Improving Dublin Bus

markpb

While the government debates its 10 year Transport plan "coming soon/shortly", here are a few ideas I have about how to improve the existing bus system in the meantime. What are your ideas/suggestions/criticisms?

* Use middle doors where available and encourage passengers to exit through them. Upgrade any bus stops where there might be safety issues and fix any buses that are at risk of breaking down when the middle doors are operated.

* Sell tickets at busy bus stops, i.e. city centre stops and more importantly outer bus stops. Ban onboard cash payments at those stops. Clearly sign that bus drivers will not accept cash at those stops.

* Resume bus lanes immediately after junctions instead of 100m after. This means buses can take full advantage of bus lanes instead of waiting for traffic trying to clear the lane.

* Cut out delays mid-route caused by changing drivers (especially if the replacement driver isn't present when the bus arrives) and changing passengers between buses.

* Emphasize and improve grid-based routes such as the 17A which connect with Malahide and Swords road bus routes and the Dart line. Bus tickets (90 minute tickets) are important for this, as is more regular services. Off peak frequencies of 30 minutes will never encourage connections.

* Improve on dart feeder services by having circular routes with pickups in areas surrounding dart stations. Integrated ticketing of any kind, even 90 minute tickets is a must for this. 103/104 are not the way dart feeder services should be run.

BrianD

* Use middle doors where available and encourage passengers to exit through them. Upgrade any bus stops where there might be safety issues and fix any buses that are at risk of breaking down when the middle doors are operated

The Dublin Bus fleet is quite a modern fleet and nearly all the buses being delivered are not fitted with centre doors. This is allow space for wheelchair areas onboard.

Passengers need to be encouraged to go upstairs on buses rather than crowding the downstairs saloon. People seem to be afraid to make their way through the bus and find a seat.

Upgrade any bus stops where there might be safety issues. This is a bit of a sweeping statement!

rainbow kirby

-Improve the service on certain routes which are particularly busy at certain times of day (Route 17, I'm looking at you...)
-More Xpresso (limited stops) buses going from large centres to the city centre
-A direct bus from Tallaght to UCD which doesn't go through the city centre
-More buses in general...

RainyDay

BrianD wrote:

Passengers need to be encouraged to go upstairs on buses rather than crowding the downstairs saloon. People seem to be afraid to make their way through the bus and find a seat.

Probably because of the amount of smoking that still occurs on the upper deck.

bazzer

markpb wrote:

* Use middle doors where available and encourage passengers to exit through them.

I would rather see those buses with middle doors have those areas converted to install more seats.

SickCert

* Cut out delays mid-route caused by changing drivers (especially if the replacement driver isn't present when the bus arrives) and changing passengers between buses.

Routes like the 46a need to be changed midway, otherwise the next driver could be heading into parnell square on the same bus as a passenger - which is included in his work time! It very hard too judge just right the travelling time and sometimes the next driver may not be on the ball. Gentlemans agreement is to be out 10mins prior (not company rule).

* Use middle doors where available and encourage passengers to exit through them. Upgrade any bus stops where there might be safety issues and fix any buses that are at risk of breaking down when the middle doors are operated.

We dont make centredoor buses anymore. How can stops be upgraded?

* Sell tickets at busy bus stops, i.e. city centre stops and more importantly outer bus stops. Ban onboard cash payments at those stops. Clearly sign that bus drivers will not accept cash at those stops.

It is a great idea - but tourists struggle as it is with the autofare system.

* Sell tickets at busy bus stops, i.e. city centre stops and more importantly outer bus stops. Ban onboard cash payments at those stops. Clearly sign that bus drivers will not accept cash at those stops.

The security for street (stop) sales would remove all profit.

* Resume bus lanes immediately after junctions instead of 100m after. This means buses can take full advantage of bus lanes instead of waiting for traffic trying to clear the lane.

This was looked at but cars are required to have a feed in section of road otherwise junctions would block.

Zaph0d

Just guessing but with a name like SickCert, are you a Dublin bus driver?

What would you recommend to improve the service?

markpb

SickCert wrote:

Routes like the 46a need to be changed midway, otherwise the next driver could be heading into parnell square on the same bus as a passenger - which is included in his work time! It very hard too judge just right the travelling time and sometimes the next driver may not be on the ball. Gentlemans agreement is to be out 10mins prior (not company rule).

I sort of understand the reason for it but I don't understand why its necessary in Dublin and not in other cities. I travelled bus longer routes in LA where there were no bus/bus driver changes at all.

SickCert wrote:

We dont make centredoor buses anymore. How can stops be upgraded?

I didn't know we ever "made" buses :P

Ideally, IMHO, routes which have most of their unloading in one or two places (ie city centre terminating routes) should be run with single-door buses. Any other routes where there is a lot of loading/unloading should have double doors. It's well known that using two doors reduces dwell time signifigantly.

SickCert wrote:

It is a great idea - but tourists struggle as it is with the autofare system.

Again, lots of other cities have them, the DART stations have them and they could give change and accept notes, which would make them a lot easier to use than the autofare system on the bus.

