[Sept. 10] NTSA AGM

Sparks · 07-09-2005 6:10pm #1

Since it's not a competition, I've not put it in the This Weekend's Events sticky thread, but it's important enough (for NTSA shooters!) to note:

From targetshootingireland.org:

Location of the AGM
Notice of the 2005 AGM was posted out last week. Further to this the exact location is in the Montrose Hotel, Belfield, Dublin 4.
The Montrose Hotel is situated directly opposite the main entrance to UCD on the Stillorgan Dual Carriage Way (N11)

If for any reason you have not received notification of the AGM please contact the NTSA Secretary Immediately (details below). However if you are a member of WTSC or DURC please contact Leslie Fagan or Iain Nash respectively as some peoples' membership has been processed recently.

NTSA Secretary email: anto_corb_2@o2.ie

It's scheduled for 1400 this Saturday for those who didn't receive notice.

The agenda is, roughly (I'm transcribing it here, excuse any misspellings please):

Minutes of last AGM
Matters Arising
Directors Reports
Accounts
Appointment & renumeration of Auditors
Motions
Election of Directors and Officers
Any Other Business

The Motions on the agenda are as follows:

That the NTSA immediately withdraw from the NRPAI and seek independent recognition from the Irish Sports Council, the Federation of Irish Sports, the Department of Justice and other relevant bodies; but that our withdrawl not be contingent on such recognition.
That the agenda of all NTSA committee meetings be published on the website at least 3 days before committee meetings.
That the minutes of all NTSA committee meetings be published on the website and made available to all NTSA members with the exception of the AntiDoping and Disciplinary committees, whose meetings should not be held concurrently with other meetings.
That the NTSA institute a programme of pistol safety courses for its members.
That the NTSA appoint a dedicated cartridge pistol coordinator for smallbore and fullbore pistol events; and charge him with the oversight of the reestablishment of pistol shooting in the republic.
That the NTSA commit to publishing a monthly newsletter.
That the NTSA change its membership policy from a club based system to an individual system, with the following fees:
Club Affiliation fee: €50 per annum

Individual Membership:
- First year, through an NTSA club: free
- First year, not through an NTSA club: €2 student / €5 adult
- Subsequent years: €2 student / €5 adult
- Individuals may not serve on committee nor vote in the AGM during their first year.

Optional extras:
- Newsletter: €15 per annum or €2 per copy
- Insurance: As per Insurance policy details
That term limits be defined for each committee position as follows;
- Chairman: 2 terms
- Other committee position: 3 terms
- each term to be one olympic cycle.
That the system of registered shoots be abolished and replaced with;
- A list of recognised shoots whose scores can be used for the purposes of maintaining national averages, rankings and classifications; and
- Supported Shoots, one per discipline per NTSA club, where the NTSA pays for all operational costs of the competition from targets to prizes to advertising and the club keeps all entry fees.
That the NTSA institute formal review meetings following all National Championships, International Matches in which the NTSA send Irish shooters to compete, and all Supported Shoots. Minutes of these meetings to be made available to all NTSA members via the website.
That a maximum wind velocity be set for outdoor matches beyond which scores will not be counted for national ranking purposes.
That outdoor and indoor prone rifle shooting averages, rankings and classifications be maintained seperately.
That a subcommittee be appointed with representatives from all NTSA clubs to review the Memorandum and Articles of Association of the NTSA, it's final recommendations to be made available to all NTSA members.
That an internal appeals process be instituted for cases where formal complaints are made to the committee.
That the NTSA appoint an Anti-Doping Officer.
That the NTSA appoint a Children's Officer.
That the NTSA appoint a Ladies' Officer.
That the NTSA appoint a Collegiate Officer.
That the NTSA commit to building a National Shooting Centre and to that end appoint a dedicated Development Officer.
That the NTSA commit to have at least one club-level coach accredited by the NTSA and NCTC in each NTSA club within two years; and that at least one club-level coach be accredited by the NTSA and NCTC in each new NTSA club within two years of the club affiliating to the NTSA.
That the NTSA discipline coordinators convene subcommittees comprising representatives from each club which shoots their discipline; said representatives to be active shooters at at least club level in that discipline.
That the NTSA create a network of club PROs who are in contact with one another and the national PRO.
That the NTSA allocate a realistic budget for Public Relations.
That the NTSA actively pursue corporate sponsorship for the National Squad.
That the NTSA itself apply for a grant under the Capital Grants Scheme to purchase equipment that can be used nationally, such as electronic target scoring machines, equipment control gauges and so on.
That the NTSA schedule seperate 10m Airgun and 50m Rifle National Championships at the end of their respective seasons from next year onwards.
That the NTSA committee, at its first post-AGM meeting, publicly state its goals for the coming year and how they plan to achieve these goals.
That from next year's AGM, nominees for committee posts must be submitted to the committee prior to the AGM notice being sent to NTSA members; that a deadline for this be made publicly known and listed in the offical calendar; and that such candidates be permitted to submit a brief written note (of up to 200 words) regarding why they feel they are the best choice for the post; and that the list of nominees and their submissions be circulated as part of the AGM notice to the NTSA members.

