Third Level Institutions

MrPinK

Paul_D wrote:

you must be joking, don't tell me that it is sooo bad , i hoped that finnaly i will have a real math in a third level :cool:

Not everyone in the class will have done higher level maths for the Leaving Cert, so 1st year maths is ment to get everyone up to speed for the Probability and Linear Algebra modules in 2nd year. I wouldn't call it junior cert level though, and it does get harder is 2nd year.

drfisher

MrPinK wrote:

Not everyone in the class will have done higher level maths for the Leaving Cert, so 1st year maths is ment to get everyone up to speed for the Probability and Linear Algebra modules in 2nd year. I wouldn't call it junior cert level though, and it does get harder is 2nd year.

TCD Computer Science still requires a Higher C3 in LC Maths (or equivalent).

The TCD Computer Science course has also just been re-accredited by the IEI, which means graduates can join the IEI and use the title Chartered Engineer (CEng). I think DCU is in the process of being evaluated for re-accreditataion. DCU's is currently being re-evaluated.

Paul_D

ok, going back to Edinburgh University.
In their web-site they say that their school of informatics is the best in the UK and one of the best in the world. What you think about that?

How would irish or uk employers would look at degree from Edinburgh. Would this be treated better than from UCD, TCD, or DCU?

damnyanks

Do a search for University tables in the uk it will show how it is etc. They have people who are " big players" int eh w3c ut I cant mrembver his name. Bu t really a degree is a gdree.

DublinWriter

Paul_D wrote:

About two years ago I started develop my own OS in protected mode using assembler, but because it was so difficult I left out it.

If you're into that level of programming then do a Computer Science degree in TCD/UCD.

I know it sounds snobbish, but employers are more impressed with a TCD/UCD degree. Before I get flamed, it's just the way the world works.

Points for IT courses are now at an all time low.

drfisher

Paul_D wrote:

ok, going back to Edinburgh University.
In their web-site they say that their school of informatics is the best in the UK and one of the best in the world. What you think about that?

Edinburgh are very good - they have a 5* rating from the research assessment exercise (RAE). The RAE is UK specific and only 5 institutions have a 5* rating for Computer Science.

Paul_D wrote:

How would irish or uk employers would look at degree from Edinburgh. Would this be treated better than from UCD, TCD, or DCU?

I honestly don't know how much attention employers pay to RAE ratings, which are based on research rather than teaching.

If we're talking ratings, TCD was the only Irish university to be ranked in the top 100 world-wide for science, engineering and IT by the Times Higher Education Supplement. (Have you guessed who I work for yet? )

Giblet

Tallaght is a great place for Comp Sci.

Java, VB, C++, C# and J3D. A great grounding for any programmer, and you also get a CCNA at the end of it all.

It's sad that the points have dropped so low due to everyone wanting to go to the bigger University courses. Tallaght has some great facilities for Computing. Most PC's are new 2.8 prescotts with 512 ram and XP.

rsynnott

Giblet wrote:

VB

*Hisses*

Giblet wrote:

It's sad that the points have dropped so low due to everyone wanting to go to the bigger University courses.

Points have fallen everywhere; fewer people with no interest are getting into it for the money, fortunately. They'll readjust in time.

Giblet wrote:

Tallaght has some great facilities for Computing. Most PC's are new 2.8 prescotts with 512 ram and XP.

Gah, Trinity only has P4-2.4Ghz! Rather better operating system on some of them, tho

Giblet

Ah the VB is only a semester long, with some knowledge of database management added on later. It's mostly Java for the first 2 years, with C++ and C# coming later.

Calina

Paul,

speaking personally, what I would recommend is that you go and get a copy of the course details for all the institutes mentioned here and compare the data in them with what you want to achieve. I know you say that you find them all the same but that, I must confess has not been my experience.

How available that information is varies from one college to another but I have to say in terms of research that I've done in recent years, the websites of DCU, UL, DIT and UCC are particularly helpful in assessing the contents of a course. UCD as far as I remember was totally lousy but that's my experience. I'd mixed feelings about Trinity's documentation. If what you want is not online, you need to get after them.

In terms of the quality of a course/where best to go - a lot depends on what you yourself want to get out of the course - you say you want to go into software development. But this is an option from all of them, and how successful you are depends as much on you as it does on the course you follow. So I'd be reluctant, in your position, to put too much faith in what everyone else says. Your ability to get a software development job out of college is not merely dependent on the university name adorning your degree in other words.