SickCert wrote:

The security for street (stop) sales would remove all profit.

Possibly, but I could point to the numerous parking meters all over the city which would contain a lot more cash and which are generally secure. If everyhing in Dublin was hindered because bad people might do bad things to them, we'd never do anything.

gobdaw

Markpb wrote:

* Use middle doors where available and encourage passengers to exit through them. Upgrade any bus stops where there might be safety issues and fix any buses that are at risk of breaking down when the middle doors are operated.

SickCert wrote:

We dont make centredoor buses anymore. How can stops be upgraded?

On the existing buses with centre doors! Centredoor buses are not now provided because for, various nebelous reasons, these centre dooors were not being opened by the drivers and ended a waste of space and seating capacity.

Markpb wrote:

* Sell tickets at busy bus stops, i.e. city centre stops and more importantly outer bus stops. Ban onboard cash payments at those stops. Clearly sign that bus drivers will not accept cash at those stops.

SickCert wrote:

It is a great idea - but tourists struggle as it is with the autofare system.

Not so- most countries have ticket sales principally or mainly offbus. Anyway, lets have a system to suit US and not "the tourists"

Markpb wrote:

* Sell tickets at busy bus stops, i.e. city centre stops and more importantly outer bus stops. Ban onboard cash payments at those stops. Clearly sign that bus drivers will not accept cash at those stops.

SickCert wrote:

The security for street (stop) sales would remove all profit.

Again, other countries seem able to opperate systems that include street sales in public highvisability stops. How about Luas? Havent heard of any problems, and they sell tickets at all stops. Real costings on the waste of bus time, driver labour and wasted time by passangers because of journey times unnecessary lengthened would be very interesting to see.

Markpb wrote:

* Improve on dart feeder services by having circular routes with pickups in areas surrounding dart stations. Integrated ticketing of any kind, even 90 minute tickets is a must for this.

Yeah.

Markpb wrote:

* Resume bus lanes immediately after junctions instead of 100m after. This means buses can take full advantage of bus lanes instead of waiting for traffic trying to clear the lane.

SickCert wrote:

This was looked at but cars are required to have a feed in section of road otherwise junctions would block.

Which is more important, cars or public transport?

daymobrew

markpb wrote:

* Resume bus lanes immediately after junctions instead of 100m after. This means buses can take full advantage of bus lanes instead of waiting for traffic trying to clear the lane.

ASIDE: I wrote to Owen Keegan (Director of Traffic for Dublin City Council) recently about this.
As a cyclist I was interested in the other side of the junction where the bus lane ends to allow drivers turn left.

I asked that that short stretch be made 'left turn *only*'. This would remove those jumping the queue (as they nip back into the normal lane before the bus lane restarts) and make it safer for cyclists. It's quite scary when people make rapid lane changes, often well before the bus lane ends - they often make wide movements which would take out a cyclist if alongside.

Mr Keegan said that such a 'left turn *only*' setup was being introduced on new bus lanes. Good stuff.

ON TOPIC: I'd love to see fixed price fares, like so many places in the US.
I was in San Francisco a few weeks back and the fares were $1.50 (up from $1.00 where they'd been for years). As you boarded you could ask for a 'transfer' which worked like the Travel 90 tickets.
Aside: some of the routes use electric buses, powered by overhead wires. It's quite impressive.

dazberry

TBH I think all these tweaks are just trying to make up for a fundimentally flawed bus system. Like daymobrew I was away recently too, and what I noticed was:

1. The buses had 3(double) doors, and people got on/off any of these.
2. Tickets were validated on board on a trust basis (i.e. in any one of the 3 or 4 machines). Dublin Bus of course would never trust any of us to manage this one.
3. Tickets(biglietto ) were a lot simplier than here, because generally they just got stamped with a date/time code. No reading/writing/getting stuck show the driver madness.
4. Access to the bus was all prepaid tickets (or smartcard) - no cash afaik (atleast I didn't see anyone ever paying cash).
5. Fares were flat rate (e1 in my case).
6. Generally buses had a reasonable frequency - you didn't mind waiting because you new one would turn up (if it wasn't already there - not like having 3 buses on the quays and not a driver to be found!).

I know there are other variables too, but what I've listed above worked really really well (evening forgetting about no 5). Personally I don't know how we went so wrong?

D.

markpb

dazberry wrote:

TBH I think all these tweaks are just trying to make up for a fundimentally flawed bus system.

True that but to be honest, I don't see any massive changes coming in public transport in Ireland anytime soon. Certainly not under the curent government anyway. A lot of small changes might have some positive benefits. A lot of the things I suggested would requre little or no extra spending.

dazberry wrote:

Personally I don't know how we went so wrong?

Lots of big promises from people who have no vested interest in public transport. Small improvements don't win votes, promises of big changes might.

SickCert

On the existing buses with centre doors! Centredoor buses are not now provided because for, various nebelous reasons, these centre dooors were not being opened by the drivers and ended a waste of space and seating capacity.

The last rear doored buses we got in '99 had a fault that meant they air-locked (wouldnt close again) and while open it acted as a clutch - safety feature to prevent driving off.