MP · 07-09-2005 10:58pm

Sparks wrote:

Since it's not a competition, I've not put it in the This Weekend's Events sticky thread, but it's important enough (for NTSA shooters!) to note:

From targetshootingireland.org:

It's scheduled for 1400 this Saturday for those who didn't receive notice.

The agenda is, roughly (I'm transcribing it here, excuse any misspellings please):
Minutes of last AGM

Matters Arising

Directors Reports

Accounts

Appointment & renumeration of Auditors

Motions

Election of Directors and Officers

Any Other Business

The Motions on the agenda are as follows:
That the NTSA immediately withdraw from the NRPAI and seek independent recognition from the Irish Sports Council, the Federation of Irish Sports, the Department of Justice and other relevant bodies; but that our withdrawl not be contingent on such recognition.

That the agenda of all NTSA committee meetings be published on the website at least 3 days before committee meetings.

That the minutes of all NTSA committee meetings be published on the website and made available to all NTSA members with the exception of the AntiDoping and Disciplinary committees, whose meetings should not be held concurrently with other meetings.

That the NTSA institute a programme of pistol safety courses for its members.

That the NTSA appoint a dedicated cartridge pistol coordinator for smallbore and fullbore pistol events; and charge him with the oversight of the reestablishment of pistol shooting in the republic.

That the NTSA commit to publishing a monthly newsletter.

That the NTSA change its membership policy from a club based system to an individual system, with the following fees:
Club Affiliation fee: €50 per annum

Individual Membership:
- First year, through an NTSA club: free
- First year, not through an NTSA club: €2 student / €5 adult
- Subsequent years: €2 student / €5 adult
- Individuals may not serve on committee nor vote in the AGM during their first year.

Optional extras:
- Newsletter: €15 per annum or €2 per copy
- Insurance: As per Insurance policy details

That term limits be defined for each committee position as follows;
- Chairman: 2 terms
- Other committee position: 3 terms
- each term to be one olympic cycle.

That the system of registered shoots be abolished and replaced with;
- A list of recognised shoots whose scores can be used for the purposes of maintaining national averages, rankings and classifications; and
- Supported Shoots, one per discipline per NTSA club, where the NTSA pays for all operational costs of the competition from targets to prizes to advertising and the club keeps all entry fees.

That the NTSA institute formal review meetings following all National Championships, International Matches in which the NTSA send Irish shooters to compete, and all Supported Shoots. Minutes of these meetings to be made available to all NTSA members via the website.

That a maximum wind velocity be set for outdoor matches beyond which scores will not be counted for national ranking purposes.

