Improving Dublin Bus

markpb

While the government debates its 10 year Transport plan "coming soon/shortly", here are a few ideas I have about how to improve the existing bus system in the meantime. What are your ideas/suggestions/criticisms?

* Use middle doors where available and encourage passengers to exit through them. Upgrade any bus stops where there might be safety issues and fix any buses that are at risk of breaking down when the middle doors are operated.

* Sell tickets at busy bus stops, i.e. city centre stops and more importantly outer bus stops. Ban onboard cash payments at those stops. Clearly sign that bus drivers will not accept cash at those stops.

* Resume bus lanes immediately after junctions instead of 100m after. This means buses can take full advantage of bus lanes instead of waiting for traffic trying to clear the lane.

* Cut out delays mid-route caused by changing drivers (especially if the replacement driver isn't present when the bus arrives) and changing passengers between buses.

* Emphasize and improve grid-based routes such as the 17A which connect with Malahide and Swords road bus routes and the Dart line. Bus tickets (90 minute tickets) are important for this, as is more regular services. Off peak frequencies of 30 minutes will never encourage connections.

* Improve on dart feeder services by having circular routes with pickups in areas surrounding dart stations. Integrated ticketing of any kind, even 90 minute tickets is a must for this. 103/104 are not the way dart feeder services should be run.

BrianD

* Use middle doors where available and encourage passengers to exit through them. Upgrade any bus stops where there might be safety issues and fix any buses that are at risk of breaking down when the middle doors are operated

The Dublin Bus fleet is quite a modern fleet and nearly all the buses being delivered are not fitted with centre doors. This is allow space for wheelchair areas onboard.

Passengers need to be encouraged to go upstairs on buses rather than crowding the downstairs saloon. People seem to be afraid to make their way through the bus and find a seat.

Upgrade any bus stops where there might be safety issues. This is a bit of a sweeping statement!

rainbow kirby

-Improve the service on certain routes which are particularly busy at certain times of day (Route 17, I'm looking at you...)
-More Xpresso (limited stops) buses going from large centres to the city centre
-A direct bus from Tallaght to UCD which doesn't go through the city centre
-More buses in general...

RainyDay

BrianD wrote:

Passengers need to be encouraged to go upstairs on buses rather than crowding the downstairs saloon. People seem to be afraid to make their way through the bus and find a seat.

Probably because of the amount of smoking that still occurs on the upper deck.

bazzer

markpb wrote:

* Use middle doors where available and encourage passengers to exit through them.

I would rather see those buses with middle doors have those areas converted to install more seats.

SickCert

* Cut out delays mid-route caused by changing drivers (especially if the replacement driver isn't present when the bus arrives) and changing passengers between buses.

Routes like the 46a need to be changed midway, otherwise the next driver could be heading into parnell square on the same bus as a passenger - which is included in his work time! It very hard too judge just right the travelling time and sometimes the next driver may not be on the ball. Gentlemans agreement is to be out 10mins prior (not company rule).

* Use middle doors where available and encourage passengers to exit through them. Upgrade any bus stops where there might be safety issues and fix any buses that are at risk of breaking down when the middle doors are operated.

We dont make centredoor buses anymore. How can stops be upgraded?

* Sell tickets at busy bus stops, i.e. city centre stops and more importantly outer bus stops. Ban onboard cash payments at those stops. Clearly sign that bus drivers will not accept cash at those stops.

It is a great idea - but tourists struggle as it is with the autofare system.

* Sell tickets at busy bus stops, i.e. city centre stops and more importantly outer bus stops. Ban onboard cash payments at those stops. Clearly sign that bus drivers will not accept cash at those stops.

The security for street (stop) sales would remove all profit.

* Resume bus lanes immediately after junctions instead of 100m after. This means buses can take full advantage of bus lanes instead of waiting for traffic trying to clear the lane.

This was looked at but cars are required to have a feed in section of road otherwise junctions would block.

Zaph0d

Just guessing but with a name like SickCert, are you a Dublin bus driver?

What would you recommend to improve the service?

markpb

SickCert wrote:

Routes like the 46a need to be changed midway, otherwise the next driver could be heading into parnell square on the same bus as a passenger - which is included in his work time! It very hard too judge just right the travelling time and sometimes the next driver may not be on the ball. Gentlemans agreement is to be out 10mins prior (not company rule).

