Burkas - how do you respond?

simu

So, imagine you are walking down some street in Ireland and you see a woman covered from head to toe in a burka. What are your initial thoughts? How do you respond?

Ought the wearing of these garments be outlawed or subject to public disapproval as the like of Kevin Myers suggests?

Well, I think that people ought to be able to wear them if they wish and I don't see why people should be obliged to show their faces to the world unless in a setting where this is neccessary for communication such as in a courthouse or in a school, or for the taking of passport photos.

OfflerCrocGod

I hate them. They shouldn't be outlawed though, if someone has an insane belief they can keep it as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

Random

I wouldn't give it a seconds thought to be honest ...

Let people do as they wish.

Victor

I've only ever seen one Burka in real-life, but head scarves are common enough.

While showing some deferrence to others' customs, I find addressing orthodox muslims in the plural and not just to the "man" to be slightly preferable.

One thing I do happen to do is if a woman is wearing a (muslim) head scarf is that I will be slightly more formal and when giving her money will put it on the counter, not in her hand.

And while flowing robes are meant to conceal their "charms", for one woman I met they really showed them off.

nobodythere

I would look philosophically to the sky and say, "What the hell's a burka?"

Hagar

Would you look at the sexy eyebrows on her. Hubba Hubba.

Talliesin

When the US capture of Kabul was the current news I was struck by how the Burka really became a symbol of how Afghani women were being bossed about by men from different cultures.

First the Taliban insisted they were them, whether they wanted to or not.

Then Western journalists insisted they take them off, whether they wanted to or not.

Frank Grimes

simu wrote:

Ought the wearing of these garments be outlawed or subject to public disapproval as the like of Kevin Myers suggests?

I don't see why anyone should care what another person wears, let alone suggest that we need laws telling people to remove items of clothing in public.
I think people should look what Kevin Myers was suggesting in this way:
If it was only "born and bred" Irish women deciding they wanted to wear clothes like that:
A. would people be objecting and
B. if it was suggested that dressing this way should be outlawed, what would people's reaction be?
For all I know there could well be an Irish female convert who wears the full veil but it's being put across as only "them" (i.e. immigrants) who are wearing these clothes and the impression seemingly being given is that it's ok to start suggesting laws to regulate how much clothes people wear as, after all, it's not going to affect "us".

simu

Talliesin wrote:

When the US capture of Kabul was the current news I was struck by how the Burka really became a symbol of how Afghani women were being bossed about by men from different cultures.

First the Taliban insisted they were them, whether they wanted to or not.

Then Western journalists insisted they take them off, whether they wanted to or not.

Yeah, I agree. It's weird.

Shabadu

The day I take an opinion of Kevin Myers seriously is the day I start reading the Independent, and that's not going to happen tbh. I literally cannot *stand* these all or nothing points of view, how all or nothing of me, I know.

What concerns me is how or why the woman came to the choice to wear it. Does she feel it is her choice? Has her choice been influenced by fear? Would she feel she could choose not to wear it one day if she changed her mind?

Like everything, it is relative. It is a very important part of some women's lives in a spiritual sense, and not so much to others. It's when people start imposing their own personal judgements on others that I feel a line has been crossed, whether it's from those who are Muslim, or Non-Muslim.

rsynnott

Who the **** is Kevin Myers? And what business is it of his? If someone feels that they should wear a particular item of clothing because of their beliefs, that is surely not a problem? If they are being compelled to by another person, of course, that's a completely different matter. Would Mr Myers suggest that nuns be required to wander round in bikinis, or similar? Probably not. So why this?

Shabadu

Kevin Myers- a 'controversial ' "journalist" associated w/ The Times. Writes 'an Irishman's Diary'. In general, an all-round gobshíte.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Myers

rsynnott

Ah, yes, I've read that. Ireland Uber Alles type; waste of skin. Tho he gets some credit for standing up to SF.

Vangelis

When I see women with burkas, I tend to get curious. They seem so shy and little talkative. I respect their customs, but think it is sad that women should hide themselves like that. Still I wouldn't say that those barely dressed women of the West are any better. :eek:

Cianos

I dont see what the big deal at all is...who cares what ppl wear?

Talliesin

simu wrote:

Yeah, I agree. It's weird.

Not weird, just sad.

fly_agaric

simu wrote:

So, imagine you are walking down some street in Ireland and you see a woman covered from head to toe in a burka. What are your initial thoughts?