That outdoor and indoor prone rifle shooting averages, rankings and classifications be maintained seperately.

That a subcommittee be appointed with representatives from all NTSA clubs to review the Memorandum and Articles of Association of the NTSA, it's final recommendations to be made available to all NTSA members.

That an internal appeals process be instituted for cases where formal complaints are made to the committee.

That the NTSA appoint an Anti-Doping Officer.

That the NTSA appoint a Children's Officer.

That the NTSA appoint a Ladies' Officer.

That the NTSA appoint a Collegiate Officer.

That the NTSA commit to building a National Shooting Centre and to that end appoint a dedicated Development Officer.

That the NTSA commit to have at least one club-level coach accredited by the NTSA and NCTC in each NTSA club within two years; and that at least one club-level coach be accredited by the NTSA and NCTC in each new NTSA club within two years of the club affiliating to the NTSA.

That the NTSA discipline coordinators convene subcommittees comprising representatives from each club which shoots their discipline; said representatives to be active shooters at at least club level in that discipline.

That the NTSA create a network of club PROs who are in contact with one another and the national PRO.

That the NTSA allocate a realistic budget for Public Relations.

That the NTSA actively pursue corporate sponsorship for the National Squad.

That the NTSA itself apply for a grant under the Capital Grants Scheme to purchase equipment that can be used nationally, such as electronic target scoring machines, equipment control gauges and so on.

That the NTSA schedule seperate 10m Airgun and 50m Rifle National Championships at the end of their respective seasons from next year onwards.

That the NTSA committee, at its first post-AGM meeting, publicly state its goals for the coming year and how they plan to achieve these goals.

That from next year's AGM, nominees for committee posts must be submitted to the committee prior to the AGM notice being sent to NTSA members; that a deadline for this be made publicly known and listed in the offical calendar; and that such candidates be permitted to submit a brief written note (of up to 200 words) regarding why they feel they are the best choice for the post; and that the list of nominees and their submissions be circulated as part of the AGM notice to the NTSA members.

Phew! Seems like NTSA members may need to bring food and sleeping bags or else book a room as it has the makings of a very long AGM :rolleyes:

jaycee · 07-09-2005 11:21pm

Some excellent proposals though..! :cool:

Sparks · 08-09-2005 12:31am

MP wrote:

Phew! Seems like NTSA members may need to bring food and sleeping bags or else book a room as it has the makings of a very long AGM :rolleyes:

Not really - those motions are just the things we've been talking about and thrashing out and brainstorming over in pubs and ranges and meetings and so on for the past decade. There's stuff in there that predates my starting shooting!
This is just a chance for us to actually bring a decision to the table rather than just talk for another year about the vague idea of changing stuff we know could work better.

Sparks · 08-09-2005 12:34am

jaycee wrote:

Some excellent proposals though..! :cool:

I wish I could take the credit the NTSA have afforded me by tagging my name to them, jaycee, but the truth is that only two or three are my own - the rest, like I've said, have been knocking about in discussion for years. I just wrote them down on a letter and sent them into the committee to be put up for a decision.

phantom_lord · 10-09-2005 8:34pm

jaycee wrote:

Some excellent proposals though..! :cool:

Is that why they weren't passed?

Sparks · 11-09-2005 3:05pm

Afraid not PL. Many were passed; but the most important ones were not, and I feel I have to apologise for that.

To the Junior shooters putting their guts into training for international competitions; to the collegiate shooters who put every spare moment into keeping our largest clubs run to a more professional standard than many supposedly more experienced clubs, despite less funding and more restricitions and less support from the NGB than anywhere else; to those senior shooters who genuinely train with an eye to the international scene and who do their best to qualify despite the strong odour of an old-boys network at almost every turn; and to those running clubs who, despite the amount drained from them in the process, are never afraid to actually try to improve things and who as a result earn loyalty and dedication from their members the likes of which others only whinge about not having; I'm sorry.

