Tips for starting off in the Industry

mycroft

"gee wizz Mister working in the movies would be just nifty!!!"

Just dotting down a few notes about how to go about getting that big break.

1. Get your driving licence.

2. Get a car.

3. Seriously get your driving licence and get a car. I ain't kidding.

I can't emphasis the first two points enough (maybe if I sprinkled tinsel and goldstars around it) Even if you've been to film school, are an auteur genius, you need a car.

Most film production offices and shoots are in out of the way locations. I've been in production offices which have had ceilings collaspe, and occasionally even in a (working) insane aslyum, abandoned miltary barricks, and train yards. Unit calls can range from 11 o'clock at night to 5:30 in the morning, so you cannot rely on public transport (if any even runs there)

Furthermore any entry level position from apprentice editor, to assistant art director, to trainee clapper loader, to production assistant will require you to run errands. From picking up props, supplies, expendables, dropping off dailies, gettting the office lunch, you're going to need your own transport.

Running a car is expensive, I know. But on any half decent production if a car is part of your job, you'll recieve a car allowance, which will cover all your costs. And if it's a low budget production, well to be honest, the fact that you have your own car, could be what makes a budget conscious production manager pick you over the others.

If you don't have a car and get offered a job, lie and say you do. For the first week or so rent a car, until you can arrange a loan. Speak to the transport manager he should be able to get you a good deal on a 2nd car.

If you don't have a licence, stop everything and apply now.

4. Do not have a casual attitude to time keeping. Y'know those signs that pop up around town pointing the crew to film sets. Well on top of that the crew get a set of movement orders, which details the routine. Whats more a member of the location team has travelled from the routine, during rush hour, obeying the speed limit, and gives you the exact time it takes to run the routine from the office to the set. YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE FOR BEING LATE. You cannot be late. If your unit call is for 7am, this does not mean you're washing down a bacon sarnie and a cup of tea at 7am it means you're on set ready to go, everything unpacked. You can be fired on the spot for being late. No come back. And if you're the trainee be there ten fifteen minutes than everyone else. And I cannot express how nuts US crews are about time keeping. Seriously. They're psychotic.

5. Become an anal retentive perfectionist.

6. Pick a department and stick with it. No one likes a dilletente. Aside from displaying a lack of focus, you'll need to get sponsors for each different union grade you try out for. Unsure of what you want to do in film? Go to filmschool.

7. Getting your ticket. Your union card is refered to as your "ticket" and to get even a trainee AD or clapper loader job you need to have it. You'll need to get four signatures. And these will vary from traineeship to traineeship, some will require the signature of a HoD or two in your specific department. Others will require four signatures from anyone in any grade in your dept (ie, focus puller, operator etc) Some jobs won't be pushed, some departments like editing barely exist, others will be miltant. If you've got a potential job, and you've still not got all your signatures, bring your ticket along on the first day of work, and you'll find some sympathetic signaturers.

8. Getting your ticket and your job. Slightly trickier 01 874 9731 is the number for the film branch of siptu. Call them and ask for the union list for your chosen department. They will post out the names and contact numbers for everyone your department and their grade (note trainee's cant sign tickets) Now comes the ugly part. Cold calling. Give them a ring, be polite, be deferential, ask to meet, and talk about the industry and this department. To reassure yourself, everyone you've speaking to will probably have many many calls like the one you're making when they were starting out. And you'll find most people to be receptive, patient and open minded. It's a nice ego boast having a young person coming to you looking for career advice. Before you meet them, bone up, check IMDB, even maybe have some questions lined up. Fingers crossed you make get your ticket signed and maybe they'll remember you next time they're crewing up. Whats that? precarious? difficult? open to whimsy and chance? Congradulations thats what working in the film industry is like.

