Sleeping Problems (not quite Insomnia)

phobos

Anybody that knows me well enough, would know that I'm the type of person that would sacrifice sleep, at any cost to complete projects or pursue ideas etc. The problem with me is that I live in a 24hr world, and my body can't keep up. This might sound strange, but I always find I would prefer not to have to sleep at all because it gets in the way, when I should be doing other things.

Take for example it's 11pm at night, I sit down to write some code, and all of a sudden, some programming power from above inspires me, and all sorts of ideas fill my mind. I don't notice the time, and turn around and notice light coming through my curtains; it's the following morning. I go down stairs, have breakfast, and await exhaustion. I know that the majourity of human activity is performed during the daylight hours, but at around 11am the following morning I just drop, and can't think straight.

As programming is concerned I could never do it properly in the morning (even after a good nights sleep), I do my best work when I've been up for a while (the longer the better, hence the whole, being able to program @ night thing). Ever since I was a child and my friends and I would have sleepover parties etc, I remember I always was the last one to fall asleep (often when everyone else was just waking up). The problem is that @ night I just can't sleep, it's the time of day that I just can't settle my head, and stop all those ideas from popping in, that drive me to continue my work.

At first I thought it was kinda kewl that I was getting all these neat ideas, but in all fairness it's destroying my day-time life, and my body just can't stay awake all the time. I would love if I could never sleep so I wouldnt' have to worry about things like this. But because I'm stuck with this stupid human body, I have to obey it's clock, and treat it as best as I can. But I'm stuck in the middle between my overly active mind, and my body. Sounds kinda funny that bit, lol

Has anyone else ever been in the same situation?, I would love to hear how you got it under control

Cheers,

;-phobos-)

Gordon

That's a great feeling as you know that you are doing good but you certainly don't feel it. I haven't done it enough to cause problems but I just went with it and kept on as much as I could then my body naturally found its rythm. It seems like you have a job in the day so you have to be awake in the day. It may seem silly but try fooling your body into thinking that the night is day by getting sunlight lightbulbs. just a small idea.

But, I think that's great, inspiration comes to few so revel in it while you can. Eat right and exercise, who knows you may beat sleep eventually.

azezil

Certainly an interesting case! It appears to me that at some point in you life you were required to stay awake for a prolonged period into the night. I've done this and it can be difficult to break out of the habit of staying up late and sleeping the days away, you however never broke the habit!

You need to be really tough on yourself, force yourself to go to bed at reasonable hours. Its the only way you're going to break the cycle. Good luck, sooner you than me

phobos

I'm glad there are people here than can relate to my problem. But I think the biggest part of the problem is that I don't think it's a problem. I just think that it's crap that my body can't keep up. I'm a firm believer in deceiving the mind, and that sunlight bulb idea could be a good one, I'll look in to it. I have tried on several occasions to tell myself that I'm not tired, and to cop on to myself. I will drink coffee, heck I've even been known to place a few coffee granuals in my mouth and wash them down with coffee. Disguisting I know, but a stimulant at best. It's like my mind is trying it's best to keep my body awake, so it can carry on. When your body is awake you have control of your thoughts, but when you're asleep you don't. So my mind is kind of depandent on my body.

I don't look forward to sleep, I get anxious when I start to feel sleepy, and nearly try to work faster, to try and get as much in as possible before I do eventually drop. I have fallen asleep in the strangest of places as a result of this. The last time was about 2 weeks ago, while I was getting my hair cut!!. My barber had to give me a wee slap over the back of the head, and tell me to take a couple of days off. Now that's not good. Thankfully I'm not driving ATM, and rely on public transport.

I mentioned in my last post "stupid human body". I say this because I think that we are at a premature evolutionary stage, and there is a lot to come yet. While our minds are quite advanced, it's like our bodies are lagging behind. It's kinda like having cutting edge software and no hardware capeable of running it. It's probably a strange way of thinking, but from the mind of a programmer, it's nothing new

Keep it coming lads, I'm very interested in what you have to say. But make sure you don't go off topic, and backup your points, with a bit of a spiel. I hate answers like "Take some pills, or drink more coffee", because that's kind of obvious. Intelligent conversation is what's promoted here.

;-phobos-)

LegacyUser

Originally posted by phobos
Intelligent conversation is what's promoted here.

likeing jib, cut there of

I get anxious when I start to feel sleepy

Because you want to finish your work, or you fear sleep?

phobos

Because you want to finish your work, or you fear sleep?

