Fox Hunting

The Saint

I was wondering what peoples opinion is on fox hunting in light of the happenings in the UK, with people saying they will break the law and continue to hunt if fox hunting is banned.
What do ye think of fox hunting?

Typedef

Originally posted by The Saint
I was wondering what peoples opinion is on fox hunting in light of the happenings in the UK, with people saying they will break the law and continue to hunt if fox hunting is banned.
What do ye think of fox hunting?

Basically if you break the law and get caught you get punished.
I for one most certainly do not support nor condone the hunting of animals for sport.

What is disgusting is that fox hunting is still legal in Ireland apparently.

http://www.equestrianvacations.com/html/ireland10.html

The first hit on google for "fox hunting Ireland".
http://www.equestrianvacations.com/html/ireland10.html

In fact I'm going to mail this company and see what it has to say for itself.

info@xcintl.com

Hello.

Please tell me how one goes about participating in a fox hunt?
I have seen it advertised on your web site and I was curious as to the detials of the same.

Please be advised this pertains to a discussion on fox hunting on a public forum

Regards.

$ cat /home/wintermute/.3jane/.plan
to take over the world...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1124343.stm

Irony of ironies though that the Conservatives in the UK the supposed party of 'law and order' in the case of the posted link seem to be suggesting that a ban would be unenforceable.

This all seems a little unreal for a supposedly civilised society to be engaging in.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/422632.stm

Really it is sickening people hunting animals for sport.
I wonder if there is anyone who participates in these kinds of 'sports' who is prepaired to defend them here?

Typedef

Actually.

I wasn't aware this country was such a damned backward and barbaric place.

http://www.connemara-trails.com/foxhunting.html

The Saint

Yes, it would be interesting to see if anyone posts a view in support of fox hunting. I myself went to school (all those years ago) in the country and was surprised to realise that most of my friends and schoolmates supported and practised fox hunting.

seamus

Originally posted by The Saint
Yes, it would be interesting to see if anyone posts a view in support of fox hunting. I myself went to school (all those years ago) in the country and was surprised to realise that most of my friends and schoolmates supported and practised fox hunting.

There was a thread on Humanities (I think) a while back, where quite a few people supported it, and was very interesting. Have a search for it and have a read, but don't drag it back up by adding your post to it. Chances are, the same people will reply to this thread. Sick sick sick....:(

The Saint

I actually wanted to start a poll when I started this thread but I couldnt figure out how. Could someone please enlighten me? Forgive my ignorance but I'm pretty new to this.

Jak

Personally I do not support Fox Hunting, but neither does it offend me to the degree where I would protest against it.

If you are looking for barbarism you need look no further than a case a few years back in Ireland where a group of activists beat an elderly game keeper on an estate into hospital when he tried to stop them smashing up the cars of those on a hunt.

Although Fox hunting has no appeal for me, I have, do and will continue to shoot pheasant, duck etc. each year during season.

The vast majority of anti campaigners are very poorly educated with regard to what they are protesting against and would quite happily tear something down to move onto another little cause without considering the implications of their actions.

I am sure many of you will disagree with me, so I will wait and fill in the blanks as comments come.

Let's keep it civil though.

JAK.

seamus

Originally posted by Jak
The vast majority of anti campaigners are very poorly educated with regard to what they are protesting against and would quite happily tear something down to move onto another little cause without considering the implications of their actions.

While I appreciate your objective stance, there are no 'implications' to banning foxhunting. The arguments the hunters use are:
'Tradition' - Fúck tradition. Traditional values are changed and removed all the time as society and morality evolves. This is no different. Are they still angry that women are no longer as 'traditional' as they used to be?
'Pest Control' - Again, crap. Foxhunting is a waste of resources, and very small numbers of foxes are actually removed through foxhunting. There are far more efficient, non-lethal ways to control fox populations.

I do accept your argument about the hypocritical nature of some protests, though. The issue can get people very emotionally charged, and they themselves become just as barbaric as the hunters. Although, there are plenty of situations where I'd happily value animal life over human life, even my own.

The Saint

Hey Jak,
I do not have much trouble with people hunting if their quarry is intended to be eaten as I assume you do. But with fox hunting a small dog is persued by a pack of large dogs and torn to shreads, all in the name of fun. I am totally against this as it is barbaric and only feeds the blood thirsty appitite of people who are supposed to be "Ladies and Gentlemen" They argue that it is their culture and heritage but if I rip my pet dog to pieces in my home for my entertainment I would be arrested and condemned.

Venom

The only animals that take part in fox hunting are the ones who ride the horse's.

Jak

Well I am poorly placed to make informed comments on Fox hunting as I have never been anything more than a passer by to such a hunt.

As I said, I neither support nor oppose it. A pack of dogs running loose will kill animals without human interference - these hunts are primarily about the chase, the humans are for the most part second place spectators to a natural event.

Animals contrary to what some would have you believe, DO kill for pleasure - they are not simply noble survivalists. I can provide examples if you need.

Despite this, yet other arguments suggest that even though the fox rarely dies nowadays, the prolonged terror is inhumane. Wild animals lives are filled with terror - deers wet themselves when anything bigger than a rabbit approaches them - it is just nature.

Now while it may be somewhat more traumatic granted for the fox is it any more terrible than the terror suffered by animals reared for slaughter. They must suffer similar terror when brought to the slaughter house and are queued for a nail in the head.

In any case my objection is to an outright ban rather than a reform of the laws and allowances for such a practice. This stance is born of a well founded fear that as soon as Fox hunting is outlawed the 'antis' will move on game shooting - something I do enjoy and will certainly defend.

I'm a little pressed with work at the moment so I don't really have time to put down my defence of game shooting right now.

Suffice to say the people involved with game shooting do a phenomenal amount of work in providing care and support for many game birds and animals. Without this work these animals would hardly survive on our shores. The antis would likely not have the inclination nor the ability (and certainly not the funds) to preserve the environment and upkeep of these animals - hence my comment regarding tearing something down without understanding.