Now when you call SIPTU ask them to send you out the chase list. This is a list of union approved upcoming productions. Notice the date it's starting shooting. Art department, production and locations and other "prep" departments start crewing up and working 6months+ before shoot, while some dept (camera, sound etc) crew up a few weeks beforehand, while editing may not even fully crew up till after the shoot starts. So consider when to approach. If any of the crew you spoke to before mentioned the job now might be a good time to give em a tinkle. Otherwise fax or post your CV into the production manager (their name will be on the chase list as will the address phone and fax number of the production office), and follow up with a call the next week. They'll forward your cv to the approiate HoD. Even if you don't get a job, call up during the shoot (never during the first week too manic) introduce youself and ask maybe if you could come in and meet them. Jobs can crop up during the production.

Next.

Do's and Don'ts

Thanks that was very interesting. What experience do you have in the biz?

monkeyfudge

<Jonny> wrote:

Thanks that was very interesting. What experience do you have in the biz?

He goes into some detail here on his experience:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3207646&postcount=9

But yes... very good thread. I look forward to the do's and don'ts.

BlitzKrieg

excellent advice (though i am sadly stuck on the first two...)


I assume the ticket applies around the world regardless?

mycroft

BlitzKrieg wrote:

excellent advice (though i am sadly stuck on the first two...)


I assume the ticket applies around the world regardless?

Nope around the world, you have to start anew, in fact, moving from coast to coast in the US requires you to rejoin different unions. (the US system is more complex and the unions much stronger, aside from training courses, and workers rights issues, most freelancers health insurance is covered by their unions. You must work a certain number of days a year, and pay a certain amount of dues, but considering the state of the US health care, health insurance is vital, so it gives you some idea of the importance of the unions over there)

They're just unions, there's no way to shift your memberships and dues across borders.

I had a two week gig in pinewood a few weeks ago, blitz, I can't express how vital it is to have a car, and licence aside from the ungodly hours I had to put in, renting a car worked out significantly cheaper and faster than public transport.

I'd urge you to before heading off on any other training course to start driving lessons ASAP.

BlitzKrieg

i think i will...cheers for that mycroft. Though my last driving lesson (last christmas) ended with me putting the car in the ditch (and on its side) so you can understand me having cold feet at the moment.


Thanks for clearing up the ticket issue cheers.






And to add to the advice.


Film Studies.

-Understand completely that Film Studies in University etc are different to Film Schools as they are geared (much in the same way as English) to understanding the entire media. That means alot of theory and it is not geared to film production. Some do offer a balance between film production and Film theory. Personnally i would advise taking these courses regardless as it builds on your ability and knowledge but if you want to learn the filmmaking process without tests on film pyschology and globalisation then go for a film school. In most cases they offer better hands on experiance of equipment and the overall process.


-I agree with Mycroft that you must be 100% on what you want to be. But that doesnt mean it doesnt help knowing the other jobs well enough that you wont p*ss off the DP by moving a light or the Editor by not shooting enough coverage. IF you can afford it, take a short class on these departments, if you cant pick up a book on some of them. Knowing what they have to do and what they want You to do,can help your work with them. (though dont let them push you over.)

dory

Cheers for the advice guys. Im now kicking myself that I just sold my car to buy a laptop!!

Hugh Hefner

How about a motorbike instead? Would that serve such needs?

BlitzKrieg

depends what position you work in.

If its in lighting or camera...then a big defitnite NO!

(think of the equipment you will need to bring with you)

but if your uhh...actually its a big NO overall because (and i only really found this out this summer) everyone regardless of their job will be carrying lots and lots of equipment unless your in a really big production (and then you wouldnt need a car as the studio would provide a truck).

mycroft

BlitzKrieg wrote:

depends what position you work in.

If its in lighting or camera...then a big defitnite NO!

(think of the equipment you will need to bring with you)

but if your uhh...actually its a big NO overall because (and i only really found this out this summer) everyone regardless of their job will be carrying lots and lots of equipment unless your in a really big production (and then you wouldnt need a car as the studio would provide a truck).[/QUOTE]

Not even a really big production, moderate tv has camera trucks and drivers, even a halfway decent short.

