Improving Dublin Bus

antoinolachtnai

Sickcert, What do you mean when you say 'private course'? One that only drivers attend?

Flukey

We need better night services.

The absence of a bus service between 11:30pm and 12:30am is crazy. There are many people wanting to travel during that hour, but they are not serviced. The buses bring thousands of people into town all night and then abandons them totally for an hour, before returning with a limited service, that is if the Nitelink is running that night. I know the demand is not as high for that hour, but there still should be some services during it, 7 nights a week.

The Nitelink is good, but has flaws. There should be inbound buses. For a lot of people now, going home means going into town, or going into town and back out again. The Nitelink does not facilitate those people, or at best for only one part of their journey. For example, if you lived in Dun Laoghaire and were out for the night in Swords, you'd have to get a taxi into town, to get a Nitelink home.

There should be more pick up points. I've often been on a half empty Nitelink, getting emptier as it goes out, passing willing and paying customers. Sure, it would slow things down a bit if it did pick them up, but given the small amount of traffic at that time, you'd still get to your destination quickly. Maybe they would have to restructure fares a little, but surely a company wanting to make a profit, should not be ignoring potential customers in this way.

The Nitelink should have a wider range of start points. The regular buses bring people all over the city during the evening, but seem to expect that people will all be starting their return journey from around the D'Olier Street, Westmoreland Street, College Street triangle. People's journeys start from all over the city and its suburbs, places that a bus got them to earlier, but can't get them home from later.

If some of these things were addressed, more people would use the Nitelink. A few years ago we had the whole debate of the shortage of taxis at night. There never was a shortage of taxis, just a total absence of buses and Darts. There is no shortage of taxis at 8pm, 9pm or 10pm, because people are using the buses then, but many of those same people are left without that option later, and so the taxi queues grow.

The Nitelink is good. I use it often when I am in town, but there is scope for improvement so that it can cater for the needs of the many customers it ignores. The Nitelink is under utilised, as you will see often with pretty empty buses. I am sure that is part of the reason that Dublin Bus don't see a point in extending it, as there isn't the demand. Still, part of that is that it is in the mindset of people. Although they may have come into town earlier, there isn't a bus to take them home so the tendency is to go looking for a taxi. Many of those taxi users would take a bus, if they thought one was available.

A broader and improved Nitelink service, would help change that mindset. So things like inbound routes, routes serving more areas, more pick-up points, more services etc., would certainly help. There is a lot of potential in the Nitelink which I often look at as a good idea, but a missed opportunity.

fly_agaric

SickCert wrote:

Were moving more towards profit than public! ... Private courses for staff are aiming us at profit realisation...

...Shudders
Looks like the bus service in Dublin will be getting worse if that's the case.

cdebru

markpb wrote:

Yes, we are. Everyone else deals with traffic. Everyone else is expected to be on time. Why should DB drivers be any different?

Out of curiosity, I presume there's no way for DB management to know when drivers are rediculously late? Do they presume everything is fine and dandy?

LOL

So the traffic situation in Dublin is dire so you think Bus drivers should be penalised when they get stuck in traffic

Can you perhaps suggest ways that Bus drivers are responsible for the traffic and what they could do to avoid it considering they are on a fixed route

At the moment controllers call drivers on the radio for there current location if drivers are late they call control for instruction

DB has plans to fit a real time monitoring system using GPS which will give the controller a view of the position of all buses he is controlling

markpb

cdebru wrote:

So the traffic situation in Dublin is dire so you think Bus drivers should be penalised when they get stuck in traffic. Can you perhaps suggest ways that Bus drivers are responsible for the traffic and what they could do to avoid it considering they are on a fixed route.

Maybe you should re-read the earlier posts. I was referring to drivers who are starting their shift and are late for a mid-route pickup. If a driver is late at the start of his/her shift then its their own personal fault for being late, just like I assume responsibility for being late for my work. I can't just point to traffic and expect everyone to look away.

If, on the other hand, a driver is late for a second route because his first bus was late, then there is a problem with the scheduling and he/she should highlight it to management.

Whatever the cause, leaving upwards of 90 people sitting on a bus, usually in a place where they can't get off and change buses is totally unacceptable and has never happened in any other city I've been to.

