Burkas - how do you respond?

simu

So, imagine you are walking down some street in Ireland and you see a woman covered from head to toe in a burka. What are your initial thoughts? How do you respond?

Ought the wearing of these garments be outlawed or subject to public disapproval as the like of Kevin Myers suggests?

Well, I think that people ought to be able to wear them if they wish and I don't see why people should be obliged to show their faces to the world unless in a setting where this is neccessary for communication such as in a courthouse or in a school, or for the taking of passport photos.

OfflerCrocGod

I hate them. They shouldn't be outlawed though, if someone has an insane belief they can keep it as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

Random

I wouldn't give it a seconds thought to be honest ...

Let people do as they wish.

Victor

I've only ever seen one Burka in real-life, but head scarves are common enough.

While showing some deferrence to others' customs, I find addressing orthodox muslims in the plural and not just to the "man" to be slightly preferable.

One thing I do happen to do is if a woman is wearing a (muslim) head scarf is that I will be slightly more formal and when giving her money will put it on the counter, not in her hand.

And while flowing robes are meant to conceal their "charms", for one woman I met they really showed them off.

nobodythere

I would look philosophically to the sky and say, "What the hell's a burka?"

Hagar

Would you look at the sexy eyebrows on her. Hubba Hubba.

Talliesin

When the US capture of Kabul was the current news I was struck by how the Burka really became a symbol of how Afghani women were being bossed about by men from different cultures.

First the Taliban insisted they were them, whether they wanted to or not.

Then Western journalists insisted they take them off, whether they wanted to or not.

Frank Grimes

simu wrote:

Ought the wearing of these garments be outlawed or subject to public disapproval as the like of Kevin Myers suggests?

I don't see why anyone should care what another person wears, let alone suggest that we need laws telling people to remove items of clothing in public.
I think people should look what Kevin Myers was suggesting in this way:
If it was only "born and bred" Irish women deciding they wanted to wear clothes like that:
A. would people be objecting and
B. if it was suggested that dressing this way should be outlawed, what would people's reaction be?
For all I know there could well be an Irish female convert who wears the full veil but it's being put across as only "them" (i.e. immigrants) who are wearing these clothes and the impression seemingly being given is that it's ok to start suggesting laws to regulate how much clothes people wear as, after all, it's not going to affect "us".

simu

Talliesin wrote:

When the US capture of Kabul was the current news I was struck by how the Burka really became a symbol of how Afghani women were being bossed about by men from different cultures.

First the Taliban insisted they were them, whether they wanted to or not.

Then Western journalists insisted they take them off, whether they wanted to or not.

Yeah, I agree. It's weird.

Shabadu

The day I take an opinion of Kevin Myers seriously is the day I start reading the Independent, and that's not going to happen tbh. I literally cannot *stand* these all or nothing points of view, how all or nothing of me, I know.

What concerns me is how or why the woman came to the choice to wear it. Does she feel it is her choice? Has her choice been influenced by fear? Would she feel she could choose not to wear it one day if she changed her mind?

Like everything, it is relative. It is a very important part of some women's lives in a spiritual sense, and not so much to others. It's when people start imposing their own personal judgements on others that I feel a line has been crossed, whether it's from those who are Muslim, or Non-Muslim.

rsynnott

Who the **** is Kevin Myers? And what business is it of his? If someone feels that they should wear a particular item of clothing because of their beliefs, that is surely not a problem? If they are being compelled to by another person, of course, that's a completely different matter. Would Mr Myers suggest that nuns be required to wander round in bikinis, or similar? Probably not. So why this?

Shabadu

Kevin Myers- a 'controversial ' "journalist" associated w/ The Times. Writes 'an Irishman's Diary'. In general, an all-round gobshíte.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Myers

rsynnott

Ah, yes, I've read that. Ireland Uber Alles type; waste of skin. Tho he gets some credit for standing up to SF.

Vangelis

When I see women with burkas, I tend to get curious. They seem so shy and little talkative. I respect their customs, but think it is sad that women should hide themselves like that. Still I wouldn't say that those barely dressed women of the West are any better. :eek:

Cianos

I dont see what the big deal at all is...who cares what ppl wear?

Talliesin

simu wrote:

Yeah, I agree. It's weird.

Not weird, just sad.

fly_agaric

simu wrote:

So, imagine you are walking down some street in Ireland and you see a woman covered from head to toe in a burka. What are your initial thoughts?

Please, please, I'll pray to Allah 5 times a day if you promise not to chop my infidel head off/blow me and all the other tools of shaitanic Western capitalism milling around Blanch. shopping centre to bits.
/sick jk.

I haven't seen anyone wearing Burka in Ireland. I have seen some women with Saudi-type full face veils with only the eyes showing. They give me the creeps TBH.

simu wrote:

How do you respond?

I would behave as I normally would, which is to say I wouldn't respond at all.

simu wrote:

Ought the wearing of these garments be outlawed or subject to public disapproval as the like of Kevin Myers suggests?

No to banning. If people are stupid/duped enough to actually want to wear a burka on the street in Ireland that is their problem. I'd disapprove I suppose - as I might when I'd see someone walk past with their ársecrack sticking out of the top of their jeans, but at the end of the day its none of my business really.

simu wrote:

Well, I think that people ought to be able to wear them if they wish and I don't see why people should be obliged to show their faces to the world unless in a setting where this is neccessary for communication such as in a courthouse or in a school, or for the taking of passport photos.