Neither, because my work is never finished (I will always be working on something, or learning something new). I don't fear sleep, I just don't like it. I think it's a waste of time, because it's just used to boost your body's energy levels. Granted, if you never ever slept, you would probably go mad, so your mind needs the rest too. But not for bloody 6 - 8 hours of the day. That works out @, at lest 25% of your life doing nothing productive. Unless the answers to your problems are conjured in dreams of course , but what are the chances of you remembering.

likeing jib, cut there of

Unregistered guy, your opinions are encouraged and welcome, but just remember that this is a serious thread. There will never be a possitive productive outcome from anything, if people don't take it seriously.

;-phobos-)

Dustaz

We need occy to post a 12 page post on the effects of sleep deprivation

Phobos, take it from someone who knows, its NOT a good thing over an extended period.

azezil

It is legitimate to ask why animals sleep at all, given that the individual is less able to defend itself during a period of reduced arousal. However, nearly every animal sleeps, in some way. Animals that cannot afford to be in a state of completely reduced arousal -- like dolphins, which are mammals that live in the sea but need to come to the surface to breathe -- may rest one side of the brain at a time. Clearly sleep performs some profound function for the nervous system, but what is it?
Many theories have been proposed, including a famous suggestion by the Nobel Prize winner, Francis Crick, that the purpose of sleep is to allow the brain to "take out the trash" -- to deprogram the miscellaneous events that are not to be stored for long-term memory. Recent studies with animals in our laboratory suggest that he may be right, at least at a molecular level.

To explore the circuits in the brain that participate in sleep, we have homed in on the production of a protein called Fos, made by many nerve cells in the brain when they are active. We find that, during forced wakefulness, progressively more Fos is made by the brain's neuronal circuitry. Even after the animals are allowed to go to sleep, many take some time to "get in the mood," and during that period the Fos system in the brain remains extremely active. However, with the onset of sleep, the Fos protein in the brain disappears very rapidly.

The gene that codes for the Fos protein is a kind of molecular "switch." Nerve cells use this switch to engage much of the housekeeping that is necessary for them to go about their daily tasks. The disappearance of Fos protein with the onset of sleep may mean that it is necessary to turn off these genetic pathways, to allow them to reset, so the nerve cells can be re-engaged the next day anew in a fresh set of tasks. This would fit with our knowledge that continuous engagement of the nervous system results in mental derangement in humans, and, if sufficiently prolonged in animals, may even result in death.

phobos

Originally posted by Dustaz
Phobos, take it from someone who knows, its NOT a good thing over an extended period.

I know it's not good Dustaz. I would like to get it under control, but I think my reasons for staying awake are psychological. I have led my life convincing myself, that sleep only get's in the way, and always wanted to find ways to counteract feeling tired. When I say all my life, I mean I have always thought that way, but it's not that I haven't slept at night all my life. There are really two things going on there. 1) My opinions of sleep, 2) When or How I can sleep.

The when or how part is hard to pin-point because I never know when I'm going to get this rush of inspriation, and want to stay awake. It's at that point all my ideas and thoughts, make the need for sleep their greatest enemy. I think it's quite interesting, and it's only a matter of time before science finds ways to trick the body in to thinking that it's OK. What ever effects that sleeping has on your body (I can guess, but cant give an educated guess), will hopefully be replaced in pill form, so you can still get all the things that sleep gives the body, but now without throwing 25%+ of your day away.

There would be psychological impacts on a product such as that, because not everybody would feel a need to stay awake. Psychological, meaning that a person who is not used to seeing day/night sessions pass by in numbers without sleeping, might not just carry on like everything is OK. It might be too much of a change for them in an instant. I for one, know that I could do it for longer periods of time. I know it is possible to have one nights sleep for every two working days, and feel OK (obviously not the best, but this is where medicine could come in). As I get older I think I'm getting worse, in that I don't seem to be able to last as long without sleep. BTW I'm only going on 22.

I think we will be seeing more and more of this type of behaviour in the future, because up until times like today, people wouldnt' have considered staying awake during the night hours. It makes you think, what changes will we want to make to ourselves, so we can better fit in with future trends, and what they might be. Things like that float around in my head all the time. :cool:

[edit]
Azezil, that is a very interesting quote, cheers for that. Where did you get it from?. Also what if were able to inhibit the development of Fos in the brain, we wouldn't feel tired. I understand the process of "house keeping", but what if we found alternative ways to do that. Just a suggestion. Yeah I would love if Bob came in here and shed some of his expertice
[/edit]

;-phobos-)

mayhem#

Is there any specific reason why you have to be awake during the day?

phobos

Is there any specific reason why you have to be awake during the day?

Yeah, I'm in my final year of my degree in college. Take for example my thesis is due this week, and my final year project the week after. Then after that will be revision classes before the exams, with compulsary attendence if I want to sit the exams. So it is imperative that I'm awake during the day.

