Is the Irish language still relevant to our daily lives?

Sleepy

Not at all. I'd say that a distinctly different history and outlook on life seperates us from the countries on the continent and the UK far more than a language that most of this country can't speak, never mind use on a regular basis.

Well, that and the sea surrounding us

Sleepy

mickd wrote:

Ah now we are getting places, I was thinking when you would resort to personal invective to try an put across flimsy arguments.

:rolleyes: Says the man who hasn't put forth a single solid argument in this thread.

I cannot speak any other European language that still doesn't mean they are not relevant to me. Relevance is a subjective term that is open to interpretation

And let me guess, your loose definition of "relevant" is the only one we should listen to? Are you trying to say that you can claim the language is relevant to the majority of this country, despite the fact they can't even speak it? And you call my arguments flimsy? :rolleyes:

You are one who resorts to emotive rhetortic to put across your point e.g "our childern" " bully" etc

So the fact that I feel strongly about this invalidates my argument somehow? Let me ask you this: if it's not our children that suffer from a poorly chosen curriculum for their leaving certificate, who is it? If it's not our children who can't follow their chosen career path because some politician thinks it'll win him a few votes amongst the gaelgeoirs to force an irrelevant language to be part of the job criteria, who is it?

What would you call it when one section of the community (a minority at that) forces it's beliefs on the rest? It's hardly democracy. And from a quick word search on this thread you've used the word bully as much as I.

Stop trying to worm away from the points presented to you by criticising my posting style.

That notion of oppertunity cost so your saying for instance that Maths is taught at the expense of English. If we follow that route we would have no education system at all. One question where is the research to prove this theory in the Irish education system??

One doesn't need research to prove that one subject is taught at the expense of another. Your correct in your assertion that Maths is taught at the expense of English. If it were scrapped and the time freed up, English could be taught to a much higher level.

However, numeracy and literacy are considered to be the corner stones of an educations (making up the "three R's"). As such, we find a balance between the subjects and allow them each some time. We're now approaching the crux of my argument and one point I've put at you time and time again in this thread: do you believe that Irish, a language spoken by a minority of this country (according to your own stats, which as sceptre and I pointed out, seem to over-state the true levels of 'proficiency' in that language) and with no practical use to anyone interested in following a career outside of academia is more important than sex education, driver's education, IT, health and fitness education or any one of a miriad of subjects which are not currently being taught at a proficient (or any) standard?

Yes, it would be *nice* to have a population that could speak our historical language. It would be *nice* to have a population that could read Latin too, however, it's simply not practical and neither is the inclusion of Irish on our national curriculum.

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

sceptre wrote:

I'm afraid that's a rather potentially misleading blanket statement where used to indicate actual usage despite your having successfully substantiated it as factual according to the census.

How many of them are over 18 and how many people actually use it outside of school?

well if you go to www.cso.ie you will get the answers

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

So the fact that I feel strongly about this invalidates my argument somehow? If it's not our children who can't follow their chosen career path

Where is evidence that children can't persue their chosen career?

Yes You do feel strongly about the presence of Irish in the education system. A feeling that has no basis in fact. No amount of red herrings is going to change that. There is one area of education where that economic idea of cost oppertunity has been applied its the university sector and the status of Irish Universities is rapidly declining as a result. If large numbers of people were failing Leaving Cert Irish, thereby not being able to enter university or further education as result your theory may have some credence but this is simply not the case. I am getting this notion that your gripes are based on personal experience if that is so well don't apply them to everybody else.

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

kleefarr wrote:

Just a thought. Shouldn't this discussion be in Irish?

A valid point!!

T.J.

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

Do Luxembourg, the Basque Country or Scotland force their children to use their historical language as one of their selection criterias for advancement in their education? Do they block people from entering the public sector if they can't speak it?

Firstly I was mearly pointing out the similarities between what you are saying and Nazism. It was not intended as an insult although I'm not too worried if it was considered one.

Secondly Irish is one of our official languages set it the constitution which was agreed upon by the majority of the country. Just because they couldn't speak it didn't make it irrelevant to them. Much like Flemish in Belgium as it too is an official language which is compulsory even though the majority don't speak it and they too have to learn both to enter the public sector.

Thirdly the question is if Irish is relevant to us not if the way it is taught is the right way. Besides it is a european language now and if you are forced to learn French or German for the junior cert why not Irish

sceptre

mickd wrote:

well if you go to www.cso.ie you will get the answers

That's more than a bit lazy. You could say the same about me but I'm the guy asking a relevant question, you're the one advancing a case. I'll mark that down as "not proven" and "question avoided/deflection attempted by the case proponent" then.

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

All I stated is the number of people who speak Irish. You asked a question about usage and I stated that the results are available from the same source.

