Is the Irish language still relevant to our daily lives?

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

NoelRock wrote:

Mmm, that must be why they absorb/waste 20 PERCENT of the overall broadcasting budget and get only 5 percent of the audience in return eh? Real viable. Let's see them go private and do it without government aid.

Obviously they would not survive then again public service broadcasting is not exclusively about economics. TG4 is providing a public service for people who communicate through the medium of Irish and for people who have an appreciation for the langugage.

kleefarr

Is it compulsory in school?
My son is starting school in September and I would rather he learnt a more useful language like Spanish/French/German/Italian. I could see him getting more use out of these languages when he started to travel the world.

Shyster wrote:

Make it optional for the leaving, then the bitterness and complaints would die down and those of us who want to speak irish could do so in peace.

Exactly.

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

These languages are already studied at school so that question makes no sense. Yes Irish is compulsory because we live in Ireland and our nationality is Irish.

Sleepy

DaveMcG wrote:

No, it's not relevent to our daily lives, but it should be. It's part of our culture, and it's a shame to see so many people trying to get rid of it. Without our history and language, what makes us different from England? I'm not saying "I hate the Brits", but our society is following theirs; we wear the same clothes, listen to the same music, speak the same language... We're disintegrating as a country! I think the language is very important and should be mandatory still. However, there should be a MAJOR reform in the education system that puts more emphasis on oral Irish at a young age, and which links up with using it in our daily lives, such as maybe having the Gardaí speak as Gaeilge firstly, and English secondly. Like someone said, other countries in Europe speak English fluently, and then can turn around to their mate and speak in their own tongue. It's embaressing that such a small % can speak Irish(myself included). I'm going to keep learning it, but it's alot harder now that I'm not in school, etc.

That is the most naive post I think I've ever read on boards.ie. Do you think our women should still be dancing at the crossroads on their way home from morning mass as well?

You like Irish, fair enough, that's your privilege. Believing that because you feel the language identifies you in some way this is solid reason to force it upon the rest of the country is not. Frankly, the embaressing thing is not that so few of us have any Irish (though it is a slamming indictment of our education system), but that there are so many still prepared to force their beliefs on others and encourage the government to discriminate against those that disagree with them.

mickd wrote:

Listen your an adult now wheather or not you want to learn this language is up to you, but drop the kiddie nonsense.

I'm 25, I left school a long time ago. I was never given the choice as to whether I "learnt" Irish or not thanks to people like you. Who's the childish one: the bully or the person who raises their voice when their education is being damaged?

The Irish language is part of our identity and it is a viable working language. Yes the state education system made a bags out of teaching it but on the other hand other state ventures such as TG4 has made great strides in making the language appealling. Regrettably audience figures are low. If the eduacators put Ros na Run on the syllabus this would stimulate interest.

The Irish language in no way identifies me as an Irishman, so no, it's not part of our identity. It might be part of yours but please don't presume to speak for the rest of us. The notion that it's a viable working language is utterly laughable. We spend millions of taxpayers money propping up your hobby every year, force it on schoolchildren as one of the determinents of the future success and it's still dying out. Do you honestly believe that this money and education time couldn't be better spent?

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

I'm 25, I left school a long time ago. I was never given the choice as to whether I "learnt" Irish or not thanks to people like you. Who's the childish one: the bully or the person who raises their voice when their education is being damaged?


The Irish language in no way identifies me as an Irishman, so no, it's not part of our identity. It might be part of yours but please don't presume to speak for the rest of us. The notion that it's a viable working language is utterly laughable. We spend millions of taxpayers money propping up your hobby every year, force it on schoolchildren as one of the determinents of the future success and it's still dying out. Do you honestly believe that this money and education time couldn't be better spent?

