Introduction of 8 carriage DARTs

Jonny Arson

In the past couple of weeks the new, extended 8 carriage DARTs have come into service and I'm wondering do you feel it's made any difference at all?

It certainly isn't from what I see. The DARTs at rush hour are still ridiculously overcrowded and the danger of people standing on overcrowded trains is still prominent. For example I got on a 8 carriage DART from Bayside at around 8:30 the other morning and still couldn't get a seat. Bottom line is we need more regular DARTs not half hour gaps between trains at rush hour.

With new carriages on their way does anyone know if Ianroid Eireann are planning or are ever going to come the intelligent conclusion of increasing services?

A

Traffic

I think the main idea behind the extension of the DARTS was to provide extra capacity but not a seat for every customer

Why don't they just put on more trains? Sometimes on a Saturday at around 4.30/5.00 I was waiting up to 22 minutes for a train in Bray Station. It's got to the stage where I always take the bus now. Longer journey, but there's always one within 15 minutes and it's closer to where I live so I actually save time!!!

davej

I was on the last carriage of the southbound Dart (leaving howth at 07.40, arriving at Tara 08.07) this morning and it was absolutely jam packed. Some people could not get on at Killester station and the driver made the old "Please stand clear of the doors" announcement.

Part of the problem is that the last carriage is stopping a lot further up the platform then it used to at some of the stations, thus catching people out who then all have to dash for it.

davej

penexpers

davej wrote:

I was on the last carriage of the southbound Dart (leaving howth at 07.40, arriving at Tara 08.07) this morning and it was absolutely jam packed. Some people could not get on at Killester station and the driver made the old "Please stand clear of the doors" announcement.

Part of the problem is that the last carriage is stopping a lot further up the platform then it used to at some of the stations, thus catching people out who then all have to dash for it.

davej

penexpers

Zane from MTV2 wrote:

In the past couple of weeks the new, extended 8 carriage DARTs have come into service and I'm wondering do you feel it's made any difference at all?

It certainly isn't from what I see. The DARTs at rush hour are still ridiculously overcrowded and the danger of people standing on overcrowded trains is still prominent. For example I got on a 8 carriage DART from Bayside at around 8:30 the other morning and still couldn't get a seat. Bottom line is we need more regular DARTs not half hour gaps between trains at rush hour.

With new carriages on their way does anyone know if Ianroid Eireann are planning or are ever going to come the intelligent conclusion of increasing services?

A

I got one for the first time this morning and it did make a difference. Sure you couldn't get a seat (I got on at Clontarf Road) but as the other poster said, the aim isn't to give everyone a seat. Anyway the carraige wasn't jammed like it normally is (this was about 8:45am) and there was plenty of room to stand.

They'll start putting on extra services once the signalling work is completed at the end of the year.

dowlingm

Actually the 8 carriage DARTs (which are new I believe) aren't bringing much more capacity *right now* because some old DARTs are getting mid-life updates (and others are just coming back from gurrier repair).

When these refurbished DARTs re-enter service together with the now-running 8 carriage DARTs the system should get a boost.

loyatemu

penexpers wrote:

They'll start putting on extra services once the signalling work is completed at the end of the year.

afaik DASH phase 2 involves resignalling the loop line (this is where the bottleneck occurs) and that won't happen for another 2 years or so. Until then no extra peak time services

still no excuses for some of the huge gaps in the timetable though - and I'm convinced journey times could be reduced as well (Bray-Connolly was quicker in 1984 when the service started)

MarkoP11

As has been pointed out there is a refurbishment program ongoing which will tie up a significant number of the original fleet till end 2006, that said the fleet has capacity to run a fair few 8 coach sets at least 5 there are a least 2 in service possibly three and they appear to be targeting the worst services which are in the morning rush hour coming in from Howth and Malahide

The small fleet of 10 Alstom coaches has and have continued to be a source of major problems, they have been implicated in 2 major failures in recent times. At least 2 of the 5 sets are out of service awaiting parts and now need a few new windows

Like every transport project everything is long fingered thanks to the 10 year plan hiatus but the city centre signalling upgrade is going ahead and will give 4 more slots an hour but most of that is going to Maynooth and Drogheda only 1 extra DART service. Phase one made some changes at Howth junction and Connolly which will squeeze a little more out of the system

The system is already well beyond what it was designed to take, you can't fault IE, the timetable in rush hour is patchy in places but the result actually moves more trains, but better is possible but there isn't sufficient rolling stock

Journey times went up since there are now 2 extra stations, extra dwell time owing to crush loading and a need to ensure trains arrived on time into the critical city centre section, the off peak times are quicker than the peak ones

Victor

loyatemu wrote:

still no excuses for some of the huge gaps in the timetable though - and I'm convinced journey times could be reduced as well (Bray-Connolly was quicker in 1984 when the service started)

More congestion (more trains and busier level crossings), more stops, improved safety allowances.

