[Sept. 10] NTSA AGM

Sparks

Not given the track record for the past few years I'm afraid tireur. I can recall specific instances; a shooter complains that shooting a registered shoot in a particular range is not really on because the range is extremely exposed and the wind is overly onerous on the shooters and the facilities are little more than a flat place to lie down. He's not criticising the range itself; he makes the point that the range is just being set up; but that until it's ready, it's not fair on the shooters to have their national squad membership dependant on shooting good scores there.
The head of that range sat on the NTSA committee. From that moment on, that shooter did not receive invitations to national open shoots, national squad training sessions, or anything of that nature. He was badmouthed by the head of the range (I was a witness to this on multiple occasions), and was generally ostracised by the NGB.
This wasn't unique, I'm afraid. And given a past history like that, I wouldn't blame people for feeling persecuted.

However, once again, I must make the point that the committee stated at the start that one person would speak for the motion and one against; and that was what happened (on the pro-motion side, at any rate).

If we'd all demanded to stand up and give our piece, would you now be accusing these people of having no respect for the procedures of the AGM or the committee running it?

tireur

Sparks wrote:

You're wrong here tireur. This is the "let's all stand together" argument, I've heard it a thousand times before. Thing is, I keep noticing that the current situation is not all shooters standing together - it's certain shooters being forced to bow the knee before other shooters. If the NTSA is to stand with other shooters, it must first be able to stand!

.

I would like to return to your main themes Sparks. Firstly your view that you would like the NTSA to be "equal" to the other shooting organisations and stand together WITH them. Tell us a little bit about the "OLympic Coaches Association" Please correct the title if I got it wrong. Tell us about their aims in the area of shooting unity. Tell us about who they met,e.g. Minister for Justice, officials from the DOJ, IOC, ISC etc. Secondly on your openess theme, please publish the minutes of these discussions so that all shooters can understand what you are doing on their behalf.

tireur

Sparks wrote:

However, once again, I must make the point that the committee stated at the start that one person would speak for the motion and one against; and that was what happened (on the pro-motion side, at any rate).

If we'd all demanded to stand up and give our piece, would you now be accusing these people of having no respect for the procedures of the AGM or the committee running it?

This is a very weak argument Sparks. We both know that if anyone else had wanted to speak, they would have been let. It is a pity that you do not take this view of committee requests in many other areas.

foresight

Hi Tireur,

Your questions to Sparks here are irrelevant the 'Olympic Coaches Association' has nothing to do with the NTSA

tireur

foresight wrote:

Hi Tireur,

Your questions to Sparks here are irrelevant the 'Olympic Coaches Association' has nothing to do with the NTSA

Thankyou for the input foresight . I do believe that there is a connection, hence the question which I hope Sparks will answer. However, if you know something about this group you might like to share it with us.

Sparks

I would like to return to your main themes Sparks.

You sure you wouldn't prefer to answer the question tireur?

Firstly your view that you would like the NTSA to be "equal" to the
other shooting organisations and stand together WITH them.

Yes, as opposed to being an adjunct of the NRPAI and unable to make
independent representations to places they should be able to make
representations to, like the Sports Council, the Dept. of Sport and the
Dept. of Justice.

Tell us a little bit about the "OLympic Coaches Association"
Please correct the title if I got it wrong.

What has that got to do with the NTSA?

Tell us about their aims in the area of shooting unity. Tell us about who they met,e.g. Minister for Justice, officials from the DOJ, IOC, ISC etc. Secondly on your openess theme, please publish the minutes of these discussions so that all shooters can understand what you are doing on their behalf.

Still got nothing to do with the NTSA there tireur. I thought you were all about sticking to the topic?

I'll return to our theme of the NTSA standing equal with the other shooting bodies tireur, since you've expressed an interest in it (though I'd point out that you'd dodging questions with an uncommonly high level of adroitness).
Perhaps, if I give an example of what I mean?

There is a well-known account, told to me by one of the NRPAI reps, who was directly involved, prior to the 2001 AGM, of how an offer was put on the table by the DoJ to return pistols back in the mid-90s. However, it was rejected by the NRPAI as fullbores wouldn't have been returned at the same time.

Accounts like this would indicate that "all shooters standing together" meant that the Irish Pony Club, the NTSA, the Silhouette Association and the plinkers who just shoot cans off walls, were *all* lined up to take one for the team... when in fact, the only group that stood to benefit would have been the fullbore association, which at the time did not exist. Odd, also, that the NRPAI reps in the room who refused the offer were fullbore shooters themselves. I guess when someone says "let's all unite!" it pays to look at who the speaker is...

tireur

Sparks wrote:

What has that got to do with the NTSA?



Still got nothing to do with the NTSA there tireur. I thought you were all about sticking to the topic?

But we are sticking to the topic Sparks. We are on the topic of Shooter unity and in this context the Olympic Coaches Association may have something to contribute. Do I detect an unusually high propensity to say nothing from you and from Foresight? I have never seen you keen to shut down a topic before. Why so?

tireur

tireur wrote:

I would like to return to your main themes Sparks. Firstly your view that you would like the NTSA to be "equal" to the other shooting organisations and stand together WITH them. Tell us a little bit about the "OLympic Coaches Association" Please correct the title if I got it wrong. Tell us about their aims in the area of shooting unity. Tell us about who they met,e.g. Minister for Justice, officials from the DOJ, IOC, ISC etc. Secondly on your openess theme, please publish the minutes of these discussions so that all shooters can understand what you are doing on their behalf.

And when you have deliberated on my previous question, perhaps you might like to answer the one before that which I repeat above to save you the trouble of paging up.

tireur

Sparks wrote:

There is a well-known account, told to me by one of the NRPAI reps, who was directly involved, prior to the 2001 AGM, of how an offer was put on the table by the DoJ to return pistols back in the mid-90s. However, it was rejected by the NRPAI as fullbores wouldn't have been returned at the same time.