I didn't make our case well enough, I wasn't politically experienced enough or well-connected enough and as a result I failed and we have seen our sport sold to those who will destroy it without thinking. They spoke of unity in a sport; but we know they mean unity with a group who do not have our interests at heart, nor the will to leave us pursue our goals without interference. Even when we told them of that interference, we were ignored, derided, often by those who should have known better from bitter experience, and whose motives still puzzle me. We saw those who have dedicated enormous amounts of effort to junior shooters snubbed in front of us all and for that, there are some whom I will never forgive - are you listening? You know who you are. You have crossed a line and if there is a way back, I've yet to see it.

To those on the new committee; some of you I hold in high regard and frankly I feel sorry for the wear and tear you're about to embark upon; and if you succeed in improving our lot it will be a pleasant suprise indeed, and one for which you will receive praise; but it will nonetheless be a surprise. My advice is to watch your backs because those with whom you work are not all as dedicated as you. You have run clubs and been good shooters and one of you in particular has been a model, an inspiration to more people than he knows; but the morass you're about to land in is unbelievably fustrating.

To those who stood and spoke against us, our sport, and even plain logic in some cases, feel ashamed. You have callously thrown away the dreams of those younger than you to rest upon the falsely described laurels of others in the blind hope that they will not discard you like mud from their boots, and you will not be the ones to pay the price. We had an opportunity to stand as an independent, autonomous governing body, to pursue goals other than "taking the fight to the man", and you have given that opportunity to those who not only have in the past proven that they do not care for us, but who will prove it again in the future.

For myself, I will continue to shoot and train and coach where I can. I will continue to work with and for those whom I trust in this sport and maybe one day, I'll get to see our dreams realised. But to those who stood and damaged us so badly this weekend, I say this: it will be despite your actions and despite your efforts, not because of them. And I fear it may well be the next generation of shooters before we see this happen, thanks to you.

Sparks · 11-09-2005 3:08pm

And for the record; phrases like "accountability only stymies the system" need only one response: Molann an obair an fear.

Sparks · 12-09-2005 11:50am

Those passed and not passed, for the record:

That the NTSA immediately withdraw from the NRPAI and seek independent recognition from the Irish Sports Council, the Federation of Irish Sports, the Department of Justice and other relevant bodies; but that our withdrawl not be contingent on such recognition.
Not Passed
That the agenda of all NTSA committee meetings be published on the website at least 3 days before committee meetings.
Passed
That the minutes of all NTSA committee meetings be published on the website and made available to all NTSA members with the exception of the AntiDoping and Disciplinary committees, whose meetings should not be held concurrently with other meetings.
Not Passed
That the NTSA institute a programme of pistol safety courses for its members.
Passed
That the NTSA appoint a dedicated cartridge pistol coordinator for smallbore and fullbore pistol events; and charge him with the oversight of the reestablishment of pistol shooting in the republic.
Passed
That the NTSA commit to publishing a monthly newsletter.
Passed
That the NTSA change its membership policy from a club based system to an individual system, with the following fees:
Club Affiliation fee: €50 per annum

Individual Membership:
- First year, through an NTSA club: free
- First year, not through an NTSA club: €2 student / €5 adult
- Subsequent years: €2 student / €5 adult
- Individuals may not serve on committee nor vote in the AGM during their first year.