MarkoP11

A DART carrying 175 people a coach just doesn't accelerate the same as one with only 70 odd people, one issue arose with 6 coach trains was there was no margin for error at the platform which required a more cautious approach, the 8 coach platforms are 8 meters longer than needed, compare that to somewhere like Glenageary which technical was 1m too short for even a 6 coach train until recently

Those damn door chimes add 5 seconds to every stop * 27 stations thats a further 2 minutes

Most of the extra time on the southside is for level crossings, Lansdowne Rd is the worst

The speed limit between Dun Laoghaire to Glasthule was 30 mph its now 20 mph thats a huge difference

And of course IE are cheating to beat the so called customer charter

CCOVICH

I got a DART to Malahide the other evening at 5.20 from Tara St. and it was still 6 carriages and pretty uncomfortable as far as Harmonstown at that.

I haven't got the 8.12 from Portmarnock in ages, but might give it a go tomorrow morning to see if the extra carriages have been added. This particular DART is especially packed during school/college terms, all the way in from Portmarnock, and is surely an ideal candidate for more carriages (the earlier service is at 7.33, so there is a whole 39 minutes between trains)

Have IE actually said which routes/times will be getting 8 carriage DARTs? I have seen the Ronnie Drew posters and the Craig Doyle adds on TV, but have yet to actually see any extra carriages. This isn't actually a gripe at IE, because

(a) I'm just curious as to where and what time these 8 carriage DARTs are running; and
(b) I didn't feel that an extra 2 carriages would make that much difference anyway.

Maskhadov

They need to purchase more Darts. Having bigger stations is a help but at the end of the day the need more Darts so they can service dublin at peak times more frequently.

BrianD

You know what makes me laugh?

Our ministers go on about this metro - something that not even a drawing or map route yet exists. It doesn't even have fixed termini. Everybody gets excited and says the future is coming. Sometime.

Yet tomorrow morning the minister could announce - I want the resignalling of the Connolly area started and a priority. Simultaneously I am going to electrify the maynooth and Kildare lines and order new rolling stock. Dublin will now have a three line integrated Dart/Metro system.

Then again that would involve somebody making a decision and spending money on something that really isn't that sexy.

daymobrew

CCOVICH wrote:

I have seen the Ronnie Drew posters and the Craig Doyle adds on TV

Craig does radio ads (I think I've heard them on Newstalk) about the extra security at Dublin Airport and how to prepare for it (he talks/gloats about how he uses airports frequently)
During the DART ad I kept thinking, "Craig - you're perfect for an Aircoach ad, a DART's no use to YOU, you can't get to the airport on one"

MarkoP11

6:50 Greystones Malahide
8:25 Malahide Bray
9:45 Bray Howth
11:00 Howth Bray
16:12 Malahide Bray
17:25 Bray Howth or 17:40 Bray Malahide


There are 2 8 coach sets out there just haven't worked out the extra links there are on, an yes I have sought a copy of the timetable

MarkoP11

BrianD wrote:

Yet tomorrow morning the minister could announce - I want the resignalling of the Connolly area started and a priority. Simultaneously I am going to electrify the maynooth and Kildare lines and order new rolling stock. Dublin will now have a three line integrated Dart/Metro system.

Hold that thought its a lot nearer than you might believe

loyatemu

The speed limit between Dun Laoghaire to Glasthule was 30 mph its now 20 mph thats a huge difference

there are a number of very slow sections - can nothing be done about these? Dun Laoughaire-Glasthule is a joke, you could get out and walk quicker. Also eliminating level crossings should be prioritised - it wouldn't cost much (in the grand scheme of things).

MarkoP11

Level crossing removel will cost a fortune, Lansdowne Rd is to go when the new stadium is built, the crossings on the Howth branch are not in the high frequency area that leaves Merrion Gates, Sidney Parade, Sandymount and Serpentine Avenue, find a way to get rid of them and you will be doing very well

The speed limit on the Howth branch is 40mph for some reason it used to be 50mph that said I've done it at close to 60 recently enough, thats fixable apart from Grand Canal Dock and Dun Laoghaire the speed limits have not changed at all since 1984, Grand Canal Dock has no effect really since you are stopping regardless. The ATP system was tweaked heavily to improve speeds at speed restrictions in the mid to late 1980's not the other way around as some seem to think

It won't a difference to capacity though

Victor

loyatemu wrote:

there are a number of very slow sections - can nothing be done about these?

You could build a new straight(ish) railway.

Also eliminating level crossings should be prioritised - it wouldn't cost much (in the grand scheme of things).

You either have to raise or lower either the railway or each of the roads.

Lower the railway - risk of flooding (there is already a marginal risk of flooding on the line).

Raise the railway - rebuild the railway from Booterstown to Grand Canal Dock - I'm sure the sunbathers will appreaciate this.