Accounts like this would indicate that "all shooters standing together" meant that the Irish Pony Club, the NTSA, the Silhouette Association and the plinkers who just shoot cans off walls, were *all* lined up to take one for the team... when in fact, the only group that stood to benefit would have been the fullbore association, which at the time did not exist. Odd, also, that the NRPAI reps in the room who refused the offer were fullbore shooters themselves. I guess when someone says "let's all unite!" it pays to look at who the speaker is...

I was not at this meeting and by your own admission, neither were you. Perhaps you might get the person who was, to say so directly. People have a habit of picking up vague stories of things that may or not have happened and repeating as gospel, the ones that suit their view of the world,There is an immensely rich history of folk lore in our cultural heritage. Do we need to let it intrude into the realm of facts?

tireur

Sparks wrote:

I'll return to our theme of the NTSA standing equal with the other shooting bodies tireur, since you've expressed an interest in it (though I'd point out that you'd dodging questions with an uncommonly high level of adroitness).
.

We are all capable of learning Sparks. In this case I thank you for the compliment and have to admit that I learned it from you.

stevenw

foresight wrote:

I wish to compliment Sparks on putting the motions onto the agenda and bringing into the open for debate a number of topics which were and have been for too long left festering in the background and in the shadows of formerly smoky bars.

I wish to thank Sparks too for getting so many new people and some not so new to attend at the AGM. For in the case of many organisations this is the meeting to miss - boring speeches and god forbid you might get a job!

I wish also to congratulate Sparks for almost single handedly (if that is a word) nearly doubling the membership of the NTSA and if that figure is incorrect then he can be congratulated for getting all the membership fees paid on time.

Hear, Hear!

rrpc

stevenw wrote:

Hear, Hear!

I actually spent about five minutes trying to find the post you quoted above StevenW. Page 3!!!! The debate's moved on a tad since lad. With a bit of luck and providing nobody posts on this thread for a week or so, you'll have caught up with the rest of us

Sparks

tireur wrote:

But we are sticking to the topic Sparks. We are on the topic of Shooter unity and in this context the Olympic Coaches Association may have something to contribute. Do I detect an unusually high propensity to say nothing from you and from Foresight? I have never seen you keen to shut down a topic before. Why so?

tireur wrote:

And when you have deliberated on my previous question, perhaps you might like to answer the one before that which I repeat above to save you the trouble of paging up.

Asked and answered in it's own thread tireur; and the topic is not shut down, and was not, I was!

tireur wrote:

I was not at this meeting and by your own admission, neither were you. Perhaps you might get the person who was, to say so directly. People have a habit of picking up vague stories of things that may or not have happened and repeating as gospel, the ones that suit their view of the world,There is an immensely rich history of folk lore in our cultural heritage. Do we need to let it intrude into the realm of facts?

The odds of getting the people who were there to say so openly are rather low tireur, since what they did (by choosing the less politically savvy route of demanding "all or nothing" instead of taking anything they could get and camelnosing the rest) undermined the interests of the majority of target shooters in the country. The practical pistol folks and the fullbore folks wouldn't have gained immediately, it is true; but Silhouette, plinking, Pony Club and Olympic shooting (that's three of the four constituent NRPAI bodies right there, plus a host of other individuals) would have immediately gained, and the interests of the others would not have been lost in the long term nor adversely affected in the short term as they'd be no worse off than they were before.

But when I'm told, by one of the men in the room, the account of what happened, I'm actually naive enough to believe him, instead of calling a well-respected and long-standing member of the shooting community a liar to his face. If we'd brought the topic up at the AGM, you could have asked him yourself; he was sitting in the room with us; but then, when even written minutes are denied by those who signed their name to them earlier, you might not have gotten an accurate answer then either. Perhaps if you asked the DoJ or the NRPAI for the minutes of the meeting?

Now, can we get back to the questions you've not answered yet please? Because I feel you have more to contribute than most ordinary shooters for some reason. To recap;

Originally Posted by tireur
I just think it was odd that the people from the clubs whose block votes you wielded did not feel able to speak in support of you. Was it that they were nervous about being associated with such a motion and needed a fall guy?

I think tireur, that the interesting point there is not the answer to your question; but that the question itself is valid.
Why would someone with a dissenting opinion need to take such machevellian measures in an association (which exists to serve their needs) that was working correctly?

And secondly;

if it should be "all shooters together", then why is it that we have the IPSA and the NRAI as seperate NGBs and why is there animosity between the NRPAI and the IPSA? Why aren't the NARGC and NRPAI and IPCSA all meeting to decide how to merge to one single body? And where was the independent (you can't ask the committee members to do this job!) NRPAI representative at the NTSA AGM?

tireur

Sparks wrote:

Now, can we get back to the questions you've not answered yet please? Because I feel you have more to contribute than most ordinary shooters for some reason. To recap;
I think tireur, that the interesting point there is not the answer to your question; but that the question itself is valid.
Why would someone with a dissenting opinion need to take such machevellian measures in an association (which exists to serve their needs) that was working correctly?

And secondly;
if it should be "all shooters together", then why is it that we have the IPSA and the NRAI as seperate NGBs and why is there animosity between the NRPAI and the IPSA? Why aren't the NARGC and NRPAI and IPCSA all meeting to decide how to merge to one single body? And where was the independent (you can't ask the committee members to do this job!) NRPAI representative at the NTSA AGM?

Ah, Sparks, I am glad you are back as I was hoping we could jointly break the record for the longest and most boring thread . Perhaps now we can! Your answer raises another question. If it does not exist, why did you and Foresight not just say so to begin with instead of saying that the OCA topic had nothing to do with the NTSA AGM topic? But now that we have that thread running, I will transfer my debate over there.