Actually one day last week, I was nearly about to crack up because it was 5am the second night in a row, and there I was lying there trying to sleep, because I had to be in college @ 9. I only made it in @ 9 for 2 days out of 5 this week. So it's becoming a serious problem. My suited lifestyle can really flourish when I don't have to be up during the day. It's easy for me to start a day early and wait up until the follwing morning. But it's very hard for me to get out of the up @ night trend. As I mentioned earlier, when I get moments of inspiration from above, I can't sleep. While I wait for medicine to invent something to work with me, and my sleep deprivation theories, I will have to try and sleep at night, because it's going to ruin me.

;-phobos-)

Samson

Have you considered sleeping tablets ?
A light dosage should not affect your daytime activities, but it may very well help Mr. Sandman do his work !

phobos

Have you considered sleeping tablets ?

The other night I wished I had them , but in all fairness I have known people to become addicted to them. I don't ever want to find myself addicted to some drug just so I can perform the same day to day routines as those who don't need them. I see them as a weakness in that respect.

On the otherhand here I am promoting the idea of a drug that can keep you awake (I'm not talking about MDMA, for the itchy finger smart asses out there). A person that takes sleeping pills obviously need to sleep at certain times, Eg. night, so they can be active during the day. But the world I'm trying to promote is where we don't need sleep at all, rendering the motive to take sleeping pills in the first place, useless

;-phobos-)

b20uvkft6m5xwg

I wholly believe in eating before going to bed.

Having your main meal of the day, will promote serotonin, a chemical which makes you sleepy-

Ever wondered why after a big Christmas dinner you just plonk onto a chair and nod off in no time !?

Check out this article enitled...
Doze control: Eat right and you'll sleep like a baby

I can defo vouch for it- I also feels it helps me maintain high bio rythmic levels and thus gives me alot of energy in the morning:)
If its a big problem, you should try it.

V3n37

Well Phobos, I have (or I had) the exact same problem with sleeping. I used to stay at night until I realised it was morning. Couldn't help it! Programming was letting me without sleep at all. It was just starting with a simple idea, few lines of code and would end up in a whole project. And you know next morning, couldn't keep the head straight, falling asleep through lecturers. My marks were going down. Then I decided one night I would stay awake, all night and day. Went to bed that day at about 22:00 and woke up at 9:00. It was hell waking up, but did manage it. Now whenever I get to that stage of not sleeping that's what I do, and it does work. As you can imagine I had to cut down on some night programming, but I saved the year in college. I'm even starting to program in the afternoon. So it is worth trying.
I hope this helps.

Baz_

Im in pretty much the same boat, and I know you asked for no one liners, but my advice is: Stay away from IRC.

My backup is Dustaz there, as well as many others, but hes the oldest so it affects him more

Mills

During times when I don't have to get up at any particular time (like a weeks holidays) my sleep pattern quickly changes so that I'm staying up all night and sleeping for most of the day, and I don't have any good reason to stay up most of the night, it just happens.

Nowadays when I have to get up early and go to school, I usually go to bed at 1 or 2 am, get up at 8 or so, go to school, then fall into bed for an hour or two when I get home.

LegacyUser

Phobos I have the exact same problem!
Sometime during the night, when everyone else is going to bed, I suddenly spring to life. I can't stop thinking and getting inspired with new idea. I often stay up all night just thinking/writing/programming. Most of my best work has been done between 1 and 3 am.

I have to go to college during the day so sometime around noon I just feel completely worn out and have to keep myself stimulated by either conversation or activity untill classes are over and I can go home and collapse.Going without sleep was starting to cause problems at college because I was so worn out and it was also giving me terrible migraines

I really hate the idea of sleep! Dreaming is cool sometimes but sleep just seems to be a waste of valuable time when I could be doing better things. I don't want to have to sleep but it's like I am forced to by my body. .

I went to the doctor and got some very strong sleeping pills for this. They's knock a horse out! But even these didn't solve my problems because the reason I wasn't sleeping wasn't because I had to much energy but because I just couldn't stop using my mind! I didn't want to! By the time my feeling of tiredness got strong enough to make me actually want to sleep it was usually early in the morning and knocking myself out with pills then would have done me no good.

So basically I'm screwed! My body needs sleep but my mind doesn't want it at all. I mean look its 2am and I'm on Boards!

Puck

Sorry forgot to log in. That was me there in the last post. Thought I should identify myself in case you need any advice on sleeping pills or cracking this problem (If I ever crack it).