Please, please, I'll pray to Allah 5 times a day if you promise not to chop my infidel head off/blow me and all the other tools of shaitanic Western capitalism milling around Blanch. shopping centre to bits.
/sick jk.

I haven't seen anyone wearing Burka in Ireland. I have seen some women with Saudi-type full face veils with only the eyes showing. They give me the creeps TBH.

simu wrote:

How do you respond?

I would behave as I normally would, which is to say I wouldn't respond at all.

simu wrote:

Ought the wearing of these garments be outlawed or subject to public disapproval as the like of Kevin Myers suggests?

No to banning. If people are stupid/duped enough to actually want to wear a burka on the street in Ireland that is their problem. I'd disapprove I suppose - as I might when I'd see someone walk past with their ársecrack sticking out of the top of their jeans, but at the end of the day its none of my business really.

simu wrote:

Well, I think that people ought to be able to wear them if they wish and I don't see why people should be obliged to show their faces to the world unless in a setting where this is neccessary for communication such as in a courthouse or in a school, or for the taking of passport photos.

I agree. It seems a bit extreme to ban them. There should not be any "right" accorded to the wearing of such an item as, say part of a freedom of religious expression however. If your employer, or the state (for security checks for instance, or to get a passport or driver's licence) wants you to take it off and you (or you husband) object, tough!

OfflerCrocGod

Talliesin wrote:

Then Western journalists insisted they take them off, whether they wanted to or not.

What journalists were those - I don't remember them at all Did they not get in trouble?

Talliesin

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

What journalists were those

The ones looking for photographs of women taking off their burkhas to symbolise the liberation of Kabul.

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Did they not get in trouble?

Hell no, they got a good photograph and the women put their burkhas back on quickly and ran off in case they'd been spotted.

pretty*monster

I find the dotion that any woman should be told, ro feel she has to cover up her body in such a way utterly revolting.

But I find the idea of the government dictaing wha clothes we should wear equally revolting.

It's a tough one all right.

OfflerCrocGod

Talliesin wrote:

The ones looking for photographs of women taking off their burkhas to symbolise the liberation of Kabul.

Examples?

Talliesin wrote:

Hell no, they got a good photograph and the women put their burkhas back on quickly and ran off in case they'd been spotted.

I was talking about the journalists, not the women. If Western journalists had gone around demanding women in a muslim country remove their Burkas so they they could take pictures signifying the said womens liberation from a repressive muslim regime I'm certain there would have been a huge fuss and mess - I don't remember such a controversy.

Syth

I am a big believer in personal liberties, but I think there are some places where people should be forced to remove burkas, eg banks.

rsynnott

Syth wrote:

I am a big believer in personal liberties, but I think there are some places where people should be forced to remove burkas, eg banks.

Ah, yes; show some respect to the money-god.

Victor

pretty*monster wrote:

But I find the idea of the government dictaing wha clothes we should wear equally revolting.

Do you support streakers rights?

Dave!

I was on the bus the other day and I saw an Irish (looking) woman getting on with her Arab (looking) husband and (presumably) their kid, and the woman was wearing a Muslim head-scarf thing (not a burka, though). I just spent most of the bus journey wondering why someone would actually convert to such a faith, even if they loved the person they were with and they asked them to convert.

Now, the woman could well have been Israeli or something, or could have been Muslim all her life, or not at all... but the thought was there, that's all. It's not really relevent if they were actually Muslim.

Zombrex

DaveMcG wrote:

I just spent most of the bus journey wondering why someone would actually convert to such a faith, even if they loved the person they were with and they asked them to convert.

Well you could also wonder why someone would sit in a room with a load of other people on a sunny sunday morning listening to a man drone on and on about people who have been dead for thousands of years ...

The thing to remember is that the majority of muslim women (i would imagine, i haven't actually taken a poll or anything), don't see the scarf as an act of oppression, they see it as a commitment to their faith.

Now, I personly think it is silly, but then I think all religion is silly. I don't think it is any more silly than sitting in church on sunday, or only eating fish on Friday. But to other Irish not doing these things can be seen as loss of commitment and spirtuality.

