It's Your Choice!

Boston

No, i dont, two seperate sets of people which sometimes overlapes

bonkey

Originally posted by Boston
Its more realistic that the ira would have a clam on marching down o Connell street, I presume you would have no problem with that,

The last time I checked, the IRA was a proscribed organisation in this country. Membership is a crime. Ergo, they could not be granted permission to stage a march on O'Connell Street, and any unauthorised march would be illegal.

The Orange Order, on the other hand (despite you branding them as hate-mongers due to the actions of a minority of their members) are a legal organisation, with no history of violence within this nation since its inception. Therefore, there are no just grounds for preventing them from marching, bar intolerance.

I am willing to allow them to walk down O'Connell Street. Even if they wish to be triumphalist about pulling one over the stupid "republicans", they are perfectly entitled to do so in a lawful manner. At the end of the day, I will not be dragged down into playing their petty little game of one-up-manship. I choose to ignore them.

You, on the other hand, would prevent them, and allow them to see themselves as persecuted - which gives them exactly the same type of strength you rightly claim persecution has given the catholics in the North.

I haven’t shown intolerance towards anybody,

Please explain then how I misunderstood the following quote from you :

we have the organge order in the south and we except them once they keep out of our face and do what we tell them.

If I've misunderstood you, I apologise, but to be quite honest, unless you didnt mean that statement, then while you may believe you are being tolerant, you are most definitely not - you are being oppressive.

and if your going to start twisting things in a thread, how about this, your family were intolerance to what was going on in the north, the level of intolerance shown in this thread by you is outstanding, especially towards my view point.

I've supplied a quote to show why I believe you are being intolerant. Would you care to reciprocate and show why my family are intolerant, or are you just being petty and making snide remarks in the hope of rising me?

As for me being intolerant to your view - I'm not intolerant, I am simply disagreeing with you. You are entitled to your view, but I am simply pointing out the hyprocacy of claiming tolerance whilst taking an oppressive stance against a legal organisation. You, on the other hand, seem to be taking this criticism very, very personally. Maybe you'd prefer if I stopped.

it all depends, as ive said, with enough fear and repression we are all capable of anything, that is my point,

And its true. Which should make every single one of us who realises it very, very careful about oppressing or repressing anyone - including those we dont like - without just grounds.

Again don’t twist what i said, I didn’t say my local was a miniature northern Ireland,

No, your exact words were :

my neighbours who condem people in the north for being violent, would make the biolence in the north look like a tea party

This was, and is, absolute rubbish. If you believe that your locale has anything approaching the violence in the North, you are completely misguided.

This has nothing to do with your basic argument about intolerance - it is to do with your comparison.

Yes, there is racism, vigilanteism, and plenty of other isms in Ireland. There is intolerance aplenty too - thats not unique to the North. However, there is a significant difference between isolated incidents, and large-scale organised terrorist warring factions which perpetuate across generations. This is a whole different level of intolerance, and a whole different level of violence.

You cannot compare one with the other, and it is not by any means determinable that one would scale into the other.

Nope what I said is I wouldn’t allow they to march down o Connell street, a historically republican street which they would have zero reason to walk down other then to denigrate and humiliate sections of the community.

You seriously believe this, dont you. You seriously believe that a tiny group of individuals wanted to organise a march down the most republican street in the republic so they could feel superior to us. They would feel superior to us, becuase we consented to allow them the privilege of marching on our street.

And instead of that, you would have them feel persecuted and denied their equal rights - which is exactly what you are arguing is what drives us to violence.

Can you explain the logic to this?

Me - I'd let them walk down the street, and turn a blind eye. I wouldnt laugh, I wouldnt jeer, and I wouldnt care whether or not I was on the street at the time. And if an orangeman came up to me and said "we walked down O'Connell Street today - what a great day for the Orange Order", my reply would be "I can walk down it 365 days a year - whats your point".

Tolerance often involves ignoring the ignorance of the other person, as opposed to retaliating to it.

that’s surprising how wrong you can read a person isn’t it, im very tolerant, because I generally don’t give a damn, if you leave me alone ill leave you alone even if you’re an affront to my way I life, we probably wont be friends but so what.

So what have the Orange Order done to you that you wouldnt want them walking down O'Connell Street. Unless they're doing something to you personally, then they're leaving you alone, and you say you're very tolerant.....so where's the problem?