Well I'm off to pop a pill, I've college in the morning!:D

SantaHoe

Hmmm, yes this all sounds very familiar...
Sometimes when I get engrosed in a project (or anything else vaguely interesting) - I seem to ignore all sleepy impulses and stay up until it's finished or until I can no longer function normaly.
Other times it just feels like some strange urge to stay awake and do something... anything... other than sleep.
Like right now for example - 4:21am and I'm knackered, I could fall asleep right now where I sit, but something drives me to stay awake.
If I had a bright idea of installing an extra OS, I would happily sit here until 4pm tomorrow installing and configuring it to perfection.
Fortunatly it's not as big a problem for me as it seems to be for Phobos, I like a good 9 hours of sleep , and haven't stayed awake for more than 35 hours at a time, but I know where you're coming from ... that resistance to sleep when you're awake, and the non-stop mind-chatter when you actually try to sleep.
My advise: Stop drinking caffinated drinks after 6pm.
Sleep is good, don't fight it

/me waddles off to bed

Cerberus

I seem to have the same "problem" as well. I am also of the thinking that 6-8 hours is too much time to be asleep for. I think with a slight bit of mental control and will power it is well possible to work(not just stay awake) 17 hours a day and sleep for 5 hours. This is not just merely an opinion but a statement of fact. I have done this every summer for the last 5 years.
I am currently in college but in the 4 months of summer holidays I work for an agricultural contractor at home.

The typical day is about 14-15 hours long with about half an hour off for lunch. This is 7 days a week. However, twice during the summer, there is a 3 week period when the **** hits the fan (around mid-June and mid August) - most crops become ripe . We would start work at around 6 - 6:30 in the morning and would finish up at about 12-2 at night. Sometimes we would have to work through the night so on average it works out at doing 18 hour days for about 21 days.

The first week of this is nothing short of hell...nothing could prepare you for it. It is such a shock to the system that you end up trying to catch zzzs anywhere you can. One of our guys once just dropped down in a mucky field whilst is was pissing rain and just fell asleep. A farmer found him 3 hours later asleep and soaked to the bone. You go to bed at 1 in the morning and it seems like u have just lied down and it is 6am and time to get up again. No alarm clock in the world could wake u up. My father has to get me up. U try to eat breakfast but u end up puking it straight up again. You are mentally and physically exhausted.
However once the second week comes it starts to get easier and easier. By the time the 3rd week has come you are fully adjusted to the your new sleeping limits. You automatically awake at 6am fresh and fit. You even have enough energy to go out for a few pints Saturday night. Even when the chance arrives to sleep in you don't really feel like it. You would still get up at that time anyway. If u get a half day due to rain you become restless and don't know what to do with yourself.

Now I'm not saying that everyone should commit themselves to this type of work regime but it just proves what is possible with regards the mind and body. It is possible to work a 17 hour day on just 5 hours sleep and not walk around like a zombie. It is the sleeping pattern itself that you have to accomplish. Doing erratic working hours is nigh on impossible. You give your body no chance at getting into a rythym. Sometimes if I find that my body has got out of a sleeping pattern and I can't sleep I would drink a beer or two and sit by the fire and then doze off.

At college it's a completely different story. I get up at around 2 in the day, arse around til about 9 o'clock and then start coding til about 5 in the morning. I just don't feel like doing anything during the day. I don't know if it is the case that there is too much distractions during the day or what but I never do my best work til about 12 at night. Its quite, nothing on TV, no one to annoy you. I think it is a problem that is indictative to programmers. It is about the only job so far where your work is totally mental and to a large extent done alone without hardly any interaction with other people. When u get into that feeling where everything is going great and the code is flying out it is very hard to stop. You find yourself saying "I'll just try this one thing now and see if it works". Then it works and you want to see if another little tweak will work and so on. It gets to the stage where you don't see it as work but more of a challenge that you must overcome at all costs. A program can always be made better. You can always see things that could be done better. So, the very nature of the work lends itself to an erratic working day and night.

So, solutions....I don't really know. I just tend to go with the flow. When I'm tired I sleep, otherwise I sit at the computer. This is not good for lecture attendance however. So this semester I have started to just force myself to go to bed at a reasonable hour. I would play a couple of games of quake or read a book to get the eyes tired and then the brain tends to follow and I'll go to bed and get up the next morning middlin early for lectures. Doesn't always work but its one solution. Another solution is to get into some sorta of regular excercise regime. Nothing serious, maybe a short run or jog at the same time every day. Stick to the same time and try to work the rest of your day around that. You would soon tend to get into a regular sleep pattern. Its all about working around a regime as strict as you can. You can survive on 5 hours a night but you must make sure that it is the same everynight and not 3 hours one night and 10 hours the next.

Another theory( well fact I suppose) about sleep is the REM pattern. The way I picked it up anyway is that REM starts every 2 hours or so. If you can work your waking up time to be at the end of the REM time you can get up a lot easier and and feel fresher as well. If you try to wake up when your REM is starting it is very hard to get up and u never feel right for the day. I could have that arseways now but I think that is the jist of it.