I think I answered your first question earlier, to recap , the answer is Shame, brought on by the remnants of a conscience


As regards your other question, I think you need to go to the MRC threads to get the answers to these questions. The debate there is whether the NRAI can be a NGB and I have no idea of what debates occurred between the IPSA and the NRPAI. But I am surprised at you for using these two examples. If you bracket the NTSA in this company regarding justification of attempted UDI then your arguments are very weak.

Sparks

tireur wrote:

Ah, Sparks, I am glad you are back as I was hoping we could jointly break the record for the longest and most boring thread .

Need another fourteen posts after this one for the title of longest thread Tireur, but "most boring" kinda ignores that it's been looked at over a thousand times since it started.

I think I answered your first question earlier, to recap , the answer is Shame, brought on by the remnants of a conscience

Horse hockey. And for once I won't even bother to point out why you're wrong; there are so many people out there with personal, first-hand knowlege that you are wrong that it's not even funny anymore.

As regards your other question, I think you need to go to the MRC threads to get the answers to these questions.

Indeed, and the question, suitably modified from there becomes;
Why, if we're all shooters together, did the NRPAI slap down MRC four years ago when MRC came to them in good faith to try to set up an NGB within the structures of the NRPAI in the name of keeping everything unified in one organisation? What goal was served by the NRPAI pushing them away when any idiot could see that if there was a need for a fullbore NGB, then those who were most interested would be the ones that would set it up. Forget the question of "Why wasn't that energy harnessed"?, and ask "Why didn't the NRPAI, that bastion of Unity and Shooter's Interests, welcome to the fold the fullbore shooters"?

The debate there is whether the NRAI can be a NGB

If reports of it's affiliation to the ICFRA are accurate, then the debate is over and it is. The question for the NRPAI is, what the hell were they doing not trying to keep them within the shooting community as it then existed?

But I am surprised at you for using these two examples. If you bracket the NTSA in this company regarding justification of attempted UDI then your arguments are very weak.

UDI?
I fear you'll have to enlighten us, tireur.
And I note that you're using a rather obfuscated counter-arguement here, which, once laid out, doesn't actually hold water. The NRPAI has proven, time and again, that it will not act in the best interests of shooters; that it will not act for unity in the shooting world; and that it cannot be trusted to follow even its own rules. Why the NTSA should remain in it, eludes me. Why the NTSA committee believe that their fiduciary and common-law duties as directors of the company that is the NTSA can be fulfilled while a part of the NRPAI, eludes me with even more skill. How anyone can think that it's a good idea to have the umbrella body for the sport operate as a private club, and why you believe that you can state that leaving the NRPAI is a bad idea, without any proof or example, and only use logical fallacy and poorly constructed obfuscation to support that statement, doesn't even get over the horizon.

tireur

Sparks wrote:

Indeed, and the question, suitably modified from there becomes;
Why, if we're all shooters together, did the NRPAI slap down MRC four years ago when MRC came to them in good faith to try to set up an NGB within the structures of the NRPAI in the name of keeping everything unified in one organisation? What goal was served by the NRPAI pushing them away when any idiot could see that if there was a need for a fullbore NGB, then those who were most interested would be the ones that would set it up. Forget the question of "Why wasn't that energy harnessed"?, and ask "Why didn't the NRPAI, that bastion of Unity and Shooter's Interests, welcome to the fold the fullbore shooters"?




UDI?
I fear you'll have to enlighten us, tireur.
And I note that you're using a rather obfuscated counter-arguement here, which, once laid out, doesn't actually hold water. The NRPAI has proven, time and again, that it will not act in the best interests of shooters; that it will not act for unity in the shooting world; and that it cannot be trusted to follow even its own rules. Why the NTSA should remain in it, eludes me. Why the NTSA committee believe that their fiduciary and common-law duties as directors of the company that is the NTSA can be fulfilled while a part of the NRPAI, eludes me with even more skill. How anyone can think that it's a good idea to have the umbrella body for the sport operate as a private club, and why you believe that you can state that leaving the NRPAI is a bad idea, without any proof or example, and only use logical fallacy and poorly constructed obfuscation to support that statement, doesn't even get over the horizon.

There you go again Sparks. You keep referring to meetings in the past , which neither of us was at, and stating that certain things resulted from these meetings. This is a regular technique of yours. . You think that if you make a statement about such a meeting stridently enough, then, unless some one who was there , happens to read the post and feels inclined to correct you, such statements will stand unchallenged and thereby become "the truth" . What I do know is that the NRPAI and in particular, the then PRO( a person who you often criticize) gave a lot of time and effort in helping the MRC get set up. I have no knowledge of anything that happened since, in the context we are debating and I suspect neither have you.
Now to examine your second statement. I see that you are no stranger to the sweeping generalisation either, in addition to your penchant for presenting rumours and half truths as facts. I urge all the people reading this thread to go back over what you said and see this diatribe for what it is, namely a biased, figment of your imagination arrived at from a basis of the "factual events" you frequently refer to and built upon using the strange logic you so often exhibit on these boards.

Sparks

tireur wrote:

There you go again Sparks. You keep referring to meetings in the past , which neither of us was at, and stating that certain things resulted from these meetings. This is a regular technique of yours.

I'd actually take that as a valid criticism was it not for two things;
1) I was present at the NRPAI AGM in question;
2) You've just started another thread asking about a non-existant organistion based on some rumour you've heard and won't divulge here, purely to try to discredit me and others whom you can't even identify past a name on a computer screen; you've also accused pretty much the entire National Squad from the past decade, National Champions and International shooters all, of shameful acts, to avoid looking at the reality of a very dodgy situation, which again, I have first-hand experience of; and you've prevaricated and waffled about every point you've tried to make and answered none of the core questions so far. This is one of the longest threads on the forum since it's inception Tireur; please don't think you've not been given leeway to make your point or that in some way you've been handicapped from doing so. But it really is time, dear tireur, to either fish or cut bait.