Firstly I would never presume to speak for everybody so excuse my use of 'our' in that context. In hindsight I was a bit extreme in my first post with regard to language and the effects it had on young minds in school. That was the fault of the people of the day (legislators, dept of education etc) not the language. People need to move on from this. Yes serious mistakes have been made in the promotion and use of Irish. I live in a Gaeltacht area where Irish is in daily use so I dont regard it as a hobby. Its a shame that so many people have such contempt for the Irish language even though Irish is their nationality. I believe honest attempts are being made to address past mistakes and they should be encouraged rather than dismissed.

kleefarr

mickd wrote:

These languages are already studied at school so that question makes no sense. Yes Irish is compulsory because we live in Ireland and our nationality is Irish.

May be I should have worded it differently. (the only question was the first part anyway)
I would rather they concentrate on one or more of the other languages instead of Irish. I don't think Irish will be beneficial to them when they get older.
Irish may be your nationality, not everyone in Ireland is Irish and not all Irish believe they should or want to learn Irish.
People should be free to choose, that is the only fair way.

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

kleefarr wrote:

Irish may be your nationality, not everyone in Ireland is Irish and not all Irish believe they should or want to learn Irish.
People should be free to choose, that is the only fair way.

The same can be said about any other country but its not the case.

segadreamcast

mickd wrote:

Obviously they would not survive then again public service broadcasting is not exclusively about economics. TG4 is providing a public service for people who communicate through the medium of Irish and for people who have an appreciation for the langugage.

Thus proving that it's watched by a tiny minority, and that the language is spoken by an even smaller minority - therefore it is surely proving that, for the majority of this country, Irish is no longer relevant to our daily lives?

Sleepy

mickd wrote:

I live in a Gaeltacht area where Irish is in daily use so I dont regard it as a hobby. Its a shame that so many people have such contempt for the Irish language even though Irish is their nationality. I believe honest attempts are being made to address past mistakes and they should be encouraged rather than dismissed.

So for you, Irish is a lifestyle choice and is therefore relevant to your daily life. For the vast majority of Irish people however, it's no more than a subject they didn't like in school.

If money grew on trees I wouldn't have a problem with TG4, the grants to Gaeltacht areas, the necessity for government departments to publish everything as Gaeilge (which, as I've mentioned before, is usually a very poor translation anyway due to the lack of modern words in Irish), etc. etc. etc. Unfortunately, however, money doesn't grow on trees and all of these things hold a high opportunity cost to society as a whole.

The first attempt to address past mistakes is to make Irish an optional choice for both Junior and Leaving Cert level (I have no problem with it being taught at a primary level, primarily for the strongest argument made in defence of the language imho: it's cultural significance) and to remove it as a job criteria for anything but the position of Irish teacher. The things that could be done with an extra 5 hours a week over 5 years in secondary education would be incredible. You could use an hour of that time to give students proper PE classes and reduce the future tax burden that's going to be caused by obesity levels, use another hour a week for drivers education and reduce the numbers of road deaths due to poor driving standards in this country, use another hour to provide our children with proper sex education etc. etc.

Gah, I've gone off on another rant...

kleefarr

mickd wrote:

The same can be said about any other country but its not the case.

I went to school in Cyprus for a while and I didn't have to learn Greek.


As has been said, freedom to choose either way would make most people happy I think. I don't hold anything against people who speak or want to learn to speak Irish, but I think it's unreasonable to expect everyone to learn it regardless.

No hard feelings!

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Oh none at all after all this is just a exchange of views.

vector

Is it still possible to address post in Irish? (and I mean beyond the gaeltacht and pale, BAC 1 and all that)

plink

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

yep i feel that it is

without the irish language we wouldn't, individually or socially be the same. it's everywhere around us - in our names and place names; even the way in which we speak is effected. if you were to compare an english person and an irish person linguistically, i think you would see that the irish person uses the language in a deeper way than just words and sentences, and this comes from the colourful history of the irish language. we for example use more adjectives than say the english, as we would have with spoken irish. even gramatically - for example (although this is bad english grammar) - "i do be"...now while that is very bad english, it would make sense in irish - the aimsir láithreach....a continual present tense that we don't have in the english language.

this may all seem like waffle to some of you, it makes sense to me

but yes, i think the irish language is important.

cat

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

NoelRock wrote:

that the language is spoken by an even smaller minority - therefore it is surely proving that, for the majority of this country, Irish is no longer relevant to our daily lives?