At the end of the day, Boston, I'm not twisting your words. You are saying two different things, and i'm simply trying to point that out . You can claim tolerance all you want, but while you preach denial of rights, then you are not being entirely honest about that tolerance.

jc

Boston

As for me being intolerant to your view - I'm not intolerant, I am simply disagreeing with you. You are entitled to your view, but I am simply pointing out the hyprocacy of claiming tolerance whilst taking such an extreme stance against a legal organization. You, on the other hand, seem to be taking this criticism very, very personally. Maybe you'd prefer if I stopped.

tolerance is a relative thing, one minute you have it the next you don't, I don't think it is fair to say someone is or isn't tolerant full stop.

You seriously believe this, don't you

I seriously believe if they tied they wouldn't get 10 foot, weather that is a good or bad thing I don't know, but as I said certain things you don't tolerant, a people making a mockery of your history and culture is one of them.

I don't actually believe they will, its just an example we got stuck on.

one thing, they don't have the right to march down any road if the authorities feel it will cause violence, weather they start it or not.

Me - I'd let them walk down the street, and turn a blind eye. I wouldn't laugh, I wouldn't jeer, and I wouldn't care whether or not I was on the street at the time. And if an Orangeman came up to me and said "we walked down O'Connell Street today - what a great day for the Orange Order", my reply would be "I can walk down it 365 days a year - what's your point".

see that's were me differ, it like someone coming up to you and saying "hey I screwed your wife last night" and you responding with "so what, I do that 365 days a year"

its an insult, and I was thought to stand up when someone tries to walk on you, maybe you were brought up in a place were turning the other way but I didn't.

Nice dodge on the IRA question, but should a day come were they weren't illegal would you allow say the omagh bombers to march in Dublin

it all comes down to, I wouldn't like it, and I know that your probably wouldn't like it, but the difference between you and me is your convictions would prevent you from doing something about it, were as mine would demand it.


The original statement(forget quotes) was we have the potential to be just as intolerant as anybody in the north(not that we are), and dining that will only make it easier to come to pass. i think this is a pretty true statement

Alias Bob

well, since you slagged of my typos in another thread i feel its my duty to point out your rather poor grasp of the english language

That's a fair comment, I don't believe that I will ever have a full command of the English language, yet you could try running your post through a spell check yourself now and again perhaps?

why have you cast your gaze over ireland.

Read the whole thread for the answer is there

would you believe that 50% of users of this board dislike you purely because you are english? you have never done anything to ireland have you? you have never raped or murdered any irish person. you were not involved in a reign of tyrany on this land were you. in fact you have probably never even said a bad word to an irish person (with me being the acception) so why do people hate you? Because you are english. and because the irish hate the english.

What a childish and ridiculous statement to make.

The kind of remark you could expect from a six year old in a play ground. Whenever one says or does anything that you do not agree with, you say, "I hate you, I hate you

o, now that you can see so clearly into the irish way of life alias bob, why dont you tell me how you can see so bloody clearly at the northern situation and see how to fix it. because lets face it, decades of people who can spell properly havent managed it, what makes you able to see it?
You wont answer the question will you?

A problem whatever it is, is only as difficult as you perceive it to be

The main problem across the whole of Ireland is the divisions people have created.

Each division comes with its own set of laws thus each division restricts the other. These divisions have been created over many hundreds of years and each comes with its own scar to remind members of that division as to why it was created in the first place. The logical way to deal with this situation, is to make an unanimous decision to, 'Drop all trivial indifference's for the betterment of the majority." For as it is, these divisions and indifference's are your own man made prison restricting where one goes and what one does

Perhaps the only people who will not want this to work, are those who like the school bully, only feel strong when in his own little gang. These people are normally those who seek to camaflarge their feelings of social insecurity and inferiority be such means.

So wrong again WhiteWash to latter part of your question.

The one thing that is very distinctive about your posts WhiteWash, is the crude abuse when someone doesn't happen to agree with your own particular point of view. So remember I am talking from the zone of neutrality. The level of intolerance shown in this thread by you is outstanding,


Yours
Alias Bob
Don't forget my Guinness lads
:cool:

bonkey

Originally posted by Boston
I seriously believe if they tied they wouldn't get 10 foot, weather that is a good or bad thing I don't know, but as I said certain things you don't tolerant, a people making a mockery of your history and culture is one of them.
<snip>
one thing, they don't have the right to march down any road if the authorities feel it will cause violence, weather they start it or not.

