It's our right to carry guns!!!

the fnj

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/world/2002/0128/322036499FR28UTAH.html

Came across this article in the Times today and it really scared me.

Mr Mark Shurtleff, is promising legal actions and possibly fines against recalcitrant colleges unless they repeal gun bans in conformity with the governor's recent order to all state institutions - that includes schools, campuses, day care centres, parks and hospitals.

In brief if a college in Utah tries to ban students from bringing guns onto the campus with them they will be fined.

Of course the gun lobbyists have a perfectly good counter argument.

"I'm not saying we ought to arm the whole student body," Mr Shurtleff says, "but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that more guns equals less crime

Well guess what: there are small people who may be afraid of football players beating them up, but we don't ban football players from the classroom."

Land of the free indeed.

Victor

[next time post something relevant to the discussion and not a linked story from theonion. If you have a problem with this PM me- Gandalf.]

bonkey

Its an interesting problem.

As long as the right to bear arms remains enshrine in the US constitution, I think the individual states are obliged to uphold it - which means that they cannot override the right to bear arms in these locations.

Its the age old problem of the letter of the law vs. the intention of the law. The law allows people in their majority to bear arms. Now, for perhaps the first time, there is a case where people are being forced to live up to the reality of this - that they cannot take the steps they want for public safety because it would appear to contracvene the second amendment.

What I'm interested in is what will happen if this ruling is upheld. Under what conditions will a state have the right to refuse people their right to bear arms? Will people be allowed (for example) bear arms in a court of law? If not, why is this location exempt from the second amendment, and yet schools etc. are not?

jc

Lemming

Originally posted by bonkey
Will people be allowed (for example) bear arms in a court of law? If not, why is this location exempt from the second amendment, and yet schools etc. are not?

Now that is a question I would LOVE to see the NRA answer, whilst looking the public in the eye.

Maybe have some of the victims families from the various massacres that have occured around the US school system present for the NRA boys to look in the eye and answer sincerely.

Victor

Originally posted by Victor
[next time post something relevant to the discussion and not a linked story from theonion. If you have a problem with this PM me- Gandalf.]

Your mailbox is full. Sorry, I though it was relevant, seeing as the Onion story was about the America's 'love of guns'. Is this relevant? http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/24/202310.shtml

Sand

The NRA would probably like to see the right to bear arms extended to the courtrooms as well though.

Boston

i made a valid point, im sorry if it was way over your heads, but was there a need to delete it.

You (that a general you) spend so much time running around worrying about what way other people, and in this case americans are living, which lets face it doesnt effect you, you ignor problems in your own back yard, and what do you get for all your trouble when you raise these topics on an american board " what would a foreigner know about america anyway"

So i say again, who cares about america

EL_Diablo

that includes schools, campuses, day care centres, parks and hospitals.

Day care centres?!?!?! Really starting them off young. I can just imagine the headlines now "Latest school shooting over who gets to play with the big red truck first" Them americans are mad

gandalf

Firstly Victor dunno why my PM box is saying its full I cleared alot of stuff out at the weekend.

Anyway theonion while been amusing is not really the kind of reference that inhances an arguement here. And considering you didn't really fire your opinion up with it I decided to remove it altogether.

Back to the right to bear arms. What kind of muppet hole is the US. Surely places like Colleges should be allowed to declare themselves gun free.

What if I want to go to a speech by the President, if they stop me because I have a gun can I then not say they are abusing my rights under the US consitution.

Man I can never understand the US and its attitude to guns.

Gandalf.

gandalf

Originally posted by Boston
i made a valid point, im sorry if it was way over your heads, but was there a need to delete it.

You (that a general you) spend so much time running around worrying about what way other people, and in this case americans are living, which lets face it doesnt effect you, you ignor problems in your own back yard, and what do you get for all your trouble when you raise these topics on an american board " what would a foreigner know about america anyway"

So i say again, who cares about america

You made a one line generalisation trying to appear smart. See it didn't hurt to spread out your idea more. If you read the first thread on this board you will see the line "One line statements will be deleted by me without proper backup." http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3641

Unfortunately we have to give a damn about what the US does etc. because most of the time it will effect us. Just look at the state of the IT industry in Ireland today, the ripples started across the Atlantic.

Gandalf.

paddymee

Unfortunately we have to give a damn about what the US does etc. because most of the time it will effect us. Just look at the state of the IT industry in Ireland today, the ripples started across the Atlantic.

True, in some cases.

