It's Your Choice!

Alias Bob

When religion is used as a tool so a to enforce ones will upon another it loses all credibility. We are all brothers and sisters under the skin, regardless of race religion colour or what. To divide communities up into to sections, merely means that your are enforcing your will upon another, nothing more, and nothing less.

There are good and evil amidst us all, we must think of the future and not dwell in the past, if the future is to be worth having.

When I see what people do unto others, it is painful for me to watch, so if you have an ounce of true belief in a hereafter act accordingly.

I have no religion as I have abandoned it, or to be more correct it abandoned me, yet I believe my deeds that I do unto others as help are far better than words alone.

Yes, I do believe in a creator of all things, yet not in the context described within traditional books.

I see Ireland as a wonderful place, with its countryside's, lakes, streams, its a shame that this wonderful country is split over such a thing called religion which can't be that good a thing, if it does so much damage, now can it?

Now. I don't know whether this bulletin board is north of the border or not. But what I do know is that you care, enough to fight for what you believe in so if that energy was used and directed to end this awful travesty that exists, just wouldn't it be great to have lots of street parties in celebration of coming together to mark years of pain.

You people are just to dam good to go to waste and that's for sure, so if I have confidence in you, so should you have.


Yours
Alias Bob

Celt

I (and most people I know), dont care about Northern Ireland unless it affects us directly.
Same goes for sectarianism and religion.
I dont particularly want to be part of an United Ireland either.

Sand

Think this belongs on Humanities to be honest. Or put it somewhere where certain indignant people wont get their claws sunk into it:)

billy the squid

Now. I don't know whether this bulletin board is north of the border or not. But what I do know is that you care, enough to fight for what you believe in so if that energy was used and directed to end this awful travesty that exists, just wouldn't it be great to have lots of street parties in celebration of coming together to mark years of pain.

The way i see it is that a bunch of drug dealing criminals are using the differences between the two communities to justify their existance. that is where the violence is originating.

As for the likes of Ian Pasley and his friends, their politicians. its their jobs to get noticed.

A united Ireland would put an end to the IRAs racketeering so before you can have a united anything whether it be a united Ireland or a united Kingdom you will need to remove the criminal element from the equasion.

That means treating these criminal gangs like criminals and not political prisoners. The bombs are just for show notice how they try not to kill anyone yet they put the fear of god into people.

and before anyone asks " what about the omagh bomb was that for show?" yes it was but it went horribly wrong for them.

You dont see any suiside bombers in the IRA or the UVF or whatever these gangsters call themselves

Clintons Cat

speaking of religion in the fashionable language of "respect." What is there to respect in any of this, or in any of the crimes now being committed almost daily around the world in religion's dreaded name? How well, with what fatal results, religion erects totems, and how willing we are to kill for them! And when we've done it often enough, the deadening of affect that results makes it easier to do it again.

This quote from Rushdie was from a commentry on the Recent Hindu pollitically motivated violence against Muslims,it seems as applicable here.

Alias Bob

The way I see it is that a bunch of drug dealing criminals are using the differences between the two communities to justify their existance. that is where the violence is originating.

I do admit that I am already aware of this fact. Yet as I see it you the people of Ireland are the real power not they. You out number, so you must out smart, even the politicians only revel in their own self importance, yet it is you, who matter not they so much.

Your time is now and time waits for no one, so ultimately you are the real power in Ireland.

I am told that it is Paddy's Day this sunday, so prove Paddy still lives as your forefathers would have done and make Ireland become the place it was many years ago, for if a man can unshackle his chains, so he should, if he is to be truly free.


Yours
Alias Bob
Don't forget my Guinness lads!

:cool]

bonkey

If there is one thing which the troubles in the North have taught me over my lifetime, its that peace can never be enforced. Peace can only be adhered to.

While fanatic and extremist dissidents exist, who are willing to turn to violence to further their aims, peace cannot exist. We cannot make Northern Ireland peaceful, we can only help peace come about - which is already being done.

There is much distrust on both sides. Neither side is willing to reach full compromise, due to this lack of trust, to the oft-held notion that compromise equates to admitting defeat of some form, and to the absolute belief in one's own right.