Just for reference, and I may be wrong on this one, but the authorities granted the Orange Order permission to march down O'Connell Street in 99 or 2000 - for the first time in something over 60 years. Sinn Fein objected strenuously, and made noises about arranging mass protests against the march, scheduled to clash with the march itself.

The Orange Order, still in possession of permission to march, voluntarily cancelled their march, for fears of violence.

Now, its entirely possible that this was nothing but an incredibly clever reaction to what appeared to be a lose-lose situation, but to be honest, I think they were honestly trying to do the right thing.

If we look at membership of the Orange Order, it is not all republican-hating zealots who want nothing more than to dish out a good dose of oppression or triumphalism. For some, it still is that, but for many - the vast majority I would think - it is simply an organisation where they can celebrate their own beliefs. The zealots, incidentally, seem completely confined to the North, as the OO do have a presence in the republic, and I cant honestly remember the last time I heard of trouble associated with them.

see that's were me differ, it like someone coming up to you and saying "hey I screwed your wife last night" and you responding with "so what, I do that 365 days a year"

Touche. Fair point. However, I would go so far as to say "its just a street mate". Whilst very proud of my nationality, I find very little pride in remembering or honouring war. I would prefer to look on O'Connell Street as a reminder that hopefully, we will never have to resort to such levels of violence again, not as the crowning glory of our armed conflicts. Thus, for me, it is not perhaps as significant an area to you.

I would point out (and please dont take this the wrong way) that your protective feelings towards a republican "symbol" are what seem to be your reasons for opposing a group like the OO from walking down it. If you think about it, the conflict is arising when two representative symbols are brought into proximity - their Order and your Street. Now, sure, they are the ones looking to march there, but we should genuinely ask if are they doing so to antagonise you, or because it is the most appropriate and traditional location in Dublin for any march to be held. I dont think you can ever get an honest answer to that, but if you refuse to be antagonised, they cant win.

OK - you would see it as a moral affront to allow them to march down said street, but really - what would it change. Would it erase the events of history which have far more significance then their silly little parade? Would the street be any less republican? I honestly dont think so.

its an insult, and I was thought to stand up when someone tries to walk on you, maybe you were brought up in a place were turning the other way but I didn't.

I was taught that there is a time to fight, and a time to walk away. I was also taught something which was best put (although cheesily) by Captain Sheridan in Babylon 5 : Never start a fight, but always finish it.

I can live with insults. I've been insulted in many ways for much of my childhood - guess I was just one of those "lucky" kids people liked to pick on. I learned to ignore most of it, because that was the best victory I could gain. Youd be amazed how annoyed people get when theyre trying to antagonise you and you simply turn a deaf ear - and how quickly they get tired of playing their petty little games.

Nice dodge on the IRA question,

Thank you

but should a day come were they weren't illegal would you allow say the omagh bombers to march in Dublin

I would leave it to the authorities to decide, but in general, I would say that if these men had been officially pardoned of any convicted crimes, and their organisation was not illegal, then they have every right to march, and only intolerance would stand in their way.

See - its funny - most people consider themselves to be law abiding, but when the law makes a decision that they disagree with strongly enough, it gets turned around into "that was a stupid decision, and they shouldnt have made it", which leads to protests and or violence.

Lets assume the IRA was no longer banned. Lets assume its convicted members were released in some form of clemency deal. By LAW these people are now ordinary citizens, and the law has no grounds to prevent their marching. People, on the other hand, are willing to ignore the law when it suits them and say "but they did.....". Newsflash - we live in a democracy - and ultimately we must abide by the decisions of our elected representatives whether or not we agree with them. This is the price of freedom, but some people refuse to pay that price.

Have you ever wondered what would happen if instead of mass protests against this sort of thing, people simply boycotted O'Connell Street for a day. Let them march through a barren urban wilderness, and see how many times they retry it. The point of a march is to be seen. Deny them that if you will.

it all comes down to, I wouldn't like it, and I know that your probably wouldn't like it, but the difference between you and me is your convictions would prevent you from doing something about it, were as mine would demand it.

My convictions would demand that I respect the laws decision to return these people from criminal status to being citizens. My personal feelings would be that they should not be allowed to march, and if asked to vote or express an opinion prior to consent, that is how I would side. However, once the law grants them their freedom, and the local government grants them permission to march, my convictions force me to abide by the law and allow them to march.