I agree. It seems a bit extreme to ban them. There should not be any "right" accorded to the wearing of such an item as, say part of a freedom of religious expression however. If your employer, or the state (for security checks for instance, or to get a passport or driver's licence) wants you to take it off and you (or you husband) object, tough!

OfflerCrocGod

Talliesin wrote:

Then Western journalists insisted they take them off, whether they wanted to or not.

What journalists were those - I don't remember them at all Did they not get in trouble?

Talliesin

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

What journalists were those

The ones looking for photographs of women taking off their burkhas to symbolise the liberation of Kabul.

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Did they not get in trouble?

Hell no, they got a good photograph and the women put their burkhas back on quickly and ran off in case they'd been spotted.

pretty*monster

I find the dotion that any woman should be told, ro feel she has to cover up her body in such a way utterly revolting.

But I find the idea of the government dictaing wha clothes we should wear equally revolting.

It's a tough one all right.

OfflerCrocGod

Talliesin wrote:

The ones looking for photographs of women taking off their burkhas to symbolise the liberation of Kabul.

Examples?

Talliesin wrote:

Hell no, they got a good photograph and the women put their burkhas back on quickly and ran off in case they'd been spotted.

I was talking about the journalists, not the women. If Western journalists had gone around demanding women in a muslim country remove their Burkas so they they could take pictures signifying the said womens liberation from a repressive muslim regime I'm certain there would have been a huge fuss and mess - I don't remember such a controversy.

Syth

I am a big believer in personal liberties, but I think there are some places where people should be forced to remove burkas, eg banks.

rsynnott

Syth wrote:

I am a big believer in personal liberties, but I think there are some places where people should be forced to remove burkas, eg banks.

Ah, yes; show some respect to the money-god.

Victor

pretty*monster wrote:

But I find the idea of the government dictaing wha clothes we should wear equally revolting.

Do you support streakers rights?

Dave!

I was on the bus the other day and I saw an Irish (looking) woman getting on with her Arab (looking) husband and (presumably) their kid, and the woman was wearing a Muslim head-scarf thing (not a burka, though). I just spent most of the bus journey wondering why someone would actually convert to such a faith, even if they loved the person they were with and they asked them to convert.

Now, the woman could well have been Israeli or something, or could have been Muslim all her life, or not at all... but the thought was there, that's all. It's not really relevent if they were actually Muslim.

Zombrex

DaveMcG wrote:

I just spent most of the bus journey wondering why someone would actually convert to such a faith, even if they loved the person they were with and they asked them to convert.

Well you could also wonder why someone would sit in a room with a load of other people on a sunny sunday morning listening to a man drone on and on about people who have been dead for thousands of years ...

The thing to remember is that the majority of muslim women (i would imagine, i haven't actually taken a poll or anything), don't see the scarf as an act of oppression, they see it as a commitment to their faith.

Now, I personly think it is silly, but then I think all religion is silly. I don't think it is any more silly than sitting in church on sunday, or only eating fish on Friday. But to other Irish not doing these things can be seen as loss of commitment and spirtuality.

I do think that it is rather ironic that people would want to force women to not wear the scarfs because they are, to some, a symbol of a religion that is supposed to oppress women ... :rolleyes:

utopian

Vangelis wrote:

When I see women with burkas, I tend to get curious. They seem so shy and little talkative. I respect their customs, but think it is sad that women should hide themselves like that. Still I wouldn't say that those barely dressed women of the West are any better. :eek:

I think that equating women forced to wear those garments with immodest Western women is incredible. Surely Kevin Myers' point was that these garments do not seem to be worn by choice. Perhaps he is wrong and these garments are worn because these women are so shy.

Also, he said that we have social taboos about hiding one's face. If my buddies and I decide to walk around in balaclavas, that would probably be viewed as something more than a fashion-statement.

I'm not sure that I would favour banning them, but it is not self-evident that people may wear whatever they wish.

Charles Bronson

You cant get in to some shops wearing a sweat top with a hood. Bikers helmets must be removed, and if you try walking in to a bank wearing a balaclava you will be surrounded by cops with guns in minutes. Hiding the face is should be taboo for all or none.

Vangelis

utopian wrote:

I think that equating women forced to wear those garments with immodest Western women is incredible. Surely Kevin Myers' point was that these garments do not seem to be worn by choice. Perhaps he is wrong and these garments are worn because these women are so shy.

I have heard.. that the women who wear burkas do so volunteerly. But their arguement is also that it is a tradition. They volunteerly follow their traditions.

Also, he said that we have social taboos about hiding one's face. If my buddies and I decide to walk around in balaclavas, that would probably be viewed as something more than a fashion-statement.

I'm not sure that I would favour banning them, but it is not self-evident that people may wear whatever they wish.

Men in balaclavas are sexy. :cool: Having said that, don't think that I like hooded Al-Qaeda-men.. What you say sounds right. Partially. But I am not qualified to write a whole dissertation about forced clothing. So I'll leave it at that.

Gazza22

When i see a women with a burka, tbh i wouldn't give it two thoughts.

The only thing that would be in my mind sometimes would be if she is wearing it of her own free will or being forced by the men in her life.

Dimitri

Personally i think if nothing else dressing like that must be very uncomfortable, but if thats the way you want to dress thats fine by me. On the other hand i'm totally opposed to religious symbols in state institutions and fell all cruxificies, statues, crosses, and religious attire should be completely banned. How someone dresses in their sparetime is entirely up to them. I also agree with the bank scenario. Motorcyclists have to remove their helmets so too should people wearing burkas.