Ron DMC

Bheadh sé i bhfad níos éasca daoine a fhágáil chun a cinní fhéin a dhéanamh faoin teanga agus gan a bheith ag argóint faoi ar an idirlíon. Faigh reidh leis an 'thread' seo sula dtéann sé thar fóir.

vector

Irish should be taught differently in secondary school

It should be taught in the same way as french, german... using real phrases and not assuming an existing familiarity, at ordinary level anyway.

and people should stop talking about people havin learning irish for "12 years"
how many think they actaully learned Irish in primary school?

It should be just equal to french, taught in the same way, and dare I say it optional, and it not optional then certainly not required for entrance to the NUI.

kawaii

Cod?

Sleepy

mickd wrote:

Where is evidence that children can't persue their chosen career?

Bottom of the page: http://www.publicjobs.ie/en/about/pas.htm

Yes You do feel strongly about the presence of Irish in the education system. A feeling that has no basis in fact. No amount of red herrings is going to change that. There is one area of education where that economic idea of cost oppertunity has been applied its the university sector and the status of Irish Universities is rapidly declining as a result. If large numbers of people were failing Leaving Cert Irish, thereby not being able to enter university or further education as result your theory may have some credence but this is simply not the case. I am getting this notion that your gripes are based on personal experience if that is so well don't apply them to everybody else.

Eh, I think you'll find most university presidents cite a lack of funding as the reason the status of Irish Universities are declining. I'd also argue that the under-utilisation of the time spent in secondary education also undermines the talent of the people entering universities in Ireland and given that entry is based more off a system of supply and demand than one of academic suitability towards the course, we have many people entering college courses they simply don't have the ability to complete.

The numbers of people failing LC Irish are completely irrelevant to the overall standard of education achieved by Leaving Cert students.

My problems with Irish being a compulsory subject at Leaving Cert are to do with it's impracticality, low level of usefulness to students, discrimination against students without an aptitude for languages, high opportunity cost of it's place on the curriculum

So far, you've offered nothing other than your own opinion as the reason for keeping Irish as a compulsory subject so trying to discredit those parts of my argument that are influenced by my opinions is a little pointless really.

Sleepy

T.J. wrote:

Firstly I was mearly pointing out the similarities between what you are saying and Nazism. It was not intended as an insult although I'm not too worried if it was considered one.

And I was merely pointing out your ignorance of the meaning of the word Nazi. National Socialism would advocate the preservation of individual cultures, languages and bloodlines...

Secondly Irish is one of our official languages set it the constitution which was agreed upon by the majority of the country. Just because they couldn't speak it didn't make it irrelevant to them. Much like Flemish in Belgium as it too is an official language which is compulsory even though the majority don't speak it and they too have to learn both to enter the public sector.

Why is it relevant to someone who doesn't speak it? The constitution is a pretty weak defence to turn to as it's a document written over sixty years ago for a country that bears little resemblance to the one in which we live today.

Thirdly the question is if Irish is relevant to us not if the way it is taught is the right way. Besides it is a european language now and if you are forced to learn French or German for the junior cert why not Irish

I haven't argued that it should be removed from the junior cert course. However, both French and German are modern languages that could be of use to one in the development of a career in almost any profession. Irish can't claim to be of use in the development of a career in anything but it's own academic study.

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

Bheadh sé i bhfad níos éasca daoine a fhágáil chun a cinní fhéin a dhéanamh faoin teanga agus gan a bheith ag argóint faoi ar an idirlíon. Faigh reidh leis an 'thread' seo sula dtéann sé thar fóir.

Is fíor dhuit.

vector

Sleepy wrote:

... Irish can't claim to be of use in the development of a career in anything but it's own academic study.

and govt jobs

T.J.

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

And I was merely pointing out your ignorance of the meaning of the word Nazi. National Socialism would advocate the preservation of individual cultures, languages and bloodlines....

Would it not advocate the preservation of a single culture which is supposedly stronger? And I said similarities I didn't claim that your comments were exactly the same.

Sleepy wrote:

Why is it relevant to someone who doesn't speak it? The constitution is a pretty weak defence to turn to as it's a document written over sixty years ago for a country that bears little resemblance to the one in which we live today. .

Is it not the individual who is the best judge of what is relevant to them? Irish affects me even though I speak English. Just because you aren't in the same boat doesn't mean nobody is. I'm not saying it is relevant to everyone but you are giving the impression it is relevant to nobody.

Sleepy wrote:

I haven't argued that it should be removed from the junior cert course. However, both French and German are modern languages that could be of use to one in the development of a career in almost any profession. Irish can't claim to be of use in the development of a career in anything but it's own academic study.