I sort of understand the reason for it but I don't understand why its necessary in Dublin and not in other cities. I travelled bus longer routes in LA where there were no bus/bus driver changes at all.

SickCert wrote:

We dont make centredoor buses anymore. How can stops be upgraded?

I didn't know we ever "made" buses :P

Ideally, IMHO, routes which have most of their unloading in one or two places (ie city centre terminating routes) should be run with single-door buses. Any other routes where there is a lot of loading/unloading should have double doors. It's well known that using two doors reduces dwell time signifigantly.

SickCert wrote:

It is a great idea - but tourists struggle as it is with the autofare system.

Again, lots of other cities have them, the DART stations have them and they could give change and accept notes, which would make them a lot easier to use than the autofare system on the bus.

SickCert wrote:

The security for street (stop) sales would remove all profit.

Possibly, but I could point to the numerous parking meters all over the city which would contain a lot more cash and which are generally secure. If everyhing in Dublin was hindered because bad people might do bad things to them, we'd never do anything.

gobdaw

Markpb wrote:

* Use middle doors where available and encourage passengers to exit through them. Upgrade any bus stops where there might be safety issues and fix any buses that are at risk of breaking down when the middle doors are operated.

SickCert wrote:

We dont make centredoor buses anymore. How can stops be upgraded?

On the existing buses with centre doors! Centredoor buses are not now provided because for, various nebelous reasons, these centre dooors were not being opened by the drivers and ended a waste of space and seating capacity.

Markpb wrote:

* Sell tickets at busy bus stops, i.e. city centre stops and more importantly outer bus stops. Ban onboard cash payments at those stops. Clearly sign that bus drivers will not accept cash at those stops.

SickCert wrote:

It is a great idea - but tourists struggle as it is with the autofare system.

Not so- most countries have ticket sales principally or mainly offbus. Anyway, lets have a system to suit US and not "the tourists"

Markpb wrote:

* Sell tickets at busy bus stops, i.e. city centre stops and more importantly outer bus stops. Ban onboard cash payments at those stops. Clearly sign that bus drivers will not accept cash at those stops.

SickCert wrote:

The security for street (stop) sales would remove all profit.

Again, other countries seem able to opperate systems that include street sales in public highvisability stops. How about Luas? Havent heard of any problems, and they sell tickets at all stops. Real costings on the waste of bus time, driver labour and wasted time by passangers because of journey times unnecessary lengthened would be very interesting to see.

Markpb wrote:

* Improve on dart feeder services by having circular routes with pickups in areas surrounding dart stations. Integrated ticketing of any kind, even 90 minute tickets is a must for this.

Yeah.

Markpb wrote:

* Resume bus lanes immediately after junctions instead of 100m after. This means buses can take full advantage of bus lanes instead of waiting for traffic trying to clear the lane.

SickCert wrote:

This was looked at but cars are required to have a feed in section of road otherwise junctions would block.

Which is more important, cars or public transport?

daymobrew

markpb wrote:

* Resume bus lanes immediately after junctions instead of 100m after. This means buses can take full advantage of bus lanes instead of waiting for traffic trying to clear the lane.

ASIDE: I wrote to Owen Keegan (Director of Traffic for Dublin City Council) recently about this.
As a cyclist I was interested in the other side of the junction where the bus lane ends to allow drivers turn left.

I asked that that short stretch be made 'left turn *only*'. This would remove those jumping the queue (as they nip back into the normal lane before the bus lane restarts) and make it safer for cyclists. It's quite scary when people make rapid lane changes, often well before the bus lane ends - they often make wide movements which would take out a cyclist if alongside.

Mr Keegan said that such a 'left turn *only*' setup was being introduced on new bus lanes. Good stuff.