The following information comes from the CSO
2002 Census of Population Volume 11 - Irish Language


1.57 million people can speak Irish

Just over 1.57 million people aged 3 years and over were able to speak Irish in 2002 compared with 1.43 million in 1996. However, in percentage terms there was a slight decline from 43.5 per cent in 1996 to 42.8 per cent in 2002. Ability to speak Irish was higher among females (45.9%) than males (39.7%).

This information is contained in Census 2002 Volume 11 – Irish Language, which gives further detailed results of the census conducted on 28 April 2002. This report contains the final population figures classified by ability to speak Irish and frequency of speaking it for detailed territorial divisions in the country (see Editor’s note).



Ability varies with age

Ability to speak Irish was highest among the school-going population with over two-thirds of 10-19 year olds recorded as being able to speak the language.

Ability declines in the immediate post-education age groups but picks up again for 45-54 year olds.

Females outperformed males in each age group in 2002 - the differential being most pronounced in the 15-19 age group.


Making a blanket statement about the relevance of Irish and then applying to the majority of people in this country is subjective completely ignores diversity and is every bit as extreme as the so called "gaeltacht facisists" who tried to bully people into speaking language in the past. I believe it is relevant. The fact we are having this debate that you started means it is relevant and the above stats support this

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

NoelRock wrote:

Thus proving that it's watched by a tiny minority

Like I said public service broadcasting, If we used your rationale BBC2 would have been closed a long time ago. Now its recognized as the finest TV channel in the world beacuse of its programme output. TG4 operates on a similar line. Not everything that enriches the mind can be measured by economics.

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

So for you, Irish is a lifestyle choice and is therefore relevant to your daily life. For the vast majority of Irish people however, it's no more than a subject they didn't like in school.

If money grew on trees I wouldn't have a problem with TG4, the grants to Gaeltacht areas, the necessity for government departments to publish everything as Gaeilge (which, as I've mentioned before, is usually a very poor translation anyway due to the lack of modern words in Irish), etc. etc. etc. Unfortunately, however, money doesn't grow on trees and all of these things hold a high opportunity cost to society as a whole.

The first attempt to address past mistakes is to make Irish an optional choice for both Junior and Leaving Cert level (I have no problem with it being taught at a primary level, primarily for the strongest argument made in defence of the language imho: it's cultural significance) and to remove it as a job criteria for anything but the position of Irish teacher. The things that could be done with an extra 5 hours a week over 5 years in secondary education would be incredible. You could use an hour of that time to give students proper PE classes and reduce the future tax burden that's going to be caused by obesity levels, use another hour a week for drivers education and reduce the numbers of road deaths due to poor driving standards in this country, use another hour to provide our children with proper sex education etc. etc.

Gah, I've gone off on another rant... [/QUOTE

Most of you arguments here are subjective, like speaking for the vast majority of irish people. There is no proof that spending on Irish holds a high opportunity cost to society as a whole yet another blanket statement. Finally the fact that people are lazy and don't exercise, can't practice safe sex and are crap drivers has nothing to do with Irish being taught at school

Stick to the issue, dont be clutching at straws

Sleepy

mickd wrote:

The following information comes from the CSO
2002 Census of Population Volume 11 - Irish Language

1.57 million people can speak Irish

Correction: 1.57 people *claim* to be able to speak Irish or "1.57 million people can string together a few sentences of Irish". There is no way that a third of our population are even close to proficiency (never mind fluency) in Irish.

Making a blanket statement about the relevance of Irish and then applying to the majority of people in this country is subjective completely ignores diversity and is every bit as extreme as the so called "gaeltacht facisists" who tried to bully people into speaking language in the past. I believe it is relevant. The fact we are having this debate that you started means it is relevant and the above stats support this

The fact we're having a debate as to the relevance of the Irish language means that it's relevant? I'm sorry, I can't follow your logic there at all. The Irish language simply isn't relevant to the daily lives of the majority of this country. Even your own data demonstrates that a minority even have some level of Irish, which, given that it's census information, really doesn't tell us anything about their proficiency, interest, desire to keep the language going or whether they consider it "relevant". So given that a majority of the country don't claim to have Irish, can we extrapolate from this that it's irrelevant to the majority of us?