I do think that it is rather ironic that people would want to force women to not wear the scarfs because they are, to some, a symbol of a religion that is supposed to oppress women ... :rolleyes:

utopian

Vangelis wrote:

When I see women with burkas, I tend to get curious. They seem so shy and little talkative. I respect their customs, but think it is sad that women should hide themselves like that. Still I wouldn't say that those barely dressed women of the West are any better. :eek:

I think that equating women forced to wear those garments with immodest Western women is incredible. Surely Kevin Myers' point was that these garments do not seem to be worn by choice. Perhaps he is wrong and these garments are worn because these women are so shy.

Also, he said that we have social taboos about hiding one's face. If my buddies and I decide to walk around in balaclavas, that would probably be viewed as something more than a fashion-statement.

I'm not sure that I would favour banning them, but it is not self-evident that people may wear whatever they wish.

Charles Bronson

You cant get in to some shops wearing a sweat top with a hood. Bikers helmets must be removed, and if you try walking in to a bank wearing a balaclava you will be surrounded by cops with guns in minutes. Hiding the face is should be taboo for all or none.

Vangelis

utopian wrote:

I think that equating women forced to wear those garments with immodest Western women is incredible. Surely Kevin Myers' point was that these garments do not seem to be worn by choice. Perhaps he is wrong and these garments are worn because these women are so shy.

I have heard.. that the women who wear burkas do so volunteerly. But their arguement is also that it is a tradition. They volunteerly follow their traditions.

Also, he said that we have social taboos about hiding one's face. If my buddies and I decide to walk around in balaclavas, that would probably be viewed as something more than a fashion-statement.

I'm not sure that I would favour banning them, but it is not self-evident that people may wear whatever they wish.

Men in balaclavas are sexy. :cool: Having said that, don't think that I like hooded Al-Qaeda-men.. What you say sounds right. Partially. But I am not qualified to write a whole dissertation about forced clothing. So I'll leave it at that.

Gazza22

When i see a women with a burka, tbh i wouldn't give it two thoughts.

The only thing that would be in my mind sometimes would be if she is wearing it of her own free will or being forced by the men in her life.

Dimitri

Personally i think if nothing else dressing like that must be very uncomfortable, but if thats the way you want to dress thats fine by me. On the other hand i'm totally opposed to religious symbols in state institutions and fell all cruxificies, statues, crosses, and religious attire should be completely banned. How someone dresses in their sparetime is entirely up to them. I also agree with the bank scenario. Motorcyclists have to remove their helmets so too should people wearing burkas.

rsynnott

Dimitri wrote:

Personally i think if nothing else dressing like that must be very uncomfortable, but if thats the way you want to dress thats fine by me. On the other hand i'm totally opposed to religious symbols in state institutions and fell all cruxificies, statues, crosses, and religious attire should be completely banned.

Hmm, why? I mean, obviously it'd be inappropriate for the institution to display them, but where's the problem with individuals doing so?

Karl Hungus

Christ that's a tough question to answer. I nearly blurted out that I think it's dispicable the second this thread was posted, but thankfully I decided not to. Don't get me wrong, I do think it's dispicable, not to mention barbaric to have women vieled from head to toe, and having to walk a 'repsectfully distance' behind their husbands. But I'm happier that I've collected my thoughts on the subject, and actually thought about why I find it so distastefull.

The thing is, it's a much larger issue than simply the burkas, and it's simply not as simple was whether a woman chooses to wear it or not, because there are so many more social and theological issues, and the garment itself has social, politcal and theological implications. We have to take into consideration that people can be indoctrinated into believe things, and brainwashing isn't entirely unheard of, not to mention the very idea that a Muslim woman might be terrified of the ramifications if she actually expressed that it wasn't something she decided for herself.

I think that saying "Well, what if she chooses this" or saying it's a commitment to their faith is a fairly speculative and ambigeous thing to say, especially considering that if any one of us actually wanted to ask a woman wearing a burka if it's her decision or not, we'd get nothing as she wouldn't be allowed to speak.

Now as Simu has said, "I don't see why people should be obliged to show their faces to the world unless in a setting where this is neccessary for communication such as in a courthouse" but there's a problem, just read this.

“Up until a few years ago, women in Saudi Arabia weren’t issued birth certificates, which means they weren’t considered citizens,” Ebadi said. “Even now they aren’t allowed to drive their own cars. A law made in 1990 in Iran makes the value of the life of a woman half that of a man … and in many instances women are not allowed to speak in a court of law.”

That's pretty disgusting in my opinion.