Organised religion, organised politics, and organised crime all play their part in this ongoing travesty, but there is no simple solution. To believe anything otherwise is only to court further disaster.

jc

Alias Bob

Organised religion, organised politics, and organised crime all play their part in this ongoing travesty, but there is no simple solution. To believe anything otherwise is only

If just one man on his own, can seek an audience with the Russian Ambassador and members of the Russian State Security Staff, at the height of the Kosovo crisis and deliver a long term peace plan, for an Eastern Strategic Alliance, what have you to fear?

Yes Gandalf, that's how I knew so much about the subject, as it was I who formulated the policy structure that was also later forwarded to The Chinese Government. Re: Bush the Warmonger Boards. IE

There is much distrust on both sides. Neither side is willing to reach full compromise, due to this lack of trust, to the oft-held notion that compromise equates to admitting defeat of some form, and to the absolute belief in one's own right.

Anyone can bury their heads in the sand (so to speak) and hope all will be OK.

You have proved to be strong in both intellect and courage, the only element missing is the will to make the final decision to say enough is enough, we are all Brothers and Sisters we stand together as one. Let no one come between us, and on that day Ireland will gain what most of its people have wanted for years, peace and the begining of an Indipendant Ireland.

This magnificent Country its people and its charm are far too good to waste. It can take just one man to start a war, yet it takes the commitment of all concerned to stop it. You don't lack courage and you certainly don't lack strengh, all you need is the will to make Paddy's Day, a day to remember for all time

Like I said, It's Your Chose.

Yours
Alias Bob

gandalf

Err Bob I think you have mixed myself and bonkey up, unless I have a split personality (must check if I have a bubbles account on this PC)

Gandalf.

Alias Bob

Err Bob I think you have mixed myself and bonkey up, unless I have a split personality (must check if I have a bubbles account on this PC)

No, I had not been confused between yourself and Bonkey, as I had used Bonkey's Quotes, yet I do see what you mean, as my English grammar needs much to be admired at times I will admit.

The reason I mentioned yourself in-context was, that I had assumed be it rightly or not from your posts in," Bush the Warmonger," that I had a direct relationship with this project. I am sorry if it sounded a little curt, it certainly wasn't meant to be I assure you.

As a matter of fact I greatly admire much of the content of your posts, as well as the little hints and tips which are much appreciated.

Yours
Alias Bob
Don't forget my Guinness lads.

:cool:

WhiteWashMan

you know what alias bob, sometimes i think you spend an awful lot of time doing drugs.....
really.

PHB

I am told that it is Paddy's Day this sunday, so prove Paddy still lives as your forefathers would have done and make Ireland become the place it was many years ago, for if a man can unshackle his chains, so he should, if he is to be truly free.

20 years ago?
IRA violance at its peak

40 years ago?
Massive public outcry againist human rights abuse in the north

80 years ago?
Brother fighting brother in a war over an oath and the north

150 years ago?
Land acts with the Ulster Custom crap, yeah those good days.

300 years ago?
Failed rebellion after failed rebellion

500 years ago?
Commonly raid the rest of the world for resources.

Which old ireland do you want exactly?

bonkey

Originally posted by Alias Bob
the only element missing is the will to make the final decision to say enough is enough, we are all Brothers and Sisters we stand together as one. Let no one come between us, and on that day Ireland will gain what most of its people have wanted for years, peace and the begining of an Indipendant Ireland.
[/B]

Herein lies the fallacy which I see espoused time and time again.

Most of the people on the island do not want a united independant Ireland. What they want is peace, but neither side in the dispute is willing to concede enough to obtain it.

As for lacking will....I dunno if you're addressing that to me, or to the group, but I'll explain my apparent lack of will to you....

Some years ago, I was on a summer camp organised by a group whos name I forget, but theyre a sister-organisation to Co-operation North.

Anyway....

During said camp, we had a mix of nationalities present, including about 16 people from the North. Every single one of them, without exception took the same line - that the new generation in the North of Ireland was sick of violence. That they wanted an end to the ongoing war which has caused so much grief. Regardless of religion or political belief, they all stood united in their want for peace. I was stunned. I was moved. I truly thought that the youth in Northern Ireland were a shining light for the future of our island and its two nations.