Now to examine your second statement. I see that you are no stranger to the sweeping generalisation either, in addition to your penchant for presenting rumours and half truths as facts.

See reason 2 above...

I urge all the people reading this thread to go back over what you said and see this diatribe for what it is, namely a biased, figment of your imagination arrived at from a basis of the "factual events" you frequently refer to and built upon using the strange logic you so often exhibit on these boards.

As opposed to a codification my own observations from over the past eleven years in shooting, (including seven years running clubs, six years competitive shooting, two stints on the NTSA committee, a world cup, a few smaller internationals, four years training with the National Squad) and those which were related to me over those eleven years by other shooters, national squad shooters, coaches, international coaches, NGB officials from other countries, people within the ISC, people within the NRPAI, people within the ICPSA, people within the Pony Club, people within the NSAI, people within the NASRC, every NTSA committee member from the past four years, and people within pretty much every NTSA club from one end of the country to the other.

I can't speak as to what others think tireur, but I think you're full of it myself, and after a fairly long time during which you could have proven me wrong, not only have you not done so, you still haven't answered the questions.

tireur

I think you are losing the run of yourself Sparks, Do I detect a little heat entering into your posts? Let me summarise what you have said above
1) I was present at the NRPAI AGM in question;--quote SPARKS
Translation-- I was a a meeting and I presented my conclusions from that meeting. Of course my observations were not coloured by my clear dislike of the NRPAI and some of it's officers.
You've just started another thread asking about a non-existant organistion based on some rumour you've heard and won't divulge here, purely to try to discredit me and others whom you can't even identify past a name on a computer screen; .---quote SPARKS
Interesting revelation here Sparks. Why do you say that the raising of the OCA was an attempt to discredit you?. Would being associated with the OCA(if it exists) in the context of shooting be something you may have a conscience about?Unlike you, I made no statements about things I could not support with facts..I did ask questions to see if their was any substance to what I have heard but you seem to have read something into this

you've also accused pretty much the entire National Squad from the past decade, National Champions and International shooters all, of shameful acts, to avoid looking at the reality of a very dodgy situation, which again, I have first-hand experience of; --QUOTE SPARKS

Really? Where did I do this?

As opposed to a codification my own observations from over the past eleven years in shooting, (including seven years running clubs, six years competitive shooting, two stints on the NTSA committee, a world cup, a few smaller internationals, four years training with the National Squad) and those which were related to me over those eleven years by other shooters, national squad shooters, coaches, international coaches, NGB officials from other countries, people within the ISC, people within the NRPAI, people within the ICPSA, people within the Pony Club, people within the NSAI, people within the NASRC, every NTSA committee member from the past four years, and people within pretty much every NTSA club from one end of the country to the other.---quote SPARKS
Nice track record and I have no doubt that you have made a major contribution to the practical aspects of shooting in Ireland. But so have all of the people with whom you disagree and who you criticize so vigourously on this board. If your statements on the politics of shooting had been made with less obvious bias and attempt to cause division and uncertainty then I would not have felt inclined to post. But this is where we came in, the AGM and your statement following it. Your casting of yourself in the role of the saviour who failed to save, the prophet whose followers did not follow, the politician who did not rig enough votes, 68 to 38, give or take a few. I have no doubt that the issue will not go away and you will continue to forment strife. All of us who have "crossed the line" in your words, from which there is no way back, will continue to shoot, continue to attempt to minimise the disorder which rampant personality's bring to any group of more than two people. So, to quote LB6 again, I am bored playing in this cot with you. I would have like to do the other 14 posts to break the record but that would be vain. Bye for now.

Sparks

tireur wrote:

1) I was present at the NRPAI AGM in question;--quote SPARKS
Translation-- I was a a meeting and I presented my conclusions from that meeting. Of course my observations were not coloured by my clear dislike of the NRPAI and some of it's officers.

Given that that I'd only just started to learn about the NRPAI at that time, and that I wrote it up rather positively for the NTSA newsletter afterwards, I'd say you're obviously in error. But it's nice to know that I'm damned if I was at the meeting and damned if I wasn't...

Interesting revelation here Sparks. Why do you say that the raising of the OCA was an attempt to discredit you?

Because you mentioned me by name and implied that I was running some sort of covert anti-shooting organisation.

Unlike you, I made no statements about things I could not support with facts.

Bullcrap. Like I said, this isn't a verbal debate where you can fib about what you've said and hope noone's recording what you say; your words are there, in black and white, for all to see.

Really? Where did I do this?

When you said that people who wouldn't stand up and ask questions were doing so from shame.

But so have all of the people with whom you disagree and who you criticize so vigourously on this board.

Is this to mean that it's not allowed to disagree and/or criticise those who have contributed to the sport? For if so, you've just (by your own admission) being doing that for the last few pages...

If your statements on the politics of shooting had been made with less obvious bias and attempt to cause division and uncertainty then I would not have felt inclined to post.

However, it's the division that is required for the good of the sport. Something that has been recognised by just about every other group out there that knows the administration setup at present and is serious about winning medals in international competitions. And something which those in that room had previously stated repeatedly over a period of several years.

So, to quote LB6 again, I am bored playing in this cot with you. I would have like to do the other 14 posts to break the record but that would be vain. Bye for now.

Well tireur, thank you for the vigorous debate. I would have preferred answers, but debate is better than censorship and an enforced silence, I suppose.

rrpc

Lads, you're all getting more than a little heated about past events. I would have thought that the purpose of this thread was to look at the future, taking the NTSA AGM as the starting point.