Something that is also worrying is the effect that Muslim attitudes have on a community. I know a few people here are aware of things that are happening in largely muslim areas in countries like France and Holland, but for people who don't know, please Read this.

Take very special notice of this part of the article:

In many French cities with a growing radical Islamist population, no teenage girl can go out in the evening, at least not without a full burqa. If she does, it will mean that "she is for everybody": in short, a whore. In the same cities, every teenage girl - regardless of religion - has to wear the Muslim veil if she does not want to be harassed or killed. Almost every month, a young woman is mugged and raped in a suburb of a big city. Gang rape has become so frequent that a new word, used by the rapists themselves to define their hideous actions, is used by everybody: tournantes (revolving). To the rapists, the woman is nothing, a mere object to be thrown away after use. The people who speak about "revolving" seem to forget a human being is involved as the victim. Policemen do nothing. Every decent person knows the problem is Islam, but no one dares to say it. It could be dangerous. The streets are not safe.

Now, while the question of "What are you thoughts on Burkas" is what's being asked, I honestly think there's a more important question: What are your thoughts on young women, reguardless of their religion, being required to wear the garment unless they want to be gang-raped or murdered?

rsynnott

The thing is, lots of people believe all sorts of crazy nonsense. Only those who make their belief in crazy nonsense overly visable come under fire, generally; when you think of it, believing that gay people are "intrinsically disordered" (Christianity) or that stearic acid is perfectly acceptable if it comes from corn but against the will of god if it comes from a cow (Judaism), or that sex for pleasure is sinful (just about every bloody religion) is just as odd as believing that if one is a woman, one should wear some particular garment.

Where it becomes a problem is where the woman in question is being forced, coerced or guilted into it.

Dades

Just thinking that banning burkhas in public well might have the effect of confining some Muslim women to their homes.

But I can't see this happening unless we have a sudden spate of burkha-sporting bank robberies.

That said I believe not being allowed show your face in public is a crime against humanity.
When I'm King....

Dimitri

Hmm, why? I mean, obviously it'd be inappropriate for the institution to display them, but where's the problem with individuals doing so?

Like any company, school or institution, state or otherwise are represented by the people that attend/work for them. If someone is dealing with me in a statly situation they are representing that institution not themselves, if they are wearing religious attire than that institution is religiously bias in my eyes. Again what is worn in ones own time is their business.

Victor

Karl Hungus wrote:

Now as Simu has said, "I don't see why people should be obliged to show their faces to the world unless in a setting where this is neccessary for communication such as in a courthouse" but there's a problem, just read this. That's pretty disgusting in my opinion.

If you actually read the piece, she blames tribalism, not Islam.

Read this.

Nice boobs! See the irony?

Vangelis

Karl Hungus wrote:

The thing is, it's a much larger issue than simply the burkas, and it's simply not as simple was whether a woman chooses to wear it or not, because there are so many more social and theological issues, and the garment itself has social, politcal and theological implications. We have to take into consideration that people can be indoctrinated into believe things, and brainwashing isn't entirely unheard of, not to mention the very idea that a Muslim woman might be terrified of the ramifications if she actually expressed that it wasn't something she decided for herself.

I think that saying "Well, what if she chooses this" or saying it's a commitment to their faith is a fairly speculative and ambigeous thing to say, especially considering that if any one of us actually wanted to ask a woman wearing a burka if it's her decision or not, we'd get nothing as she wouldn't be allowed to speak.

These women are allowed to speak. I've seen some on tv being asked why they wear burkas and they explain why. Some of them wear darker burkas whcih cover them more, and they say that this is because they are more dedicated Muslims. That is a sign that they can choose, to me at least. However, I realise that we don't know everything that happens in a Muslim home. Muslim fathers kill their daughters if they go out with boys for example. But a Muslim woman's view on burkas differs from place to place.

Banning burkas however is equally disgusting. The West cannot push its so-called democracy and liberal attitudes on other cultures. And I hate Europe and the US for believing that they can.

Now, while the question of "What are you thoughts on Burkas" is what's being asked, I honestly think there's a more important question: What are your thoughts on young women, reguardless of their religion, being required to wear the garment unless they want to be gang-raped or murdered?