And one could argue Irish is too. The E.U. seem to think so and Irish can be of use both in Irish speaking areas and in professions that deal with linguistic or cultural history

Sleepy

vector wrote:

and govt jobs

If you've been reading this thread you'd realise that I've already dealt with that point. The requirement for government employees to speak Irish is an artificial one. Most civil servants swat up to pass the exam, scrape through it and promptly forget all about it. It's not relevant to the day to day running of government and I know from first hand experience that the translation of government documents is done by academics.

I've applied these translations to a piece of report generation software I had to write for a public sector employee due to the ridiculous legislation requiring published documents to be available in Irish. The document in question has never been requested in Irish (despite being quite an important document).

So, while Irish may be listed as a requirement for the civil service, in reality it isn't a requirement, merely a barrier to entry which discriminates against the non-Irish speaking majority of the Irish population.

Sleepy

T.J. wrote:

Would it not advocate the preservation of a single culture which is supposedly stronger? And I said similarities I didn't claim that your comments were exactly the same.

The German Nazi Party of the 30's and 40's version of it would have, however they have not been the only Nazi party in history and the core Nazi belief would be the preservation of the individual cultures and bloodlines as distinct and different things. If you've ever taken a look at the stormfront forums (both scary and amusing tbh), you'll find many of those there to be RA heads who'd fully support reverting this country back to nothing but Irish speaking. :rolleyes:

Is it not the individual who is the best judge of what is relevant to them? Irish affects me even though I speak English. Just because you aren't in the same boat doesn't mean nobody is. I'm not saying it is relevant to everyone but you are giving the impression it is relevant to nobody.

It's relevant to a minority if we are to go by the numbers of people who speak it, read it or use it on a daily basis. It has zero practical uses in modern life. Yes, it is of some historical and cultural value but that doesn't merit the current practices of discrimination, squandering of tax-payers money and denial of a proper education that are currently in place in an attempt to keep the language on life-support.

And one could argue Irish is too. The E.U. seem to think so and Irish can be of use both in Irish speaking areas and in professions that deal with linguistic or cultural history

I probably place more importace on the Irish language than the EU do and don't try to fool yourself otherwise. The EU allowed the language to become an 'official language' because it was a cheap sop to the Irish government who in turn were motivated to get the motion passed because it was a cheap sop to a vocal minority that had no real detrimental effect on the rest of the country (when you consider that it probably costs us less than Bertie's image consultants do :rolleyes:).

What professions deal with linguistic or cultural history outside of academia?

Or were you just not reading my posts and merely looking for something to argue against?

Odaise Gaelach

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Ronny Mitchell wrote:

Bheadh sé i bhfad níos éasca daoine a fhágáil chun a cinní fhéin a dhéanamh faoin teanga agus gan a bheith ag argóint faoi ar an idirlíon. Faigh reidh leis an 'thread' seo sula dtéann sé thar fóir.

Creidim go bhfuil an teanga níos láidra innú buiochas leis Ídirlán agus ríomhaire. Innú, táimid ábalta a caint í nGaeilge le daoine eile níos éasca ná deich bliana ó shin, agus tá sé níos éasca éolas a fhaigh faoi Gaeilge.

Grudaire

Ach Nílimid abalta spás a fáil chun ean argóint ceart a beidh againn....
Fiú anois táimid ag leabhairt as bearla unas go mbeadh 'Sleepy' abalta caint ar ais dúinn.
And not to insult you by confusting you sleepy I was merely saying that the gaelgoir's or people who wish to speak irish here at least acknolage the arguement, and are willing to discuss it, weather or not anyone will be enlightened by the occasion.

Mise le tinnis ciann
(Nílim abalta litriú in aon teanga)

philologos

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Odaise Gaelach wrote:

táimid ábalta a caint í nGaeilge le daoine eile níos éasca ná deich bliana ó shin, agus tá sé níos éasca éolas a fhaigh faoi Gaeilge.

Afach níl tú abalta go leor eolas a fhail ar an idirlíon.

Dave3x

I've just read this thread all the way through. And:

It's getting quite heated. The constant reference to "RA" is ridiculous. This has nothing to do with support for the language. And Nazism is completely off-topic.

As for the irish language- believe it or not, there are people, admittedly an older population, who have a poor standard of English. Therefore, it is, from a legal point of view, imperative that Government officials are bilingual, particularly the Gardaí. This will continue to be the case until the language is officially dead (which in my opinion is unlikely to be soon).

Bear in mind also that Irish has only been taught on a national scale for what- 90 years? So that's approx. 3 generations, being generous. Since love of the language seems to be passed down through families, you'd need a huge percentage of fluent speakers from each generation to make a majority. So, taking that short time span, and the pressures of international travel and business, which only came about in recent decades (and would make the language less important on a large scale) the irish language is actually doing quite well.