One of the problems of looking at past events, even when you have firsthand knowledge of a part of those events. Is that you may not have firsthand knowledge of all factors and circumstances leading up to the event.

There is an old science joke about a drunk who is searching for his car keys under a streetlight. A cop happens along, and after appraising the situation, asks the drunk where he had last seen the keys. The drunk points toward a dark alley. "Then why aren't you looking over there?" asks the exasperated cop. The drunk looks up and replies, "Because the light is better over here"

Don't take this too literally, Im not saying that the answer to every question is down a dark alley hidden from the light, just that the bit we see may not be the full story.

If you've ever played chinese whispers, you'll know what I mean. Some of the greatest diplomatic achievements of our time have had their roots in quiet negotiations out of the light of day. The NI peace process being a case in point. If those early meetings had been out in the open, the entire process would never have started.

Sparks

The future doesn't look particularly sunny from here, though rrpc. I know more people who don't want anything to do with the NTSA following the last few years operation, than those who do. And we're still hamstrung badly by being tied into the NRPAI. We've squandered more than one excellent opportunity, and I've seen nothing so far that says that things are going to change, and several things (the closing down of comments on the website, the effective shutting down of the general discussion email list, and so on and so forth) that say that things aren't going to change. And I fail completely to see what good not talking about it is going to do, nor how exactly people propose to stop people talking about it in pubs and on ranges and on the phone and by email and so on. Like I said, the idea of shooters not talking about how things are run is ignoring the fact that they've been doing it since long before I was born and they'll be doing it long after I'm dust; the best you can do is actually listen to what's said and try to strain out the nuggets of good ideas from the chaff.

rrpc

Well, I would never have described myself as an optimist, but compared to you I must be Mr. Micauber As for the shutting down of the comments section of the NTSA website, some of the comments that were posted there I personally thought were infantile and had no place on the website of an NGB. Unfortunately, it seems that a small minority have had the effect of ruining it for the rest of us.

But to move on to topics more constructive I have some insight into why the Nationals were held on the one day at the beginning of the season. I don't have the minute details, but here's what I know. The one day idea, came about because it was originally envisaged to hold the whole thing in Rathdrum's new range, which would have been capable of holding all the nationals together. The target rifle coordinator (henceforth to be referred to as the TRC) asked me when the range would be ready, and I in my innocence replied that It should be ready around September (silly me).

The rest is history. We had to go to planning again, and the TRC held off making a decision until that issue was resolved. There was still a good possibility of the range being finished in time, but other unrelated problems held up the process. In the meantime of course the calendar had been prepared with dates in September set aside, but in the end the TRC (in the absence of anything concrete - pun intended), had to make alternative arrangements.

I have no knowledge of what those arrangements entailed, or what other external or internal factors prevailed or even when they were eventually made, but I would imagine that with an already tight calendar, there would not have been much choice of dates left when the eventual venues were decided on.

So although the "lets keep the collegiate shooters out of it" idea may have gained a certain currency, my information does not hold up this view.

Sparks

The one day idea, came about because it was originally envisaged to hold the whole thing in Rathdrum's new range

Sorry rrpc, but I was sitting there on the NTSA committee when the idea was brought to the table and again when the decision was made, and Rathdrum was not mentioned. Comber and East Antrim were the original ranges mentioned. Rathdrum wasn't mentioned, in fact, until a month later when EARC was stated to be the intended range and I pointed out that it was likely that RRPC would be operational in time and thus we had to have some sort of decision on location.

But the collegiate shooter's problems with the dates were made from the first moment that the idea hit the table, as well as the objections over the shooters having to mangle their training plans instead of training for a National Championships in a particular discipline, and over the fact that shooting three (or four as it turned out) matches over three days was not going to give the best results unless shooters deliberately entered only one event for score (the results, if you compare them to last year, by the way, bear that out - except in the first event, 3P, where everyone was fresh, *all* the scores are down on last year, with those who shot all three disciplines having performances in the finals of the last event being *well* below par.).

The idea stemmed from the TRC having seen the Athens World Cup with all events being held all in the one place and time. And he was right to be impressed - World Cups are impressive to watch. Thing is, they're like swans - all smooth and slick to the casual observer; but under the surface everyone's paddling like blazes to keep it going. There's a whole professional staff employed by ISSF that does nothing all year round but go from spot to spot running World Cups for ISSF, and the ranges are the best in the world for ISSF shooting, and they've got the entire worldwide ISSF community sending shooters so that they'll never have a problem even if everyone says "I'll just shoot the one discipline", and anyway they have much longer schedules than just one weekend so they can spread out the matches to allow for recuperation between them.

Again, all these points were made, and brushed aside by those who should have known better and also by those who couldn't have known better (because of lack of experience) but who weren't willing to accept the word of those who had that experience. And the only official comment from the community on the idea was a formal written protest from DURC; and that was brushed aside as well.

The idea of running the event as a test event and not risking the scores in the Nationals was also mangled; the original idea was to run a Test Event where we'd use this new format, then review it and consider running the Nationals that way for 2006; instead, the Test Event was purloined and used as a dress rehearsal for the Nationals.

The whole idea wasn't a bad one; but it was very ill-suited to the Nationals, and hasn't worked well from the point of view of performance (all the scores are down), or participation (smallbore's up, but air is well down and the date is about the worst possible for colleges, with only postgraduates and those working near the college being able to go).

I have no knowledge of what those arrangements entailed, or what other external or internal factors prevailed or even when they were eventually made, but I would imagine that with an already tight calendar, there would not have been much choice of dates left when the eventual venues were decided on.