Which is more important, cars or public transport?

Depends on who you are? Driver or passenger.
The two have to go together, with priority going towards the 'Bulk' carrier.
Without the small sections of roads leading up to bus lanes, no cars would ever turn left.

Sell tickets at busy bus stops, i.e. city centre stops and more importantly outer bus stops. Ban onboard cash payments at those stops. Clearly sign that bus drivers will not accept cash at those stops.

What denotes a busy stop? One of my hates is the 3/4 stops around the Ballsbridge hotels. New tourists arriving every day.
No one knows were cash only! OR no change (money) an instant jaw dropper.
The hotels dont tell them but maybe that isnt their job to, maybe PR in 59.

What would you recommend to improve the service?

Living dangerously , get rid of all the out of date managers and be inventive.
Try more new technology, our ticket machines are 15 years old - another example!

Just guessing but with a name like SickCert, are you a Dublin bus driver?

Yeah i hate to see the job being knocked down, public transport has been neglected here for years and needs kicking into touch.

cdebru

Most of the stuff the OP suggested is just common sense but it would require some effort not just on the part of DB

The only one that would be problematic would be the non changing of Drivers on cross city routes
The work time directives are pretty strict on driving times and about to get stricter with the introduction of the 48 hour week
If the drivers dont change in the city centre then it would increase costs basically because
1 Drivers would have to drive empty buses back to the depot to have their break or finish their duty or the travelling time to outer termini to take up buses or make their own way back to depot would be included in the working day with the obvious decrease in available driving time
Drivers have to be supplied with somewhere to take their break so you cant just leave someone in the middle of santry or finglas rathfarnham etc and tell them to have a break

It would require extra buses and or extra drivers and the costs associated with both

cdebru

SickCert wrote:

Living dangerously , get rid of all the out of date managers and be inventive.
Try more new technology, our ticket machines are 15 years old - another example!

.

The new ticket machines obviously have not made it to Donnybrook yet

Are you in for a treat they are slower than the old ones prepare yourself for odd looks as you are your passengers look at each other waiting the couple of seconds for the ticket machine to catch up with you

Talk about reducing dwell time Dublin Bus management have just managed to increase it dramatically with the purchase of extra slow ticket machines

SickCert

Are you in for a treat they are slower than the old ones prepare yourself for odd looks as you are your passengers look at each other waiting the couple of seconds for the ticket machine to catch up with you

This is the first step, be it slow. But reliable machines that dont just pack up and die, paper jammed machines and buses carrying free peeps!
No profit in a free bus.

cdebru

SickCert wrote:

This is the first step, be it slow. But reliable machines that dont just pack up and die, paper jammed machines and buses carrying free peeps!
No profit in a free bus.

Dublin Bus is not supposed to make profits it is supposed to provide a public service for the best possible return for the money spent

If you want to work for a company that just wants to make profit I suggest you try working for Aircoach

It is not a first step these machines will be around for probably the next 15 years or so. Buying a decent machine that issues tickets when you press the buttons not 2 or 3 seconds later and does not pack in or get a paper jam is surely possible

It is yet another example of the incompetence of Dublin Bus management that ranks up there with purchasing buses that have to have the lights turned off at night time so the driver can see where he is going

SickCert

Dublin Bus is not supposed to make profits it is supposed to provide a public service for the best possible return for the money spent

Were moving more towards profit than public! After years of chucking money away, things are starting to tighten up. Private courses for staff are aiming us at profit realisation. If we dont move this way then the likes of FirstBus will have the edge, aircoach etc.

cdebru

SickCert wrote:

Were moving more towards profit than public! After years of chucking money away, things are starting to tighten up. Private courses for staff are aiming us at profit realisation. If we dont move this way then the likes of FirstBus will have the edge, aircoach etc.

Well then you are moving in the wrong direction

What private courses are moving you towards profit realisation

And for the record DB made a surplus last year of over 2 million euro

I think you are mistaking using the resources that of the company for the best service possible for the money spent and profitability


How do you think turning Dublin Bus into a profit making organisation will give it the edge on private companies
What will give DB an edge is providing the best service it can possibly deliver not how much profit appears on the accounts at the end of a given year

The only advantage that DB has on private companies is that its number one goal should be to keep as many passengers happy as possible by providing the best service possible where as private companies number one goal is to make a profit for its shareholders
DB does not have shareholders that are looking for a return it has a shareholder that wants it to provide a good service
Passengers dont give a fiddlers **** how much profit you make they want a reliable quality service that offers value for money


Good public service is the key not profit

SickCert

And for the record DB made a surplus last year of over 2 million euro

And this should increase sooner rather than later.
Many of routes that are showing little life are either being re-routed, extended or removed. Other areas that im not willing to discuss in detail, staff sickness , accidents and others are being sorted out too.

The recent 145 extension to the QBC turned the biggest loss making route into an earner. The 14/48a has yet to mature and may need alterations, 13b goodnight. Others will follow in time 17/18?

The more coins in the safe the better for all! The goverment held its 170 buses back from DB.