Optional extras:
- Newsletter: €15 per annum or €2 per copy
- Insurance: As per Insurance policy details
Not Passed
That term limits be defined for each committee position as follows;
- Chairman: 2 terms
- Other committee position: 3 terms
- each term to be one olympic cycle.
Withdrawn
That the system of registered shoots be abolished and replaced with;
- A list of recognised shoots whose scores can be used for the purposes of maintaining national averages, rankings and classifications; and
- Supported Shoots, one per discipline per NTSA club, where the NTSA pays for all operational costs of the competition from targets to prizes to advertising and the club keeps all entry fees.
Not Passed
That the NTSA institute formal review meetings following all National Championships, International Matches in which the NTSA send Irish shooters to compete, and all Supported Shoots. Minutes of these meetings to be made available to all NTSA members via the website.
Not Passed
That a maximum wind velocity be set for outdoor matches beyond which scores will not be counted for national ranking purposes.
Not Passed
That outdoor and indoor prone rifle shooting averages, rankings and classifications be maintained seperately.
Passed
That a subcommittee be appointed with representatives from all NTSA clubs to review the Memorandum and Articles of Association of the NTSA, it's final recommendations to be made available to all NTSA members.
Passed
That an internal appeals process be instituted for cases where formal complaints are made to the committee.
Passed
That the NTSA appoint an Anti-Doping Officer.
Not Passed
That the NTSA appoint a Children's Officer.
Not Passed
That the NTSA appoint a Ladies' Officer.
Passed
That the NTSA appoint a Collegiate Officer.
Passed
That the NTSA commit to building a National Shooting Centre and to that end appoint a dedicated Development Officer.
Passed
That the NTSA commit to have at least one club-level coach accredited by the NTSA and NCTC in each NTSA club within two years; and that at least one club-level coach be accredited by the NTSA and NCTC in each new NTSA club within two years of the club affiliating to the NTSA.
Passed
That the NTSA discipline coordinators convene subcommittees comprising representatives from each club which shoots their discipline; said representatives to be active shooters at at least club level in that discipline.
Withdrawn
That the NTSA create a network of club PROs who are in contact with one another and the national PRO.
Not Passed
That the NTSA allocate a realistic budget for Public Relations.
Passed
That the NTSA actively pursue corporate sponsorship for the National Squad.
Passed
That the NTSA itself apply for a grant under the Capital Grants Scheme to purchase equipment that can be used nationally, such as electronic target scoring machines, equipment control gauges and so on.
Passed
That the NTSA schedule seperate 10m Airgun and 50m Rifle National Championships at the end of their respective seasons from next year onwards.
Not Passed
That the NTSA committee, at its first post-AGM meeting, publicly state its goals for the coming year and how they plan to achieve these goals.
Passed
That from next year's AGM, nominees for committee posts must be submitted to the committee prior to the AGM notice being sent to NTSA members; that a deadline for this be made publicly known and listed in the offical calendar; and that such candidates be permitted to submit a brief written note (of up to 200 words) regarding why they feel they are the best choice for the post; and that the list of nominees and their submissions be circulated as part of the AGM notice to the NTSA members.
Withdrawn

Sparks · 12-09-2005 11:51am

BTW, In regard to the rather blatent threat from one of the speakers against the first motion, the NRPAI cannot act to take the NTSA's ISSF recognition away from it. From the ISSF constitution:

1.3.3 Membership is open to one Federation from each country. Countries with two member federations recognized prior to 1989 may retain dual membership, but no new applications for membership must be accepted from more than one federation per country;

We currently have two federations: the NTSA and the ICPSA. Should either cease to be recognised, then the other immediately gains full recognition as the sole ISSF member federation for Ireland. Should the NRPAI apply for recognition, they simply would not have the application entertained. Should the NTSA close down, recognition would devolve to the ICPSA, and should the NRPAI then wish to seek recognition, they would have to take the recognition for all ISSF shooting, including olympic shotgun events, from the ICPSA.

Frankly, the odds of that happening are low enough that I'd wager that we'd be hit by a metorite right on the Spike in O'Connell street first.

tireur · 12-09-2005 8:26pm

The role of moderator is to moderate debates on these boards. How can Sparks be the moderator for a discussion on how to run the NTSA when he is one of the main antagonists involved in the debate? The write up on the NTSA Agm was a dreadful piece of self pity, self justification and self glorification.

civdef · 12-09-2005 8:32pm

I think you're misunderstanding the role of moderator here, no act of moderation has occurred on this thread.