Of course, that all fell apart. Every nationality put a group together at some point to provide some entertainment - singing, music - that sort of thing. Anyway - the guys from the North were actually divided in two - into their traditional unionist and republican halves, because they were each asked to contribute something which was unique to their seperate heritages.

The republicans sang some rebel songs, and all was good. Everyone sang along, and we had a good time. After all - these werent rebels, right? They were advocates of peace who could sing these songs for enjoyment.

Then the unionist group stood up. They sang an Orange song. The republicans stood there and stared from the crowd. One of them standing beside me was fuming. When we were encouraged to sing along in the refrain, she grabbed my attention and several other peoples and whispered in varely contained fury "dont you dare sing along with that song". Her other republican friends, except for one, all took the same stance.

Peace? Tolerance? Standing together? I was with people who had grown up with the violence, who were openly admitting to being sick of the violence. People who could get along during the day-to-day parts of their lives, and who could even engage in sensible, non-emotive debate about the problems in their country.

But as soon as culture emerged, we had a classical reversion to form - intolerance of the other side.

Now, I've been in the North a lot. My family were politely asked to leave there in my dads youth. My mum n dad both grew up just south of the border, and as a result, I have spent significant time around the areas of Monaghan, Armagh, Enniskillen, with frequent forays to Belfast.

Not everyone is like those people I met on that camp. Some genuinely want peace, and are willing to reach compromise. Some, like my friends above, say they are, but the truth of their convictions becomes evident when its no longer a theoretical exercise. And some are even more extremist in their views.

I can say "we are all brothers and sisters, and lets stand as one", but unless everyone else chooses to stand with me, then I am wasting my time because the intolerant minorities will come between us.

I do not lack the conviction or the will to make the final decision.

Rather, I have seen enough to realise the futility of such an action. The people in the North, despite what they may believe, are not ready en masse to make the sacrifices that peace requires. Many are, but it was never the many who were the problem.

Peace has begun to emerge in the North. Given time and enough encouragement, the people of the North may one day stand up and say that they wish to stand together. On that day, I will applaud them, no matter where they choose to stand. However, until that day, all we can do is encourage any peace initiative, condemn any violence, and stand on the sidelines. Why? Because someone from the Republic cannot stand up and ask them all to join in unity, because this would mean being seen to give in to the republicans.

Perhaps an independant, neutral outsider can make such a stance - but for me? I do not lack the will.....but I realise that such an action on my part, coming from where I do, would ultimately only further polarise the situation, not help it.

Sometimes, not interfering is the best course to take.

jc

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Alias Bob
religion

unfortunately religion has nothing to do with todays troubles int he north either

Clintons Cat

Bonkey>A very good post.

Until people can see beyond their own "totems",the world will be condemed to a perpetual cycle of violence.
Terrorism plays upon peoples natural instinct in times of crisis to enshroud themselves within the security of their communities totems be they expressed by religion,flag,or song
To close their ears to the concerns of the other side.To see every injustice as a call to readdress through the expression of violence.
The perverse logic is that ultimately the terrorist derives a sense of legitimacy as the community protector .


Probally needs a bit more work,but I Hope that makes sense,

azezil

I see Ireland as a wonderful place, with its countryside's, lakes, streams, its a shame that this wonderful country is split over such a thing called religion which can't be that good a thing, if it does so much damage, now can it?

I am told that it is Paddy's Day this sunday, so prove Paddy still lives as your forefathers would have done and make Ireland become the place it was many years ago, for if a man can unshackle his chains, so he should, if he is to be truly free.

I found this amusing as St Patrick brought Catholicism to Ireland.

The violence up north is nolonger about race, creed, they're just fighting for the sake of fighting now. (IMO) Sure they'll say "there won't be peace till Ireland is free" etc. but if they truely respected the wishes of the Irish people they'd lay down their arms and leave it to the diplomats.

I was listening too the Gerry Ryan show a couple of months ago, Brenda was reporting from up the north, she was describing the scene. I gathered from her description that alot of the violence was being perpetrated by adolescent males. As any male will tell ya it doesn't take much to get ya goin at that age, they don't really give a crap about freedom, they've grown up listening to their parents stories then they reach their teens, emotions running high n they use it as an excuse to cause violence and mayhem.