Actually, the general date (as in "late summer") was set in the first meeting, in the first few minutes. It was decided that the 50m Nationals should be at the end of the 50m season (sensible idea) and that the Air Nationals should be at the end of the Air season (sensible idea), and that the air season should be stretched out so that the air and 50m seasons ended at the same time (huh? what? why stretch air rifle? why not stretch 50m? who decided that one discipline gets priority over the others? and why was all this done over the explicit objections from the air rifle coordinator?) This led to a daft-looking calendar where there's more of a gap between the last competition before the air nationals in the air calendar than there is between the nationals and the first competition of the next season (what happens to off-season training and position and rifle changes and so on?).

That was over a year ago, and there was sufficient time and flexibility to move dates around (this was at the same time the the calendar was reorganised on the idea that it should reflect the personal calendars of international shooters, something else that was objected to because each international shooter has a different personal calendar, since they all have different jobs, committments, goals and so forth; and the idea should be that the calendar have many events and the international shooters choose from those events what ones to go to as part of their training plan - the more events, the more flexibility for those training plans, the better the chances at a medal, and the more people shooting as well).

rrpc

Are we near the record yet?

Ok, I'll take all that as gospel (until proven otherwise of course), but my main point is still valid. There were reasons that the Nationals were held on the same day, and in the view of the TRC, good ones. I still don't believe it's a bad idea, having taken part in Bisley for many years and shooting some fairly exhausting timetables, I have always noted my scores went up, during and after that marathon event. You've been there too, and there's nothing quite like it.

Nothing would warm the cockles of my heart more than to see a weekend of intensive competitive shooting in Rathdrum. If World Cups are held that way, good, bad or indifferent, one would have to say that we should be training shooters to compete under those conditions if ultimately that's what they're going to face.

In any event, the Nationals used to be held in July, which I would invariably miss due to holidays, and although I missed this year, I had a far better chance of making it than in previous years.

Now it's my turn for a stand on the soapbox..... If collegiate shooters are so keen to attend shoots, why has the average turnout by said shooters to the four shoots so far in Rathdrum this year, been less than two? As it ws the previous year also.

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

Are we near the record yet?

Just went through it with that post

There were reasons that the Nationals were held on the same day, and in the view of the TRC, good ones.

In the view of the Air Rifle Coordinator and others, though, not so good.

I still don't believe it's a bad idea, having taken part in Bisley for many years and shooting some fairly exhausting timetables, I have always noted my scores went up, during and after that marathon event. You've been there too, and there's nothing quite like it.

Indeed, and if you're into endurance shooting, woo-hoo and so on. And if they'd run a Festival event, I'd have been there and shot it and not minded my scores falling off because my back was killing me on sunday afternoon from having shot several matches beforehand (remember, even the shooter who was lauded on the Sunday by the Chairman as having shot so well in all the matches was complaining on the final day of the test event that he was unable to shoot his best because of fatigue).

If World Cups are held that way, good, bad or indifferent, one would have to say that we should be training shooters to compete under those conditions if ultimately that's what they're going to face.

But that's not how World Cups are held; they held over a period of a week or two, on a world-class range, with the athletes staying in hotels and ferried to the competition by the organisers for their matches, and given time to recuperate and so on. It's not a case of getting up at 0600 on Saturday to drive a hundred miles to Tullamore to shoot in the first detail, and then driving the hundred miles back afterwards and shooting again the next day in UCD - and that's just for those of us that couldn't get the Friday off work to shoot the 3P match - those people had 400 miles clocked up by Saturday night. Either you had a chauffeur, or you were overtired. And frankly, the only thing you learn by shooting a registered shoot when overtired is that you shouldn't do it.

In any event, the Nationals used to be held in July, which I would invariably miss due to holidays, and although I missed this year, I had a far better chance of making it than in previous years.

As I said, hold the nationals at the end of the respective seasons. Much better idea than what we did in the past, and a definite improvement. Just don't mangle the 10m season to suit a bad idea.

Now it's my turn for a stand on the soapbox..... If collegiate shooters are so keen to attend shoots, why has the average turnout by said shooters to the four shoots so far in Rathdrum this year, been less than two? As it ws the previous year also.

Because two years ago, because of an external paperwork snafu that scared the bejaysus out of the security staff (a transposed digit and suddenly it looks like the college is supplying arms to a third world nation for their civil war...), followed by problems getting licences renewed when a critical member of staff in the college retired without the club being told about it and at the same time as the superintendent in Pearse Street retired (the two names on the firearms paperwork!), DURC's smallbore shooting was suspended for the guts of a full college year, which nearly ended the smallbore side of the club. Ergo, no smallbore shooting, ergo, no smallbore competitors. It's coming back this year, and a few alumni have volunteered to put shoulders to the wheel to help, so you should start seeing the attendance pick up on the .22 side again this year.

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

In the view of the Air Rifle Coordinator and others, though, not so good.

I'm not going to say that you can't please everyone. But a new format has been tried and that's a good thing. And it would be easier if it was all on the same range, which at the moment is not possible without a lot of travelling.

Indeed, and if you're into endurance shooting, woo-hoo and so on. And if they'd run a Festival event, I'd have been there and shot it and not minded my scores falling off because my back was killing me on sunday afternoon from having shot several matches beforehand (remember, even the shooter who was lauded on the Sunday by the Chairman as having shot so well in all the matches was complaining on the final day of the test event that he was unable to shoot his best because of fatigue).

B%&&£@ks! I hardly think shooting three or four competitions in two days for the few who do is an endurance test. Bisley can be twelve or more in six days. The really serious guys do a lot more than that. If you're knackered after that, then your training isn't up to scratch. When I was shooting my best, I used to double the number of shots fired in training sessions to those in a competition. At least forty at each card at 50m and 100 yards, 20 at 25 yards. So a sixty shot competition was never a problem.

But that's not how World Cups are held; And you said earlier ..having seen the Athens World Cup with all events being held all in the one place and time....