Raise of lower the roads - distinct inconvenience to those living immediately next to the railway (for about 100m either side) as tehy won't be able to access their properties by car anymore. Merrion Gates would mean the mother of all interchanges.

In short little change from €100m-€300m

loyatemu

Victor wrote:

You could build a new straight(ish) railway.

the dunlaoghaire - dalkey section is fairly twisty but I've been on underground railways that have tighter turns and run much quicker. Really a 20mph limit on a major commuter railway is ridiculous

Victor wrote:

In short little change from €100m-€300m

I can't believe it would cost this much - you could build 20 miles of motorway for 300m.

Lansdowne road is being replaced anyway - close serpentine avenue altogether, its not heavily used.

Merrion gates - the road could be put into a short tunnel, would majorly improve traffic flow, might require CPO of a few houses around the crossing.

markop11 wrote:

It won't a difference to capacity though

if the trains run quicker, they occupy the track for less time and you can run extra services.

MarkoP11

The advantage in time is minimal it might save 1 or 2 minutes, what it does elinimate is uncertainity and delays when things go wrong

If you removed all the crossings you would have to go back to basics and start moving all the signals around to get a consistent spacing

parsi

daymobrew wrote:

Craig does radio ads (I think I've heard them on Newstalk) about the extra security at Dublin Airport and how to prepare for it (he talks/gloats about how he uses airports frequently)
During the DART ad I kept thinking, "Craig - you're perfect for an Aircoach ad, a DART's no use to YOU, you can't get to the airport on one"

That ad annoys me with its bland phrase asking you to leave behind anything that might add delays at security without specifying what those things might be - even if they told people not to wear belts with large metal buckles it would be a start...

D'Peoples Voice

Jonny Arson wrote:

In the past couple of weeks the new, extended 8 carriage DARTs have come into service and I'm wondering do you feel it's made any difference at all?

Are all the DART carriages back from Siemens yet?

loyatemu

no. I think 6 of them are back.

MarkoP11

12 are back, 8 still MIA, 56 still to travel.

None in service

Victor

Why is there two 2-car sets in Inchicore?

_Kaiser_

MarkoP11 wrote:

BrianD wrote:

Yet tomorrow morning the minister could announce - I want the resignalling of the Connolly area started and a priority. Simultaneously I am going to electrify the maynooth and Kildare lines and order new rolling stock. Dublin will now have a three line integrated Dart/Metro system.

Hold that thought its a lot nearer than you might believe

I was wondering why a 2.5 year old thread had been ressurected but then this gave me a laugh. The Maynooth/Kildare lines still aren't electrified and the signalling hasn't been done either yet (has it?). Sure they've added more trains but Docklands isn't quite working out as planned (yet).

Why does everything have to take forever in this country??

Victor

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Why does everything have to take forever in this country??

Martin Cullen had a kitchen accident and they can't find his thumb?

MarkoP11

Victor wrote:

Why is there two 2-car sets in Inchicore?

Its one of the Alstom ones, its in store as is one in Fairvew, they seem to be missing some key parts, bundles of wires are hanging out of panels. To be honest they are only fit for scrap really too much of liability in service

Siemens take about 90% of the blame for the refurbishment project which in turn is the hold up on full 8 coach operation. IE tied to bury it but word got lose, http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/whereismydart/ its long but the only correct summary of the mess

Maynooth line signalling and electrification is currently at study stage, tenders issued for more DART coaches last June.

JHMEG

Short answer, according to that article: "Iarnród Éireann are not taking a firm line with Siemens and this clearly shows project management from the outset was weak or non existent."

To be expected of the public service. PPARS anyone?

MarkoP11

On the other hand, and I can't tell you exactly why since legal are still in but Siemens are likely in my opinion to lose at least a 8 figure sum on the contract and unlike other projects it will now cost less than budget (40 million) since it was a fixed price contract with penalties or so I'm told

Siemens did not deliver, Irish Rail buried there head in the sand. It was clear early on when Siemens didn't sign a CCTV supplier till 3 months after the expected first completed coach. This would still be hidden if it wasn't a EU contract, the details in the tender are enough to hang Siemens and Irish Rail since it said 24 months and then gave the contract signed on date. It took ages to find it

What worse in many respects is the fact it was buried by Irish Rail. Every time questions where asked the reason for delay changed spokespeople who kept denying a serious problem until challenged with contract details, its not there fault that Siemens messed up that said without a doubt they could have done a better job of monitoring Siemens.

It will be at least Jan 2009 before full 8 coach operation starts

Victor

MarkoP11 wrote:

Its one of the Alstom ones, its in store as is one in Fairvew, they seem to be missing some key parts, bundles of wires are hanging out of panels. To be honest they are only fit for scrap really too much of liability in service

And the other set? I think its a 1984.