That said, although I think there are a handful of software engineering courses dotted around the UK scene, I think too strong a focus on software development is quite limiting.

People's experiences are different. I loathe seeing IT vs university debates because in the end, they develop into slanging matches which helps no one. I also would venture to say that some of the generalisations that I've seen here are a bit sad - for example, it's not strictly speaking true to say everyone does a masters to get a job. It wasn't my rationale for starting down the road - I have a job and a nice one which I quite like, thanks, but it doesn't stop me from wanting to delve a little further into the field.

The other point which I would make is this: what you want now may not necessarily match what you will want in four years time. I studied modern languages first time out - and loved it. Six years after I graduated, I was working as a systems programmer. And I love it.

What you need most out of your course is the ability to adapt to changing technologies and environments. I get slightly weary to see people listing off all the languages you can learn in college. What matters is that you learn the ability to learn different languages because goddamnit, new ones keep coming along. New software engineering fads keep coming along as well. Learning does not end the day you finish your last exam.

That said, when I was looking to go back to college (part time) I checked with a couple of people who work in the IT industry and they felt that reputation wise, DCU was probably the best. I chose them anyway because what they were offering best suited my needs. But again, as much depends on you as it does on which ever third level institution you choose. It amazed me the number of people - even part time students working fulltime - who whinged because they weren't being spoonfed.

It's not the business of college to spoonfeed you. It's your business to exploit it as fully as you can and realistically, doesn't matter which college it is then.

Paul_D

Thanks, Calina, for your huuuge reply.
Actually after all the discussions I become even more apathetic where to go. I looked through the courses descriptions in some of the universities and again more or less it seems that everybody offering the same things. All have main subjects like programming and math. The are some differences in cool colleges like Imperial London. They, for example, study discrete mathematics in the first year (I don’t even know what is it ). But they are expensive and I’m not gone to go there.

So, you are also saying that DCU probably would be the best choice. I’ve never been there and I’m planning to visit that place. BTW, what bus should I take if I want to go there from Dublin bus station?

P.S. 2 Calina: you said that you were working as a systems programmer. That’s my favorite thing. That’s why I love low-level programming.

And another question, how to access exam-papers in DCU? I want to see would I be able to that.

Zaph0d

You should take the time to walk around the various campuses to see if you think you'd be happy there. You'll be there for four years and you make many of your friends for life there.

Teaching quality in may 3rd level institutions is very variable. Most lecturers have had no training and the most brilliant academics are often unable to explain the basics. In many cases you will end up teaching yourself the courses.

On the other hand, having very intelligent lecturers can be inspirational.

Giblet

Paul_D wrote:

They, for example, study discrete mathematics in the first year (I don’t even know what is it ).

Discrete maths isn't some crazy subject, you do it in first year in Tallaght aswell.

rsynnott

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_Mathematics

Calina

Paul_D wrote:

Thanks, Calina, for your huuuge reply.
Actually after all the discussions I become even more apathetic where to go. I looked through the courses descriptions in some of the universities and again more or less it seems that everybody offering the same things. All have main subjects like programming and math. The are some differences in cool colleges like Imperial London. They, for example, study discrete mathematics in the first year (I don’t even know what is it ). But they are expensive and I’m not gone to go there.

So, you are also saying that DCU probably would be the best choice. I’ve never been there and I’m planning to visit that place. BTW, what bus should I take if I want to go there from Dublin bus station?

P.S. 2 Calina: you said that you were working as a systems programmer. That’s my favorite thing. That’s why I love low-level programming.

And another question, how to access exam-papers in DCU? I want to see would I be able to that.

As far as I know, you need a valid DCU logon to access most of DCU's exam papers.

To get to DCU from the bus station, you need to go to O'Connell Street which is about a 5 minute walk away and pick up an 11 or 13. I think the 19A goes there as well - at least it used to.

DCU generally does an open day sometime in November - recommend trying to get there for it as you will meet some of the lecturers and probably some current students as well. But I recommend you do the same for say UL and Trinity as well. Even allowing for the fact that DCU appears to be getting most of the votes here, there are still different factors involved in making that decision and gut instinct is one of them.

You also have to remember that just about every comp sci course in the world is going to have a core set of subjects that you'll have to cover along the lines of maths, datastructures, programming concepts. So I wouldn't get too hung up on the fact that all the courses appear to be the same. In essence, they will have some very similar points. I can't speak for the others, but if you spend sometime exploring DCU's School of Computing website, you should tumble across information regarding degree projects which will give you an idea of how some people are exploiting their course.