Alias Bob

To Bonkey

That was an excellent post of yours, Dated 14-03-2002 08:46 AM.

Your statement appeared to give a clear and honest account of what has, perhaps happened many times before when one attempts to heal such a rift.

I honestly applaud your strength of character in being willing to discuss this openly I really do. I also value your point as to my outsider's point of view.

Sometimes it is an outsider who can see more clearly a way to overcome a particular problem, as they themselves, are not concerned directly with the overall complexities and only seek an immediate solution.

Yours
Alias Bob

WhiteWashMan

fair point, but what is the problem that can ve seen so clearly from afar?

Typedef

Originally posted by bonkey
If there is one thing which the troubles in the North have taught me over my lifetime, its that peace can never be enforced. Peace can only be adhered to.

quote - Albert Einstein originator of the theory of realitivity and Zionist "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding"

Boston

bonkey and excellent post but one point is flawed.

the point where you seemed to suggest that people in the south are more excepting and tolerant then those in the south.

i can tell you, if a loyalist community was living accross from my community, and behavign the same way as those in the north,

first i wouldnt be a lapest catholic,

second my neighbours who condem people in the north for being violent, would make the biolence in the north look like a tea party.

thrid, orange order tired to walk up o connell street they wouldnt get two foot

we have the organge order in the south and we except them once they keep out of our face and do what we tell them.

to the catholics in the north every road is o connell street, especially if it runs past their house.

so dont condem them, i saw alot of peoples atitudes turn when put to the test.

were no better then them in the north, if anything we're worse, because we pretend to be different

Alias Bob

To Boston

were no better then them in the north, if anything we're worse, because we pretend to be different

I say>>>
The above seems a straight forward honest reply.
________________________________________________

bonkey and excellent post but one point is flawed.

The point where you seemed to suggest that people in the south are more excepting and tolerant then those in the south.

I say>>>
We must all appreciate and applaud Bonkey's strength of character and willingness to bare his sole here on a message board, as he indeed has. Giving his account of what happened in his youth when an attempt was made to heal a rift.

If we take what is happening in Ireland as to segregation of society, lets examine what could indeed become a reality:

Each Street could become a separate unity of Irish society, then each household then what?

Before very long, you will have to gain permission by another section of Irish Society to go your local pub, or to go shopping or to go to work.

There is an old saying which is as true today as it was many years ago, "Divided we Fall United We Stand." So given this option, which do you prefer?

Yours
Alias Bob
Don't forget my Guinness lads.

Boston

I just like to make one thing clear, it the south most protestants and Catholics can get along fine, as it happens there is a small protestant community close to me, im referring to the fact that when faced with sectarianism and fear we don't know how we will react.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Alias Bob


I say>>>
We must all appreciate and applaud Bonkey's strength of character and willingness to bare his sole here on a message board, as he indeed has. Giving his account of what happened in his youth when an attempt was made to heal a rift.

If we take what is happening in Ireland as to segregation of society, lets examine what could indeed become a reality:

Each Street could become a separate unity of Irish society, then each household then what?

Before very long, you will have to gain permission by another section of Irish Society to go your local pub, or to go shopping or to go to work.

There is an old saying which is as true today as it was many years ago, "Divided we Fall United We Stand." So given this option, which do you prefer?

Yours
Alias Bob
Don't forget my Guinness lads.

again, what is the problem that is so obvious that we are all missing out on?
withreagrd to bonkeys sole, id suggest he keep his feet ont he ground and show his soul instead.

you live in england. you sould know all about racism.
or have you forgotten all that happened in leeds, bradford and oldham last year? i wsa lucky enough to get caught in leeds during race riots and its not a pretty picture.
so, do you think its the same issue here as it is in the north?
the south is only as accepting as it says, not as it acts.
you can be damn sure that if anyone tried to parade down oconnell street theres be mobs out for blood.
the south appears so accepting because we dont actually have to do anything. its easy to say you dont mind, but i know i have been abused from a dizzy height because i am a protestant and from the highly tolerant southern catholics.
i have been almost beaten up becasue i have said in jest that i suport rangers, a good proddy team.
seems tolerant to me......not.
there is bogotry galore in ireland, you just cant see it due to the fact the the north takes all the flak.
at least they are open and honest about it.