As an official EU language, there is now more political emphasis. And socially-I know of about 20 or 30 friends I can have conversations in irish with, and perhaps up to 100 people I don't know that well (and i don't know huge numbers of people).

Also, the numbers of people who can speak the language is being underestimated here. Most people wouldn't be brave enough to claim "I speak Irish", but that doesn't make them ignorant. Most are out of practice (admittedly to a lrge extent). If you were to theoretically ship the entire population to a Gaelteacht area for 3-4 weeks, almost everyone would have an intermediate standard upon their return. People have the language, they just don't use it.

So, in short, the irish language can be relevant to anyone, if they choose. It may require a little effort, but it's a matter of pride for most people. If a government minister announced they were abolishing irish in the morning, they'd be run out of office. Anyone agree?

philologos

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

cén fath nach bhfuil tu abalta é sin a scriobh as Gaeilge, tá sin n fhadb leis an forám seo agus ta tu in ann cleachtanna a fhail ar an foram seo

luckat

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Irish will only be spoken again when people speak it because they love it, and treat each other with respect when they speak it.

When you speak a word of Irish in Ireland, everyone turns into a national teacher, watching to correct you. People treat Irish-speaking as if it's a contest. It's nasty.

And there's a lot of lying - including that of people who say "Oh, I'd *love* to speak irish". If there's one thing it's easy to learn in Ireland, it's Irish! You can always find a class, if you want to.

Apart from those in the Gaeltachtaí, and those who speak Irish at home, people often speak Irish to punish others.

All this makes what was once a beloved language and is still a beautiful one, essential to us (in my opinion) a source of pain and grief.

And yes, I could have said all this in Irish, but because nobody speaks Irish to me, my Irish is so rusty that it would have been (bhéadh? bhíodh?) a struggle.

T.J.

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

It's relevant to a minority if we are to go by the numbers of people who speak it, read it or use it on a daily basis. It has zero practical uses in modern life. Yes, it is of some historical and cultural value but that doesn't merit the current practices of discrimination, squandering of tax-payers money and denial of a proper education that are currently in place in an attempt to keep the language on life-support.

How does it deny proper education. I've read your posts on how it takes emphasis from other subjects and quite frankly its just not true. Furthermore Irish has practical uses in Irish speaking areas even if it is for the minorty and in many jobs (see below)

Sleepy wrote:

I probably place more importace on the Irish language than the EU do and don't try to fool yourself otherwise. The EU allowed the language to become an 'official language' because it was a cheap sop to the Irish government who in turn were motivated to get the motion passed because it was a cheap sop to a vocal minority that had no real detrimental effect on the rest of the country (when you consider that it probably costs us less than Bertie's image consultants do :rolleyes:).

Even if that true the fact that the motion was passed has put greater importance on Irish which was the desired effect

Sleepy wrote:

What professions deal with linguistic or cultural history outside of academia?

Or were you just not reading my posts and merely looking for something to argue against?

Did you not read you own post? You said "for its OWN academic study." Linguistic and cultural history doesn't just deal with Irish therefore I have shown you a profession that meets the criteria you were looking for. You can hardly claim no academic professions count. And besides even jobs that do involve Irish for its own academic study are still jobs and therefore Irish does have practical uses

Odaise Gaelach

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Jakkass wrote:

Afach níl tú abalta go leor eolas a fhail ar an idirlíon.

Aontúaim(?) leat, Jakkass. Ach ceapaim go mbeidh sé níos éasca eolas a fhail le hám. Ceapaim go bhfeicfimid níos mó forums ar an idirlíon - amhail an forum seo - go dtabharfaidh eolas faoi Gaeilge. Í bhfocailí den Beatles, "It's getting better all the time."

Dave!

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Odaise Gaelach wrote:

Aontaím leat, a Jakkass. Ach ceapaim go mbeidh sé níos éasca eolas a fhail le hám. Ceapaim go bhfeicfimid níos mó forums ar an idirlíon - amhail an forum seo - go dtabharfaidh eolas faoi Gaeilge.

Agus sin í ceann amháin. Is fóraim aistriúchán(translation) é, agus tá a lán daoine cuidiúil ann(go príomha daoine Meiriceánach ).

Míshásta

Jakkass wrote:

Afach níl tú abalta go leor eolas a fhail ar an idirlíon.

Níl an ceart agat ansan, Jakkass. Tá a lán lán suíomhanna Gaeilge ann agus a lán clár plé leis. 'Sé an fhadhb is mó nach bhfuil ach dornán beag daoine ag baint úsáid as na fóraim chéanna agus eachtrannaigh cuid mhór acu. Ní bhíonn aon deachracht acu siúd le foghlaim na teangan de réir dealraimh.

Féach anseo:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=53063