ON TOPIC: I'd love to see fixed price fares, like so many places in the US.
I was in San Francisco a few weeks back and the fares were $1.50 (up from $1.00 where they'd been for years). As you boarded you could ask for a 'transfer' which worked like the Travel 90 tickets.
Aside: some of the routes use electric buses, powered by overhead wires. It's quite impressive.

dazberry

TBH I think all these tweaks are just trying to make up for a fundimentally flawed bus system. Like daymobrew I was away recently too, and what I noticed was:

1. The buses had 3(double) doors, and people got on/off any of these.
2. Tickets were validated on board on a trust basis (i.e. in any one of the 3 or 4 machines). Dublin Bus of course would never trust any of us to manage this one.
3. Tickets(biglietto ) were a lot simplier than here, because generally they just got stamped with a date/time code. No reading/writing/getting stuck show the driver madness.
4. Access to the bus was all prepaid tickets (or smartcard) - no cash afaik (atleast I didn't see anyone ever paying cash).
5. Fares were flat rate (e1 in my case).
6. Generally buses had a reasonable frequency - you didn't mind waiting because you new one would turn up (if it wasn't already there - not like having 3 buses on the quays and not a driver to be found!).

I know there are other variables too, but what I've listed above worked really really well (evening forgetting about no 5). Personally I don't know how we went so wrong?

D.

markpb

dazberry wrote:

TBH I think all these tweaks are just trying to make up for a fundimentally flawed bus system.

True that but to be honest, I don't see any massive changes coming in public transport in Ireland anytime soon. Certainly not under the curent government anyway. A lot of small changes might have some positive benefits. A lot of the things I suggested would requre little or no extra spending.

dazberry wrote:

Personally I don't know how we went so wrong?

Lots of big promises from people who have no vested interest in public transport. Small improvements don't win votes, promises of big changes might.

SickCert

On the existing buses with centre doors! Centredoor buses are not now provided because for, various nebelous reasons, these centre dooors were not being opened by the drivers and ended a waste of space and seating capacity.

The last rear doored buses we got in '99 had a fault that meant they air-locked (wouldnt close again) and while open it acted as a clutch - safety feature to prevent driving off.

Which is more important, cars or public transport?

Depends on who you are? Driver or passenger.
The two have to go together, with priority going towards the 'Bulk' carrier.
Without the small sections of roads leading up to bus lanes, no cars would ever turn left.

Sell tickets at busy bus stops, i.e. city centre stops and more importantly outer bus stops. Ban onboard cash payments at those stops. Clearly sign that bus drivers will not accept cash at those stops.

What denotes a busy stop? One of my hates is the 3/4 stops around the Ballsbridge hotels. New tourists arriving every day.
No one knows were cash only! OR no change (money) an instant jaw dropper.
The hotels dont tell them but maybe that isnt their job to, maybe PR in 59.

What would you recommend to improve the service?

Living dangerously , get rid of all the out of date managers and be inventive.
Try more new technology, our ticket machines are 15 years old - another example!

Just guessing but with a name like SickCert, are you a Dublin bus driver?

Yeah i hate to see the job being knocked down, public transport has been neglected here for years and needs kicking into touch.

cdebru

Most of the stuff the OP suggested is just common sense but it would require some effort not just on the part of DB

The only one that would be problematic would be the non changing of Drivers on cross city routes
The work time directives are pretty strict on driving times and about to get stricter with the introduction of the 48 hour week
If the drivers dont change in the city centre then it would increase costs basically because
1 Drivers would have to drive empty buses back to the depot to have their break or finish their duty or the travelling time to outer termini to take up buses or make their own way back to depot would be included in the working day with the obvious decrease in available driving time
Drivers have to be supplied with somewhere to take their break so you cant just leave someone in the middle of santry or finglas rathfarnham etc and tell them to have a break

It would require extra buses and or extra drivers and the costs associated with both

cdebru

SickCert wrote:

Living dangerously , get rid of all the out of date managers and be inventive.
Try more new technology, our ticket machines are 15 years old - another example!

.

The new ticket machines obviously have not made it to Donnybrook yet

Are you in for a treat they are slower than the old ones prepare yourself for odd looks as you are your passengers look at each other waiting the couple of seconds for the ticket machine to catch up with you

Talk about reducing dwell time Dublin Bus management have just managed to increase it dramatically with the purchase of extra slow ticket machines

SickCert

Are you in for a treat they are slower than the old ones prepare yourself for odd looks as you are your passengers look at each other waiting the couple of seconds for the ticket machine to catch up with you

This is the first step, be it slow. But reliable machines that dont just pack up and die, paper jammed machines and buses carrying free peeps!
No profit in a free bus.

cdebru

SickCert wrote:

This is the first step, be it slow. But reliable machines that dont just pack up and die, paper jammed machines and buses carrying free peeps!
No profit in a free bus.