but getting serious for a moment here bob, what is it you are trying to say. i mean telling us about having to ask for permission to go to a certain part of town sems like a little bit of a leap of faith to me. what would lead us down these lines?
and do you actually have apoint, or are you just putting across some sort of obscure references that we haveto decipher in order to understand.

plus, i believe the saying was united we stand, divided we fall.
id still like to know exactly what the problem is though,a s you aparently see it, and yet generations of irish people havent managed to.
id also like to hear what you have to say about the race riots in england and how you propose to fix those.
and do you ask any ethnic minoritys in england if you can go and walk in their area, or is it just us irish that have to pick up the pieces after your country?

by the way, how did you become such an expert on the irish situation anyway. coz i'll tell you one thing, bbc and sky dont make for truthful news.....

Alias Bob

withreagrd to bonkeys sole, id suggest he keep his feet ont he ground and show his soul instead

The above takes courage and that's something the Irish have plenty of. and that's for sure. All you can manage to do, is slang the guy down.

you live in england. you sould know all about racism.or have you forgotten all that happened in leeds, bradford and oldham last year? i wsa lucky enough to get caught in leeds during race riots and its not a pretty picture

No, I certainly have not forgotten, as it is not what you are allowed to read, it is what goes on behind the scenes that you don't hear about that matters. That's why Sky News isn't worth a light, I will agree with you on that one. All they want to do is broadcast trouble, so by intensifying their broadcasts they make matters worse rather than better, for their are those who want to be seen hurling bricks or explosives. This is not a race issue, it's about so called religious segregation.

The one thing that is very distinctive about your posts WhieWash, is the crude abuse when someone doesn't happen to agree with your own particular point of view. So remember I am talking from the zone of neutrality.

For some time now, I have re-framed from replying to any of your abusive posts, yet as you have put so much effort and content into this last post it warrants a reply. Not so much for your sake, but for others.

There is also the fact that so long as we are corresponding and others are reading we maybe beginning to make some headway. It's when talking stops and violence begins that when trouble really starts. That's because some people just won't listen and try to honestly evaluate the other persons point of view.

Yours
Alias Bob
Don't forget my Guinness lads.

bonkey

Originally posted by Alias Bob
The above takes courage and that's something the Irish have plenty of. and that's for sure. All you can manage to do, is slang the guy down.

Actually, I think he was taking the piss out of your mis-spelling of soul, bob.

Originally posted by Boston
bonkey and excellent post but one point is flawed.

the point where you seemed to suggest that people in the south are more excepting and tolerant then those in the south.

I assume you mean that I implied ppl in the south are more tolerant/accepting than those in the north ???

Well, by and large they are. People in the south includes Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, and everyone else. In general (racism aside, which is a seperate issue), people have no issue with someone elses religion, until that religion is being shoved down their throats.

i can tell you, if a loyalist community was living accross from my community, and behavign the same way as those in the north

Then you would have a loyalist group who are not being tolerant and accepting of others. You suggest that you would have an extreme reaction, but that reaction is purely because your extreme loyalist group were not themselves being tolerant and accepting.

My dads family, once they left the north, settled in Monaghan. I spent a lot of time there as a kid, and saw a lot of things. This included Nationalist and Unionist marches, including (IIRC) an IRA funeral march, complete with balaclava-clad guard of honour.

In all cases bar one, I played in my grans front garden as the parade went by. On that one, my mum told me to come inside, but I still dont know why - there was never any trouble.

If people wanted to march, they were allowed to, as long as they were respectful of others.

This was Monaghan. In the mid to late 70s - one of the most violent periods in the north's history. When I went up there, I often went playing with my cousins and their friends. It was only in later years that I discovered that about 1/4 of them were from protestant families. Did it ever cause aggro? No. Not once. If anything, it was a good area for taking the piss out of each other.

I understand your reactions Boston. You would react to intolerance with intolerance. As would many Irish people. This, I can understand. What I cannot understand is people reacting to difference with intolerance. I accept that there are many in the Republic who would react this way, but I dont think its quite as bad as you say.

first i wouldnt be a lapest catholic,

I cant believe you are saying this. You are saying that you are a lapsed catholic because there isnt a stronghold of another religion in the locality to fight with? Are you serious?

second my neighbours who condem people in the north for being violent, would make the biolence in the north look like a tea party.

