasons.

I know people who enjoy driving places. It gets them somewhere but they also enjoy the process of getting there.

I like the food and I enjoy killing it.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Typedef
Can you really define fox hunting as a sport?

It's not recognised by any Olympic comitee as far as I am aware.

Neither are a lot of other sports - Hurling, Gaelic Football, women's hot oil wrestling...

Similarly either shooting birds is a sport or something you do for food. Which is it? I ask because it makes an important difference between a sport and a 'method' of killing the food you eat.

Since when? Who put you on an Olympic commitee? Where do you think many sports come from, but from war and hunting? Marksmanship, for example (and that is recognised by a Olympic commitee or two ) is both a sport and a 'method' of killing the food you eat.

Keeks

I have major problems with threads like this because as logic1 one stated there is no middle ground that both sides can come to an agreement on. It’s just as well that no one has really come out with a pro Fox hunting argument.

There was talk there for a while of the psychological effect hunting has on foxes. Somehow I don’t think it has much. Call it what you like (law of the jungle, survival of the fittest etc.) but I see nothing unnatural in a group of larger animals chasing a smaller animal. While the smaller animal might not expect it, it will accept it as a part of its day-to-day life. It won’t have the same psychological effect as, lets say, a group of lads chasing a women down Grafton Street at 4 in the morning.

Right now, down to the nitty gritty. Before I let this thread go any further, lets clear up a few things.

1. I don’t care whether you think it’s a sport or not. We’re not here to debate whether or not it should be allowed in the next Olympics or not. It would be a better idea to discuss the reason for fox hunting. Is it for fun or profit, not what type of activity it is.
2. Can we leave the whole shooting thing out if this thread? It’s a different topic with different principles.
3. There is a lot of to and fro going on in this thread. Claim on counter claim by both sides. Typedef has already mentioned this. There are very little facts being laid out here in the arguments. Substantiate your claims. I don’t want to see anymore ‘I heard it from my mothers friends sister cousins dog that it was true’ type statements. If you weren’t there first hand or have a web link or attachment then don’t print it. I am a very skeptical person by nature, and I need proof before I will believe anything.

Now with all that out of the way, let me try and get this thread back on topic. Since I metioned the a severe lack of facts on this subject, does anyone have any (/me looks at Saboteur for the answer since he it the Animal rights Guru). Does everyone know what Foxhunting is? What it involves? How are the dogs treated? The horses? How many foxes are killed each year? How many escape? Do they let the ones that hide in their dens escape or hunt the out? Do they blood the hounds? Are the foxes pre-caught or ones that were always free?

As of yet no one has made a really convincing argument for the banning of foxhunting.

Jak

Originally posted by Keeks
I have major problems with threads like this because as logic1 one stated there is no middle ground that both sides can come to an agreement on.

There is some middle ground - muzzles on dogs and acceptance of the free range nature of hunted animals being preferable to industrialised food production were two areas I noted.

Can we leave the whole shooting thing out if this thread? It’s a different topic with different principles.

Shooting was relevant to the ban on fox hunting as you can be assured if Fox hunting is banned, shooting will be next on the agenda. In addition there are a number of distinct similarities between both activities.

There is a lot of to and fro going on in this thread. Claim on counter claim by both sides. Typedef has already mentioned this. There are very little facts being laid out here in the arguments. Substantiate your claims. I don’t want to see anymore ‘I heard it from my mothers friends sister cousins dog that it was true’ type statements. If you weren’t there first hand or have a web link or attachment then don’t print it. I am a very skeptical person by nature, and I need proof before I will believe anything.

Good for you. But given that many people become involved in these discussions as a passing lunch time interest I think you will be lucky to find people willing to build a legally robust case for your perusal. These are discussion boards, nothing more.

For people involved in these areas on either side, many things are already known and accepted and thus we will refer to them - without submitting a video diary of an example event alongside it - if proof is needed, or something is heavily disputed then yes - ask for a little evidence by all means.

Now with all that out of the way, let me try and get this thread back on topic. Since I metioned the a severe lack of facts on this subject, does anyone have any (/me looks at Saboteur for the answer since he it the Animal rights Guru). Does everyone know what Foxhunting is? What it involves? How are the dogs treated? The horses? How many foxes are killed each year? How many escape? Do they let the ones that hide in their dens escape or hunt the out? Do they blood the hounds? Are the foxes pre-caught or ones that were always free?

Yes, I would wager most eveybody who was heavily involved in this thread understands what Foxhunting is and hence there was no need to draw a diagram. Your questions are a little pointless in the sense that Foxhunting practices (no more than any hunting clubs) do vary and given your earlier comment about substantiating claims nobody will be able to provide you with undisputed figures.

I would say though that not every hunt ends the same way and generally hunters would claim that it is rare the animal is caught and killed (better press), while antis would dispute this. The numbers are not the key issue at this point - as I am sure both sides will agree. It is about the right to engage in the activity or not. I would guess even 1 would be too many for the anti community, which is fair enough.

As regards the treatment of the horses and dogs ... again from experience, in any form of hunting club they are generally treated with exceptional care, moreso than most regular domestic pets. They are well fed, well groomed and cared for - there is usually a great deal of pride involved with this.

In any case, you got here a little late. I think we are pretty much done.

shay halley

Well lads
I am an avid fox hunting supporter and sometimes i become frustrated with what appears on some of these sites. First i read in someone's comment above that people become highly strung over thewir undying love for animals. I just have the one question: remember that farm in england that had some kind of deal on with an animal testing centre and these animal lovers in their disgust dug up the owner of this farms mother. now coming to my question how can ye call fox-hunters barbaric?
Looking forward for the reply
Shay

seamus

Please don't dig up old threads.

For the record, you'll find that actions such as the one you mention by extremist PETA members tend to be contrary to the morals of most animal rights supporters. It's a but like pro-lifers who seem to think that it's OK to kill health workers :rolleyes:

If you want to talk about it, there's a recent thread (in Humanities I think) about PETA.