If you disagree with something just say so in a post. Moderators are fully entitled to post on subjects as the mood strikes them. Unless they were deleting or editing other people's threads, which isn't happening here, then the moderator status is beside the point.

tireur · 12-09-2005 8:47pm

According the the Oxford English Dictionary, a moderator is someone who is "go between in disputes" or a "mediator". Are you saying that " moderators" on these boards are not moderators

Sparks · 12-09-2005 8:48pm

The idea of the forum, tireur, is to be an open forum for discussion with only basic rules regarding civility and the like. There is more than just the one moderator precisely so that you won't get a little fiefdom springing up. Civ and I don't agree on anything and we'd probably disagree strongly on some stuff; and further moderators as appointed will be equally independent and bound only to enforce the board's charter; and the moderators watch each other; and there are avenues for those with a complain to put it forward publicly, in the feedback forum , or privately by reporting the post with the little icon to the left of each post (the red triangle with the exclaimation mark in it:

If those on the other side of the debate want to put their views forward in public, they've every bit as much freedom to do so as I do. I very much doubt they will, but they have the option.

If you think you can come up with a fairer system, let us know...

And if you think for a moment that I ought to feel some kind of regret for being passionate about my sport and that I ought to just shut up and go stand in a corner, please do learn to cope with that emotion, because you're going to have to live with it for quite some time.

And try to ask yourself as well - do you really want people to be apathetic about the sport?

Sparks · 12-09-2005 8:56pm

tireur wrote:

According the the Oxford English Dictionary, a moderator is someone who is "go between in disputes" or a "mediator". Are you saying that " moderators" on these boards are not moderators

At the top of the page is a blue bar with a few links in it: User CP, Members List, etc. The second link is the "FAQ", or Frequently Asked Questions link, tireur. Click that, then search for "Moderator" and you'll get this :

Moderators oversee specific forums. They generally have the ability to edit and delete posts, move threads, and perform other manipulations. Becoming a moderator for a specific forum is usually rewarded to users who are particularly helpful and knowledgeable in the subject of the forum they are moderating.

Does this answer your question?

tireur · 12-09-2005 10:13pm

Thankyou for your helpful explanation of what you do Sparks. Now that I understand that you can say what you want, without having to be balanced or fair, it helps me understand the viewpoints you have expressed . What a pity you seem unable to direct your passion for the sport into improving the facilities and organisation available to target shooters . Instead, you seem to be achieving the opposite without really understanding why. Maybe this explains your failure to achieve your goals at the AGM?

civdef · 12-09-2005 10:44pm

Now that I understand that you can say what you want, without having to be balanced or fair,

I don't think you're getting it tbh, this applies to everyone on the board. The moderators job is to step in where things get out of hand, not to be some sort of forum blue helmet impartial observer.

Generally speaking also, mods agree that if they are involved in an argument, they'll leave moderating that thread to another mod. I'm not sure what else we can do to allay your concerns - any suggestions?

tireur · 12-09-2005 10:51pm

OK CIVDEF, good idea. Looking back over the threads to do with the organisation and politics of shooting in this country, I agree with you that it would be a good idea if you were the moderator and not SPARKS, It would be helpful also if SPARKS was not described as a Moderator when he posts on such threads.

Sparks · 12-09-2005 10:52pm

You feel we should not be able to say what we want tireur? Sorry, I disagree.

You feel that I should direct my passion for the sport into improving the facilities and organisation available to target shooters? What a pity that you are so ill-informed; that's what I've been doing this past seven years.

You want to know why we didn't achieve our goals at the AGM? You'd better watch the small details, like who spoke against us, who suddenly disagreed with the records kept in signed written minutes, who suddenly forgot about written letters asking for information, and you might get a clue as to the general trend from the comments made along the way, with threats of our organisation being taken over by force should we attempt to stand independent, and comments about how committees operate best in secrecy, without accountability to get in the way...