I dont want DB to make the same mistakes as the NBC of 1986 - i believe DB may be ready for the agenda of privatisation.

My god the topics gone all over the place!

cdebru

Why should it increase

I think you have lost the plot already DB should not just provide services because they are profitable they should provide services because there is a public need

Do you believe that DB should be privatised

I honestly think you are in the wrong job go to aircoach

SickCert

I think you have lost the plot already DB should not just provide services because they are profitable they should provide services because there is a public need

Why provide a loss making route? Bertie stood up some months ago and said DB reorganise your network. We are doing.

I honestly think you are in the wrong job go to aircoach

Im actually a very popular driver on my route, lets not get personal were having a great debate.

_Kaiser_

How about:

- Skipping some of those "profit realisation" courses and sending drivers and management (specifically those in Clontarf, Phibsboro and Harristown) on Customer Service courses and having this monitored on a regular basis (the equivalent of how a callcentre records calls staff take). If I spoke to customers the way some of these people do, I'd have been fired years ago.


- Accountability. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault, and the controller on the road is never reachable. The attitude that passengers should just accept that the bus they've been waiting maybe 20/30 mins for isn't going to show ("cause we have no driver") is ridiculous - especially on routes such as the 239 which are only one every 1/2 hours), though this isn't confined just to DB, BE are as bad.
Another thing is staff refusing to give their names (if a customer wants to follow up, cause of course there's NEVER anyone more senior available).


- Penalties to be introduced against drivers who are frequently late/are reported on several occasions. Maybe this is already in place, but this leads to my next point...


- Transparancy. If, as a customer, you log a complaint, you'll never hear anything about what action was taken nor does anything seem to change.


Now in fairness, there are some great drivers and members of staff in DB, but - going on my experience as a customer of the company for 20+ years - it sometimes seems like CIE found every ignorant Dub around and gave them jobs! As I said, this doesn't apply to all staff, but it does reflect badly on those who DO do their jobs well - remember: everyone remembers a bad experience, and will tell others about it quicker than they will a good one.

This is what needs to change. DB need to focus on customer satisfaction as their primary objective (as someone else said, its mandate is not to turn a profit but provide a service) and only then will we start to see improvements.

cdebru

SickCert wrote:

Why provide a loss making route? Bertie stood up some months ago and said DB reorganise your network. We are doing.

Why provide a loss making service because it is a public service

Public transport is a public service If profit is your only goal then that is easy

get rid of about 30% of drivers change most of the rest on to bogie duties morning peak and evening peak skeleton service in between no service on most routes after 8:30 in the evening light saturday service and no sunday service
the company would save a fortune on wages diesel etc and would be very very profitable
But it would be a ****e public service.

Dublin Bus is paid for public service contracts to provide services to areas that could not support an unsubsidised service

The logical conclusion of your arguement would be why should the ESB run electricity out to the rural areas there is no profit in it nor in providing them with telephones etc
in fact why should they have ambulances or gardai

Reorganising the network does not mean scrapping non profitable routes

SickCert wrote:

Im actually a very popular driver on my route, lets not get personal were having a great debate.

Not getting personal I honestly think you are in the wrong company if you think DB should only provide services that are capable of returning a profit

Not to mention the what kind of effect that would have on the traffic situation in this city if you force everybody in unprofitable areas to use private motor cars

cdebru

Kaiser2000 wrote:

- Penalties to be introduced against drivers who are frequently late/are reported on several occasions. Maybe this is already in place, but this leads to my next point...

I presume you are not suggesting that drivers should be penalised because of the traffic situation in this city

Buses run late because the traffic is **** what would you expect them to do

_Kaiser_

cdebru wrote:

I presume you are not suggesting that drivers should be penalised because of the traffic situation in this city

Buses run late because the traffic is **** what would you expect them to do

What about when theres a row of buses at the terminus and not one driver around so it leaves on time? Or they leave early? And the excuse of traffic doesn't hold when it happens regardless of the time/day

Zaph0d

SickCert wrote:

Routes like the 46a need to be changed midway, otherwise the next driver could be heading into parnell square on the same bus as a passenger - which is included in his work time! It very hard too judge just right the travelling time and sometimes the next driver may not be on the ball. Gentlemans agreement is to be out 10mins prior (not company rule).

Many times I've found my journey delayed by 15 minutes or more while a double decker load of passengers waits for a new driver to arrive. Surely control know the location of all buses and can queue up the next driver.

Most people sitting on a bus at 6pm are private sector workers who would be penalised in their own jobs for holding up 80 customers. I've never heard a late driver apologise or even bother to give an excuse for the delay. The result is that all the drivers reputations are damaged by the few bad ones who can act with impunity.

I doubt many public sector workers bother with the bus seeing as they usually earn more than their private sector counterparts and get free city centre parking. I know I wouldn't.

markpb

SickCert wrote:

The last rear doored buses we got in '99 had a fault that meant they air-locked (wouldnt close again) and while open it acted as a clutch - safety feature to prevent driving off.

I heard that before. To be honest, I can't understand why no-one in DB kicked up a fuss with the manufacturer when there was a fault with the door. I'm aware its a safety feature, but the door is designed to be opened and closed - it's not an emergency exit.