Anyways, it's 5am and I'm still up hacking my FYP so I better get back to it.

Gordon

Some interesting points.
What I was thinking, if you are a programmer it's not like you can go out and do stuff when you're having a walk. The thing I loved doing was sitting up late and getting munchies and writing some songs or poems or stuff. It was a type of creation just like your coding, but a type that I could do anywhere at any time, which is why I didn't always have late nights - I could spread out my time throughout the day.

Any chance you could do the same? Have a notebook for your ideas, or a tape recorder to spew your thoughts? Or is your coding only done by testing on the computer.

Enygma

You need to get away from your computer, chill out a bit. You don't need to be 'on' or 100% productive all your waking hours, you'll just burn out, quickly.

You'd be surprised what you find if you just take a step back and relax a little. Go out to the countryside on a nice day and take it all in, the plants the animals, the whole lot. It's nice to get out into a natural environment every now and then. Take a break from programming.

It might even make you a better programmer, samurai warrriors used to practice a whole range of completely unrelated tasks such as gardening and flower arranging to become better warriors.

You've got the rest of your life to write code, there's no hurry.

chillax

Oh and on the whole sleeping tablets thing, try a glass of warm milk and some soothing music (I use tracks 6, 9 and 10 on Daft Punk - Discovery ).
Failing that you can get herbal sleeping pills that really do work. No adverse effects and they're only about 5 quid. Over the counter too. Try your local chemist.
Stop what you're doing an hour or two before you want to go to sleep, your brain needs time to relax a bit. Read a book or something. Get a Dilbert or Calvin & Hobbes book or something that doesn't take much brain power to read

Wait till you get a job anyways, you're not gonna have this problem then

azezil

How can the brain possibly function without sleep, well ok it may function but you'd learn nothing. While awake you are constantly receiving stimulus. All this goes into your brain and is stored in short term memory.

During sleep the important stuff is stored in medium to long term memory and the rest discarded. IMO we need this process in order to learn /remember anything, and also perhaps to make room to store more information?

bonkey

Originally posted by phobos
I know it's not good Dustaz. I would like to get it under control, but I think my reasons for staying awake are psychological. I have led my life convincing myself, that sleep only get's in the way, and always wanted to find ways to counteract feeling tired.

This, to me, is the crux of the matter. Reading through the thread, everyone else who has porfessed to having a similar lifestyle to this seems to have made smiilar comments like :
I am also of the thinking that 6-8 hours is too much time to be asleep for...

I really hate the idea of sleep! Dreaming is cool sometimes but sleep just seems to be a waste of valuable time when I could be doing better things...


Yes, it probably is psychological in nature - if you are denying "sleepy impulses" or looking for ways to stay awake, then it sure as hell isnt physical.

The problem is seeing sleep as unnecessary. It isnt.

You are putting massive strain on your hormonal system while staying awake while your body wants to sleep - which leads to increased stress, and can have serious implications for you health.

I cant offer a solution, but you have to start by changing your attitude of

But I think the biggest part of the problem is that I don't think it's a problem. I just think that it's crap that my body can't keep up

The problem is not that your body cant keep up - its that your mind is not following healthy patterns.

If I said that I had a eating disorder, and didnt think it was a problem, because I simply thought it was crap that my body kept demanding I put food into it - what would your reaction be?

I'm not trying to say your problem is of the same scale, but its basic root appears to be that you simply are refusing to accept the limitations of your humanity.

Drugs, eating habits, etc, may all alleviate part of the problem, but at the end of the day, your mindset is possibly the biggest problem. Change that, and then you'll find that your lifestyle is easier to change - when your body feels sleepy, you will make a more "moderated" decision on whether or not you need sleep (and can afford to) as opposed to whether or not you want to sleep.

Just my 2c.

seamus

I have (kind of) the same problem. The computer is in my room, but without a net connection, so I can steer clear of IRC. That's one down. Normally I'd watch some telly until about 1am (Voyager :rolleyes: ), but if turn it on once I go upstairs, I'm screwed. Whether it's attempting to configure something in Linux, or programming, I can be up til all hours. When I first installed Linux, I got 4 hours (nonconcurrent) sleep over 72, and then collapsed on the 4th day(into bed). I think certainly not having a net connection is a bit of a godsend, 'cos if I hit a snag, that's it. I can try solve it for a while, but I have to wait until I get into college to probe for answers on the net, so I go to bed.
I'm the same with everything. I get less productive work done in the morning and, always more done at night. The best studying I've done over the last 2 weeks was while lying in bed at 1 am and studying til 3. I just can't do any study in the morning, and I've met loads of others like that, so I think it's just the way you're built.
Luckily for me, I can gauge my sleep patterns, which means I can go to bed for any multiple of 2 hours (ideally 4) and get up, feeling fine. Something to do with drifting in and out of heavy/lght sleeping durig the night. Also once I stay up past 5am, I can only get 2 hours of sleep at any time.