Look, a hundred mile drive is not perfect, but it's not such a marathon either. No matter where a competition is held here, somebody is going to have to drive!. How do you think the Fermoy shooters got to Fassaroe in the past, and vice versa?, or the lads from the North?. But if you don't want to drive, fine. Go down the previous evening and stay in a hotel. Hire a minibus and get someoone not shoting to drive. If you are interested in shooting your best, put the necessary plan in place to ensure that you do. Why does everything have to come down to the organising body to bottle feed people every step of the way?. We're a small country with an even smaller body of shooters and a miniscule number of ranges that we can shoot on.

As I said, hold the nationals at the end of the respective seasons. Much better idea than what we did in the past, and a definite improvement. Just don't mangle the 10m season to suit a bad idea.

But at least give the credit where it's due and shout it loud to the rooftops. If it was me, I'd have a pain in my arse listening to constant whinging about everything, especially when what I'm doing is voluntary. If I was told that 90% of what I had done was good, then I might be a little more receptive to positive suggestions on where to improve.

Because two years ago, because of an external paperwork snafu that scared the bejaysus out of the security staff (a transposed digit and suddenly it looks like the college is supplying arms to a third world nation for their civil war...),

Really?, Are you sure you don't mean four years ago?. Here are the figures: Year - Collegiate/Total Entries
2002 - 21/86, 2003 - 7/72, 2004 - 8/67, 2005 (so far) - 7/54 and of those 7, three are in other clubs.

so you should start seeing the attendance pick up on the .22 side again this year.

With one competition left this year it's a little bit late don't you think? And the National Indoor was in April this year, and unless you're counting yourself as collegiate, there were no entries at all.

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

B%&&£@ks! I hardly think shooting three or four competitions in two days for the few who do is an endurance test. Bisley can be twelve or more in six days.

*cough*lyingdown*cough*

The really serious guys do a lot more than that. If you're knackered after that, then your training isn't up to scratch.

It's not about how long you can shoot for, though; it's about the score you set. And if you're restricting the National Squad membership to those who achieve a set score, and limiting the competitions where you can put in a score for that purpose, then you're pretty much obligated by fairness to not make it even harder to put in high scores. If you can shoot 120 shots prone without tiring, brilliant! But will your last 60 shots be as high a score as your first 60? And perhaps more directly illustrating the point, when you're going to shoot an important match, do you shoot 60 shots before you go to shoot your match?

When I was shooting my best, I used to double the number of shots fired in training sessions to those in a competition. At least forty at each card at 50m and 100 yards, 20 at 25 yards. So a sixty shot competition was never a problem.

You and I both, in prone. But let's look at the full weekend here. Drive 100 miles to MRC. Shoot 3P. That's several hours long, with 120 shots plus final. Drive 100 miles home. Get up the next morning at 6, drive 100 miles to MRC. Shoot Prone. 60 shots, plus finals. Drive 100 miles home. Get up the next morning, drive a short 10-mile run or so to UCD. Shoot 60 shots plus finals. Is that really the best formula for producing the highest scores that our shooters can achieve?

Look, a hundred mile drive is not perfect, but it's not such a marathon either.

Yes, but there's a difference between not having a perfect solution, and excacerbating an imperfect one! Okay, it's a 100-mile trip. So let's run the 50m prone match on one weekend and the 50m 3P on another so that you don't drive 400 miles in one weekend!

Why does everything have to come down to the organising body to bottle feed people every step of the way?

It doesn't; shooters who want to succeed do have to work, and you and I and anyone who's ever trained knows this. But there's a difference between bottlefeeding someone, and being a part of the problem!

But at least give the credit where it's due and shout it loud to the rooftops.

Did so at the time, did so at the nationals in person, did so at the agm, did so on the web. But again, there's a difference here, this time between praising someone for a job well done; and ignoring what did go wrong completely.

Really?, Are you sure you don't mean four years ago?. Here are the figures: Year - Collegiate/Total Entries
2002 - 21/86, 2003 - 7/72, 2004 - 8/67, 2005 (so far) - 7/54 and of those 7, three are in other clubs.

Are those for 50m (which doesn't see many collegiate shooters as UCD has no .22 facility at all and DURC has only a 25yd range) or 25yd (where we see a few more DURC people when the smallbore side of the club is actively running)?

With one competition left this year it's a little bit late don't you think? And the National Indoor was in April this year, and unless you're counting yourself as collegiate, there were no entries at all.

This academic year, rrpc; which starts at the end of this month and runs to next June, in effect.

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

It's not about how long you can shoot for, though; it's about the score you set.

Correctomundo! That’s the point you see. If all I was trying to do was make holes in the card, I’d be lying there with my 12 gauge.

But will your last 60 shots be as high a score as your first 60?

That’s why you do it. The tricky part is making a lot of holes in the same place!

And perhaps more directly illustrating the point, when you're going to shoot an important match, do you shoot 60 shots before you go to shoot your match?

Again no, the object of the exercise being that you feel just as fresh at shot 60 as you did at shot 1.

You and I both, in prone. But let's look at the full weekend here. Drive 100 miles to MRC. Shoot 3P. That's several hours long, with 120 shots plus final.

[DIVERSION] Drive 10 miles to Hotel/Guesthouse, have dinner with glass of wine if you’re celebrating, Sip glass of ______(insert beverage here) with fellow shooters while discussing days events, Get up the next morning at 8, take lift to dining room, eat full Irish breakfast and read paper, drive 10 miles to MRC.[/DIVERSION]

Shoot Prone. 60 shots, plus finals. Drive 100 miles home. Get up the next morning, drive a short 10-mile run or so to UCD. Shoot 60 shots plus finals. Is that really the best formula for producing the highest scores that our shooters can achieve?