The original statement(forget quotes) was we have the potential to be just as intolerant as anybody in the north(not that we are), and dining that will only make it easier to come to pass. i think this is a pretty true statement

OK - all the crap aside, you are mostly correct in this, but its missing the point. EVERYONE has the potential to be intolerant. However, it is the recognition of this, plus the willingness not to give in to it, which is needed, both in the North, here, and anywhere else.

I think, in general, people in the Republic are more tolerant, but this is not genetic, its social. Sure, if we had gone through the same history as the North, we would probably be in the same boat as them today. We didnt, and we should be grateful. What we should be doing (IMHO) is trying to encourage them to rise above their intolerance, rather than encouraging and legitimsing the violence by saying "if I was there, I'd react the same way". If I was there, I wouldnt react the same way.

It may sound trite, but It occurred to me that the problem in the North can be summed up very simply.

1) Live in The Republic (for nationalists)
or
1) Live in The UK (for Unionists)

2) Live in The North Of Ireland

3) Live in Peace.

Candidates may choose any two of the above options.


My family chose options 1 and 3. They decided that capitulation was the lesser of two evils when faced with politely veiled threats about their continued existence in the North. This was their "best solution" to a bad situation, and I respect that. Its not for everyone, but to be honest, I think everyone should look at a situation with includes option 3. Unfortunately, too many people choose options 1 and 2.

jc

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Alias Bob


That's a fair comment, I don't believe that I will ever have a full command of the English language, yet you could try running your post through a spell check yourself now and again perhaps?

:

but im not the one who is worried about my spelling.
you pointed it out first.

Originally posted by Alias Bob
Read the whole thread for the answer is there

no, actually it isnt, why dont you point it out to me again?
please

Originally posted by Alias Bob


What a childish and ridiculous statement to make.

The kind of remark you could expect from a six year old in a play ground. Whenever one says or does anything that you do not agree with, you say, "I hate you, I hate you

well, it just goes to show exactly how little you know about ireland and irish people.
you see its true.
if oyu met someone in a pub over here and said 'hi, im english' theyd probably tell you to fúck off.
you dont understand at all the mentality of the irish.
come to think of it you seem to be living in some delusional fantasy world where all the fairies are happy and loving?

Originally posted by Alias Bob

A problem whatever it is, is only as difficult as you perceive it to be

right........
yoda in the house

Originally posted by Alias Bob
The main problem across the whole of Ireland is the divisions people have created.

really? when did you get this brainwave?
why dont you ever give examples to back up these grand statements?
im really interested. no really, i am.
is this how you figured out the rest of the worlds problems?

Originally posted by Alias Bob


Each division comes with its own set of laws thus each division restricts the other. These divisions have been created over many hundreds of years and each comes with its own scar to remind members of that division as to why it was created in the first place. The logical way to deal with this situation, is to make an unanimous decision to, 'Drop all trivial indifference's for the betterment of the majority." For as it is, these divisions and indifference's are your own man made prison restricting where one goes and what one does

these are people youre dealing with.
they all have their own ideas and own agendas. logic has not really got a place when it comes to peoples emotions.
surely a wise diplomat such as your self would know this.

Originally posted by Alias Bob
So wrong again WhiteWash to latter part of your question.

i dont think so. you have no grasp of any situation in the north, so you cant possibly call my analysis into question

Originally posted by Alias Bob

The one thing that is very distinctive about your posts WhiteWash, is the crude abuse when someone doesn't happen to agree with your own particular point of view. So remember I am talking from the zone of neutrality. The level of intolerance shown in this thread by you is outstanding,

i know, its awful but i get annoyed when people like you continue to talk to shíte. zone of neutrality?
dont you mean cloud cookoo land?
and no i dont get abusive when i disagree, i do however call into question everything you have said because you know nothing.
youve said nothing useful. you obviously dont have a clue and to be honest you tell outrageous lies.
so what does it matter?
you still keep coming back for more, so i am happy to sit here all day and tell you that you know nothing, your opinion is pretty much worthless and youre just a complete muppet.

by the way, why dont you tell us all about how you saved china and met the russians.
all while running your huge business that defends people against british governement injustice, while haveing half the british MPs as your best mates, nd yet you still cant manage to put forward a single decent comment about this topic let alone spell correctly.

you know what, i think i'll sit here all day and come out with little sayings that i pick out of a fortune ookie, because thats exactly what you seem to do.

lets start with this one.

'why cant we all just get along'

Clintons Cat

if you met someone in a pub over here and said 'hi, im english' theyd probably tell you to fúck off.