Will have to get back to this - look forward to your comments.

JAK.

Saboteur

In reply to what Jak said:

""If you are looking for barbarism you need look no further than a case a few years back in Ireland where a group of activists beat an elderly game keeper on an estate into hospital when he tried to stop them smashing up the cars of those on a hunt.""

Where did you get your information on this? I've been an Animal Rights Activist for many years in this country and I know for a fact that this is a load of crap.

Jak also said:

""Suffice to say the people involved with game shooting do a phenomenal amount of work in providing care and support for many game birds and animals. Without this work these animals would hardly survive on our shores. The antis would likely not have the inclination nor the ability (and certainly not the funds) to preserve the environment and upkeep of these animals - hence my comment regarding tearing something down without understanding.""

Why should any bird be kept in pens for months previous to the Shooting season, only to be released for a short period of time, where Beaters scare them in to flying and to end their short lives being shot for the sake of what is considered by some as a sport? I have rescued many wild birds from pens and Shoots that now live in areas where they are free from being shot for fun. I have also rescued foxes and hares from hunts and coursing, and have rehomed them away from areas where they can't be hunted.

As far as "people involved with game shooting doing a phenomenal amount of work in providing care and support for many game birds and animals" is concerned.... these people don't give a **** about wildlife. All they are concerned about is financial gain. The same goes for Fox Hunting. This has nothing to do with preserving the wildlife of the country. It all boils down to money. If there was no money to be made out of this barbaric so called sport, then it wouldn't be happening. As for the Followers who travel around the roads in their cars, all they are are brown nosers. As pathetic as the Horse-riders are, the Followers are even worse.

The majority of Irish people will continue to be opposed to Fox-Hunting, but talking about it isn't going to solve anything. The only people that are saving the lives of these animals are the ones that are Activists. There's no point in sitting on the fence and talking about it...Do something. Become a Hunt Saboteur. Write off to your local TD. Be prepared to stand up for what you believe in. And stop just talking about it. Words mean nothing, actions mean everything.

Jak

A load of crap eh? The account came from 2 personal sources and the details were that it was at a coursing meet in Cork where a group of activists were breaking windows on the cars of those who were on the hunt and did not take well to being asked to stop.

As I was not there I will not argue the point with you, I accept the possibility of misinformation, however your claim to having absolute fact that it did not take place as you are part of an animal rights group is equally questionable. Your networks are not so disciplined or structured that you would hear of every act done in the name of animal rights.

So perhaps some other examples of animal rights caring nature might be of use.

A tactic used to spoil hunts in the UK by activists which involved throwing ball bearings onto the roads to dismount riders - a lack of forethought however as many horses fell, were injured and were put down. Ask your network about this perhaps?

Jan 5th 2001 when hunting with dogs was to be outlawed in the UK - 46 Beagles were stolen from kennels in Kent. One dog alone was returned who had been crudely castrated by the activists. Search for the article if you wish to dispute this. You will find it.

The 'Stop Huntingdon Animal cruelty' in the UK have admitted members may have used incendiary devices under cars of employees of HLS (Huntingdon life sciences). Feel free to mail Greg Avery the leader for confirmation.

Activists are quite capable of such violence and there is ample evidence to support this if you would take your blinkers off.

Anyhows to move on ...

Why should any bird be kept in pens for months previous to the Shooting season, only to be released for a short period of time, where Beaters scare them in to flying and to end their short lives being shot for the sake of what is considered by some as a sport?

Good to see you have clearly researched this well. The birds are kept in large open free range enclosures as chicks to protect them from foxes and other predators. The birds are not kept penned until the day of the shoot. Once they have grown they fly freely around with the gamekeepers using feeding locations to move them. Pheasants live an average of 2-3 years, roughly half live through each season and either stay around or fly to other areas to either die out or be eaten by predators.

I have rescued many wild birds from pens and Shoots that now live in areas where they are free from being shot for fun. I have also rescued foxes and hares from hunts and coursing, and have rehomed them away from areas where they can't be hunted.

And what support do you provide for the pheasant you release? Were they full grown even? Pheasant are not indigenous to this country, they require care and management. Releasing them in some random free range environment will likely just kill them off. Nice one ...

As an aside perhaps you are also aware of the activists who freed all the mink from the mink farms in donegal over the years. Releasing a non indigenous voracious predator into the Irish countryside. An animal with no predator on this isle other than man. An animal that decimates all kinds of game birds ... I'm sure the pheasant would be very thankful for that one.

But most antis don't consider these things apparently - they are too preoccupied with gratifying themselves and their notions of heroism.

As far as "people involved with game shooting doing a phenomenal amount of work in providing care and support for many game birds and animals" is concerned.... these people don't give a **** about wildlife. All they are concerned about is financial gain. The same goes for Fox Hunting. This has nothing to do with preserving the wildlife of the country. It all boils down to money. If there was no money to be made out of this barbaric so called sport, then it wouldn't be happening

This is just absurd. The shoot I am a part of is a syndicate. It is non profit. So you may wish to rethink your well informed comment above.

People were employed to create and maintain a very large natural environment for a population of duck, pheasant, turkey and other small game birds. The environment consists of large wooded areas, open kale fields, man made lakes and protected enclosures they can fly-to to avoid predators. All the money put in and the proceeds from the sale of the meat and so on go to the maintenance of this environment. Without 'us' these animals would die out and the country side would lose as a result i feel.

The people involved are generally farmers, landscapers, foresters, vets and so on. Clearly a group whose knowledge of the environment and the animals pales in significance to your own leaflet education.

If you are looking for a real world example of what happens when such shoots disappear take a look at the grouse population in western Ireland in the 30's and 40's. The animals thrived up to the point when the big estates pulled out and now the species is bordering on extinction in this country. This is the result of no management.

talking about it isn't going to solve anything

You may learn something though.