If you ask me, I think this question is irrelevant in some cases. In other cases, it's not. Not all Muslims gang-rape and murder girls if they are not wearing burkas. But those who do dominate media and make it seem like all Muslim men would do that.

utopian

Vangelis wrote:

Banning burkas however is equally disgusting. The West cannot push its so-called democracy and liberal attitudes on other cultures. And I hate Europe and the US for believing that they can.

"So-called" democracy? With which states are you comparing us? Are there any democracies in the world? Do you differentiate between the systems of government of Ireland and Saudi Arabia?

As for whether we can force democracy and liberal attitudes on other cultures which arrive here, I very much hope we can.

fly_agaric

Vangelis wrote:

Banning burkas however is equally disgusting. The West cannot push its so-called democracy and liberal attitudes on other cultures. And I hate Europe and the US for believing that they can.

Eh... Is it just me or did that not make any sense? How would Western countries be pushing anything on anybody here by deciding (democratically, one would hope) what laws their own citizens are governed by at home?

Are Western women who emigrate to Saudi and have to have be managed by a male "guardian" in their dealings with the state, can't worship in a church as they would at home, or drive, or go out on the beer, or (fill in alot of the stuff that makes life bearable in here) victims of Saudis "pushing" their illiberal values on them? Unless they were dragged off to Saudi in chains, the answer must be no.

Edit...
How is Europe forcing "other cultures" to adopt our "so-called" democracy?
What perfect state are you measuring the "so-called" democracies of Europe against because I want to move there? I have a feeling this wonderland only exists in your head though.

Karl Hungus

Victor wrote:

If you actually read the piece, she blames tribalism, not Islam.

I actually did read the peice, but I fail to see your point. Are you suggesting that I've said she was blaming Islam, or that I myself am blaming Islam itself? Because if you are, I'd like to point out that I never said any such thing, and if you look back to this part of my post, you'll see something relevant.

Karl Hungus wrote:

The thing is, it's a much larger issue than simply the burkas, and it's simply not as simple was whether a woman chooses to wear it or not, because there are so many more social and theological issues, and the garment itself has social, politcal and theological implications.

Let me just say that I did mention social issues first and foremost here.

Indeed though, while I do say theology is part of it, it's almost opening another can of worms entirely. Can a religion be blamed for acts carried out by it followers? Is one religion nessicarily more presupposed to violence than another? Should a religion be accountable, or the so-called goobers and bad apples who take it too dangerous levels?

Vangelis wrote:

If you ask me, I think this question is irrelevant in some cases. In other cases, it's not. Not all Muslims gang-rape and murder girls if they are not wearing burkas. But those who do dominate media and make it seem like all Muslim men would do that.

I find it ironic that you'd take me up on this and insunuate that I've said all Muslims would do this kind of thing, when I didn't say or mean any such thing, yet ironically you say yourself that "Muslim fathers kill their daughters if they go out with boys for example."

So, on one hand you're saying that Muslim father kill their daughters, and this isn't 'Many' Muslim father, or 'Some' Muslim fathers, this is simply "Muslim Fathers" - that's an absolute. Yet on the other hand, you're taking the moral high ground and telling me how not all Muslims are gang rapists and murderers. :rolleyes:

Please, get off your high horse.

And you know something else? I'm actually fairly tired of people who are almost excusing the actions of some people by saying "Well, it's not all of them who do this." Thanks for that glimmer of perspective, I'm sure the parents of a young girl who was raped and left to die in a gutter feel a lot better in knowing that it's not everybody does that kind of thing. I guess that makes it all ok then, doesn't it?

"It's not all of them" may seem fairly noble, but it excuses and ignores those who do commit such acts. Now I'm suggesting anything like the whole of a demographic should be accountable, infact far from it, all I'm saying is that it shouldn't be shrugged off, excused and ignored with lines like "It's not all of them" either.

Vangelis

Karl Hungus wrote:

I find it ironic that you'd take me up on this and insunuate that I've said all Muslims would do this kind of thing, when I didn't say or mean any such thing, yet ironically you say yourself that "Muslim fathers kill their daughters if they go out with boys for example."

So, on one hand you're saying that Muslim father kill their daughters, and this isn't 'Many' Muslim father, or 'Some' Muslim fathers, this is simply "Muslim Fathers" - that's an absolute. Yet on the other hand, you're taking the moral high ground and telling me how not all Muslims are gang rapists and murderers. :rolleyes:

And you know something else? I'm actually fairly tired of people who are almost excusing the actions of some people by saying "Well, it's not all of them who do this." Thanks for that glimmer of perspective, I'm sure the parents of a young girl who was raped and left to die in a gutter feel a lot better in knowing that it's not everybody does that kind of thing. I guess that makes it all ok then, doesn't it?