Do you really think so? Do you really understand the nature of violence which has been ongoing for generations up there. You believe your neighbours are willing and able to maintain generations of hatred, violence and unspeakable cruelty over a difference in religious or political beliefs? Not only that, but given that you are using this as a representation of the Republic in general, you believe this of most people in our nation?

No offence mate, but I think you are way off base with that one. The closest the republic has come to showing the level of violence in the North was when communities went on anti-drug vigilante campaigns. Now, extend those campaigns over (say) 50 years, give both sides comparable numbers (instead of a community vs an individual), arm them, and then maybe you are approaching a very simplified version of the violence up North.

thrid, orange order tired to walk up o connell street they wouldnt get two foot

If the Orange Order wanted to march down OConnell Street in Dublin, I would probably support their right to do so. If bikers, farmers, gays & lesbians, SPUC, civil rights movements, nurses, taxi drivers and every other section of the community have the right to hold a march celebrating or protesting whatever, who are we to say that the Orange Order cannot do the same?

Your clearly intolerant stance is direct proof of your own argument, I'll grant you that, but I'm not sure how much of the nation would think the same way you do.

Maybe you're right - maybe the majority of the nation are intolerant of anyone who doesnt share their beliefs, but I never talked about the nation. I talked about me.

I will support anyone's right to exercise their equal civil rights as a citizen of this country, and will condemn anyone who wishes to suppress that. I dont have to like a group, because to be quite honest, I believe that most of these people, given enough rope, will hang themselves, or will prove themselves not to be the antichrists some would see them as.

jc

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Alias Bob


The above takes courage and that's something the Irish have plenty of. and that's for sure. All you can manage to do, is slang the guy down.

well, since you slagged of my typos in another thread i feel its my duty to point out your rather poor grasp of the english language.
it appears to be over our head.
are you a native english person?
is english your first language?

Originally posted by Alias Bob
No, I certainly have not forgotten, as it is not what you are allowed to read, it is what goes on behind the scenes that you don't hear about that matters. That's why Sky News isn't worth a light, I will agree with you on that one. All they want to do is broadcast trouble, so by intensifying their broadcasts they make matters worse rather than better, for their are those who want to be seen hurling bricks or explosives. This is not a race issue, it's about so called religious segregation.

how come you are not addressing your own countries problems?
why have you cast your gaze over ireland.
do you think you can solve the troubles?

v

Originally posted by Alias Bob

The one thing that is very distinctive about your posts WhieWash, is the crude abuse when someone doesn't happen to agree with your own particular point of view. So remember I am talking from the zone of neutrality.

sorry, i missed the abuse, can you point it out as ive noticed you havent actually backed up that statement with a quote.

Originally posted by Alias Bob
For some time now, I have re-framed from replying to any of your abusive posts, yet as you have put so much effort and content into this last post it warrants a reply. Not so much for your sake, but for others.
.

no, you have refrained. its the english getting in the way again isnt it.....?
ok, so you are going reply.
when?

Originally posted by Alias Bob

There is also the fact that so long as we are corresponding and others are reading we maybe beginning to make some headway. It's when talking stops and violence begins that when trouble really starts. That's because some people just won't listen and try to honestly evaluate the other persons point of view.

no. wrong.
its the minds of the people you have to open up and make more accepting.
would you believe that 50% of users of this board dislike you purely because you are english?
you have never done anything to ireland have you?
you have never raped or murdered any irish person.
you were not involved in a reign of tyrany on this land were you.
in fact you have probably never even said a bad word to an irish person (with me being the acception) so why do people hate you?
because you are english.
and because the irish hate the english.

so, now that you can see so clearly into the irish way of life alias bob, why dont you tell me how you can see so bloody clearly at the northern situation and see how to fix it. because lets face it, decades of people who can spell properly havent managed it, what makes you able to see it?
you wont answer the question will you?
becuase you dont have a clue what you are talking about.

and dont give me any more of your little philisophical phrases please, because you just sound stupid.
write the answer in plain english for all to see, or dont bather talking about what you plainly have no knowledge of.

or are you too busy with the americans and the chinese mr kissenger?