. The only people that are saving the lives of these animals are the ones that are Activists.

You may want to rethink that in light of the above comments.

Do something. Become a Hunt Saboteur. Write off to your local TD. Be prepared to stand up for what you believe in. And stop just talking about it. Words mean nothing, actions mean everything

The call of the militant, sure isn't it a great day out for you all.

After you have taken care of hunting you can move on the predators of the animal kingdom itself perhaps.


Anyhows final point ...

The majority of the world is
not with you. Most people eat meat. I choose to kill some of the meat I eat. That is not something you can hope to change. I do not shy away from the fact that the meat we buy in shops is there at the expense of an animals life. But it does not upset me.

I am a carnivore.




edit: Fixed quote tags

Jak

Further to the above.

A good link from a non biased animal rights organisation listing acts of violence by animal rights activists.

Attacks by activists

Lovely bunch.

Typedef

I am a carnivore.

I'd venture you mean Omnivore.

Anyhow, lads keep it on topic.

Specifically Fox Hunting, the merits of shooting birds is for another thread.

Jak

I'd venture you mean Omnivore

No. I meant carnivore. More poignant and the point was to signify I eat meat. The term does not preclude the eating of vegetables and plant life - it is an indication that one is a meat eater - which again .. was the point.

Also, I would ask that you let this thread spread its wings a little. The discussion will be pointless if supporting context is taken away. What harm in letting a discussion evolve a little?

Cheers,

JAK.

Saboteur

Jak, I have no sympathy for anyone who get their property damaged when they are making money out of animal cruelty. Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty (SHAC) are doing an amazing job. Drug testing aside, why should any animal have to be tortured for the sake of Food and Household products? Why should an animal be bred or taken out of it's natural enviroment for the sake of being tested on for a profit. The workers in HLS deserve everything they get.

As for the course meeting in Cork...as I said, I have never heard of that happening. Whoever did it wasn't involved with any of the Animal Rights organisations in this country. But fair play to whoever it was. I hope they keep up the good work.

Throwing ball bearings in front of horses is totally insane. Anyone who would be prepared to get involved in this sort of behaviour, wouldn't be allowed work with any of the English or Irish Animal Rights groups that I have worked with. It definitly is not a common practice in England, so it was obviously just some arse-hole. To endanger the life of any animal is against all the rules of the Hunt Sabs, ALF or any of the other organisations.
And the dog returned castrated!! Wasn't the work of any Animal Rights organisation.

The pheasants that I've liberated are still doing fine. They are being carefully looked after. So you've nothing to worry about there.

As for the mink farm, that was idiotic. I totally agree with you about releasing a non indigenous voracious predator into the Irish countryside. Have you ever visited a mink farm and seen how many of them escape anyway. Mink are neither indigenous to Ireland or England, yet mink are increasing in numbers in both countries, which has little or no help from the Animal Rights Activists. There are far easier ways of ruining a mink farm than releasing the animals.

Need to attend a meeting. Shall carry on with this later.

Support your local ALF.

D V

To me, the idea that we still allow hunting in this day and age is just plain ridiculous. It's cruel and barbaric. And yes, there are plenty of activists who are just as bad as the hunters. While breaking car windows is nowhere near as bad as hunting, beating people up is - if and when it happens. These kinds of people just serve to bring sympathy to the hunting cause. It certainly wouldn't put anyone off it. Of course we should also remember that a small organisation calling itself the "Real Countryside Alliance" (sound familiar?) has now sprung up in the Uk advocating the use of more physical tactics.


"The vast majority of anti campaigners are very poorly educated with regard to what they are protesting against and would quite happily tear something down to move onto another little cause without considering the implications of their actions."

This is an extremely unfair comment. As I've said, there are idiots but most of the people on the anti-hunting side do actually care about the issue and cruelty does upset them. They don't just skip along to whatever "little cause" they happen to have heard about on the radio. And even so, you don't have to have a master's in Predatorial Studies to know that cruelty to animals is wrong. The same goes for rape, child abuse or even tax evasion or shoplifting.

"A pack of dogs running loose will kill animals without human interference - these hunts are primarily about the chase, the humans are for the most part second place spectators to a natural event."

There is very little, if anything, natural, about fox hunting. These packs of dogs would not be out running around the place if it wasn't for the people involved organising the whole thing.

"Animals contrary to what some would have you believe, DO kill for pleasure - they are not simply noble survivalists. I can provide examples if you need."

Please do. Not that that would actually be an excuse.

"Now while it may be somewhat more traumatic granted for the fox is it any more terrible than the terror suffered by animals reared for slaughter. They must suffer similar terror when brought to the slaughter house and are queued for a nail in the head."

I doubt you'll find many animal rights campaigners disagreeing with you on that one.

"Suffice to say the people involved with game shooting do a phenomenal amount of work in providing care and support for many game birds and animals. Without this work these animals would hardly survive on our shores"

I'm sorry, but I just find this kind of statement utterly hypocritical. Any work regarding the care and preservation of animals by those involved in the bloodsport industry is hardly done for the sake of the animals, simply for that of the people who enjoy killing them.

"Pheasant are not indigenous to this country"

Which would suggest to me that they shouldn't have been brought here in the first place.

"46 Beagles were stolen from kennels in Kent. One dog alone was returned who had been crudely castrated by the activists"

If this did happen it is completely unsupportable - but most "anti's", as you call them, would never do anything like this.

Well, that's me done for now...

Jak

As for the course meeting in Cork...as I said, I have never heard of that happening. Whoever did it wasn't involved with any of the Animal Rights organisations in this country. But fair play to whoever it was. I hope they keep up the good work.

Wasn't part of any animal rights organisation but you condone their behaviour. What is to stop you taking that next step too so?


The ball bearing incidents were not isolated events and were most certainly the work of 'hunt sabs'. I am not going to do the research for you on this one - but look it up or ask those your pals.