SickCert wrote:

Without the small sections of roads leading up to bus lanes, no cars would ever turn left.

Decent traffic light management would give people in filter-left lanes a chance to get through before the other lane gets gree time again. Blocking bus lanes typically results in half a mile or more of the lane being empty for the sake of two cars.

SickCert wrote:

What denotes a busy stop?

Arbitary figure. The first example that springs to mind is the first 20B stop on Collins Ave where typically 20-30 people load each bus. Just under half of those people pay with cards and a ticket machine would save a lot of time.

SickCert wrote:

One of my hates is the 3/4 stops around the Ballsbridge hotels. New tourists arriving every day. No one knows were cash only! OR no change (money) an instant jaw dropper.

Are there any signs on the bus stop saying cash only, no change? Or signs saying where to buy bus tickets? You can't expect people arriving in the country for a few days to just know these things. The new bus shelter signs are an improvement in this respect.

SickCert wrote:

The hotels dont tell them but maybe that isnt their job to, maybe PR in 59.

All bus stop poles should have a sign saying:

Dublin Bus route: xx
Fare to city centre: €1.30
Cash only, no change, no notes.

Try more new technology, our ticket machines are 15 years old - another example!

As was pointed out later on, new ticket machines are being installed right now but the problem in Ireland is big changes will almost always bring the government around to "improve" and "consult", which means long delays, bigger costs and a greater chance the project will die a horrible death. 10 year transport plan anyone? Luas?

SickCert wrote:

Yeah i hate to see the job being knocked down, public transport has been neglected here for years and needs kicking into touch.

Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with DB, I'm well aware the problem lies almost entirely with the government. But in the absense of any big bang changes, there are lots of smaller changes DB could make which would have a marked improvement to service.

markpb

cdebru wrote:

I presume you are not suggesting that drivers should be penalised because of the traffic situation in this city. Buses run late because the traffic is **** what would you expect them to do

Yes, we are. Everyone else deals with traffic. Everyone else is expected to be on time. Why should DB drivers be any different?

Out of curiosity, I presume there's no way for DB management to know when drivers are rediculously late? Do they presume everything is fine and dandy?

antoinolachtnai

There are plenty of good suggestions here, but the reality is that DB isn't really geared up for change. I'm not talking about any section in particular (and I'm certainly not picking on drivers), but the overall setup.

I mean, who could really make these changes? Sure, there's a chief executive and a board all the rest of it, but in practice those people aren't in a position to make deep changes. They are dependent on agreement from people like local authorities and councillors and so forth to make operational changes (say, to substantially change a route). They are dependent on the minister to sanction funds for new developments. No doubt there are IR issues too, but I don't think they're any worse in Dublin Bus than anywhere else.

There is a transitional situation too, between the 'old' monopoly Dublin Bus and the 'new' DB, competing in a regulated market. It is not at all clear how this is going to pan out.

SickCert

Not to mention the what kind of effect that would have on the traffic situation in this city if you force everybody in unprofitable areas to use private motor cars

Not unprofitable areas, empty buses full stop.

- Penalties to be introduced against drivers who are frequently late/are reported on several occasions. Maybe this is already in place, but this leads to my next point...

This may be hard - i once left the shed 15 minutes late through a mechanical fault. A simple flat battery can cost about 10 minutes. Though i do agree, the peeps should be told the full story on my late arrival.

Are there any signs on the bus stop saying cash only, no change? Or signs saying where to buy bus tickets? You can't expect people arriving in the country for a few days to just know these things. The new bus shelter signs are an improvement in this respect.

No info what so ever and this delays the service even more - a simple fare chart on the stop can save you one minute.

Many times I've found my journey delayed by 15 minutes or more while a double decker load of passengers waits for a new driver to arrive. Surely control know the location of all buses and can queue up the next driver.

Control on the flagship 46a route is messy. During the peak 7-10 and 4-7 its controlled by a man in the street and Dun loaghaire station. These men have no knowledge of whats happening at Donnybrook church OR a names list of who takes over. The inbetween period is covered by the garage and Dun Laoghaire so its different hands on all day long.

Now in fairness, there are some great drivers and members of staff in DB, but - going on my experience as a customer of the company for 20+ years - it sometimes seems like CIE found every ignorant Dub around and gave them jobs!

We have in the last 5 years been on three different courses to do with the attitudes of drivers and stress related areas. The customer charter course finished in 2002? but needs to be rerun again for all the new blood.
I know its not just the 'new blood' because i have to share the same canteen with the motley crew. But on the last course (private one) we were told its the same dozen names that keep cropping up - Donnybrook garage.
Give them time, with more inspectors and chief inspectors than ever before and the driving school pumping out drivers - things will hopefully change.

antoinolachtnai

Sickcert, What do you mean when you say 'private course'? One that only drivers attend?

Flukey

We need better night services.