Dublin Bus is not supposed to make profits it is supposed to provide a public service for the best possible return for the money spent

If you want to work for a company that just wants to make profit I suggest you try working for Aircoach

It is not a first step these machines will be around for probably the next 15 years or so. Buying a decent machine that issues tickets when you press the buttons not 2 or 3 seconds later and does not pack in or get a paper jam is surely possible

It is yet another example of the incompetence of Dublin Bus management that ranks up there with purchasing buses that have to have the lights turned off at night time so the driver can see where he is going

SickCert

Dublin Bus is not supposed to make profits it is supposed to provide a public service for the best possible return for the money spent

Were moving more towards profit than public! After years of chucking money away, things are starting to tighten up. Private courses for staff are aiming us at profit realisation. If we dont move this way then the likes of FirstBus will have the edge, aircoach etc.

cdebru

SickCert wrote:

Were moving more towards profit than public! After years of chucking money away, things are starting to tighten up. Private courses for staff are aiming us at profit realisation. If we dont move this way then the likes of FirstBus will have the edge, aircoach etc.

Well then you are moving in the wrong direction

What private courses are moving you towards profit realisation

And for the record DB made a surplus last year of over 2 million euro

I think you are mistaking using the resources that of the company for the best service possible for the money spent and profitability


How do you think turning Dublin Bus into a profit making organisation will give it the edge on private companies
What will give DB an edge is providing the best service it can possibly deliver not how much profit appears on the accounts at the end of a given year

The only advantage that DB has on private companies is that its number one goal should be to keep as many passengers happy as possible by providing the best service possible where as private companies number one goal is to make a profit for its shareholders
DB does not have shareholders that are looking for a return it has a shareholder that wants it to provide a good service
Passengers dont give a fiddlers **** how much profit you make they want a reliable quality service that offers value for money


Good public service is the key not profit

SickCert

And for the record DB made a surplus last year of over 2 million euro

And this should increase sooner rather than later.
Many of routes that are showing little life are either being re-routed, extended or removed. Other areas that im not willing to discuss in detail, staff sickness , accidents and others are being sorted out too.

The recent 145 extension to the QBC turned the biggest loss making route into an earner. The 14/48a has yet to mature and may need alterations, 13b goodnight. Others will follow in time 17/18?

The more coins in the safe the better for all! The goverment held its 170 buses back from DB.

I dont want DB to make the same mistakes as the NBC of 1986 - i believe DB may be ready for the agenda of privatisation.

My god the topics gone all over the place!

cdebru

Why should it increase

I think you have lost the plot already DB should not just provide services because they are profitable they should provide services because there is a public need

Do you believe that DB should be privatised

I honestly think you are in the wrong job go to aircoach

SickCert

I think you have lost the plot already DB should not just provide services because they are profitable they should provide services because there is a public need

Why provide a loss making route? Bertie stood up some months ago and said DB reorganise your network. We are doing.

I honestly think you are in the wrong job go to aircoach

Im actually a very popular driver on my route, lets not get personal were having a great debate.

_Kaiser_

How about:

- Skipping some of those "profit realisation" courses and sending drivers and management (specifically those in Clontarf, Phibsboro and Harristown) on Customer Service courses and having this monitored on a regular basis (the equivalent of how a callcentre records calls staff take). If I spoke to customers the way some of these people do, I'd have been fired years ago.


- Accountability. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault, and the controller on the road is never reachable. The attitude that passengers should just accept that the bus they've been waiting maybe 20/30 mins for isn't going to show ("cause we have no driver") is ridiculous - especially on routes such as the 239 which are only one every 1/2 hours), though this isn't confined just to DB, BE are as bad.
Another thing is staff refusing to give their names (if a customer wants to follow up, cause of course there's NEVER anyone more senior available).


- Penalties to be introduced against drivers who are frequently late/are reported on several occasions. Maybe this is already in place, but this leads to my next point...