Sleepy

mickd wrote:

Sleepy wrote:

Most of you arguments here are subjective, like speaking for the vast majority of irish people. There is no proof that spending on Irish holds a high opportunity cost to society as a whole yet another blanket statement. Finally the fact that people are lazy and don't exercise, can't practice safe sex and are crap drivers has nothing to do with Irish being taught at school

Stick to the issue, dont be clutching at straws

Your own census data supports my assertations that Irish isn't relevant to nearly two thirds of our population. The poll attached to this thread still shows a majority don't consider it relevant *despite* the porting of this thread into a forum for Irish speakers or those with an interest in the language. I think it's clear that those that consider it relevant are in the minority.

Any governmental spending, or any spending whatsoever infact, holds an opportunity cost. That's an economic fact. The opportunity cost of education in one subject is the time that could be spent teaching another. The issues I mentioned were just some examples of how I feel that time could be better spent.

I don't see how I'm leaving the issue behind. I'm justifying my position for the removal of the props the government is trying to use to keep a dying language alive. I believe that what we're doing to keep the Irish language on it's life-support system is wrong. I believe it's detrimental to the education of our children and that it unfairly discriminates against those that don't happen to be gifted at languages or those that would rather apply themselves to more practical areas of education.

And I'm sorry if you dislike that but I haven't seen a single poster present a solid justification for the status quo.

sceptre

mickd wrote:

1.57 million people can speak Irish

I'm afraid that's a rather potentially misleading blanket statement where used to indicate actual usage despite your having successfully substantiated it as factual according to the census.

How many of them are over 18 and how many people actually use it outside of school?

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

mickd wrote:

Your own census data supports my assertations that Irish isn't relevant to nearly two thirds of our population. The poll attached to this thread still shows a majority don't consider it relevant *despite* the porting of this thread into a forum for Irish speakers or those with an interest in the language. I think it's clear that those that consider it relevant are in the minority.

Any governmental spending, or any spending whatsoever infact, holds an opportunity cost. That's an economic fact. The opportunity cost of education in one subject is the time that could be spent teaching another. The issues I mentioned were just some examples of how I feel that time could be better spent.

I don't see how I'm leaving the issue behind. I'm justifying my position for the removal of the props the government is trying to use to keep a dying language alive. I believe that what we're doing to keep the Irish language on it's life-support system is wrong. I believe it's detrimental to the education of our children and that it unfairly discriminates against those that don't happen to be gifted at languages or those that would rather apply themselves to more practical areas of education.

And I'm sorry if you dislike that but I haven't seen a single poster present a solid justification for the status quo.

The census data states that one third of the population can speak Irish relevance is not mentioned or measured.

The poll attached to this thread tells us nothing about the relevance of the Irish in this country. The result applies to the people who subscribe to this forum, it cannot be applied to the nation as whole.

There is no proof that Irish is detrimental to the education of our children. Mixed ablilty is a fact of life in any education system. There is no cogent evidence that the time spent teaching Irish puts children at a disadvantage.

It is my contention that Irish is relevant to our daily lives, I am sorry to inform you but the language is alive and will be long after we have died.

Sleepy

mickd wrote:

The census data states that one third of the population can speak Irish relevance is not mentioned or measured.

If only one third of the population can "speak" Irish, that leaves two thirds that can't. If you can't speak the language, it can't be relevant to your life. Therefore, Irish is irrelevant to the majority of the country. Quad Erat Demonstrandum tbh.

The poll attached to this thread tells us nothing about the relevance of the Irish in this country. The result applies to the people who subscribe to this forum, it cannot be applied to the nation as whole.

Well, given that this thread is in an area that would be predjudiced towards one result and that the other result is still winning I felt it was worth pointing out. One could statistically apply it to the nation as a whole, though not with any degree of accuracy.