Boston

the mind set of the orange order, both north and south is off an order that supports murdering innocent people and is happy to celecbrate the mass murder of thousands of catholics by there founder.

i would no more allow the orange order to walk down o connell street then i would allow the ira,

as for beign a lapest catholic, its true, if half the catholics i know were in the north, they would be ultra catholic, because it wouldnt be about religion it would be about sides, and if you were being told that you cant do what you may want (ie be a catholic) you would become a hundread times more determined to do that thing even if yo unever hand the intentio nto do so in the first place

as for my neighbours, i dont know were you live but i live in a middle class area, were thos anti drug marchs took place, ive seen travillers attacked for going into my local and ive seen black homes burnt out. so dont tell me about intolerance, id have to say id have somethign in the back of my mind with the orange men, id never thrust one, but id could co exist beside one, i know afew as it happens, i dont deal with them i just know them in passing.

anyone of us, if were fearfull enough of the other side will do anything

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Boston
the mind set of the orange order, both north and south is off an order that supports murdering innocent people and is happy to celecbrate the mass murder of thousands of catholics by there founder.

i would no more allow the orange order to walk down o connell street then i would allow the ira,

as for beign a lapest catholic, its true, if half the catholics i know were in the north, they would be ultra catholic, because it wouldnt be about religion it would be about sides, and if you were being told that you cant do what you may want (ie be a catholic) you would become a hundread times more determined to do that thing even if yo unever hand the intentio nto do so in the first place

as for my neighbours, i dont know were you live but i live in a middle class area, were thos anti drug marchs took place, ive seen travillers attacked for going into my local and ive seen black homes burnt out. so dont tell me about intolerance, id have to say id have somethign in the back of my mind with the orange men, id never thrust one, but id could co exist beside one, i know afew as it happens, i dont deal with them i just know them in passing.

anyone of us, if were fearfull enough of the other side will do anything

by orange do you mean protestants?
like me?

bonkey

Originally posted by Boston
the mind set of the orange order, both north and south is off an order that supports murdering innocent people and is happy to celecbrate the mass murder of thousands of catholics by there founder.

But you'd be ultra-Catholic church under some circumstances. The same catholic church who is entirely responsible for the Inquisition and the Crusades...where....oh look....they mass-murdered thousands of non-catholics.

Right. I see. It would be okay for you to be Catholic, but they are murdering scum. I see.

if you were being told that you cant do what you may want (ie be a catholic) you would become a hundread times more determined to do that thing even if yo unever hand the intentio nto do so in the first place

Thank you for displaying your incredible grasp of the situation in the North.

Firstly, no-one is told they cannot be a Catholic. Catholics may not receive equal treatment, but that is a seperate issue.

Secondly, if you think that being told you cant do what you want is the source of the problem, then maybe the Republicans and Catholics should stop trying prevent people who want to march down a road from doing what they want.

as for my neighbours, i dont know were you live but i live in a middle class area, were thos anti drug marchs took place, ive seen travillers attacked for going into my local and ive seen black homes burnt out. so dont tell me about intolerance,

I dont think I need to tell you about intolerance - you've shown enough of it already.

As for living in those areas - you've missed my point. Your neighbours who you think are far mre violent than anything in the North are acting as bullies - picking on minorities who cannot defend themselves. As I said - equal up the numbers, arm both sides, and then see exactly how quick your neighbours are going to attack the other side knowing full well that they will face worse in retribution.

How many of your neighbours had their homes burned out, their loved ones beaten to a pulp, or whatever by these travellers/blacks/dealers. Until you can claim that its about the same number as your neighbours have attacked, I will guarantee you 100% that you have still no basis for comparing your locale to the North of Ireland.

I would also guarantee you 100% that taking your locale (which is generally considered to be one of Irelands more troubled) as a basis for extraploating the entire nation's feelings on the issue is sadly misguided.

id have to say id have somethign in the back of my mind with the orange men, id never thrust one, but id could co exist beside one

Right, but you would arbitrarily deny them the right to march, simply because of the fact that they are "orange". Thats no co-existence. Thats more commonly known as subjugation - which you more or less admitted yourself when you said :

we have the organge order in the south and we except them once they keep out of our face and do what we tell them.