I can assure you tireur, I fully understand the motivations behind, and consequences of our goals; and I remain convinced that they are what we should be striving for; and I'm more than happy to explain why to anyone who doesn't understand why they're a positive thing.

Sparks · 12-09-2005 10:54pm

Tireur, Civdef is a moderator, with the same rights and abilities as me and the other moderators. There is no hierarchy.

tireur · 12-09-2005 11:00pm

Sparks ,are you implying that there was a conspiracy against you? Why don't you join the committee of the NTSA and work with them .

Sparks · 12-09-2005 11:14pm

A conspiracy against me personally tireur? Don't be daft.
But were there sides and quiet chats in the hall before the meeting and did people suddenly show up from nowhere and did the register of members suddenly nearly double in the space of two weeks? Well, that's a matter of record really, isn't it?

tireur · 12-09-2005 11:21pm

That's quite an impressive list of coincidences Sparks. It sounds like there was some organised opposition to your ideas. Is this the case and if so why do you think it happened? Was there any voting on the motions and if so how were the votes cast?

tireur · 12-09-2005 11:24pm

CIVDEF, any response to your idea of becoming the moderator for this and other related threads?

civdef · 12-09-2005 11:34pm

Eh, I already am....

Sparks · 12-09-2005 11:40pm

Organised opposition tireur? I'd have to say yes. I can't think of an explanation that makes more sense. What I can't understand, however, is that those motions, as I said, weren't really mine; for example, the first motion, to get out of the NRPAI, was first put to me by the Chairman of the NTSA several years ago (who is now the Vice-Chair of the NTSA). And, in all the years since, at every match, in every chat in the pub after a match, the same line was put forward; if we didn't get out of the NRPAI, we'd be shafted (a rather prescient opinion, as it turned out). So those voting against the motions (and representing many others via proxy), were actually voting down motions they'd supported for years.

And it struck me as odd, that at the start of the meeting, we agreed that the money (and it is a reasonable sum) in the bank could be used better than just sitting there; and the point was made by a man who was later awarded honours for his work with UCD over the years that that money should be used for supporting the clubs, not decorating our bank account; and yet when the proposal for Supported Shoots (where the NTSA would pay for the operational costs - targets, prizes, etc - and the club would keep the entry fees, thus encouraging competitions to be run and financially supporting the grassroots in one move) was brought up, it was voted down by those same people who only moment before were expressing the opinion that the money shouldn't just sit there.

And what struck me as contemptable, was that when it was pointed out that the current arrangements with the Nationals were both unnecessary if a Festival event was desired and made it impossible for colleges to field teams, it was said that this was the fault of the college shooters for not being committed enough. This, in the same breath as acknowleging that the Colleges are one of the most important sources of new shooters we have, and thus one of our most important resources. But instead of agreeing to return the Air Nationals to a date that made it possible for colleges to attend, it was suggested that the Intervarsities should instead be the concern of the students. Despite the fact that the NTSA's ignored it for years. Despite the fact that an NGB's job is to drive both performance and participation up. And despite the only formal response to the change in scheduling - from any club in the NTSA - being a formal written protest from DURC at being cut out of the Nationals.

Frankly, I'm left puzzled and confused and hugely disgusted. Why vote against your own motions? Why vote against helping clubs? Especially when you're running them? Why vote against making it more equitable for shooters to try out for national squads? Why vote against strengthening the organisation? Why vote against all the things the committee are meant to be volunteering to work to support?

Well Tireur? Any idea?

Clash · 13-09-2005 12:00am

Passed

Not to dampen down a good argument with facts or anything, but it seems that 15 of the 28 motions were passed, of those 13 remaining, 3 were withdrawn, leaving 10 not passed. That's a pretty good AGM to my mind, getting a disparate bunch of people to agree to over 50% of motions submitted.