There is no proof that Irish is detrimental to the education of our children. Mixed ablilty is a fact of life in any education system. There is no cogent evidence that the time spent teaching Irish puts children at a disadvantage.

Re-read my previous post. There is an opportunity cost associated with every subject on the course. Therefore, teaching children Irish puts them at a disadvantage in the other subjects that they could be receiving an education in during this time. In my opinion there are far more important subjects than Irish that are not included in the curriculum. I gave a few examples of them in the first post. To my mind, it is more important for future generations to learn how to drive from a proper instructor (rather than through their parents ham-fisted attempts to teach them to drive and a few "clean-up" lessons to pass the test - most experts would support this view) than it is for them to have the vague understanding of Irish that they currently receive. One is a nice thing to have, the other could save lives. I apply the same logic to proper sex education, and again, the same applies to proper instruction in living a healthy lifestyle (PE mixed with dietary education etc.)

You may disagree but I believe that allowing Irish children to grow up to be obese, bad drivers that are ignorant of the risks of std's and unplanned pregnancies is worse than allowing them to grow up with no more than a primary school education in Irish. All three of these things could be taught properly during second level in the same time as is currently spent on Irish so they are a valid opportunity cost to apply.

It is my contention that Irish is relevant to our daily lives, I am sorry to inform you but the language is alive and will be long after we have died.

Your contention is wrong. The language may survive another few generations mickd but I honestly can't see it being anything more than something studied by academics in a century's time.

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Just noticed that more than once you have given yourself the lofty role of purporting to speak for the majority of people in this country. Relevance has not been measured. These stats server a guide as to how many people speak the language

Yet again you draw down subjects as obesity, sex education, and driving in a bid to support a daft assertion. If you can show me a report or research where there is a direct relation to the time spent teaching the Irish language and Irish children being at disadvantage in other areas I will concede this. Until then it remains a diversion that has nothing to do with this topic.

Until the Irish people decide to remove the position of the Irish language in the constitution, the EU reverses the decision to have Irish as a working language. Until there is public clamour to have funding for Irish removed which there isn'nt, until we drop the everyday terms we use to mark our individuality such as taioseach,dail,garda,craic etc then I believe that Irish is relevant to our everyday lives. Your prediction about it being anything more that studied by academics in a hundred years time has first mentioned a hundred years ago and has still to materialise

Sleepy

mickd, will you read my posts? Or is English only being your second language causing problems for you? :rolleyes:

If one cannot speak a language it cannot be of any relevance to one's daily life. Can you argue against this assertation?

Not by logic or reason, no. You can try emotive rhetoric, national pride etc. but it doesn't actually discredit the argument. You can take the smart alec approach of "it'd be of relevance to your life if you were stuck in a position where you really needed to speak in that language" but in reality that circumstance doesn't exist (or has been artificially created as a requirement to enter careers it's completely unnecessary for).

If the majority of the people can't speak Irish.
And not being able to speak Irish makes it irrelevant to your daily life.
Then Irish is irrelevant to the daily life of the majority of the people.
(where are you getting lost here?)

If one subject is taught in school, it is taught at the opportunity cost of teaching another. Can you argue against this assertation?
Unless you can disprove the existence of opportunity costs, no, you can't.

And do you really think that during the *hundreds* of hours spent teaching Irish to secondary school students they couldn't learn *anything* more beneficial than a language that is barely spoken it the country of it's origin, never mind anywhere else in the world?

T.J.

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

sceptre wrote:

I'm afraid that's a rather potentially misleading blanket statement where used to indicate actual usage despite your having successfully substantiated it as factual according to the census.

How many of them are over 18 and how many people actually use it outside of school?

Nobody said it was there first language but in the last number of years Irish has become "cooler" so maybe in a few years when current students leave school Irish will become a regularly used language. In Luxembourg they have their own language which is spoken less than Irish in this country but it is still recgonised by the E.U.. Now that Irish is an official E.U. language maybe the process of it being used every day will be accelerated so lets not write it off just yet

T.J.