The absence of a bus service between 11:30pm and 12:30am is crazy. There are many people wanting to travel during that hour, but they are not serviced. The buses bring thousands of people into town all night and then abandons them totally for an hour, before returning with a limited service, that is if the Nitelink is running that night. I know the demand is not as high for that hour, but there still should be some services during it, 7 nights a week.

The Nitelink is good, but has flaws. There should be inbound buses. For a lot of people now, going home means going into town, or going into town and back out again. The Nitelink does not facilitate those people, or at best for only one part of their journey. For example, if you lived in Dun Laoghaire and were out for the night in Swords, you'd have to get a taxi into town, to get a Nitelink home.

There should be more pick up points. I've often been on a half empty Nitelink, getting emptier as it goes out, passing willing and paying customers. Sure, it would slow things down a bit if it did pick them up, but given the small amount of traffic at that time, you'd still get to your destination quickly. Maybe they would have to restructure fares a little, but surely a company wanting to make a profit, should not be ignoring potential customers in this way.

The Nitelink should have a wider range of start points. The regular buses bring people all over the city during the evening, but seem to expect that people will all be starting their return journey from around the D'Olier Street, Westmoreland Street, College Street triangle. People's journeys start from all over the city and its suburbs, places that a bus got them to earlier, but can't get them home from later.

If some of these things were addressed, more people would use the Nitelink. A few years ago we had the whole debate of the shortage of taxis at night. There never was a shortage of taxis, just a total absence of buses and Darts. There is no shortage of taxis at 8pm, 9pm or 10pm, because people are using the buses then, but many of those same people are left without that option later, and so the taxi queues grow.

The Nitelink is good. I use it often when I am in town, but there is scope for improvement so that it can cater for the needs of the many customers it ignores. The Nitelink is under utilised, as you will see often with pretty empty buses. I am sure that is part of the reason that Dublin Bus don't see a point in extending it, as there isn't the demand. Still, part of that is that it is in the mindset of people. Although they may have come into town earlier, there isn't a bus to take them home so the tendency is to go looking for a taxi. Many of those taxi users would take a bus, if they thought one was available.

A broader and improved Nitelink service, would help change that mindset. So things like inbound routes, routes serving more areas, more pick-up points, more services etc., would certainly help. There is a lot of potential in the Nitelink which I often look at as a good idea, but a missed opportunity.

fly_agaric

SickCert wrote:

Were moving more towards profit than public! ... Private courses for staff are aiming us at profit realisation...

...Shudders
Looks like the bus service in Dublin will be getting worse if that's the case.

cdebru

markpb wrote:

Yes, we are. Everyone else deals with traffic. Everyone else is expected to be on time. Why should DB drivers be any different?

Out of curiosity, I presume there's no way for DB management to know when drivers are rediculously late? Do they presume everything is fine and dandy?

LOL

So the traffic situation in Dublin is dire so you think Bus drivers should be penalised when they get stuck in traffic

Can you perhaps suggest ways that Bus drivers are responsible for the traffic and what they could do to avoid it considering they are on a fixed route

At the moment controllers call drivers on the radio for there current location if drivers are late they call control for instruction

DB has plans to fit a real time monitoring system using GPS which will give the controller a view of the position of all buses he is controlling

markpb

cdebru wrote:

So the traffic situation in Dublin is dire so you think Bus drivers should be penalised when they get stuck in traffic. Can you perhaps suggest ways that Bus drivers are responsible for the traffic and what they could do to avoid it considering they are on a fixed route.

Maybe you should re-read the earlier posts. I was referring to drivers who are starting their shift and are late for a mid-route pickup. If a driver is late at the start of his/her shift then its their own personal fault for being late, just like I assume responsibility for being late for my work. I can't just point to traffic and expect everyone to look away.

If, on the other hand, a driver is late for a second route because his first bus was late, then there is a problem with the scheduling and he/she should highlight it to management.

Whatever the cause, leaving upwards of 90 people sitting on a bus, usually in a place where they can't get off and change buses is totally unacceptable and has never happened in any other city I've been to.

DB has plans to fit a real time monitoring system using GPS which will give the controller a view of the position of all buses he is controlling

And this system won't be up and running till 2010 if I've heard right. Why is it taking so long to simply fit the buses with GPS?

cdebru

markpb wrote:

Maybe you should re-read the earlier posts. I was referring to drivers who are starting their shift and are late for a mid-route pickup. If a driver is late at the start of his/her shift then its their own personal fault for being late, just like I assume responsibility for being late for my work. I can't just point to traffic and expect everyone to look away.

If, on the other hand, a driver is late for a second route because his first bus was late, then there is a problem with the scheduling and he/she should highlight it to management.

Whatever the cause, leaving upwards of 90 people sitting on a bus, usually in a place where they can't get off and change buses is totally unacceptable and has never happened in any other city I've been to.?

Except the driver actually starts work at the depot where the driver signs on

as long as the driver has signed on time he is not late



Takeovers mid route delays happen because Buses arrive early it is virtually impossible to predict the exact arrival time of a bus on a given day

Lets say a Bus is due to arrive in Parnell Square at 13:00 if it arrives at 12:40 then it is early the take up driver is not late untill after 13:00

As a rule drivers turn up 10 minutes early however they are not paid to do that and it a gentlemans agreement between drivers as drivers dont like hanging around waiting either. However as it is not paid for there is no obligation on drivers to turn up early.