DB has plans to fit a real time monitoring system using GPS which will give the controller a view of the position of all buses he is controlling

And this system won't be up and running till 2010 if I've heard right. Why is it taking so long to simply fit the buses with GPS?

cdebru

markpb wrote:

Maybe you should re-read the earlier posts. I was referring to drivers who are starting their shift and are late for a mid-route pickup. If a driver is late at the start of his/her shift then its their own personal fault for being late, just like I assume responsibility for being late for my work. I can't just point to traffic and expect everyone to look away.

If, on the other hand, a driver is late for a second route because his first bus was late, then there is a problem with the scheduling and he/she should highlight it to management.

Whatever the cause, leaving upwards of 90 people sitting on a bus, usually in a place where they can't get off and change buses is totally unacceptable and has never happened in any other city I've been to.?

Except the driver actually starts work at the depot where the driver signs on

as long as the driver has signed on time he is not late



Takeovers mid route delays happen because Buses arrive early it is virtually impossible to predict the exact arrival time of a bus on a given day

Lets say a Bus is due to arrive in Parnell Square at 13:00 if it arrives at 12:40 then it is early the take up driver is not late untill after 13:00

As a rule drivers turn up 10 minutes early however they are not paid to do that and it a gentlemans agreement between drivers as drivers dont like hanging around waiting either. However as it is not paid for there is no obligation on drivers to turn up early.


The easiest way around it would be for the company to overlap duties ie have the driver taking up due at parnell square at 12:45 and the bus due at 13:00

The down side of this is that it would be part of the drivers working day and would reduce the actual time that a driver could drive for


Another problem is that if drivers are late going on their break due to be held up in traffic if the driver has less than 45 minutes for their break they are entitled to take their full break which means returning late
(remembering that in that 45 minutes the driver has to walk down town to the canteen purchase something to eat eat it and get back up to the changeove point 10 minutes early which effectively means a 35 minute break)

Normally control will regulate the bus that the driver is due to take up so that it only operates to the City centre however if it is due to be picked up in town in less than 45 minutes the chances are that it will already have left the outer termini with its full destination showing

markpb wrote:

And this system won't be up and running till 2010 if I've heard right. Why is it taking so long to simply fit the buses with GPS?

I dont know I believe funding was one issue But management incompetence is probably another

SickCert

Maybe you should re-read the earlier posts. I was referring to drivers who are starting their shift and are late for a mid-route pickup. If a driver is late at the start of his/her shift then its their own personal fault for being late, just like I assume responsibility for being late for my work. I can't just point to traffic and expect everyone to look away

From my days on the 11's - we were required to report for your shift 26 minutes before the parnell square pick up time. This is Donnybrook garage and then 26 minutes to walk out and get a 46a to town - it couldnt be done and at christmas was just laughable. Its also very hard to tell the wife im going to work all week half an hour early minus the pay.

Travelling time is as follows.
Parnell sq 26mins
Eden qy 24mins
Hawkins st 22mins.
Dun Laoghaire 45mins
Bray 1 hour.

Now when you have 2 drivers of similar brain power and the other was finishing and going back to the garage - he brought the bus out to Beaver Row (11's) and the change happened there.

Metrobest

The practice of buses changing drivers in the middle of the city is ridiculous and must by phased out. It's a practice that suits Dublin Bus - not passengers who subidise its incompetent route network. We need new routes and new work practices that involve drivers having their cuppa at the terminus or at the depot.

Also. I feel that the double deckers are clumsy and inefficient. For far too long they dwell at stops, clog up city streets, are late and frustrate passengers. Plus, their fumes damage the environment and pollute cyclists. Double Deckers are a parasite in Dublin. We don't any more double decker buses for Dublin Bus. We need privatisation and competition. We need a modern route network and modern passenger services such as integrated ticketing and digital time displays, and ticket machines at all stops. We need rear door exits and announcements of every stop.

More basic, we need a system where you pay X amount, say 1.60, and this allows you up to 90 minutes travel on DB's network. That's so basic you wonder what's stopping Dublin Bus implementing it. You know, even the Aircoach has integrated ticketing: you can go from Leeson Street - Belfast on one 7EUR ticket. Dublin's Bus won't even let you go from Heuston to Santry on one ticket!