Its true,they are like that in Surrey.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Clintons Cat


Its true,they are like that in Surrey.

youve obviously never been in dublin so.
its worse down the country as well.

Boston

The orange order were actually invited(by the then president i think) to march, to dementrate this so called tolerance of the south. of course it never went ahead.

see i dont believe we live in a democracy, i believe that such a state is a mere fantasy, that we live in a high bread society.

i believe, as a person in pocession of my facilities, that ive the right to question any laws of the goeverment, because onlike a perfect democracy not all laws are past with the best interest of the people at heart. there certain things i see the goverment doing and i say thats going to fail, and it does, maybe thats because i deal with the reality of a situation and not what should happen. you make a law which inheriantly pisses people off, then people wont follow it, it will become unenforcable. i wont pay my bin charges because bins just wont work in my area, to many things that will go wrong.

But back to the orange order, as much as i dont like praticualar elements of the orange order, and as much as id protest if they were to march on o connell street. I wouldnt take a mans life over it, and i wouldnt beat someone up over it.

maybe in our minds where as intolerant as the north, but in our hearts were not.

Boston

if someone made a point about saying im english, i mean made an issue of it(you may thing were retarded but we generaly get if from the way you talk) then id be like, whats this guys game, whats he one about.

otherwise id make some crack about we cant all be prefect and move on

WhiteWashMan

you never answered me boston..

by orange do you mean protestants?

Boston

i did

Clintons Cat

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan


youve obviously never been in dublin so.
its worse down the country as well.

Yes i know. <edited for stating the obvious edit>
On the reverse if you went into a surrey/guildford pub and went up to someone and said "i'm Irish",you would probally get the same response.
different world same $hite

bonkey

Originally posted by Boston
But back to the orange order, as much as i dont like praticualar elements of the orange order, and as much as id protest if they were to march on o connell street. I wouldnt take a mans life over it, and i wouldnt beat someone up over it.

See - now we're back on common ground, because I would support your right to protest - as long as that was kept peaceful.

Where my problem came in was when you were saying that you "wouldnt allow" them to march on O'Connell Street. Obviously a failure in communication, but look at the result - cries of intolerance, heated words....etc. etc.

Its easy to see how intolerance can breed so quickly, which is why I believe that tolerance is the key. Without it, you can get nowhere.

jc

p.s. WWM - if you're baiting Bob just to throw an "intolerance" line at him later....point made. On the other hand, if you're just looking for a bitching target, then take it off the forum please.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Clintons Cat


Yes i know. <edited for stating the obvious edit>
On the reverse if you went into a surrey/guildford pub and went up to someone and said "i'm Irish",you would probally get the same response.
different world same $hite

im not talking about guildford, and we arent talking about england, and youd be surprised. the english are a lot more tolerant than the irish.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Boston
i did

so youd throw me in as some osrt of orange person would you?
i guess that makes me a killer etc etc etc etc does it?
but i guess its ok that you could live in the same neighbourhood as me as long as i did as you say right?

does a difference in religion really mean that much to you?
with views like yours, i wouldnt want to share your life. relly i wouldnt.

Boston

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan


so youd throw me in as some osrt of orange person would you?
i guess that makes me a killer etc etc etc etc does it?
but i guess its ok that you could live in the same neighbourhood as me as long as i did as you say right?

does a difference in religion really mean that much to you?
with views like yours, i wouldnt want to share your life. relly i wouldnt.

what the **** ar you talking about? did you actually read what i said?

you never answered me though?

No, i dont, two seperate sets of people which sometimes overlapes

i dont care about religion, this thread to me hasnt been about religion. do you really think im the type of person you could label as "die hard catholic" i dont think so

Clintons Cat

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan


im not talking about guildford, and we arent talking about england, and youd be surprised. the english are a lot more tolerant than the irish.

no i beleive you,anecdotal evidence from most of my Irish friends would support this.
your arguement is perfectly valid,and i agree with it and your stance upon it, As regards alias bobs "hey everyone cast off your religion and laws and like the russians and chinese soon will do" dawn of the age of aquarius new age guff.
Sorry if my "surry joke" struck the wrong cord,i was attempting to make a point of the universal truth of intolerence
And having in my youth been beaten severly by rascists for being in the wrong pub in the wrong part of town,i think it fair that i occasionally question the generalisation that the english are a uniquly tolerent nation.

Boston

I have a dream, that some day, all our children, english irish, prodtestant and catholic can come together in mutual repect, driven by our shared hatred of the americans