Burkas - how do you respond?

fly_agaric

bonkey wrote:

Ah, I see. Thats how we're supposed to do distinguish between the two. We argue that even those who claim to have made a free choice haven't actually done so, because its really some sort of cultural indoctrination. In short, we deny that free choice exists for anyone who claims to have freely made this choice. How enlightened of us. Why address the question of whether or not a choice was freely made when you can just pretend it doesn't exist.

Well, I think you have me there.:) Talking of "cultural indoctrination" is dodging the issue I suppose. In cases where there is no active coercion such as you mention later in your post it just comes down to whether we will accept the pressure of burka-wearing indoctrination from family, friends, religious figures etc competeing with the pressures coming from our society to not wear it. Or are we going to resort to laws. I think in France they have decided that they can't ever prove that undue coercion is going on and legislate in case it is.

bonkey wrote:

Tell me, if an Irish woman (or woman of another "Western" nation) were to convert to Islam and choose to wear the Burka, what then? Should we decide she was forced into it even if she says otherwise, should we decide that its her Western culture which has conned her into believing she made a free choice, or should we just come up with another "this scenario doesn't exist" denial-based-refutation.

Interesting. No, unless there were the types of coercion you mention involved, I admit you can't say she was forced into it. She has made a choice (a bad one IMO) and gone against the pressures and expectations of our society and culture which are pushing in the opposite direction.

bonkey wrote:

(Do you think her choice is 'free'?):
Yes, I do.

Nowhere where the freedom to choose is enshrined as a right does it suggest that this freedom prevents others from trying to convince you to do otherwise.

Freedom of choice has never equated with freedom from reprecussion.

Now if she was to be cast out of her home for making the choice, or something to that effect, I would completely agree there was an attempt at unacceptable coercion....but freedom of choice has never protected people from others voicing displeasure at a decision and/or attempting to convince you to do otherwise.

Fair enough. I was thinking of "freedom of choice" as being able to make the choice without major negative consequences, which has led to a misunderstanding on my part. You set a higher threshold for what could be considered undue coercion.

bonkey wrote:

And we dealt with this issue (as you see it) how?

We didn't ban anything.
We didn't prevent the Catholic church from attempting to sway people. We didn't tell people that it was wrong to choose to do what their religious leaders tell them is the right thing for the faithful to do.

We didn't do any of those things.

We let them instead choose whether or not to do what they were told. We left people their freedom of choice, rather than attempt to take it away leaving only the choices we want them to have.

Why is the wearing of a Burka any different?
jc

I actually agree with you. As I said earlier in this thread, I wouldn't hold with banning the wearing of the burka. I don't like them (beacuse of my 'cultural indoctrination' if you will). They give me a severe case of the creeps (an emotional reaction, I know). I don't approve of people wearing them in Ireland. I certainly would not like to see the wearing of burkas granted any kind of protections in our law as part of freedom of religious expression.

The Athiest wrote:

Good post, fly

I though it was okay too, till it got ripped to tatty shreds.:)

Karl Hungus

bonkey wrote:

Of course they are a restriction on the human rights of those forced to wear them, but that doesn't address how many women are forced to wear them, how many choose to, and how we can distinguish between the two.

Ah, I see. Thats how we're supposed to do distinguish between the two. We argue that even those who claim to have made a free choice haven't actually done so, because its really some sort of cultural indoctrination. In short, we deny that free choice exists for anyone who claims to have freely made this choice. How enlightened of us. Why address the question of whether or not a choice was freely made when you can just pretend it doesn't exist.

Hmm... But is a choice really a choice if there's no other choice?

Speculatively speaking, it could be more of an only option to go along with it, or if there is a choice there, maybe it's just the choice to like it (or lump it) so to speak?

bonkey

Karl Hungus wrote:

Hmm... But is a choice really a choice if there's no other choice?

No, but so far teh only argument I've generally seen as to there being no choice is more or less along teh lines of "well, if they had a chioce, they wouldn't be wearing it, would they".

In other words, we appear to be assuming that womon would never freely choose this form of clothing, and concluding that their wearing of it must therefore indicate coercion.

When no coercion can be clearly shown, we simply decide that it must be peer pressure of some description - potentially even unspoken.

In short, we appear to be fishing around for a justification of the conclusion we've already formed.

Speculatively speaking,

Exactly my point.

jc

U$ername

Burkas get as much as a response from me as Man Utd fans wearing red shirts or KKK clan members wearing white pillowcases....

What they wear is part of what they believe in, Im sure the women wearing the burkas are aware that no one in Ireland will bat an eyelid if they decide to wear them or not.

Im sure the more important question you should be asking is why do large, obviously unfit people wear track suits or expensive trainers when all they appear to do is eat, as this clothing was designed for those who like exercising..