Sounds good to me

Yes, but there's a difference between not having a perfect solution, and exacerbating an imperfect one! Okay, it's a 100-mile trip. So let's run the 50m prone match on one weekend and the 50m 3P on another so that you don't drive 400 miles in one weekend!

You don’t, see above. Apply lateral thinking to problem; do not pass go, do not collect bags under your eyes. My (albeit blinkered and Neanderthal) opinion is, that if you can get enough shooters to turn up at a weekend, hold on to them until they’ve shot everything that’s there to shoot at. Let them go at all and they’ll fail to turn up with depressing regularity due to the cat dying, “didn’t I shoot that already”, My lift broke down”, the dog ate my gun”, “Got hangover” etc. etc.

It doesn't; shooters who want to succeed do have to work, and you and I and anyone who's ever trained knows this. But there's a difference between bottle-feeding someone, and being a part of the problem!

No there isn’t!. Constant bottle-feeding leads to constant expectation of bottle-feeding and major tantrums if the bottle doesn’t turn up on time. I’d like to see some independent thought and action amongst some of our shooting brethren, before I start up the minibus.

Are those for 50m (which doesn't see many collegiate shooters as UCD has no .22 facility at all and DURC has only a 25yd range) or 25yd (where we see a few more DURC people when the small-bore side of the club is actively running)?

Those were the figures for Rathdrum. Not qualified to give attendances anywhere else, but they are piss poor in my opinion, I have to admit that I’m carrying quite a bit of emotional baggage on this one which I’ll PM you about later.

This academic year, rrpc; which starts at the end of this month and runs to next June, in effect.

The calendar year which runs from 1st January to the 31st December every year.

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

Again no, the object of the exercise being that you feel just as fresh at shot 60 as you did at shot 1.

That's the ideal; but it's not possible to reach that as a human thanks to physiological and psychological realities. Energy levels fall off; muscles get tired; the mind wanders. You can elongate the curves showing these so that you get more time above a set threshold; but you can't stop them, and you can't deny that the first N shots are going to be done in better physiological shape than the next N shots.

[DIVERSION] Drive 10 miles to Hotel/Guesthouse, have dinner with glass of wine if you’re celebrating, Sip glass of ______(insert beverage here) with fellow shooters while discussing days events, Get up the next morning at 8, take lift to dining room, eat full Irish breakfast and read paper, drive 10 miles to MRC.[/DIVERSION]Sounds good to me

And me. Couldn't afford to do it, and a lot of the shooters couldn't do it (family demands, etc), but it sounds good allright.

My (albeit blinkered and Neanderthal) opinion is, that if you can get enough shooters to turn up at a weekend, hold on to them until they’ve shot everything that’s there to shoot at.

And make sure you keep the cat locked up.
See, if you want to run a festival-type event, that's perfectly valid and I'd go for it, as I said; but not for the National Championships. If you have to resort to tactics that involve people bedding down a hundred miles from home in order to get them to shoot a Nationals, then you need to be asking yourself some rather hard questions regarding how well you're promoting the sport and the Nationals themselves.

No there isn’t!. Constant bottle-feeding leads to constant expectation of bottle-feeding and major tantrums if the bottle doesn’t turn up on time.

And what happens when you start breaking the bottle over the shooters heads, interfering with their training, and generally making life difficult for those that actually are training?

Those were the figures for Rathdrum.

Those look very low, far lower than I'd thought. I know that we had the shutdown from the security staff fright in the 2003-2004 academic year, but I though it was close to christmas in there; and the other problem hit around the end of that academic year and would have been solved early in the next academic year (2004-5). But by this time, a lot of the really active smallbore shooters had graduated and there'd not been a chance to train the new shooters in smallbore. We'll start fixing that in October, we've at least two alumni volunteering to help in smallbore alone in coaching and the like.

The calendar year which runs from 1st January to the 31st December every year.

Yeah, but you work with colllege clubs and juniors, you get to thinking in academic calendar terms as well

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

That's the ideal; but it's not possible to reach that as a human thanks to physiological and psychological realities. Yada yada yada...

We’re talking about reduction, not elimination. There is a curve, and what you’re trying to do is lengthen it, so it doesn’t tail off so quickly.

And me. Couldn't afford to do it, and a lot of the shooters couldn't do it (family demands, etc), but it sounds good all right.

It’s the Nationals as you so aptly pointed out below – once a year, not every weekend. And this is starting to sound like nit-picking. There is more than one way to skin a feline quadruped and that’s just one. ****!, just spilled hot coffee on myself!.. :eek: .....OK back with a fresh one and a change of clothes… And it’s not resorting to tactics; it’s just another way of doing it. And you haven’t even paid lip service to our country cousins who for years have had to travel to Dublin to attend the Nationals. And accommodation is not that expensive, probably cheaper when you take in the cost of petrol these days. :mad:

And what happens when you start breaking the bottle over the shooters heads, interfering with their training, and generally making life difficult for those that actually are training?

Don’t change the subject, we are talking about it being difficult in your opinion to travel around for the Nationals. Not about training schedules. But incidentally, if the Nationals are on one weekend don’t we have more time for training?

Those look very low, far lower than I'd thought.

Well they’re accurate. The spreadsheet they came from is available on the results page of the Rathdrum website. And if you strip out the guys who are no longer in college (some of whom have joined other clubs) it would seem that there has been zero attendance

We'll start fixing that in October, we've at least two alumni volunteering to help in smallbore alone in coaching and the like.

Well I hope so. You keep banging on about the hundreds of college shooters, but it seems to me a case of “We hear the bees but we don’t see the honey” :rolleyes:

Yeah, but you work with colllege clubs and juniors, you get to thinking in academic calendar terms as well

Well it’s probably a case of RTFS, as I did say 2005 not 2004/05