But who cares in Ireland about the NRA and the right to bear arms? How does it effect outside the US?

Only people who feel the need to complain about the US?

Boston

true about it, but i dont think we will be rushing around handing out guns in schools anytime soon

Lemming

Originally posted by paddymee


True, in some cases.

But who cares in Ireland about the NRA and the right to bear arms? How does it effect outside the US?

Only people who feel the need to complain about the US?

Hmm .. Irish people go to the states on holidays, working trips, etc don't they?? What happens if one of them gets gunned down by some lunatic??

I most certainly care about the NRA idiots and what they do next. I'm also sure that a lot of people in here have friends and family in the US??

American

Originally posted by paddymee

But who cares in Ireland about the NRA and the right to bear arms? How does it affect outside the US?

A question for all you Irish posters. How did it happen that England subjugated you? Did you have the right to bears arms when that happened?

Utah is one our most conservative States, because it was founded and is heavily populated by adherents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (known more widely as the Mormons). These people are among the most law abiding in the nation, and can be trusted to take their guns anywhere.
As the winter Olympics are being held there with an increased risk of terrorist attacks, it may be a useful deterent that this patriotic citizenry is armed.

Victor

Originally posted by gandalf
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3641

= boards.ie/vbulletin > Technology > Technology > PC upgrade

bonkey

Originally posted by Boston
So i say again, who cares about america

Dear oh dear. Is this what we have been reduced to?

Are you saying that we should only discuss Irish matters? (Id rather believe that than the other option - that you are saying that we should simply not discuss US issues but everything else is fine).

Why?

I wasnt aware that when Boards.ie claimed to be an Irish bbs that it meant it was only for Irish topics. Hell - maybe we'd all better stop writing in this danged foreign language as well then.

Life in America effects us. Period. It doesnt matter if its gun control, political debate, financial issues, television shows or even poodle hair-style fashion. It all effects us.

If you believe it doesnt effect you, then maybe just say silent and let those who believe otherwise have their meaningless little discussions. There are other threads. You can go read those. Why come in here saying basically "you shouldnt talk about that. Its American".

Sheesh.

Originally posted by Paddymee
But who cares in Ireland about the NRA and the right to bear arms? How does it effect outside the US?

Simple. American culture more or less defines a large part of western culture, no matter how much we may like to deny it. The escalating cycles of urban violence began their current trends in the large cities in the US, not Europe. Ireland, where guns are illegal, is rapdily developiong a problem with criminals using small arms. At present, they are about 20 years behind the states in teh trend, which is amazing considering that guns are legal there and illegal here.

Ultimately, the steps which America takes as a society to increase or decrease the profileration of weapons in civilian hands will have repercussions around the world - most notably in Europe.

That is how it affects us.

gandalf

Strange I cut the correct link, must be another strange problem with Opera, the browser I use from home.

Anyway I presume you got my meaning ?

Gandalf.

Meh

Originally posted by American
A question for all you Irish posters. How did it happen that England subjugated you? Did you have the right to bear arms when that happened?

Actually, firearms hadn't been invented back then. And we didn't have the right to bear arms during the (successful) Irish War of Independence either. So if you're arguing that we need the right to bear arms to protect us from oppressive government, you just lost. Goodbye.

Victor

[Vaguely facetious mode on] Of course not. I don't necessarily see the problem with a short post / link, even one that is primarily about a piece of satire, in particular a relevant piece of satire. Will all the one liners now be removed from The Phoenix, Private Eye and the likes? [Vaguely facetious mode off]

thereal_unsane

Originally posted by Meh

Actually, firearms hadn't been invented back then. And we didn't have the right to bear arms during the (successful) Irish War of Independence either. So if you're arguing that we need the right to bear arms to protect us from oppressive government, you just lost. Goodbye. [/B]

Agreed we didnt have the right to bear arms during the war of independence, but what exactly did we use to shoot each other with? How exactly did we get our hands on them? how exactly did we "protect ourselves from an opressive government". Did we just throw sticks and stones, and tell them to **** off.

What point exactly were you trying to make there? If there was one, it does not make much sense.

Meh

Originally posted by thereal_unsane
What point exactly were you trying to make there? If there was one, it does not make much sense.

Let me reiterate:

Originally posted by Meh
So if you're arguing that we need the right to bear arms to protect us from oppressive government, you just lost.

Since the Irish War of Independence is a classic example of people without a legal right to bear arms defeating an oppressive government .