Funnily enough - telling people what to do seems to be the problem you have with the orange order in the north, and yet here you are saying that the Orange Order in the republic should just sit down and do what you say.

At the end of the day, I think your level of intolerance is not actually representative of the nation. You, clearly, are of a differing opinion.

jc

Boston

But you'd be ultra-Catholic church under some circumstances. The same catholic church who is entirely responsible for the Inquisition and the Crusades...where....oh look....they mass-murdered thousands of non-Catholics.

Right. I see. It would be okay for you to be Catholic, but they are murdering scum. I see.

No I doubt you see it at all. As ive said already it wouldn’t have anything to do with weather I wanted to be a catholic or not, it would be human nature to become more imbedded into a set order when challenged for merely being a member, to become part of a larger group. If your going to be attacked for having a passing relationship with a group of people, then to me it makes sense that you would take refuse in that group, do you see where im coming from? Why else is Catholicism striving in the north, were it is most oppressed and fading in the souths were it is most free.

Just a side note, how many member of the catholic church leader ship are involved at this moment is organizing hate rally’s and storing up hatred for protestants.

Thank you for displaying your incredible grasp of the situation in the North.

I wasn’t talking about the north I was talking about a hypothetical situation

As for marching up and down the roads, it’s a symbolic thing, to the orange order it like saying to the Catholics ha ha we beat you ****ers. Like robbing salt in the wounds. But the catholics do the exact same thing, though on a smaller scale on paddies day.

Its more realistic that the ira would have a clam on marching down o Connell street, I presume you would have no problem with that,

I dont think I need to tell you about intolerance - you've shown enough of it already.

I haven’t shown intolerance towards anybody, and if your going to start twisting things in a thread, how about this, your family were intolerance to what was going on in the north, the level of intolerance shown in this thread by you is outstanding, especially towards my view point.

Now I don’t really believe that but if were going to start twisting things two can do it, lets deal what people say not the deeper level of meaning behind that.

As for living in those areas - you've missed my point. Your neighbours who you think are far mre violent than anything in the North are acting as bullies - picking on minorities who cannot defend themselves. As I said - equal up the numbers, arm both sides, and then see exactly how quick your neighbours are going to attack the other side knowing full well that they will face worse in retribution.

it all depends, as ive said, with enough fear and repression we are all capable of anything, that is my point, in the same circumstances many people I know wouldn’t react differently, but they weren’t raised in the north and haven’t exprenced the same hardship or trauma, my whole point is that little things are the same as big things, if you’re the type of person willing to use violence against innocent people in one circumstance, given the right elements you will probably be willing to do it in another

How many of your neighbors had their homes burned out, their loved ones beaten to a pulp, or whatever by these travelers/blacks/dealers. Until you can claim that its about the same number as your neighbors have attacked, I will guarantee you 100% that you have still no basis for comparing your locale to the North of Ireland.

Again don’t twist what i said, I didn’t say my local was a miniature northern Ireland, I was just using it as an example of how me in the south are not the tolerant excepting people that some thing, while me may not be as bad as in the north, that handle puts us in a situation were we can judge them, and wag our figures and say of my cant you be more like us.

Right, but you would arbitrarily deny them the right to march, simply because of the fact that they are "orange". Thats no co-existence. Thats more commonly known as subjugation - which you more or less admitted yourself when you said :

Nope what I said is I wouldn’t allow they to march down o Connell street, a historically republican street which they would have zero reason to walk down other then to denigrate and humiliate sections of the community. The orange order march’s up and down the country in towns and cities all over the south, I don’t care, and it seems view others do because its don’t in a respectful way and not in a triumphal and condescending way.

Ill thank you to stop twisting my words, this is the third time.

I think your level of intolerance is not actually representative of the nation. You, clearly, are of a differing opinion.

that’s surprising how wrong you can read a person isn’t it, im very tolerant, because I generally don’t give a damn, if you leave me alone ill leave you alone even if you’re an affront to my way I life, we probably wont be friends but so what.

Remember we don’t see things as they are but how we perceive them, if we perceive and enemy, there will be an enemy, if we perceive intolerance there will be intolerance

WhiteWashMan

you never answered me though?