TBH, if you're starting to find the opinions and comments coming at you here a bit bewildering, I'd take a step backwards and reassess exactly what you want to do. I wouldn't, for example. waste time looking at what Imperial College offers if you know you're not going to be going there for cost reasons or whatever. I studied in London for a year and yes, it's not exactly cheap, even if you don't have to deal with fees. The less sure you are of what exactly you want to do, the more bewildering an array of information will be.

What I do in systems programming is very, very different to software development. I keep a mission critical system running 24 hours a day. I haven't at this point, had the impression that that's really what you want to do. I write assembler code every day of my life though. Except Saturdays and Sundays, I mean.

Paul_D

Calina wrote:

I haven't at this point, had the impression that that's really what you want to do.

Actually that was my primary idea. As I said before I have tried to write something on assembler(OS for example), but at this moment I think that I'm not smart enough to play with system programming.
BTW, are system programmers get paid more than ordinary applications ones?

Sarunas

open source operating systems are great place to learn systems programming.

lurk around in lkml, freebsd lists such as arch, current, hackers and cvs-src. maybe netbsd, openbsd or even dragonflybsd and you'll near lots!

then when you know enough, start submitting few simple patches.

ps: its much easier to lurk in many places with gmane and thunderbird. but keep in mind that you have LC too, cause some of those lists are very high traffic.

pps: its easier to learn(for me at least) on bsd because you have a complete operating system, not just a kernel(linux).

rsynnott

Paul_D wrote:

Actually that was my primary idea. As I said before I have tried to write something on assembler(OS for example), but at this moment I think that I'm not smart enough to play with system programming.
BTW, are system programmers get paid more than ordinary applications ones?

The basics aren't really dramatically difficult at all.

Calina

Paul_D wrote:

Actually that was my primary idea. As I said before I have tried to write something on assembler(OS for example), but at this moment I think that I'm not smart enough to play with system programming.
BTW, are system programmers get paid more than ordinary applications ones?

Your last question is loaded - effectively the market changes and the salaries vary according to the market. It depends on your rarity value. For the time being, I guess I do better than quite a few applications programmers, but there are some who would be similar scale and higher. And I think if you were to look at contracting rates, they vary according to what there's greater demand for at any given point in time.

It's not really your level of smartness which is holding you up at this stage - it's your level of knowledge. I wouldn't necessarily worry about it at this stage. If you're aiming for the LC that you claim to be aiming for, you'd be smart enough - you just have to learn it.

drfisher

Paul_D wrote:

The are some differences in cool colleges like Imperial London. They, for example, study discrete mathematics in the first year

Discrete maths is a major part of the maths course in TCD computer science, and is becoming more so as the syllabus is being updated.

Other nive stuff in TCD includes: basic assembler in first year as a means of introducing students to computer architecture (https://www.cs.tcd.ie/Michael.Manzke/1ba3.html) and in second year you get to build your own (basic) computer from basic components (68000 CPU, programmable logic for memory mapping, etc) and write a simple OS (if time permits!). We also have some substantial practical team-based programming projects in both second and third year.

Look here for examples of some of the fourth year projects on offer this year:

https://www.cs.tcd.ie/courses/ss-projects/

You really should talk to the people running these courses. Browsing web sites isn't enough. PM me if you want to talk to staff and students in TCD and visit our facilities.

Graham Day

madramor wrote:

To get the best academic qualifications,

Despite dropping its standards in the past 5 years I still think
DCU's Computer Applications degree is the best.
QUOTE]

Are you taiking the piss. Despite dropping its standards? Dropping its points in order to attract people to the coarse to help boost IT is not dropping its standards. The coarse has a 50% drop out rate in first year at the moment

madramor

Graham Day wrote:

Are you taiking the piss. Despite dropping its standards? Dropping its points in order to attract people to the coarse to help boost IT is not dropping its standards. The coarse has a 50% drop out rate in first year at the moment

1:
if you drop your points you get a lower standard of applicant, so you have
to drop the complexity of the course.

2:
when i did CA in the 90s there where students who picked CA over medicine,
because back then computers was a better way to make money than medicine.

3:
like i said before they are letting people who fail exams stay in the course,
you can't get much lower standards than that.

4:
serveral lecturers in ca where in my year and they all say that the course
is now of a lower standard.

5:
when you increase the number of people on a course the standard drops,
anybody can understand how this is true.