Victor

Originally posted by Meh
And we didn't have the right to bear arms during the (successful) Irish War of Independence either. So if you're arguing that we need the right to bear arms to protect us from oppressive government, you just lost. Goodbye.

I'm not sure,but I suspect the general holding of private fire arms was generally legal up to the FIREARMS ACT, 1925 (the equivalent act in the UK was 1936 I think), although there had been a raft of acts in the years immediately prior (1914-1923). Remember all the various militias prior to 1916? The Howth and Larne gun-running? I'm not saying that violent sedition was legitimate, but the (un-organised) ownership of guns was much more liberal. It was a more 'gentlemanly' age.

bonkey

Originally posted by American
Utah is one our most conservative States, because it was founded and is heavily populated by adherents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (known more widely as the Mormons). These people are among the most law abiding in the nation, and can be trusted to take their guns anywhere.

Your point being? Are you asserting that there is no crime in Utah (surely these god-farin' folk wouldnt break the law), or simply saying that in Utah, there is less problems comparatively than the rest of the US.

Also, I would point out that this is a constitutional issue, being dealt with at a State level. My understanding is that the state deals with this in accordance to national (or federal) requirements - what with the right to bear arms being constitutional n all. Therefore, if challenged, this would go to the Supreme Court. Until challenged, or if upheld by the Supreme Court, the precedent now exists that States must allow the Second Amendment its "freedom" in numerous places. Therefore, the fact that this judgement is in Utah is irrelevant - its impact will be at a federal level where unless overruled by the Supreme Court, will in effect become a policy which all 50 states must adopt. No?

As the winter Olympics are being held there with an increased risk of terrorist attacks, it may be a useful deterent that this patriotic citizenry is armed.

Err - are you forgetting the bomb-scares which occurred the last time the summer Olympics were held in your nation full of armed citixens? Didnt seem to put them off then - why would it make any difference now?

Personally, I find that the arguments typically presented in favour of the right to bear arms are steadfastly ignoring the reality of the situation in nations which do not permit the citizenry to bear arms.

The justifications I have heard so far :

It reduces crime - except that the crime rate in many nations which have gun control is far lower than in nations which permit the carrying of guns.

It helps the patriotic citizens keep the government in line - except that many of the most long-term-stable political systems in teh world are in countries where the citizenry does not have the right to bear arms.

it gives us the right to defend our nation should it ever come under attack - except that this right has never been used, never will realistically be used, and hey - if someone can overcome the US army and the National Guard, do you think civilians with hand-weapons will be a major obstacle.

jc

the fnj

We are being asked to leave American alone, it’s not happening in our back yard so why bother talking about it?

This being said about a country that has a history of sticking is nose into other nations business!

The gun laws in American do affect us. I’m travelling to America for the summer and it really bothers me that I can’t go anywhere without the constant threat that the person sitting beside me is carrying a gun.

What’s the big deal one might ask but if I’m sitting in a bar and an argument breaks out the chances of a gun being used are surely quite high.

The fact that people are allowed bring guns to the Olympics is defiantly a concern. I know, I know it’s to discourage terrorists from attacking the games. I’m fully confident that ten thousand people firing handguns at a 747 will take it down before it crashes into the stadium or they may be able to hit a crop dusting plane as it flies over. That excuse is complete and utter bull because everybody knows that these games will probably be the most secure and I could imagine fighter planes on the ready near by if something bad happens. Also what’s to stop a potential terrorist bringing a gun with him and firing into the crowd? Still I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a ban imposed on all non-whites. It’s for the sake of national defence.

I know one of the reasons for the gun laws is to keep the red coats at bay but I’m fully confident that Tony Blair will recall his entire musket bearing troops in the near future.

I’ll finish with some Bill Hicks

In America, where guns are legal we had 20,000 deaths by hand guns last year! In England where they are illegal they had 26. Now in America, and I think you all know how we feel about guns, I’m getting a little bit of wood here, we had 20,000 deaths. While over in England where guns aren’t allowed they had 26. Now if you can see any connection between the two you are an idiot and a communist.

Boston

bonkey thats not what im saying, im saying that ive had lenghy talks with americans about GUNS, and basically what it comes down to they dont give a damn what the outside world thinks when it comes to gun issues, so if they dont care, why should we care

paddymee

Hmm .. Irish people go to the states on holidays, working trips, etc don't they?? What happens if one of them gets gunned down by some lunatic??