The castrated dog was the work of hunt sabs. Search for articles in the guardian around that time for details.

Glad to hear the pheasants are doing well. Would you care to address the other points I made - specifically here ...

The shoot I am a part of is a syndicate. It is non profit. So you may wish to rethink your well informed comment above.

People were employed to create and maintain a very large natural environment for a population of duck, pheasant, turkey and other small game birds. The environment consists of large wooded areas, open kale fields, man made lakes and protected enclosures they can fly-to to avoid predators. All the money put in and the proceeds from the sale of the meat and so on go to the maintenance of this environment. Without 'us' these animals would die out and the country side would lose as a result i feel.

The people involved are generally farmers, landscapers, foresters, vets and so on. Clearly a group whose knowledge of the environment and the animals pales in significance to your own leaflet education.

If you are looking for a real world example of what happens when such shoots disappear take a look at the grouse population in western Ireland in the 30's and 40's. The animals thrived up to the point when the big estates pulled out and now the species is bordering on extinction in this country. This is the result of no management.

Will you maintain their environment?

Jak

"Animals contrary to what some would have you believe, DO kill for pleasure - they are not simply noble survivalists. I can provide examples if you need."

Foxes or minks let loose in pens will kill everything they can if left undisturbed. They may eat one or two but simply kill the rest even though the birds pose no threat to them.

Ever see your well fed domestic cat play with an injured mouse or bird before killing it. After which it does not even eat it (or offer it to your doorstep). It is 'playing'.

Dog packs will kill sheep and lambs - yet they do not eat their kills. I have seen first hand animals killed by wild dogs - it is simply butchery.

Take a peek at national geographic sometime I am sure you will eventually find examples of animals which seem to take pleasure in the hunt and kill of their prey.

Nature itself is cruel and unfair.

Shurikan

Not a regular poster here, but i figured I'd chip in.

A problem which often occurs in debates of this nature is the insistence of a link between fox-hunting and game shooting, when in fact, they are very different issues. THere are plenty of people (myself included) who are opposed to fox-hunting and coursing with hounds, and yet have no problem with game shooting.

I consider game shooting to be on par with eating meat, (which I do) or wearing leather. it doesn't cause unnessary pain, or a prolonged death (if done correctly) and is reasonably equivalent to the treatment of animals in commercial slaughterhouses. If one has a problem with the death of any animal, then become a vegetarian (as many people are. Good for them)

Personally, I try to minimise suffering. I wear leather, because the animals are killed for meat, and it isn't a wasteful use of animals purely for vanity. In the same way, I would wear rabbit fur, if the rabbit was not snared, and the carcass was eaten, but would not wear the skin of a mink which had been reared purely for that purpose. (unless I was in an environment where it was for necessity, and not vanity) I do no eat Veal, or lobster, because it's preparation involves unneccessary cruelty, but I do eat other meats, usually organic and grain fed, because it's better for the animal and for me.

The hunting of Foxes with hounds however, I am firmly opposed to. As previously stated, it does not control the fox population in any remotely scientific or effective way. If such control is deemed necessary, have it done quickly and with a minimum of pain, as is done with the dear in phoenix park.

Also, there is the alternative of drag-hunting. I have heard the objections to this, that it is less fun due to less cunning and ingenuity on the part of the drag-man, but I do not see that as justification for the perpetuation of a "sport" which is essentially, chasing an animal and watching it die in suffering. ( I understanfd that the death of the fox is sometimes as quick as 10 seconds, however I do not concede that this time is short enough to dismiss all concerns. Also one must tak the psychological effect of the chase into account, however studies so far have proved inconclusive)

Granted, in the animal kingdom, one sees horrific acts o the part of animals, which to us seem callous and cruel. A cat playing with it's prey, doves killing a rival male, the abandonment of an old or weak buffalo by the herd, are all examples of this. However, the fact remains that we humans are *not* animals. we have conscience and morality, and the abilty to think about the consequences of our actions and to empathise with the pain of others. We know better, and should act accordingly

Shurikan

Jak

Good post Shurikan.

However, the fact remains that we humans are *not* animals. we have conscience and morality, and the abilty to think about the consequences of our actions and to empathise with the pain of others. We know better, and should act accordingly

I would maintain that we are animals - developed animals - but animals nonetheless and subjects to certain primal instincts.

Cruelty is not such an instinct - but I would argue that meat eating and hunting are. I take some pride in the fact that I do not purchase all my food from shops - that I will actually go out and take the life of an animal myself if I am willing to eat it.

Those of us who do game shoot have varying reasons for our involvement. However I have never once met a fellow shooter who took pleasure from the suffering of an animal.

The world will not become vegan. And I would fear for a society that would detach itself entirely from its rural/hunting roots to the point that people don't fully understand where the food comes from.

I do think about my actions and their consequence and I act accordingly.

Saboteur

"Dog packs will kill sheep and lambs - yet they do not eat their kills. I have seen first hand animals killed by wild dogs - it is simply butchery."

I have seen at first hand at two Hunts that I Sabbed, where the hounds got into fields with sheep and attacked them. Is this simply butchery too, or is it part of the fun of the hunt.


"The shoot I am a part of is a syndicate. It is non profit. So you may wish to rethink your well informed comment above."

Somehow I don't believe that. Someone is going to rear birds for a shoot and not make any profit out of it??? Think someone is pulling the wool over your eyes there.


"The ball bearing incidents were not isolated events and were most certainly the work of 'hunt sabs'. I am not going to do the research for you on this one - but look it up or ask those your pals."

The only time I could possibly think that someone would use this tactic is before the horses are taken out of their horse-boxes. The same way that Glass and Tacking is used before Coursing events. Pretty clever idea..thanks!! I'll be keeping it in mind for this Hunting season. But if an animal is injured because someone was stupid enough to bring them out of their horse-boxes onto the bearing, knowing that the bearings were there, then only the owner is to blame. Organisers of Hunts, Courses and any other barbaric Blood Sport events that take place, are always informed of Animal Right actions that have taken place. We want to stop the event. We DO NOT want any animal to be harmed.