I'd have to say, if I was facing into an AGM with 28 motions before it, apart from the normal agenda, I think I'd stay at home and wash my hair

Sparks · 13-09-2005 12:14am

By numbers Clash, it's grand. But when you look at the actual motions themselves, it's a much more depressing story. The Colleges are shut out of the Nationals again; the clubs are looking at another year with no help from the NTSA and left with the question once more of "what do we get for our affiliation fee?"; membership is still made too expensive for students so that the attrition rate for college club graduates will remain at well over 90%; scores shot in international competitions still remain ineligible to keep a shooter in the National Squad (so that it's entirely possible for a shooter to put in an MQS score in Bisley or Intershoot, and not be eligible for selection for the National Team!); if you show up to a registered shoot and the wind is at gale force your score still counts to your average (even though others at shoots with better weather will have an unfair advantage over you) - so clubs running shoots outdoors have yet another reason to fear bad weather on the day as noone who wants to have a high average will risk the shoot; club PROs will have to be part of the "in crowd", or they may find they're being left out in the cold by those that are meant to be working to support them; and clubs won't have a formalised means to get a voice in how their disciplines are administered at a national level (which, again, means you have to be a part of the "in crowd" to get a good hearing).
And while much has been promised, and I have confidence in two or three of the committee to actually try to do something, I have no confidence that they'll be able to get past the obstacles that will be thrown up in their way. And from the grins and smug looks at the time of voting, I'm fairly pessimistic about the odds of those initiatives ever being implemented, despite how badly they're needed.

tireur · 13-09-2005 8:30am

Taking an overview of what has been said so far raises some questions in my mind,viz.
1. I get the distinct impression that Sparks does not like the people on the NTSA committee and hence does not communicate with them. You did not answer my question Sparks,about joining the NTSA committee but surely dialogue and communication inside the organisation is better than trying to ambush them at the AGM
2. Your list of motions amounts to instructions to the committee on how to run the organisation. Were all of the motions debated and voted on? If so then a majority of people must have disagreed with your ideas on the failed motions? Surely this is democracy in action?

tireur · 13-09-2005 8:41am

Sparks wrote:

Frankly, I'm left puzzled and confused and hugely disgusted. Why vote against your own motions? Why vote against helping clubs? Especially when you're running them? Why vote against making it more equitable for shooters to try out for national squads? Why vote against strengthening the organisation? Why vote against all the things the committee are meant to be volunteering to work to support?

Well Tireur? Any idea?

Perhaps it is the way you worded the motions or the way you organised your support. Perhaps it is because you demonstrated the same attitudes at the meeting that you display on this board, i.e. a self belief that you are the only one who knows how to run the NTSA yet you do not seem willing to do any of the work?

Sparks · 13-09-2005 8:49am

1. I served for two years on the NTSA committee tireur. There are some whom I would never again work with, and there are some with whom I'd break my back working. But believe me when I say that a lack of communications is not the problem. Hell, I've been hauled up in the past for communicating with them too much. And this was not an "ambush", they had those motions for over six months - they were submitted back in April.

2. "My" list of motions (allmost all of which can be traced back to those who were sitting at the top table) amounts to a stated desire from a significant portion of the members of the company as to how they want things run in their name and with their money to those who volunteered to do so. This isn't some private club we're talking about here; this is a limited company, under the 1963 companies act. Our tax money is sent to them via grants, and we pay money to them directly in dues and levies. And one of the complaints I occasionally heard at the top table was that we never knew what shooters wanted. This time, there's a list of things shooters want. And what happened? It's stomped all over, not just for the competitive shooters who train for international matches and invest huge amounts of time, money, blood, sweat and tears into the sport; but also the recreational shooters, the guys and girls who just shoot because it's a fun sport to be involved in and a relaxing way to spend a sunday morning. This time both groups lost out. And I'm still trying to figure out whose interests were served.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

[Sept. 10] NTSA AGM

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