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

If the majority of the people can't speak Irish.
And not being able to speak Irish makes it irrelevant to your daily life.
Then Irish is irrelevant to the daily life of the majority of the people.
(where are you getting lost here?)
QUOTE]

Like I have meantioned before the native language of Luxembourg, Basque, Scottish etc. are not spoken by the majority of people does that make them irrelevant? Not to the people who do use them it doesn't. Just because Irish isin't relevant to YOU what gives you the right to trample on others beliefs. Have you not heard of Nazism. Quite alot of people would hate to see Irish die out therefore IT IS RELEVANT TO THEM. So I think the question is where are YOU getting lost?

Sleepy

T.J. - The irony of calling me a Nazi in this thread is beautiful. Google National Socialism and learn what the word Nazi means before hurling it at people who's views you disagree with as an intended insult. The imposition of the Irish language on our population would actually be far closer to National Socialistic beliefs than my own would be.

Do Luxembourg, the Basque Country or Scotland force their children to use their historical language as one of their selection criterias for advancement in their education? Do they block people from entering the public sector if they can't speak it?

I am not saying that Irish should be banned, nor did I say I would like to see it die out. I simply believe that it's promotion in Ireland has a negative impact on our lives because of the lost opportunities to develop ourselves in other ways. You are, and rightfully are, as free to practice your hobbies as I should be to practice mine. Irish is relevant to the lives of the *minority* of this country so whom is it that's trampling on who's beliefs? Though I believe the imposition of Irish on the lives of our population is more a matter of trampling on our rights (the right to education and the right to self-determination) than our beliefs.

Grudaire

Ehh does nobody here feel that the only thing that seperate's us from other country's is our language? do you want to be part of the EU, or Irish? you can be both, but Irish gives us our own identity.... we'd just be another state in the EU. beside's you don't mind saying pog mo thoin to anyone?

mickd

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

mickd, will you read my posts? Or is English only being your second language causing problems for you? :rolleyes:

If one cannot speak a language it cannot be of any relevance to one's daily life. Can you argue against this assertation?

Not by logic or reason, no. You can try emotive rhetoric, national pride etc. but it doesn't actually discredit the argument. You can take the smart alec approach of "it'd be of relevance to your life if you were stuck in a position where you really needed to speak in that language" but in reality that circumstance doesn't exist (or has been artificially created as a requirement to enter careers it's completely unnecessary for).

If the majority of the people can't speak Irish.
And not being able to speak Irish makes it irrelevant to your daily life.
Then Irish is irrelevant to the daily life of the majority of the people.
(where are you getting lost here?)

If one subject is taught in school, it is taught at the opportunity cost of teaching another. Can you argue against this assertation?
Unless you can disprove the existence of opportunity costs, no, you can't.

And do you really think that during the *hundreds* of hours spent teaching Irish to secondary school students they couldn't learn *anything* more beneficial than a language that is barely spoken it the country of it's origin, never mind anywhere else in the world?

Ah now we are getting places, I was thinking when you would resort to personal invective to try an put across flimsy arguments. I cannot speak any other European language that still doesn't mean they are not relevant to me. Relevance is a subjective term that is open to interpretation

You are one who resorts to emotive rhetortic to put across your point e.g "our childern" " bully" etc

That notion of oppertunity cost so your saying for instance that Maths is taught at the expense of English. If we follow that route we would have no education system at all. One question where is the research to prove this theory in the Irish education system??

sceptre

mickd wrote:

Ah now we are getting places, I was thinking when you would resort to personal invective to try an put across flimsy arguments. I cannot speak any other European language that still doesn't mean they are not relevant to me. Relevance is a subjective term that is open to interpretation

You are one who resorts to emotive rhetortic to put across your point e.g "our childern" " bully" etc

You ignored my simple question too and I didn't say boo to you. It's at the bottom of page 4. Without an answer your 1.57 million figure is worth precisely nothing. I'm disappinted. Perhaps you just missed it.

kleefarr

Just a thought. Shouldn't this discussion be in Irish?