"It's not all of them" may seem fairly noble, but it excuses and ignores those who do commit such acts. Now I'm suggesting anything like the whole of a demographic should be accountable, infact far from it, all I'm saying is that it shouldn't be shrugged off, excused and ignored with lines like "It's not all of them" either.

Hey calm down my friend! I didn't mean any offense. It's clear that you have strong opinions on this matter. Perhaps you know more than me. I respect that. Maybe I exaggerated this about ALL Muslim fathers etc, and I take that back. It is important not to GENERALISE as I felt you did in your own statements.

I did not intend to excuse or defend the Muslims who mistreat women for "misbehaving". It's not okay to me at all that Muslim women are endangered this way, but ALL I am saying... is that there is no reason to condemn ALL Muslims. Some have more liberal views and empathy. That is admireable I think in spite of how the Qua'ran tells men to treat women.

So you have a good point and I have a good point. Truce?

Karl, I'm interested in hearing your viewpoint on prohibition of burkas!

Karl Hungus

Vangelis wrote:

I did not intend to excuse or defend the Muslims who mistreat women for "misbehaving". It's not okay to me at all that Muslim women are endangered this way, but ALL I am saying... is that there is no reason to condemn ALL Muslims. Some have more liberal views and empathy. That is admireable I think in spite of how the Qua'ran tells men to treat women.

Well seeing as I didn't condemn all Muslims, it's a moot point.

Vangelis wrote:

So you have a good point and I have a good point. Truce?

Truce? Well I suppose so, but it's not like it was a battle.

Vangelis wrote:

Karl, I'm interested in hearing your viewpoint on prohibition of burkas!

Honestly, it's a terrible idea.

That would be like in France when they banned headscarfs in schools, which to me seemed like nothing more than a last ditch attempt at getting in some authority to the situation, and it was a miss-guided attempt at that. I don't think that for one second that you can just force something like that on people who believe their theological viewpoint to be the correct one (which is something instilled in the religion itself, an absolute sense of we're right, you're wrong) and expect them to go along with it. You just can't do that.

I think people have to learn for themselves and come to certain conclusions on their own. Take a look at Ireland for example, in the last century views and attitudes have changed quite rapidly altogether with concern to the Catholic Church, and now for example, Ireland realise just how wrong it was to bung women who've had a child out of wedlock in some Catholic run hell-hole. What would've happened if another culture started telling our forefathers how wrong that kind of thing was? I imagine devoted catholic would quite simply not hear the truth.

Now, on the other hand, this is our country and if people want to come and live in our country shouldn't they live here under our laws and try to understand our morals? That said, I honestly don't think that kind of approach will happen, because it seems very un-PC to expect someone else to change for you, it's you who should bend over backwards to accomidate them, reguardless if they have any respect for your culture or not, and right now, attitudes in Ireland are zealously Politically Correct.

It's a dilly of a pickle really, and I don't see how it would be possible to say to the Muslim world "Stay in your room untill you've calmed down" so to speak.

The only solution I can see that is feasable is that if someone wanted to live in Ireland (Be they immigrant, or refugee) they should be required to take a class. This class would consist of teaching about Ireland, it's culture, it's people, perhaps some history, understand other religions that are practiced in Ireland, such as wicca, buddhism and so forth, and teach tolerence of other people's views, understanding certain traits (Such as the Irish sense of humour, which I think can lead to people of other culture's taking things up wrong), and quite importantly, understanding other cultures that might be living in Ireland, Ireland's laws, because people coming from other countries can have totally different laws and be very unaware of our laws. We shouldn't expect people to come along and have an understand of our ways. Now, as is most relevant to this thread, this class should also educate people of their rights, and give information on how to get help in the case of spousal abuse, child abuse, rape, and provide contact numbers for helplines and suchlike.

I think that Political Correctness is asking of us, what it does not expect of others, in that it preaches for us to be tolerant, yet requires no such thing of other parties. As such this class I'm proposing would teach understand and tolerance among those who wish to live in Ireland. I think it would also go a long way to avoid the ghettoization of certain communities, and as such make multiculturalism a far more realistic idea, as all parties will have a mutual respect and understanding of each other, without feeling intimidated and would probably ease down any tensions between communities that might arise in the future. We should also encourage immigrants and refugees who have already settled to take this class also with a payment akin to a FAS scheme.