Thanks for the page on ALF activities. It's nice to see all the good work that is being done worldwide.

Shurikan

<quote>Cruelty is not such an instinct - but I would argue that meat eating and hunting are. I take some pride in the fact that I do not purchase all my food from shops - that I will actually go out and take the life of an animal myself if I am willing to eat it.
</quote>

Oh I agree. If one is going to eat meat, one should be prepared to kill it oneself. People who hunt (for food)are more honest with themselves than those who refuse to think about the fact that their ham sandwich was once a cute little piggy.

<quote>The world will not become vegan. And I would fear for a society that would detach itself entirely from its rural/hunting roots to the point that people don't fully understand where the food comes from.</quote>

Of course it won't, and I don't think it should. However, I maintaijn that Game-shooting and fox hunting are entirely different things.

Shurikan

Note: I disagree with fox hunting, however I also disagree with rabid activists who cause more harm than they purport to act against. Peaceful protests and support for legislation are more effective and do not give animal rights activists a bad public image. The views of Sabateur and those he supports are not those of the majority of people I know who are against this sport

D V

In the majority of cases animals hunt primarily because they're hungry. Some do for other reasons but usually it is just instinctive or because of simple urges. It is very rarely (but not never, I'll admit) just for fun. But again, that's hardly an excuse.

You don't have to tell me to "take a peek" at national geographic -I'm well aware of the countless wildlife documentaries on tv.

And yes "Nature itself is cruel and unfair", but it's not a patch on mankind.

Saboteur

"Note: I disagree with fox hunting, however I also disagree with rabid activists who cause more harm than they purport to act against. Peaceful protests and support for legislation are more effective and do not give animal rights activists a bad public image. The views of Sabateur and those he supports are not those of the majority of people I know who are against this sport."

Peaceful protests and support for legislation are not always effective. Unfortunately there are times when further actions have to be taken. I'm not saying that I have/do/or will take part in the sort of actions that give Animal Rights Activists a bad name. But I also don't condone the actions that are taken by certain activists. But the Hunters in England have stated that there will be bloodshed across England if hunting with dogs is banned. It'll be interesting to see what happens this weekend at the Pro-Hunt Demonstration in London.

I have no problem with someone who hunts and kills for food. It's the mass killing of the shooters that I object to. Several hundred pheasants being killed for fun. And before you tell me different, Jak, I have attended several shoots in this country and in Britian, so I know what happens. How many of these birds are only wounded and lie dying for hours or days, or until someone arrives to break their necks? I'm not talking about someone going out with their gun to shoot a pheasant or two for their dinner. Maybe if it was for my own survival, I would probably do the same. But we live in an age where we can go to supermarkets and buy whatever we need to eat. I am Vegan and I don't wear leather. And I don't object to people eating meat or wearing leather. Fox-hunting, Hare-coursing, Stag-hunting, etc, do not take place for food. It's also has nothing to do with keeping the numbers down, because the majority of people involved with hunting are only involved for the social aspect of Hunting and the brown nosing that goes on.

Typedef

Ok.

Saboteur & Jak, you have both made certain claims pertaining to dogs being caustrated or animals needlessly suffering because of hunting activities.

Really the burdon of evidence rests with the one who makes the claim, thus substanciate your claims, yourselves, that is what google is for.

Now. I am inclined to agree with Saboteur in principal at least, however I do not think that unilateral and radical action to free captive animals who will be hunted in one way or another is any kind of reasonable answer.

You can't just take the law into your own hands and then expect to be protected by it. Thus whilst fox hunting is legal you must respect the fact that fox hunting is currently legal, so that if and when fox hunting becomes illegal, you can expect the law to be respected and enforced in return.

For what it's worth I find the entire concept of fox hunting is in fact an anthema to some of the most basic principals of decency I was brought up to believe in.

It is true that the claim to be controlling the fox population is unscientific, at best is entirely subjective and in any case if needed should be carried out by a delegated state authority, not left in the hands of pseudo state vigilantes who decide when and how much the fox population needs to be "controlled".

Finally, take game shooting to another threat. I'd really rather the issue wasn't clouded too much.

Cuidado con el Gato

logic1

I have hunted foxes for many years. I also shoot pheasant, woodcock, snipe, rabbit, deer and an assortment of other animals. I've done this all my life. My father was a deer stalker and his father before him.

I've also done alot of ferreting and various other activists animal rights activitists (hippies) like to scream about.

I'm certaily not even going to bother entering into another pointless argument on this forum about the pros and cons and as there have been many topics on this previously. The fact of the matter is, regardless of the degree of discussion, animal rights hippies aren't going to change any of their views and hunters aren't going to change theirs. The whole argument is pointless as no middle ground is ever going to be reached.

The one thing I'm very glad about is that hunting will never be stopped. It certainly may be banned but arrests for hunting will never be enforced. There are too many people doing it and too many people in high places that enjoy it.

So the hippies like "saboteur" will keep going out every weekend cutting farmers fences, destroying farmers land, damaging hunters property and generally acting the nuisance while hunters will continue to enjoy the sport they love while not making fools of themselves.

And long may it last.

.logic.

Kalina

Fox hunting is a cruel way to kill a fox and it's a disgrace that people seem to get a thrill out of it.
I've never been on a hunt though I have seen plenty of them about and as someone who loves horses and horse-riding a hunt looks like great fun- if the element of hounds mauling a fox to death wasn't present.
Those who organise and participate in hunts should just take this element away and organise drag hunting instead. That way the thrill from an equestrian point of view should still be there, the fox will be left alone and the "tradition" can be upheld and maybe even respected.