6:
if you dropped the points even further and accordingly dropped the standard
of the course the dropout rate would still increase.

rsynnott

madramor wrote:

1:

2:
when i did CA in the 90s there where students who picked CA over medicine,
because back then computers was a better way to make money than medicine.

Whenever anyone chooses a CS course on the basis of the amount of money they can make, there is an inept programmer in 4 years time, sadly.

madramor

rsynnott wrote:

Whenever anyone chooses a CS course on the basis of the amount of money they can make, there is an inept programmer in 4 years time, sadly.

people who are in it for the money are more determined and focused

the people who say you have to love programming to get into it
are usually the ones who make **** money

business is business, watch google a company who everybody thinks is
a nice company only in it for the love of the game turn into the biggest
beast of them all.

Paul_D

madramor wrote:

1:
if you drop your points you get a lower standard of applicant, so you have
to drop the complexity of the course.

2:
3:
4:
5:
6:

i'm very sad to read this, is any place where standarts haven't dropped?

rsynnott wrote:

Whenever anyone chooses a CS course on the basis of the amount of money they can make, there is an inept programmer in 4 years time, sadly.

ye, programming is not about making money, it's a fun that you get when your programm is finished. (not during debuging:))

scojones

madramor wrote:

1:
if you drop your points you get a lower standard of applicant, so you have
to drop the complexity of the course.

Ok, I disagree with you. Colleges drop the CAO points if they feel that not enough people are applying for the course. They do not drop the complexity of the course AT ALL. That is a misconception on your part. There is a big problem with the CAO points system and it is this:

College A has a superb course, one of the best in Ireland with a great practical side and a hands-on approach. But the numbers of people applying for it's CS course are dropping due to the economy and the fact that people are kind of starting to realise that you have to have a love for computers to do well, you can't be in it for the money. So this college lowers it's CAO points in an attempt to get more people in. The problem here is that secondary schools are basing the course's standard on the CAO points. So if Johnny gets 500 points, he's not going to want to take a course that is 190 points, because Johnny did alot of work to get those points. So, the schools know this, they don't want you going for a course with low points because you won't put in alot of effort for your leaving cert, because you don't have to. It's sad, but it's true.

madramor

sjones wrote:

Ok, I disagree with you. Colleges drop the CAO points if they feel that not enough people are applying for the course. They do not drop the complexity of the course AT ALL. That is a misconception on your part. There is a big problem with the CAO points system and it is this:

points 3: and 4: are facts not misconceptions

its students that set the course points not colleges, dcu set a minimum
points thats all they can do

Calina

madramor wrote:

points 3: and 4: are facts not misconceptions

its students that set the course points not colleges, dcu set a minimum
points thats all they can do

If I recall correctly, there was holy war the year DCU set a minimum points req for CA.

rsynnott

madramor wrote:

people who are in it for the money are more determined and focused

the people who say you have to love programming to get into it
are usually the ones who make **** money

business is business, watch google a company who everybody thinks is
a nice company only in it for the love of the game turn into the biggest
beast of them all.

I'm afraid I disagree with you completely. A few of those doing high-earning nightmare jobs (I'm thinking DBAs in particular) might be as well off driven by money as by interest, but realistically an interest in computer science isn't something you can just acquire because you feel like making a few bob, and without serious aptitude and interest, you're not going to be much good. You'll still be good enough to get by, no doubt, but I think you'll find most serious programmers doing interesting things are interested.

Some of the best programmers I've encountered are not in the IT industry and do not intend to go there; they're mathematicians.

Just my opinion.

Paul_D wrote:

i'm very sad to read this, is any place where standarts haven't dropped?

I wouldn't say standards have dropped dramatically in most places, really. Dropout rates have soared, but by the sound of it that shouldn't be a problem for you.

1234567890

I havent read all the replys to this post so someone in my course could have already wrote this.

im in my second year of computer science in DIT. Its a good course that i do enjoy but can be a bit heavy a times. what i particularly like about it is that in third year there's the option of working for six months of the year for one of the many computer companies the college has connections with. the thing here is that if you put in your bit, there is a high chance that before you have even finished you degree(providing you do finish it though) the company will already have offered you a job...

but thats just me. If you really want to know about the course work visit this link.

http://www.namit.org/pages/phpBB2/

One of the lads in my year set it up. If you've any questions regarding the course work, what its like, where you can go from there, etc, etc the lads will definatley be able to help!
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