The easiest way around it would be for the company to overlap duties ie have the driver taking up due at parnell square at 12:45 and the bus due at 13:00

The down side of this is that it would be part of the drivers working day and would reduce the actual time that a driver could drive for


Another problem is that if drivers are late going on their break due to be held up in traffic if the driver has less than 45 minutes for their break they are entitled to take their full break which means returning late
(remembering that in that 45 minutes the driver has to walk down town to the canteen purchase something to eat eat it and get back up to the changeove point 10 minutes early which effectively means a 35 minute break)

Normally control will regulate the bus that the driver is due to take up so that it only operates to the City centre however if it is due to be picked up in town in less than 45 minutes the chances are that it will already have left the outer termini with its full destination showing

markpb wrote:

And this system won't be up and running till 2010 if I've heard right. Why is it taking so long to simply fit the buses with GPS?

I dont know I believe funding was one issue But management incompetence is probably another

SickCert

Maybe you should re-read the earlier posts. I was referring to drivers who are starting their shift and are late for a mid-route pickup. If a driver is late at the start of his/her shift then its their own personal fault for being late, just like I assume responsibility for being late for my work. I can't just point to traffic and expect everyone to look away

From my days on the 11's - we were required to report for your shift 26 minutes before the parnell square pick up time. This is Donnybrook garage and then 26 minutes to walk out and get a 46a to town - it couldnt be done and at christmas was just laughable. Its also very hard to tell the wife im going to work all week half an hour early minus the pay.

Travelling time is as follows.
Parnell sq 26mins
Eden qy 24mins
Hawkins st 22mins.
Dun Laoghaire 45mins
Bray 1 hour.

Now when you have 2 drivers of similar brain power and the other was finishing and going back to the garage - he brought the bus out to Beaver Row (11's) and the change happened there.

Metrobest

The practice of buses changing drivers in the middle of the city is ridiculous and must by phased out. It's a practice that suits Dublin Bus - not passengers who subidise its incompetent route network. We need new routes and new work practices that involve drivers having their cuppa at the terminus or at the depot.

Also. I feel that the double deckers are clumsy and inefficient. For far too long they dwell at stops, clog up city streets, are late and frustrate passengers. Plus, their fumes damage the environment and pollute cyclists. Double Deckers are a parasite in Dublin. We don't any more double decker buses for Dublin Bus. We need privatisation and competition. We need a modern route network and modern passenger services such as integrated ticketing and digital time displays, and ticket machines at all stops. We need rear door exits and announcements of every stop.

More basic, we need a system where you pay X amount, say 1.60, and this allows you up to 90 minutes travel on DB's network. That's so basic you wonder what's stopping Dublin Bus implementing it. You know, even the Aircoach has integrated ticketing: you can go from Leeson Street - Belfast on one 7EUR ticket. Dublin's Bus won't even let you go from Heuston to Santry on one ticket!

Finally, a more modern fleet would comprise single deckers terminating at each end of the city in Parnell Square and Merrion Square. The cross-city connection passengers would make via efficient underground metro and luas.

is_that_so

Prime Time did a piece on transport last night including QBC. El Ministro maintained that CIE/DB are drawing a "new grid" and that there will be announcements on all of Dublin's transport solutions within the next few weeks.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0929/primetime.html

Metrobest

Sounds like more of the same waffle to me! Seamus Brennan had extremely sensible plans to franchise out 25% of Dublin Bus and look what happened. The unions resist plans that would give passengers better transport options and Bertie Ahern rewards Brennan with a demotion. Somehow, me thinks Cullen's plans for Dublin Bus will be high on PR and spin and low on service improvement.

SickCert

The practice of buses changing drivers in the middle of the city is ridiculous and must by phased out. It's a practice that suits Dublin Bus - not passengers who subidise its incompetent route network. We need new routes and new work practices that involve drivers having their cuppa at the terminus or at the depot.

We have no problems where we have our dinners so long as the full facilities of a canteen are on hand. Town is very messy for handing over, but a route like the 16's where would you change that crew?

I feel that the double deckers are clumsy and inefficient. For far too long they dwell at stops, clog up city streets, are late and frustrate passengers.

Deckers are the way forward, the bendi buses are restricted by the tight narrow irish roads.

Plus, their fumes damage the environment and pollute cyclists.

We have a very modern fleet and you are more likely to see excessive fumes from a lorry or diesel taxi.

More basic, we need a system where you pay X amount, say 1.60, and this allows you up to 90 minutes travel on DB's network.

I agree with this, a simpler approach to travel within the network apart from the validator tickets. Maybe when the new ticket machines come online?

Finally, a more modern fleet would comprise single deckers terminating at each end of the city in Parnell Square and Merrion Square.

Single deckers are on their way out of the fleet.
50 passengers on an WV type single decker compared to about 95 on an AV low floor decker.

The cross-city connection passengers would make via efficient underground metro and luas.