The Saint

The arguement that the hunters have that they are keeping fox numbers down to protect their livestock is totally untrue. Research was done in England last year during the foot and mouth outbreak when fox hunting was stopped. They found that even a year of no hunting didn't cause any increase in fox numbers. I also think deer hunting and hare coursing are barbaric and we should not be killing off our natural wildlife as there is so little of it left to see. If people want to hunt something then hunt the escaped mink which are increasing in numbers and killing off a lot of our wildlife.

Jak

Originally posted by Saboteur
"Dog packs will kill sheep and lambs - yet they do not eat their kills. I have seen first hand animals killed by wild dogs - it is simply butchery."

I have seen at first hand at two Hunts that I Sabbed, where the hounds got into fields with sheep and attacked them. Is this simply butchery too, or is it part of the fun of the hunt.

If you were to set these dogs free they would do the same if let run wild. Perhaps if you had not 'sabbed' the hunt this would not have happened. But then you do not sound like the kind who would consider their actions too thoroughly.

"The shoot I am a part of is a syndicate. It is non profit. So you may wish to rethink your well informed comment above."

Somehow I don't believe that. Someone is going to rear birds for a shoot and not make any profit out of it??? Think someone is pulling the wool over your eyes there.

Your belief or otherwise is irrelevant. It is fact. The syndicate put forward the initial money to develop the shoot and the money brought in each year goes to paying those employed to manage it. These people make a living out of it yes - but that is all. The profit they make is no more different than the 'profit' a person makes working in a factory. They work the rest of the year round as farmers, foresters, vets and so on.

In the same way, not all fox hunts are the preserve of landed gentry as you like to imagine. Many of the hunts run in this country (granted less so in the UK) are run by farmers for themselves and others. It is not an upper class elite.

The only time I could possibly think that someone would use this tactic is before the horses are taken out of their horse-boxes. The same way that Glass and Tacking is used before Coursing events. Pretty clever idea..thanks!! I'll be keeping it in mind for this Hunting season. But if an animal is injured because someone was stupid enough to bring them out of their horse-boxes onto the bearing, knowing that the bearings were there, then only the owner is to blame

This is the argument of a child. You would put in place the mechanism by which an animal could be hurt and yet will push the blame over should anything happen. Why would such a principled animal lover put an animal at risk at all in the first place?

Peaceful protests and support for legislation are not always effective. Unfortunately there are times when further actions have to be taken.

A militant minority unhappy with the law of the land and not willing to work peacefully to change their world.


In any case with regard specifically to Fox hunting, I have already stated it is not something I am interested in. However I can tolerate it. Ideally I would like to see it switched to muzzled hounds or drag hunting as Shurikan mentioned but to abolish it entirely would be wrong in my view.

There are many positive aspects to such hunts (some touched on by Kalina) which i would like to see maintained.

Finally for now,

animal rights hippies aren't going to change any of their views and hunters aren't going to change theirs

I disagree Logic. When I was young, initially I wanted nothing to do with the hunting and was strongly against it. However my views changed, I went to a few shoots and I found it all perfectly acceptable. I enjoy shooting, but more, I was inclined to test myself and see if I would be willing to kill animals for food. Would I accept the truth behind the plastic film that wraps our food in stores?

There is no great cruelty at these hunting meets, and while animals die and some may take pleasure in the chase, it happens all the time with or without our interference. As I previously stated - the hunters are for the most part second place spectators to a natural event.

While some find this distasteful, I find it tolerable. I am open to change, but nothing so far has triggered that and the comments from Sab and the like will do little to win support for an organisation that clearly needs some balanced viewpoints.

JAK.

logic1

Originally posted by Jak



I disagree Logic. When I was young, initially I wanted nothing to do with the hunting and was strongly against it. However my views changed, I went to a few shoots and I found it all perfectly acceptable. I enjoy shooting, but more, I was inclined to test myself and see if I would be willing to kill animals for food. Would I accept the truth behind the plastic film that wraps our food in stores?

JAK.

I wasn't referring to small numbers of individuals Jak but to both parties as a whole. They're views are definately not going to be massively overhauled as a result of campaigning by either side. Although I believe it is possible to influence the views of third parties.

Originally posted by The Saint

I also think deer hunting and hare coursing are barbaric and we should not be killing off our natural wildlife

Deer hunting is very well regulated in Ireland. Red deer are protected in Kerry where their numbers are high and many other counties. To shoot fallow or sica (who are *not* native to Ireland) you usually have to take a lease out on a forestry. The lease entitles you to cull a certain number of deer from that wood ever year and each deer you shoot is tagged.

Basically the forestry need to cull a certain amount of deer from each forestry every year and sell the rights to normal people to shoot these deer. Hunting deer with dogs hasn't taken place afaik for a long time. I have been hunting deer with 16 years and haven't once heard, directly, of people hunting deer with dogs.

To get a deer licence in the first place you have to own a lease of have permission from a number of farmers to the shooting rights on their land. trust me this isn't easy.

.logic.

netwhizkid

Hi,
I think fox-hunting is great there is not enogh of it been done, actually, when i was down on my brother-inlaws farm last year, i woke up one morning we walked out with his 6 year son and 4 year old daughter to feed their pet lambs, very quickly i told the kids to come inside and we would have a little talk, one of their lambs was killed by the fox and the other was dying, my brother-inlaw put him down, the kid were devasted, and yet people thinks that fox-hunting should be banned, if i were a T.D with power i would give a subsidy for every fox killed, until they were extinct here, and they would be no loss,

Regards netwhizkid

logic1

Originally posted by netwhizkid
Hi,
I think fox-hunting is great

Regards netwhizkid

Well said

Actually there used be a bounty on foxes.. bring in the tail you get the cash. Alas no more

.logic.