Aswell as that, I think such a class might weed out certain extremists and frauds, as I'd imagine the kind of person who would refure to take such a class, probably wouldn't belong in the country in the first place, or could be a danger.

At least, that's my solution. It probably wouldn't be put into practice at all though as the PC brigade all so rampant and they just love shouting "It's all your fault!" at the Irish, while shoving their fingers in their ears and pretending nobody can be intolerant but us Irish. Such a class would go against everything they believe in, rather like certain Catholic zealots I mentioned previously.

Anyway Vangelis, a little long winded I know (Yes, I have put a lot of thought into this), but I hope that answers your question and then some.

Beruthiel

nice post ken

I've seen plenty of burkas, my friend has been with an Algerian Muslim for 7 years now, but the less I say about him the better. I cannot tar them all with the same brush.
However, I have learned enough to know that women should know their place. That’s fine, if they are happy with that, if wearing a burka is their religious choice, then no probs.
I think it’s fair to say though, that for a good percentage they wear them cos they would get no end of grief if they didn’t, especially in places in the boonies of Iraq, Afghanistan, Algeria to name but a few.

Karl Hungus

Beruthiel wrote:

nice post ken

Thanks muchly. It's been a while since I got a chance to get so long winded and philosophising, so I put in a good effort.

bonkey

Karl Hungus wrote:

That would be like in France when they banned headscarfs in schools, which to me seemed like nothing more than a last ditch attempt at getting in some authority to the situation, and it was a miss-guided attempt at that.

More correctly, the banned all overt religious items, of which headscarves happen to be the one (perhaps the most common) that a fuss was kicked up about.

I'm just waiting for the parents of a Muslim child to take a teacher to court in France for wearing a wedding ring.

Now, on the other hand, this is our country and if people want to come and live in our country shouldn't they live here under our laws and try to understand our morals?

Don't our laws grant freedom of religion, and - as long as that practice does not contravene other laws - freedom of relgious practice?

The problem doesn't seem to be with our laws, but rather that we've discovered our laws don't always sit so well with our morals.

We have laws against incitement to hatred. Whats needed is that these get applied not only to "traditional" Irish banging on against newly-incumbent cultures which make them uncomfortable, but also to said newly incumbent cultures when they incite hatred amongst themselves or against others.

The only solution I can see that is feasable is that if someone wanted to live in Ireland (Be they immigrant, or refugee) they should be required to take a class.

And you really believe that would solve the problem? That people would either decide "no, I'm not moving there", or would change their attitudes about their own religion etc?

If it was me, I'd take the class, nod and say yes at the appropriate places, sign any document needed at the end, and then get on with my life as though it had never happened once I was done.

I think that Political Correctness is asking of us, what it does not expect of others, in that it preaches for us to be tolerant, yet requires no such thing of other parties.

Isn't that exactly what tolerance is? Its not a reciprocal respect....its the decision to put up with something that you would prefer to be otherwise.

You seem to be suggesting that tolerance is a bad thing*, and that what we really need is a "trade of respect" instead, where you only accord the other side as much respect as they accord you.

jc

* Maybe I should say "not the ideal course" instead of "a bad thing".

Wibbs

bonkey wrote:

More correctly, the banned all overt religious items, of which headscarves happen to be the one (perhaps the most common) that a fuss was kicked up about.

I'm just waiting for the parents of a Muslim child to take a teacher to court in France for wearing a wedding ring.

That's a bit of a stretch tbh :rolleyes: . As you pointed out they banned all overt religious items. A wedding ring is hardly religious anymore. It had entered the common vernacular of marriage. Headscarves/burkhas are a highly overt manifestation of a culture that to western eyes at least seems to deem women unequal. The extreme of that is an opinion that seems to deem women who don't follow the practice to be little more than whores.

Trade of respect is not such a bad thing, otherwise the perception might be that our tolerance might be mistaken for weakness.


BTW nice post on the subject by Karl Hungus

Vangelis

Karl Hungus wrote:

Anyway Vangelis, a little long winded I know (Yes, I have put a lot of thought into this), but I hope that answers your question and then some.