- Transparancy. If, as a customer, you log a complaint, you'll never hear anything about what action was taken nor does anything seem to change.


Now in fairness, there are some great drivers and members of staff in DB, but - going on my experience as a customer of the company for 20+ years - it sometimes seems like CIE found every ignorant Dub around and gave them jobs! As I said, this doesn't apply to all staff, but it does reflect badly on those who DO do their jobs well - remember: everyone remembers a bad experience, and will tell others about it quicker than they will a good one.

This is what needs to change. DB need to focus on customer satisfaction as their primary objective (as someone else said, its mandate is not to turn a profit but provide a service) and only then will we start to see improvements.

cdebru

SickCert wrote:

Why provide a loss making route? Bertie stood up some months ago and said DB reorganise your network. We are doing.

Why provide a loss making service because it is a public service

Public transport is a public service If profit is your only goal then that is easy

get rid of about 30% of drivers change most of the rest on to bogie duties morning peak and evening peak skeleton service in between no service on most routes after 8:30 in the evening light saturday service and no sunday service
the company would save a fortune on wages diesel etc and would be very very profitable
But it would be a ****e public service.

Dublin Bus is paid for public service contracts to provide services to areas that could not support an unsubsidised service

The logical conclusion of your arguement would be why should the ESB run electricity out to the rural areas there is no profit in it nor in providing them with telephones etc
in fact why should they have ambulances or gardai

Reorganising the network does not mean scrapping non profitable routes

SickCert wrote:

Im actually a very popular driver on my route, lets not get personal were having a great debate.

Not getting personal I honestly think you are in the wrong company if you think DB should only provide services that are capable of returning a profit

Not to mention the what kind of effect that would have on the traffic situation in this city if you force everybody in unprofitable areas to use private motor cars

cdebru

Kaiser2000 wrote:

- Penalties to be introduced against drivers who are frequently late/are reported on several occasions. Maybe this is already in place, but this leads to my next point...

I presume you are not suggesting that drivers should be penalised because of the traffic situation in this city

Buses run late because the traffic is **** what would you expect them to do

_Kaiser_

cdebru wrote:

I presume you are not suggesting that drivers should be penalised because of the traffic situation in this city

Buses run late because the traffic is **** what would you expect them to do

What about when theres a row of buses at the terminus and not one driver around so it leaves on time? Or they leave early? And the excuse of traffic doesn't hold when it happens regardless of the time/day

Zaph0d

SickCert wrote:

Routes like the 46a need to be changed midway, otherwise the next driver could be heading into parnell square on the same bus as a passenger - which is included in his work time! It very hard too judge just right the travelling time and sometimes the next driver may not be on the ball. Gentlemans agreement is to be out 10mins prior (not company rule).

Many times I've found my journey delayed by 15 minutes or more while a double decker load of passengers waits for a new driver to arrive. Surely control know the location of all buses and can queue up the next driver.

Most people sitting on a bus at 6pm are private sector workers who would be penalised in their own jobs for holding up 80 customers. I've never heard a late driver apologise or even bother to give an excuse for the delay. The result is that all the drivers reputations are damaged by the few bad ones who can act with impunity.

I doubt many public sector workers bother with the bus seeing as they usually earn more than their private sector counterparts and get free city centre parking. I know I wouldn't.

markpb

SickCert wrote:

The last rear doored buses we got in '99 had a fault that meant they air-locked (wouldnt close again) and while open it acted as a clutch - safety feature to prevent driving off.

I heard that before. To be honest, I can't understand why no-one in DB kicked up a fuss with the manufacturer when there was a fault with the door. I'm aware its a safety feature, but the door is designed to be opened and closed - it's not an emergency exit.

SickCert wrote:

Without the small sections of roads leading up to bus lanes, no cars would ever turn left.

Decent traffic light management would give people in filter-left lanes a chance to get through before the other lane gets gree time again. Blocking bus lanes typically results in half a mile or more of the lane being empty for the sake of two cars.

SickCert wrote:

What denotes a busy stop?

Arbitary figure. The first example that springs to mind is the first 20B stop on Collins Ave where typically 20-30 people load each bus. Just under half of those people pay with cards and a ticket machine would save a lot of time.