I most certainly care about the NRA idiots and what they do next. I'm also sure that a lot of people in here have friends and family in the US??

I'm Irish living in the US and I can tell you I feel safer here then when I lived in Blanchardstown.

Your argument is one the the NRA "idiots" jump all over. They just counter, that yes lunatics shouldn't be allowed guns. Only law abiding citizens. The NRA want enforcement of the current laws to stop this from happening.

Another poster mentioned that guns are banned in Ireland. That is not true. They are limited. However the amount of deaths by shootings is pretty high in the gangland scene.

And what about that bloke who killed the priest and a women about 10 years ago. Just one quick example. How did Ireland's laws help there.

Crap, the missus is rushing me out the door, so excuse me if this is a bit hasty.

MelKor

stupid question here, so ill make it quick,

is it actually legal in america to own an assault rifle (like an AK-47 or something not a state of the art thing)

coz my cousin collects them and there all in working condition

Meh

Originally posted by BiTchiN
is it actually legal in america to own an assault rifle (like an AK-47 or something not a state of the art thing)

It's completely legal to own semi-automatic assault rifles. As long as they have the fully automatic mode disabled, that is. Buying a kit to convert your legal semi-automatic AK47 into an illegal fully automatic AK47 is against the law, so nobody does it. Yeah.

Lemming

Originally posted by paddymee

Your argument is one the the NRA "idiots" jump all over. They just counter, that yes lunatics shouldn't be allowed guns. Only law abiding citizens. The NRA want enforcement of the current laws to stop this from happening.

And how does one determine a "law abidding citizen" from the lunatic?? These people don't walk around with "I am a lunatic" painted on their chests do they?

How can you tell if an "ordinary joe" isn't about to just snap and take his automatic rifle downtown and let rip??

I'm not saying "ban guns". What I am saying is severly curtail the sales, type, calibre, and the general use of suchweapons (ie. not carrying them on your person in public, etc etc.)

paddymee

And how does one determine a "law abidding citizen" from the lunatic?? These people don't walk around with "I am a lunatic" painted on their chests do they?

Do serious background checks. Jail people who break the gun laws. Many of the people who are involved in gun crimes have a dodgy backgrounds and still can buy guns.

Apparently the Brady bill has caught a lot of these people, but from what I understand it could be better.

I don't know what the NRA's stance on the Brady bill is. I just know that they claim that the laws need to be enforced.

Anyway a looney can kill with other weapons like a knife, iron bar, etc, so I think it's better to identify and treat the loonies.

I also don't agree with the carrying of concealed of weapons

And do you know what? I do think the possession of guns has helped me feel safer. In San Francisco the rate of burgularies feels a lot smaller than in Dublin. I don't have figures so it's just my feeling. We don't have alarms on our houses over here.

A burgular must think twice about entering a house, because there could be someone in there with a gun and willing to use it.

Again this is what I feel. I could be wrong. But as I said before, I don't feel as safe in Dublin as I do in the US.

Doesn't Switzerland have similiar guns laws as the US?

bonkey

Originally posted by paddymee
I also don't agree with the carrying of concealed of weapons

<snip>

Doesn't Switzerland have similiar guns laws as the US?

Actually, Switzerland has weird gun laws. Any swiss citizen who has reached their majority (as far as I know) can own their own guns. You need some form of licemse, but the basic type aint hard to get apparently.

This allows you to own and carry guns -as long as they're big, non-concealable guns. You know - rifles, shotguns. No problems there. You may need an additional license for "non-standard" things like assault rifles and the like, but they're obtainable. I dont know if its legal to own a fully automatic weapon).

You need a different license (which is apparently far harder to get) in order to own a concealable gun (like a handgun).

I'm not 100% sure what the laws are about *carrying* guns, but the only ones you ever see outside the firing ranges are military issue.

So, you can own an AK-47 (saw one in a shop the other day) and use it on the firing range, but were you to walk around town with it, Id imagine that some nice police types may have words with you.

Whats really weird is to see some hip-hop-dressed youngster with a dodgy haircut flaking down the road on his skates, with a SiG assault rifle over his shoulder. No-one bats an eye - cause its a military rifle, so he's probably on his way to or from a qualifying shoot.

Interestingly, I think there have been only two known cases of misuse of military-issued weapons in the last decade or so. The numbers of cases of misuse of personal firearms seems small (hardly ever hear of it happening, but enough to believe its not just the media ignoring a common event) as well, but I dont have figures.

jc