Just to clarify - Yes I do get tired all of the time, and yes most days I stay in bed till 11, but it doesn't bother me, becuase I am being far more productive than I would be with normal patterns.

My only suggestion is not to turn on the comp when you are going to bed - move where it is - into the shed or something!! And go to the gym once a day. Exercise always corrects my sleep pattern, funnilly enough.

A warning - A son of a friend of my father's dropped dead last year. He was junior doctor, who they reckon had done at least 55 hours straight in the hospital. He was in perfect health, but died of heart failure at 25. The only thing they could come up with was that his brain literally 'forgot' to keep his heart beating, because of sleep deprivation.

Hobbes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_1931000/1931140.stm

Gavin

yeah i did this for my third year project. Stayed awake all night for a couple of nights. My code was sloppy when I looked over it when awake and fresh.

Exercise yourself. Don't try to go to sleep immediately after using the computer/watch television. Set aside a certain amount of hours to do work. Start work at 9 and finish at 7 or 8 type of thing.

And seriously, exercise is great. I don't go to the gym.. too lazy, and too far away. I couldn't sleep when i was doing my project, like yourself, too many ideas bouncing around. Now that i'm working, I've to walk for half an hour to walk to work. That's an hour each day. Not a lot but it tires my legs out when i walk fast.
Get home and do some work on the computer, stop at around 11 and go to bed at 12. Usually conk out now no probs.

I mean.. it used to be a serious problem for me getting to sleep. I'd be lying there for hours and not get sleepy.

Kinda helps when you know you've put in a full day, achieved what you wanted and know what you are going to do tommorrow.

Gav

phobos

Oh So many excellent replies, and so little time to reply myself

Originally posted by Enygma
You need to get away from your computer, chill out a bit. You don't need to be 'on' or 100% productive all your waking hours, you'll just burn out, quickly.

You'd be surprised what you find if you just take a step back and relax a little. Go out to the countryside on a nice day and take it all in, the plants the animals, the whole lot. It's nice to get out into a natural environment every now and then. Take a break from programming.

It might even make you a better programmer, samurai warrriors used to practice a whole range of completely unrelated tasks such as gardening and flower arranging to become better warriors.

You've got the rest of your life to write code, there's no hurry.

chillax

Right I totally agree with you there, about taking a break, and doing different things from time to time. I'm also a Dj, and have a regular slot while in college playing to students every wed night. I originally got in to Djing not just because I was in to the whole music scene, but also to have an escape mechanism for my "was" very unhealthy computing patterns. People are probably reading this and thinking "He's bloody bad now". When I was in my late teens I became physically ill, with a serious need to unplug, but didn't want to at any cost. My outlook from that perspective has changed to a degree. But you mentioned that I've always got the rest of my life to write code. The way I look at it, if I take a break, think of all the work, I could have gotten done, that I wouldn't get done, by wasting my time doing something else. I use the word "wasting", because I don't class anything besides friends/family/computers/programming as important. I am quite narrow minded in that respect. But as I have gotten older, I've started to let go from my strict ways a small bit at a time.

My interests and hobbies take over my life soooo much, which I personally don't have a problem with. I socialise with my friends, and do the things they like to do, as another way to unplug. But I remember someone asking me before, would I prefer to got out clubbing on a Sat night with my bird, or would I prefer stay in and write code. By now you should know which option I went with.

A warning - A son of a friend of my father's dropped dead last year. He was junior doctor, who they reckon had done at least 55 hours straight in the hospital. He was in perfect health, but died of heart failure at 25. The only thing they could come up with was that his brain literally 'forgot' to keep his heart beating, because of sleep deprivation.

That's scary stuff, and the way I look at that as a weakness in the human body, and the quicker we can find ways to improve it "physically" the better. That could be in the form of augmentation etc, using the power of technology in conjunction with the human brain, and body. When someone tells me that, that's just the way the human body is, and you can't escape from it. What goes through my head is that, I can't escape from it, but I could research improving it.

My whole life I've spent pondering ideas that spawn of an infinite number of possibilities. I think it's something special that everyone can do and has, but they chose to handle it differently. For me I don't want to waste any time, ignoring it. To some, I might sound a little mad, but it's something that I am quite passionate about in the end.