Yup, that was a good post, Karl! I have nothing to add or contradict.
Just one thing.. Do you by any means happen to be a social worker?

Hagar

bonkey wrote:

I'm just waiting for the parents of a Muslim child to take a teacher to court in France for wearing a wedding ring.

Keep waiting.
I live in France and wear a wedding ring, it is a piece of jewelry.

I have two. Both bought by my wife. The same woman, not one of four. I've put on a few pounds over 24 years, but she seems to think I was worth the investment.
There are notices up at my son's school asking all observers of Ramadan to make themselves known to the the school staff so that their dietery needs may be accommodated.
Has this been done in Dublin?
Is anything done in the ME to facilitate Christian strict observance of Lent?

Sand

Burkas are designed to remove women from life, to make them indistinguishable non-entities and make them dependant on men as liasons with the real world. The argument that they choose to wear them doesnt make a whole lot of sense - did everyone in the 50s feel it was best to send the pregnant woman to jail (effectively) or was it just that a lot of people were intimidated into silence through fear of ostracisation by that pillar of the community, the parish priest? Effectively, any young Muslim girl can be forced through family pressures into wearing a burka, cutting her off from any "external" contact or influences.

And the Burka isnt an Islamic form of dress - plenty of Islamic women either content themselves with a headscarf or dressing like anyone else ( and "Western" dress for women isnt bikinis by default either, the impression I get from some is that the burka is the only other option for modesty to your birthday suit). The burka is derived from the culture it comes from - desert tribes. Which is where the problem and the solution lies.

As Karl has said, attempts to force people not to wear the burka by law will probably be counter productive. Instead the government should cut off or close down any insititution that is in anyway funded or connected to the Saudi government, and refuse visas or entry to any Immans sent by the Saudis to speak in Ireland. With their oil money theyve been busy funding the spread of the most puritan, hostile and hateful brand of Islam throughout the Islamic and western world, destroying countless "local" variants of Islamic practise. If we let the Saudis dictate the religious/social standards of Islam in Ireland we will only create trouble for ourselves and our children down the line. Let Irish muslims determine Irish islamic practise, without outside interference. The British tried a live and let live strategy with hardline immans and they got the tube bombings and alienated muslim ghettos.

Banning burkas however is equally disgusting. The West cannot push its so-called democracy and liberal attitudes on other cultures. And I hate Europe and the US for believing that they can.

Like others, I would love to hear the "actual" democracy youre comparing us to? And secondly, if we dont push our so called democracy and liberal attitudes on immigrants, were going to have tens of millions of undemoractic and illiberal people in our nations, who will most likely ( and already are in some cases) forge a common identity in opposition to the democractic and liberal attitudes you hate so much. Hardly a recipe for social calm is it?

Or we could work a multi-cultural compromise, for example an Irish woman can seperate from her husband under Irish law, unless shes a muslim in which case she must take her chances with Sharia law....

That said, I honestly don't think that kind of approach will happen, because it seems very un-PC to expect someone else to change for you, it's you who should bend over backwards to accomidate them, reguardless if they have any respect for your culture or not, and right now, attitudes in Ireland are zealously Politically Correct.

True, most people look for the nearest supposed moral highground and its a race to climb it first. Doesnt matter if an action is right or wrong, its whether its *seen* to be right or wrong thats important. Your idea of an introduction class would be literally savaged if it was ever proposed as a realistic policy. People would be far too busy establishing they were holier than thou to actually exam the issue of bedding immigrants into what will be a very different society in most cases.

I recently saw a programme about immigrants in the Netherlands, specifically an arab man marrying his dutch wife. They were looking at a government tape the Dutch had for immigrants, and when it came to showing blocks of flats the wife said something about the tape subvertly telling immigrants that these flats are where youre going to live, houses are too good for you etc etc - finding that moral high ground. It took her husband, the guy who immigrated, to point out that the flats were miles better than what most immigrants came from.

pretty*monster

Victor wrote:

Do you support streakers rights?

Well, yes if it comes down to it I suppose I do.


The problem with the burka is not the item of clothing, it is the attitude behind it that says that there is something about a woman's body that must be covered up.

To me this suggests to one of two things.
Either the female form is somehow dirty or disgraceful and must be hidden away.
Or men are so unable to control themselves that women must hide themselves away to avoid getting raped.

I find both these views highly offensive.
But they can't be changed by simply banning burkas.