Finally, a more modern fleet would comprise single deckers terminating at each end of the city in Parnell Square and Merrion Square. The cross-city connection passengers would make via efficient underground metro and luas.

is_that_so

Prime Time did a piece on transport last night including QBC. El Ministro maintained that CIE/DB are drawing a "new grid" and that there will be announcements on all of Dublin's transport solutions within the next few weeks.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0929/primetime.html

Metrobest

Sounds like more of the same waffle to me! Seamus Brennan had extremely sensible plans to franchise out 25% of Dublin Bus and look what happened. The unions resist plans that would give passengers better transport options and Bertie Ahern rewards Brennan with a demotion. Somehow, me thinks Cullen's plans for Dublin Bus will be high on PR and spin and low on service improvement.

SickCert

The practice of buses changing drivers in the middle of the city is ridiculous and must by phased out. It's a practice that suits Dublin Bus - not passengers who subidise its incompetent route network. We need new routes and new work practices that involve drivers having their cuppa at the terminus or at the depot.

We have no problems where we have our dinners so long as the full facilities of a canteen are on hand. Town is very messy for handing over, but a route like the 16's where would you change that crew?

I feel that the double deckers are clumsy and inefficient. For far too long they dwell at stops, clog up city streets, are late and frustrate passengers.

Deckers are the way forward, the bendi buses are restricted by the tight narrow irish roads.

Plus, their fumes damage the environment and pollute cyclists.

We have a very modern fleet and you are more likely to see excessive fumes from a lorry or diesel taxi.

More basic, we need a system where you pay X amount, say 1.60, and this allows you up to 90 minutes travel on DB's network.

I agree with this, a simpler approach to travel within the network apart from the validator tickets. Maybe when the new ticket machines come online?

Finally, a more modern fleet would comprise single deckers terminating at each end of the city in Parnell Square and Merrion Square.

Single deckers are on their way out of the fleet.
50 passengers on an WV type single decker compared to about 95 on an AV low floor decker.

The cross-city connection passengers would make via efficient underground metro and luas.

Anyone hear anything about that metro.
Every major city has a light rail system and the luas (the enemy!!) is doing a reasonable job and exceeding all numbers.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

Sounds like more of the same waffle to me! Seamus Brennan had extremely sensible plans to franchise out 25% of Dublin Bus and look what happened. The unions resist plans that would give passengers better transport options and Bertie Ahern rewards Brennan with a demotion. Somehow, me thinks Cullen's plans for Dublin Bus will be high on PR and spin and low on service improvement.

Luas would appear to contradict this. While the unions objected, the govenment put their foot down and people got on with things. Brennans problem is that he is a ditherer who likes to talk the talk (even if the talk is wrong - see the "stilts" episode) rather than do any actual work.

Victor

SickCert wrote:

Why provide a loss making route?

Because under the strict definition of "loss", it doesn't account for the contribution those passengers make to the economy.

Slippin Jimmy

Please dont flame me I have just joined this discussion.
Just to go back to an earlier point about middle doors, Dublin Bus do not make buses with midle doors anymore. For the ones that have middle doors, they are more than likely not used because if you are unloading passengers at a busy street someone might jump on without paying their fare. Then if the bus was in an accient the person that got on would not be insured. So who is to blame, the driver. Why should a driver loose their job over something as simple as that. So that is why they use the front door more often. Plus for safety reason, the door will not be used because if the middle door is open the bus cannot drive. So if a gang of thugs decide to rob the driver, what is he to do?

Xylophonic

antoinolachtnai wrote:

There are plenty of good suggestions here, but the reality is that DB isn't really geared up for change. I'm not talking about any section in particular (and I'm certainly not picking on drivers), but the overall setup.

Dublin Bus is and will change just over time:

• The introduction of integrated ticketing
• The introduction of real time passenger infromation
• In about 5/6 years time the whole fleet will be low-floor
• Journey times will be reduced with the building of QBC's and Bus Priority measures

None of this can happen without funding, funding which the government won't release. Give Dublin Bus time and they will clean up there act. They are still to get 20 replacement buses this year. If anybody watched prime time last night you would have heard minister cullen saying he is working closely with DB who are trying to restructutre there whole network.

Flukey

If the driver changeovers could be done with the efficiency of a good Formula 1 pit stop, it would be much better. If they could try and minimise the need for passengers to get off one bus and on to another for a changeover, that would be good too. Most of the time that it happens it is not because of a breakdown, in which case it might be acceptable, though inconvenient.


Sickcert and Donnybrookghost, any comments on my Nitelink post?