SickCert wrote:

One of my hates is the 3/4 stops around the Ballsbridge hotels. New tourists arriving every day. No one knows were cash only! OR no change (money) an instant jaw dropper.

Are there any signs on the bus stop saying cash only, no change? Or signs saying where to buy bus tickets? You can't expect people arriving in the country for a few days to just know these things. The new bus shelter signs are an improvement in this respect.

SickCert wrote:

The hotels dont tell them but maybe that isnt their job to, maybe PR in 59.

All bus stop poles should have a sign saying:

Dublin Bus route: xx
Fare to city centre: €1.30
Cash only, no change, no notes.

Try more new technology, our ticket machines are 15 years old - another example!

As was pointed out later on, new ticket machines are being installed right now but the problem in Ireland is big changes will almost always bring the government around to "improve" and "consult", which means long delays, bigger costs and a greater chance the project will die a horrible death. 10 year transport plan anyone? Luas?

SickCert wrote:

Yeah i hate to see the job being knocked down, public transport has been neglected here for years and needs kicking into touch.

Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with DB, I'm well aware the problem lies almost entirely with the government. But in the absense of any big bang changes, there are lots of smaller changes DB could make which would have a marked improvement to service.

markpb

cdebru wrote:

I presume you are not suggesting that drivers should be penalised because of the traffic situation in this city. Buses run late because the traffic is **** what would you expect them to do

Yes, we are. Everyone else deals with traffic. Everyone else is expected to be on time. Why should DB drivers be any different?

Out of curiosity, I presume there's no way for DB management to know when drivers are rediculously late? Do they presume everything is fine and dandy?

antoinolachtnai

There are plenty of good suggestions here, but the reality is that DB isn't really geared up for change. I'm not talking about any section in particular (and I'm certainly not picking on drivers), but the overall setup.

I mean, who could really make these changes? Sure, there's a chief executive and a board all the rest of it, but in practice those people aren't in a position to make deep changes. They are dependent on agreement from people like local authorities and councillors and so forth to make operational changes (say, to substantially change a route). They are dependent on the minister to sanction funds for new developments. No doubt there are IR issues too, but I don't think they're any worse in Dublin Bus than anywhere else.

There is a transitional situation too, between the 'old' monopoly Dublin Bus and the 'new' DB, competing in a regulated market. It is not at all clear how this is going to pan out.

SickCert

Not to mention the what kind of effect that would have on the traffic situation in this city if you force everybody in unprofitable areas to use private motor cars

Not unprofitable areas, empty buses full stop.

- Penalties to be introduced against drivers who are frequently late/are reported on several occasions. Maybe this is already in place, but this leads to my next point...

This may be hard - i once left the shed 15 minutes late through a mechanical fault. A simple flat battery can cost about 10 minutes. Though i do agree, the peeps should be told the full story on my late arrival.

Are there any signs on the bus stop saying cash only, no change? Or signs saying where to buy bus tickets? You can't expect people arriving in the country for a few days to just know these things. The new bus shelter signs are an improvement in this respect.

No info what so ever and this delays the service even more - a simple fare chart on the stop can save you one minute.

Many times I've found my journey delayed by 15 minutes or more while a double decker load of passengers waits for a new driver to arrive. Surely control know the location of all buses and can queue up the next driver.

Control on the flagship 46a route is messy. During the peak 7-10 and 4-7 its controlled by a man in the street and Dun loaghaire station. These men have no knowledge of whats happening at Donnybrook church OR a names list of who takes over. The inbetween period is covered by the garage and Dun Laoghaire so its different hands on all day long.

Now in fairness, there are some great drivers and members of staff in DB, but - going on my experience as a customer of the company for 20+ years - it sometimes seems like CIE found every ignorant Dub around and gave them jobs!

We have in the last 5 years been on three different courses to do with the attitudes of drivers and stress related areas. The customer charter course finished in 2002? but needs to be rerun again for all the new blood.
I know its not just the 'new blood' because i have to share the same canteen with the motley crew. But on the last course (private one) we were told its the same dozen names that keep cropping up - Donnybrook garage.
Give them time, with more inspectors and chief inspectors than ever before and the driving school pumping out drivers - things will hopefully change.