Anyone hear anything about that metro.
Every major city has a light rail system and the luas (the enemy!!) is doing a reasonable job and exceeding all numbers.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

Sounds like more of the same waffle to me! Seamus Brennan had extremely sensible plans to franchise out 25% of Dublin Bus and look what happened. The unions resist plans that would give passengers better transport options and Bertie Ahern rewards Brennan with a demotion. Somehow, me thinks Cullen's plans for Dublin Bus will be high on PR and spin and low on service improvement.

Luas would appear to contradict this. While the unions objected, the govenment put their foot down and people got on with things. Brennans problem is that he is a ditherer who likes to talk the talk (even if the talk is wrong - see the "stilts" episode) rather than do any actual work.

Victor

SickCert wrote:

Why provide a loss making route?

Because under the strict definition of "loss", it doesn't account for the contribution those passengers make to the economy.

Slippin Jimmy

Please dont flame me I have just joined this discussion.
Just to go back to an earlier point about middle doors, Dublin Bus do not make buses with midle doors anymore. For the ones that have middle doors, they are more than likely not used because if you are unloading passengers at a busy street someone might jump on without paying their fare. Then if the bus was in an accient the person that got on would not be insured. So who is to blame, the driver. Why should a driver loose their job over something as simple as that. So that is why they use the front door more often. Plus for safety reason, the door will not be used because if the middle door is open the bus cannot drive. So if a gang of thugs decide to rob the driver, what is he to do?

Xylophonic

antoinolachtnai wrote:

There are plenty of good suggestions here, but the reality is that DB isn't really geared up for change. I'm not talking about any section in particular (and I'm certainly not picking on drivers), but the overall setup.

Dublin Bus is and will change just over time:

• The introduction of integrated ticketing
• The introduction of real time passenger infromation
• In about 5/6 years time the whole fleet will be low-floor
• Journey times will be reduced with the building of QBC's and Bus Priority measures

None of this can happen without funding, funding which the government won't release. Give Dublin Bus time and they will clean up there act. They are still to get 20 replacement buses this year. If anybody watched prime time last night you would have heard minister cullen saying he is working closely with DB who are trying to restructutre there whole network.

Flukey

If the driver changeovers could be done with the efficiency of a good Formula 1 pit stop, it would be much better. If they could try and minimise the need for passengers to get off one bus and on to another for a changeover, that would be good too. Most of the time that it happens it is not because of a breakdown, in which case it might be acceptable, though inconvenient.


Sickcert and Donnybrookghost, any comments on my Nitelink post?

Capt'n Midnight

dazberry wrote:

1. The buses had 3(double) doors, and people got on/off any of these.
2. Tickets were validated on board on a trust basis (i.e. in any one of the 3 or 4 machines). Dublin Bus of course would never trust any of us to manage this one.
3. Tickets(biglietto ) were a lot simplier than here, because generally they just got stamped with a date/time code. No reading/writing/getting stuck show the driver madness.
4. Access to the bus was all prepaid tickets (or smartcard) - no cash afaik (atleast I didn't see anyone ever paying cash).
5. Fares were flat rate (e1 in my case).

markpb wrote:

* Use middle doors where available and encourage passengers to exit through them. Upgrade any bus stops where there might be safety issues and fix any buses that are at risk of breaking down when the middle doors are operated.

http://www.skylineaviation.co.uk/buses/CIEAtlanteans.html

Buses from D219 upwards received a modified body design with dual doors, the staircase moved back opposite the centre doors and four seats less downstairs. This was because of a plan by the company to begin introducing driver only operation of deckers early in 1970. However because of trade union opposition to the move, it was to be a further 16 years before this happened.

Yes folks CIE have been buying buses with two sets of doors for the last 35 years, and despite periodic attempts to entice Irish Passengers to use them, they don't or they try to get on on the middle doors.
On Italian buses they have separate doors to get on and others to get off and it works, but not here.

If we could get the NRA to give a tiny percentage of the budget to Dublin Bus to subsidise tickets back to Continental EU levels that would help too. I alway thought travel 90 was a joke - not enough time to do what anything and catch a bus home.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=1253
More on CIE Atlanteans, I used to think they were the nicest looking buses.

Dub13

Metrobest wrote:

More basic, we need a system where you pay X amount, say 1.60, and this allows you up to 90 minutes travel on DB's network. That's so basic you wonder what's stopping Dublin Bus implementing it. You know, even the Aircoach has integrated ticketing: you can go from Leeson Street - Belfast on one 7EUR ticket. Dublin's Bus won't even let you go from Heuston to Santry on one ticket!

A travel 90 ticket will let you travel across the Dublin Bus network for 90min and it costs around 1.60.So nothing is stopping Dublin Bus implementing it as its already there.

They also have one day rambler's which cost only 3.20.

As for Aircoach....I don't think it takes a great system to integrate two routes,what do you do just show the driver your ticket...?

Xylophonic

Dub13 wrote:

They also have one day rambler's which cost only 3.20.

They cost €5

Victor

Xylophonic wrote:

They cost €5

A book of 5 costs €17 (up from €16).