Keep the responses rolling in. But just remember at this stage I'm not looking for ideas on how to sleep. I know methods (music, drinks, correct environmental settings, etc) that I can use to my advantage in order to fall asleep. But want I would like to further ponder is the notion of not wanting to fall asleep, and why people would want to do that. Think ahead...;)

;-phobos-)

fi

well i try meditation, what you do is you lay on your back, arms by your side and you listen to your breadthing...

then you imagine a light mine is orange, pushing up through your feet, you ahve to actually see it, so in getting this to happen you are concentrating so hard your mind is going blank...

bring it up to your head but to be honest i never get past my naval, the down side here which i fear will happen to you is your mind is so clear everthing that has been in your mind becaoms solved and like you you ahve to get up to solve it!

but i does work, promice

Enygma

I don't know if you've read Neal Stephensons 'A Diamond Age' but part of what you're saying reminds me of a group of people in the book that use nanotechnology embedded in the body to process tiny amounts of data. Nanosite's (tiny machines only a few atoms big) were passed through bodily fluids, and data shared and processed by the collective. Sounds a bit borgy really.

But the point is you could still, in theory at least harness some of the power of your brain as you sleep using technology rather than waiting for the human race to evolve. Imagine a "machine" that could read the electrons buzzing about your brain and manipulate them into a predefined proccess such as a problem that you'd like to solve. Yeah, before you go to sleep you'd just tell this "machine" or whatever it is, what you'd like to dream about. Then it's possible that in your sleep you could be tweaking that compression algorithm you're working on or whatever. Sweet!

Thing is, these things would end up being sold in sex shops! LOL!

bit off topic actually, soz

Dr. Loon

I reckon some of you on here who aren't gettin enough sleep are setting yourselves up for a heart attack\panic attack, mental breakdown.

When we're young it's easy enough to go without sleep, but later on if you keep on this way, you'll be fúcked I reckon. We sleep for a reason, the body gets tired for a reason, your stomach rumbles for a reason, you feel the need for liquid for a reason, eyes hurt for a reason. The body's a complex thing, but everything happens for a reason.

If you fall asleep in the barbers chair.... you need more fúckin sleep. Snap out of it, and get yourself into a pattern of sleep. I myself often have major problems sleeping. Doctor suggested sleeping tablets, but i didn't want to go that route. It's not natural.

The idea of using technology to 'fool' the mind into thinking you don't want sleep is rediculous as well, not natural, and I doubt it'll ever happen. Then again, you never know.

Everyone needs a break. Phobos, I suggest you start gettin some kip.

phobos

Cheers for the advice Loon , but usually in my threads that revolve around deep dissussions, they tend to evolve beyond the points that were expressed initially. Take for example I started this thread, with the title "Sleeping Problem". The reason I did this is because it's a term that people are more acquated with, and can often relate to. It was a way for me to attract attention. I'm not saying that it's a completely off topic title, but I call it off topic, because I don't think it's a problem.

At our current stage of evolution, it proposes a probem, as you already said (and others before you). But there are times when I get carried away with my thoughts of future advancements, and when I finally snap out of it, I feel sad, that I have to settle for where we are now. My way of combating this is to strive the best I can towards a better future. There are many things I would like to improve, but sleep patterns is something that needs addressing ASAP. Take for example how people lived there lives 50, 100, 1000 years ago. In each one of those time frames people thought differently. If I told someone a 100 years ago that I would be creating machines in the future that could work on, and on, irrelavent to the time of day, they probably wouldn't believe me. Not only that, they would probably call me MAD for even wanting a machine to do that. Like why in the hell would we need to work at night?. Today we look at those kind of systems, and take no notice, because they are part an parcel of every day life. At what point did we accept the need for them.

Taking what I've said in to consideration, I ask you is the need for human beings to be able to use their positive energy (brain power) at all times of day, such a far fetched idea. I think one of the things that inhibits future advancements its the concept of "impossibility". Impossible is a term we use now, because we can't find an immediate sollution. But 100 years ago we would have thought that flying across the world at the speed of sound while interacting with wireless computer networks was impossible. Can anyone see what I'm trying to say here. This topic has evolved passed the notion of whether or not we need sleep (or even why we should sleep). I think in order to best use our brain power today, is to keep an open mind, not to brand anything impossible, and never try and make excuses for the need of things we might have/use in the future. We live a certain way now (which includes sleep), but in the future we may life a different way (that doesn't include sleeping). Medicine could have ruled that out (who knows). So we now reach a point where your body doesn't need sleep, so why try and sleep. Instead use that time to accomplish more with the time you have. Accomplishing more doesn't necessarily have to mean "work", it could mean having the time to interact with loved ones (who knows), but the important think to note is that we will have more time, and that's something that everyone needs.