Capt'n Midnight

dazberry wrote:

1. The buses had 3(double) doors, and people got on/off any of these.
2. Tickets were validated on board on a trust basis (i.e. in any one of the 3 or 4 machines). Dublin Bus of course would never trust any of us to manage this one.
3. Tickets(biglietto ) were a lot simplier than here, because generally they just got stamped with a date/time code. No reading/writing/getting stuck show the driver madness.
4. Access to the bus was all prepaid tickets (or smartcard) - no cash afaik (atleast I didn't see anyone ever paying cash).
5. Fares were flat rate (e1 in my case).

markpb wrote:

* Use middle doors where available and encourage passengers to exit through them. Upgrade any bus stops where there might be safety issues and fix any buses that are at risk of breaking down when the middle doors are operated.

http://www.skylineaviation.co.uk/buses/CIEAtlanteans.html

Buses from D219 upwards received a modified body design with dual doors, the staircase moved back opposite the centre doors and four seats less downstairs. This was because of a plan by the company to begin introducing driver only operation of deckers early in 1970. However because of trade union opposition to the move, it was to be a further 16 years before this happened.

Yes folks CIE have been buying buses with two sets of doors for the last 35 years, and despite periodic attempts to entice Irish Passengers to use them, they don't or they try to get on on the middle doors.
On Italian buses they have separate doors to get on and others to get off and it works, but not here.

If we could get the NRA to give a tiny percentage of the budget to Dublin Bus to subsidise tickets back to Continental EU levels that would help too. I alway thought travel 90 was a joke - not enough time to do what anything and catch a bus home.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=1253
More on CIE Atlanteans, I used to think they were the nicest looking buses.

Dub13

Metrobest wrote:

More basic, we need a system where you pay X amount, say 1.60, and this allows you up to 90 minutes travel on DB's network. That's so basic you wonder what's stopping Dublin Bus implementing it. You know, even the Aircoach has integrated ticketing: you can go from Leeson Street - Belfast on one 7EUR ticket. Dublin's Bus won't even let you go from Heuston to Santry on one ticket!

A travel 90 ticket will let you travel across the Dublin Bus network for 90min and it costs around 1.60.So nothing is stopping Dublin Bus implementing it as its already there.

They also have one day rambler's which cost only 3.20.

As for Aircoach....I don't think it takes a great system to integrate two routes,what do you do just show the driver your ticket...?

Xylophonic

Dub13 wrote:

They also have one day rambler's which cost only 3.20.

They cost €5

Victor

Xylophonic wrote:

They cost €5

A book of 5 costs €17 (up from €16).

Dub13

Xylophonic wrote:

They cost €5

As Victor said a book of 5 costs €17, so €17 ÷ 5 = €3.40

DublinWriter

RainyDay wrote:

Probably because of the amount of smoking that still occurs on the upper deck.

Ah yes, smokers, the scapegoats that keep on giving!

Three words to improve the service - BRING BACK CONDUCTORS.

Xylophonic

DublinWriter wrote:

Three words to improve the service - BRING BACK CONDUCTORS.

How can that improve the service when you will have to pay the wages of about 1000 conductors? The services will suffer then, journey times will be better but how can threy buy buses if they are to pay 1000n conductors every week...

DublinWriter

Xylophonic wrote:

How can that improve the service when you will have to pay the wages of about 1000 conductors? The services will suffer then, journey times will be better but how can threy buy buses if they are to pay 1000n conductors every week...

The argument is about improving the service of Dublin Bus, not improving it's cost effectivness.

Having conductors would decrease the time buses hold up a queue of traffic behind them *and* allow the centre doors to be used.

You could make the same lame arguement about the Health Service - why bother paying the wages of some 10,000 nurses when you can get the Doctors to do their job for a little extra money?

...and remember when conductors were eliminated, the drivers had a substanial increase in their wages.

London Bus would *never* get rid of it's conductors as it would cause traffic chaos in London.

SickCert

The absence of a bus service between 11:30pm and 12:30am is crazy. There are many people wanting to travel during that hour, but they are not serviced. The buses bring thousands of people into town all night and then abandons them totally for an hour, before returning with a limited service, that is if the Nitelink is running that night. I know the demand is not as high for that hour, but there still should be some services during it, 7 nights a week.

Sickcert and Donnybrookghost, any comments on my Nitelink post?