Typedef

Originally posted by netwhizkid
I think fox-hunting is great there is not enogh of it been done, actually, when i was down on my brother-inlaws farm last year, i woke up one morning we walked out with his 6 year son and 4 year old daughter to feed their pet lambs, very quickly i told the kids to come inside and we would have a little talk, one of their lambs was killed by the fox and the other was dying, my brother-inlaw put him down, the kid were devasted, and yet people thinks that fox-hunting should be banned

Yes and in nature predators kill things, that's how they survive.
Anecdote (x) doesn't really convince me that foxes should be wiped out by hunting parties.
Just because some lamb got killed by a fox once doesn't in fact give someone the right to annihilate a species (thank god).

if i were a T.D with power i would give a subsidy for every fox killed, until they were extinct here, and they would be no loss,
Regards netwhizkid

I'm assuming you are trolling now.

The Saint

netwhizkid, why would you want to kill every fox in the country? Just coz one killed a cute little lamb doesnt mean you can wipe out a species. It was a very uneducated statement. People seem to think that if something is not benificial to them that it shouldnt exist. Packs of domesticated dogs kill more sheep and lambs so do you think we should wipe those out too. Why not cement over the country side so nothing can live there?

The Saint

I have set up a poll to get a good idea of where opinions lie on this. Check it out and vote.

The Corinthian

Let’s assume that the arguments of tradition and pest control are invalid. As we’re discussing foxhunting, our nature as omnivores doesn’t come into it - unless someone wants to tell me that Renard a la Crème is a delicacy (and knowing the French it could well be). That leaves us with sport. Blood sport, using an animal of limited intellect, yet capable of feeling pain and (instinctive) emotion as prey, to be exact.

Foxhunts, as with any other blood sports, are tremendously enjoyable. That’s probably because humans are largely predators. Is it wrong? Depends on the rights you ascribe to foxes and other non-humans. Some may argue that we should empathise with animals as we would with each other (no bestiality jokes, please!). And this empathy felt for animals, that goes to the point where we will spend more on our pets, pro capita, than our children, is largely a cultural fetish of the English speaking world.

Of course we could curb this murderous instinct. Unfortunately, this is all too often the argument of those who need to take supplements with their vegan diets to simply live.

As such it seems too selective a viewpoint for reasons that are cultural rather than logical. Too self-indulgent.

Manach

Foxes are vermin - hunting is a good a way as any to cull their numbers.
Personally I feel their descruction by hounds just, given that is exactly how they leave their victims when they break into poultry houses.
I live in the country, and I believe this is a sentiment commonly shared by this community.

DeVore

I would remind people that while this thread seems to be a robust to-and-fro of points, that civility is crucial.

Saboteur, I understand you feel strongly about your views but I cant comprehend how you can wilfully injure horses and indeed *people* in the name of Animal Right Campaigning. Its rather like the fire-bombers of abortion clinics and assassination of doctors who perform abortions. Mindboggling.

Violence begets violence and even violence against property inspires terror in many people other then just the hunters...

Right or wrong, as Typedef says, noone should be above the law. Campaign for the law to be changed if you like but taking it into your own hands is disgraceful.

DeV.

johnKarma

I've never been involved in a Fox Hunt, nor have I any inclination to take part in one. The thought of chasing a helpless fox, then observing hounds tear it to shreds sickens me. I'd rather not sate any latent predatorial instincts I may have in such a barbaric way, thank you very much.

But just because something makes me feel uncomfortable, does that give me the right to impose my view on the rest of the populace and deny them their pleasure?

Why should we ban fox hunting? Should animals have rights? The consensus is that it's justifiable to kill animals for food. But, as vegans and vegetarians like to point out, we don't actually need them for food any more. So why is it OK to kill them but not to torture them? Surely the taking of life is the ultimate crime.

In order to justify a ban on "cruelty to animals" it is necessary to employ various "tortured distinctions" like those mooted above.

I agree with Corinthian. Why should one portion of the population impose its view on the other just to make itself feel better?

Typedef

Originally posted by johnKarma
Why should we ban fox hunting? Should animals have rights?

Yes they should and why? Because it is actually morally wrong to kill an animal simply for the pleasure of doing so. Normally that creature will die in a most likely horrible way, so as to enhance the thrill of the kill and I for one see no sense nor give no credo to arbitrarily inflicting pain and suffering on an innocent purely for the thrill one derives in doing so. Such behaviour is in fact in my opinion, quite sadistic and quite sick.

So why is it OK to kill them but not to torture them? Surely the taking of life is the ultimate crime.

Presumption is the mother of all <&$% ups, no I would have to say that in many ways it is the natural order of things for one creature to feed off of another creature for survival and why not, that is the law of the jungle? As sentient creatures though it is abasing to enjoy watching an animal suffer and in my opinion a fox being torn to shreds by a pack of dogs will suffer as that happens.

In order to justify a ban on "cruelty to animals" it is necessary to employ various "tortured distinctions" like those mooted above.

I feel quite comfortable in the assertion that chasing a fox with a pack of dogs around the country side for kilometers/miles and allow the pack of dogs rip the fox to shreds constitutes cruelty and torture and I don't really think that is a bleeding heart liberal stance on that either.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Typedef
Because it is actually morally wrong to kill an animal simply for the pleasure of doing so.

Is it?

That a little presumptuous given it is what we’re debating here in the first place. You're making a few sweeping moral assumptions here and then looking to impose them upon a community I assume you're not even a member of.

Typedef

Legally speaking if you kill a dog for example for fun, you will get into trouble.

Thus if you were to extract a 'moral' ethic from such a law/practice it wouldn't be unreasonable to derive a principal implied by such laws that killing animals for fun is in fact wrong.

Jak

Well legally speaking it is not illegal to kill many animals for sport. So by your logic it must be morally acceptable.

The foundations of law do not always stem from moral grounds.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Typedef
Thus if you were to extract a 'moral' ethic from such a law/practice it wouldn't be unreasonable to derive a principal implied by such laws that killing animals for fun is in fact wrong.

Two words: Nuremberg Laws.

Typedef

Can you really define fox hunting as a sport?