Does anyone agree with my vision? (or firstly do you understand it?), if not I will try and explain it better. Even though I have all these "crazy" ideas, I often find it difficult to express them in a form tangable by others. Now that's a probem

;-phobos-)

[Preacher]

I understand what you're saying Phobos. Infact I "suffer" from the same problem myself. But this is my way of rationalising why we dont need sleep anymore:

300 years ago all work had to be done during the day due to the need for sunlight. Nightime was a completly unproductive period. During the day people would work, to make a living. Alot of these jobs are what we now refer to as Primary Activities (i.e. Farming). This was physically demanding and lead to people being tired, due to muscle strain.

Whereas now, 2002, we have electricity. A constant source of light to do work by. When you are in Dublin you cant see the stars and chances are you will have difficulty finding an unlit area. Shops and restaurants are open 24hours. Everywhere is alive. There's no calm. You can site in a room with plenty of light, all modern facilities at your disposal doing whatever you want. This leads you to believe that time is being stolen from you.

Electricity is able to run all day. Days and nights fade seamlessly into one and other. Any meal can be eaten anytime. This 24hour culture leads us to believe we are invincible (or at least some of us).

I cant make any sense out of it but I know i would take a chemical alternative to sleep if it was available. Sleep is a weakness and we need to get curb it somehow. Personally im not too keen on letting nature taking its course since by the time we evolve this or any other ability we will have exploited every resource on the planet we depend on.

My 2 cents...

-Preacher

Mills

I know what you mean about the 24hour culture, like I say above when I don't have anywhere I need to be during the day, I'll have a really erratic sleeping pattern, going to bed whenever I feel tired, only eating when I get hungry, that sort of thing.

I don't think I'd take a chemical alternative to sleep if it was available though, I enjoy sleep too much, I love lying in bed when I'm really tired, and knowing I'll soon be asleep and I love waking up and not having to get out of bed until I feel like it, and just lying there as long as I like (usually an hour or two).

Enygma

This might be hard if it doesn't agree with your schedule and it seems it can be dangerous if you deviate from the pattern. Otherwise it's supposed to be quite safe.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/4/15/103358/720

I think Kramer tried this on Seinfeld once. Kept falling asleep standing up though

phobos

Cheers for that Enygma, It looks interesting to say the least. I don't have time to look at it now, but I will later

From the past few posts I can see that people completely understand what I'm talking about. Cheers for expressing your opinions on our better defined topic

;-phobos-)

roar_ie

i have this kind of problem. i find i seem to work best late at night. However if i don't get a decent 8 hrs or so sleep a day i don't work well..... i really kind of enjoy sleeping and getting rest i know i need and i usually come back the next day refreshed and more likely to do well.

Altomaximus

Originally posted by phobos
Anybody that knows me well enough, would know that I'm the type of person that would sacrifice sleep, at any cost to complete projects or pursue ideas etc. The problem with me is that I live in a 24hr world, and my body can't keep up. This might sound strange, but I always find I would prefer not to have to sleep at all because it gets in the way, when I should be doing other things.

Take for example it's 11pm at night, I sit down to write some code, and all of a sudden, some programming power from above inspires me, and all sorts of ideas fill my mind. I don't notice the time, and turn around and notice light coming through my curtains; it's the following morning. I go down stairs, have breakfast, and await exhaustion. I know that the majourity of human activity is performed during the daylight hours, but at around 11am the following morning I just drop, and can't think straight.

As programming is concerned I could never do it properly in the morning (even after a good nights sleep), I do my best work when I've been up for a while (the longer the better, hence the whole, being able to program @ night thing). Ever since I was a child and my friends and I would have sleepover parties etc, I remember I always was the last one to fall asleep (often when everyone else was just waking up). The problem is that @ night I just can't sleep, it's the time of day that I just can't settle my head, and stop all those ideas from popping in, that drive me to continue my work.

At first I thought it was kinda kewl that I was getting all these neat ideas, but in all fairness it's destroying my day-time life, and my body just can't stay awake all the time. I would love if I could never sleep so I wouldnt' have to worry about things like this. But because I'm stuck with this stupid human body, I have to obey it's clock, and treat it as best as I can. But I'm stuck in the middle between my overly active mind, and my body. Sounds kinda funny that bit, lol

Has anyone else ever been in the same situation?, I would love to hear how you got it under control

Cheers,

;-phobos-)

Some people are morning people. Some people are night people. Some people are middle of the day people. It's something to do with your body temperature cycle. Your creativity will be at it's maximum at the peak of this cycle for you.

There are other longer term cycles - eg biorythmical which cover physical, intellectual and emotional intelligence. Just another clock ticking with a bigger wheel.

Go with the flow. The clock is just an artificial invention based on the movement of the planets.

Altomax