Must apologise as i didnt see the above!
The nitelinks have been reduced over the past few months as passengers have dropped off in a huge way since taxi de-reg. Ok the buses are still jammed on the weekend and whenever Tom Jones is on OR match day, they try to add extra buses then.
As for the extra run at 1230 (say to loughlinstown) arriving at 0140 and back in the shed at 2am - are the controllers willing to stay and supervise? Driver will be working an extra hour too. Depot inspector has to stay back.
Your up to €100 in OT payments so far.
During the week this service would only be half full, trouble almost likely - so an extra staff car will have to be at hand for the area.
Who should foot the bill and why?

Three words to improve the service - BRING BACK CONDUCTORS.

It is sad to say but they will never return. Pity they were our best PR men ever!

BuffyBot

London Bus would *never* get rid of it's conductors as it would cause traffic chaos in London.

Ermm..they have on most routes, and the few remaining ones will lose them soon...

gjim

London Bus would *never* get rid of it's conductors as it would cause traffic chaos in London.

When was the last time you were on a bus in London, the sixties?

We don't need conductors back. We need to make buses work like a rail system while retaining the flexibility that buses offer. Here's my action plan for Dublin bus:

1. Adjust routes to offer proper integration facilities with other modes.
2. Introduce a zero tolerance for anti-social behaviour and fare avoidance. This might require legislation but it should be automatically a Garda matter and you should be taken to a Garda station to give your details and pay your fine. Absolutely no anti-social behaviour or smoking/drinking/etc. should be tolerated.
3. Once you have that you can introduce a trust system for tickets so that drivers can concentrate on driving and keeping an eye on the bus. Phase-out accepting cash altogether.
4. All new buses to have multiple doors for fast passenger loading/unloading. Combined with the trust system for tickets, this would ensure that even at a busy stop the bus should be stationary for less than a minute. This would allow much higher frequencies (you'd never end up with a queue of buses trying to pull into a stop) and could shorten particular journey times very considerably.
5. Implement a real time passenger information system for stops and on board buses.
6. Use the feed back from the above to run routes like a railway system; i.e. drivers would be feed information from a central system and, for example, would be instructed to slow down a bit if they were catching up with the next bus so that "clumping" on long routes couldn't happen.
7. Using the real-time information system to control things, the timetables for busy routes should read something like "every 5 minutes during peak hours, every 12 minutes off peak" and this should be what actually happens.
8. Using the real-time information system to control things, introduce clockface timetabling for less busy routes and have proper timetables calculated for particular stops. E.g. the timetable would read "bus X stops here at 13, 29 and 49 minutes past the hour."
9. With a highly efficient, high capacity, rapid and modern bus system, it finally becomes justifiable to start introducing fully dedicated bus lanes; these would be physically separated from the rest of the traffic system like the Luas.
10. I know there are serious logistical constraints in terms of staff and depot facilities but the route system needs to be rethought from the ground up. If it requires capital expenditure to build new depots, etc. so be it.

None of this is fanciful; all of this has been done elsewhere but it would require serious money, effort and management /political skills to introduce. Also while I'm very strongly in favour of the Dublin Rail Plan (with the airport link) and Platform 11's position on rail in Dublin generally, in terms of "bang per buck" spending a half a billion to do the above would probably do more to tranform the city for the good.

Tarabuses

markpb wrote:

I didn't know we ever "made" buses :P

If by "we" you mean CIE then we did make buses until production was taken over by Van Hool McArdle back in the '70s.

SickCert

...and remember when conductors were eliminated, the drivers had a substanial increase in their wages.

We got a lump sum for changing from an TPO driver (two person) to an OPO driver (one person) status. Cant remember the figure but it was 50% paid in tax!

Introduce a zero tolerance for anti-social behaviour and fare avoidance. This might require legislation but it should be automatically a Garda matter and you should be taken to a Garda station to give your details and pay your fine. Absolutely no anti-social behaviour or smoking/drinking/etc. should be tolerated.

Whos going to be the initial enforcer of this prior to the arrival of the garda?
With some routes the bus will never get anywhere AND its the same in Glasgow and other large cities! After dark some upper decks are no go areas.

nlgbbbblth

BrianD wrote:

Passengers need to be encouraged to go upstairs on buses rather than crowding the downstairs saloon. People seem to be afraid to make their way through the bus and find a seat.

This was always something that infuriated me when I used Dublin Bus.

Hard to police but I have seen some bus drivers refuse to continue the journey until all possible seats are filled.