It's not recognised by any Olympic comitee as far as I am aware.

Similarly either shooting birds is a sport or something you do for food. Which is it? I ask because it makes an important difference between a sport and a 'method' of killing the food you eat.

Jak

Can you really define fox hunting as a sport? It's not recognised by any Olympic comitee as far as I am aware.

Don't be ridiculous. There are countless sports and activities not recognised by the IOC. I'm not even going to begin citing examples - there are simply too many.

Similarly either shooting birds is a sport or something you do for food. Which is it? I ask because it makes an important difference between a sport and a 'method' of killing the food you eat.

No it is not a case of either/or. We can and do partake in the sport for both reasons.

I know people who enjoy driving places. It gets them somewhere but they also enjoy the process of getting there.

I like the food and I enjoy killing it.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Typedef
Can you really define fox hunting as a sport?

It's not recognised by any Olympic comitee as far as I am aware.

Neither are a lot of other sports - Hurling, Gaelic Football, women's hot oil wrestling...

Similarly either shooting birds is a sport or something you do for food. Which is it? I ask because it makes an important difference between a sport and a 'method' of killing the food you eat.

Since when? Who put you on an Olympic commitee? Where do you think many sports come from, but from war and hunting? Marksmanship, for example (and that is recognised by a Olympic commitee or two ) is both a sport and a 'method' of killing the food you eat.

Keeks

I have major problems with threads like this because as logic1 one stated there is no middle ground that both sides can come to an agreement on. It’s just as well that no one has really come out with a pro Fox hunting argument.

There was talk there for a while of the psychological effect hunting has on foxes. Somehow I don’t think it has much. Call it what you like (law of the jungle, survival of the fittest etc.) but I see nothing unnatural in a group of larger animals chasing a smaller animal. While the smaller animal might not expect it, it will accept it as a part of its day-to-day life. It won’t have the same psychological effect as, lets say, a group of lads chasing a women down Grafton Street at 4 in the morning.

Right now, down to the nitty gritty. Before I let this thread go any further, lets clear up a few things.

1. I don’t care whether you think it’s a sport or not. We’re not here to debate whether or not it should be allowed in the next Olympics or not. It would be a better idea to discuss the reason for fox hunting. Is it for fun or profit, not what type of activity it is.
2. Can we leave the whole shooting thing out if this thread? It’s a different topic with different principles.
3. There is a lot of to and fro going on in this thread. Claim on counter claim by both sides. Typedef has already mentioned this. There are very little facts being laid out here in the arguments. Substantiate your claims. I don’t want to see anymore ‘I heard it from my mothers friends sister cousins dog that it was true’ type statements. If you weren’t there first hand or have a web link or attachment then don’t print it. I am a very skeptical person by nature, and I need proof before I will believe anything.

Now with all that out of the way, let me try and get this thread back on topic. Since I metioned the a severe lack of facts on this subject, does anyone have any (/me looks at Saboteur for the answer since he it the Animal rights Guru). Does everyone know what Foxhunting is? What it involves? How are the dogs treated? The horses? How many foxes are killed each year? How many escape? Do they let the ones that hide in their dens escape or hunt the out? Do they blood the hounds? Are the foxes pre-caught or ones that were always free?

As of yet no one has made a really convincing argument for the banning of foxhunting.

Jak

Originally posted by Keeks
I have major problems with threads like this because as logic1 one stated there is no middle ground that both sides can come to an agreement on.

There is some middle ground - muzzles on dogs and acceptance of the free range nature of hunted animals being preferable to industrialised food production were two areas I noted.

Can we leave the whole shooting thing out if this thread? It’s a different topic with different principles.

Shooting was relevant to the ban on fox hunting as you can be assured if Fox hunting is banned, shooting will be next on the agenda. In addition there are a number of distinct similarities between both activities.

There is a lot of to and fro going on in this thread. Claim on counter claim by both sides. Typedef has already mentioned this. There are very little facts being laid out here in the arguments. Substantiate your claims. I don’t want to see anymore ‘I heard it from my mothers friends sister cousins dog that it was true’ type statements. If you weren’t there first hand or have a web link or attachment then don’t print it. I am a very skeptical person by nature, and I need proof before I will believe anything.

Good for you. But given that many people become involved in these discussions as a passing lunch time interest I think you will be lucky to find people willing to build a legally robust case for your perusal. These are discussion boards, nothing more.

For people involved in these areas on either side, many things are already known and accepted and thus we will refer to them - without submitting a video diary of an example event alongside it - if proof is needed, or something is heavily disputed then yes - ask for a little evidence by all means.

Now with all that out of the way, let me try and get this thread back on topic. Since I metioned the a severe lack of facts on this subject, does anyone have any (/me looks at Saboteur for the answer since he it the Animal rights Guru). Does everyone know what Foxhunting is? What it involves? How are the dogs treated? The horses? How many foxes are killed each year? How many escape? Do they let the ones that hide in their dens escape or hunt the out? Do they blood the hounds? Are the foxes pre-caught or ones that were always free?

Yes, I would wager most eveybody who was heavily involved in this thread understands what Foxhunting is and hence there was no need to draw a diagram. Your questions are a little pointless in the sense that Foxhunting practices (no more than any hunting clubs) do vary and given your earlier comment about substantiating claims nobody will be able to provide you with undisputed figures.

I would say though that not every hunt ends the same way and generally hunters would claim that it is rare the animal is caught and killed (better press), while antis would dispute this. The numbers are not the key issue at this point - as I am sure both sides will agree. It is about the right to engage in the activity or not. I would guess even 1 would be too many for the anti community, which is fair enough.

As regards the treatment of the horses and dogs ... again from experience, in any form of hunting club they are generally treated with exceptional care, moreso than most regular domestic pets. They are well fed, well groomed and cared for - there is usually a great deal of pride involved with this.

In any case, you got here a little late. I think we are pretty much done.