If it's style thing Hugh then no don't do it. If it's a budgetary thing, then fine you'll probably get away with it for a job, maybe two. Because if it's a budgetary thing then you'll be driving some ****ty little 125cc jobbie, and then you'll discover you're shooting in the wicklow mountains. In February. Even a trainee you should be earning a livable wage, and theres no reason that after your first job, you dont go out and buy yourself some 1.1 liter 3 door.

But if you want a bike to look cool then buy a bike and car, and leave the car for work, because sooner or later you'll be doing a freebie, or picking something up for as a favour for your boos, and you're going to have to explain why you had the prime lens for a panvision in the box on the back of your bike when you spun out. Oh you're okay, but that 30,000 dollar lens is f*cked.

lemondrop

Thanks for that information. I have just graduated from film school and want to get myself a job....im looking to go into the area of producing so itll be PA for me.
I am lucky i have both a full licence and car with full comp insurance.... i need to get my ticket sorted out.....
thanks again, its really helpful. You rarely have ppl who just lay it down like it is. what you need to do etc.

cheers

Fiona

Jim

Pretty much everyone I've talked to in the industry says don't bother your arse going to college. Get in the union and work free for 4 years, you'll gain an awful lot more experience that way. You'll also build up a good few contacts, and they're worth more than whatever qualifications you have.

Miguel_Sanchez

Jimeatsmenu wrote:

Pretty much everyone I've talked to in the industry says don't bother your arse going to college. Get in the union and work free for 4 years, you'll gain an awful lot more experience that way. You'll also build up a good few contacts, and they're worth more than whatever qualifications you have.

That's a matter of opinion really I'd say. Going to college can give you chances to do something that you're not going to get to do for ages working as an assistant.

For example: You're into cinematopgraphy. Going to film college can give you the chance to be DP on shorts shot on film. If you want to direct you can get to do it at college but you won't for years working your way up. Also - there's a steep learning curve in college - obviously student shoots are different from professional ones but you learn and you learn fast what you can and can't do on shoots. It also gives you a chance to experiment with things without too much pressure being put on you.

When you come out of college you will move up the ranks quicker with the experience you've gained. As long as you're good that is.

I found that contacts can be built up in college too. I have gotten phone calls from former lecturers about jobs and am currently directing a short that my old college lecturer is acting as executive producer on.

mycroft

Jimeatsmenu wrote:

Pretty much everyone I've talked to in the industry says don't bother your arse going to college. Get in the union and work free for 4 years, you'll gain an awful lot more experience that way. You'll also build up a good few contacts, and they're worth more than whatever qualifications you have.

I'd agree with Jeff as well.

For starts and no offence to the younger boards members I don't think the average 18yo (in general) is mature enough to start in the industry, you need to grow up a bit, before you start, also aside from the working for free bit, having someone, unpaid around, getting in the way, needing to be shown everything and anything, is a bit of a hinderance, it's often less hassle having paying someone next to nothing, who's got an approximate idea of what they're doing.

I have to say part of my college course was poor on post production technology and I had to pick stuff upon the way, in both ways I saw the limitations of both training routes, college can teach you alot of theory, while pratical experience will teach you how to do stuff, but very often not "why" you're doing something. Mistakes are generally made by someone who understanding how to do something, but doesn't understand why they have to do something a certain way.

Finally and I think this is the best reason to go to film school, you may not discover, what exact path you want to undertake. You get to try out a variety of roles, and jobs. I never would have choosen editing were it not for college. And put cynically theres little point toiling away in camera for 8 years, only to discover, on your first chance operating, you hate it. College lets you try out not just HoD roles but, also, the grunt roles, so you gain an idea of what you want to do, and what you're going to have to do, to get there.

[edit]One thing I'll disagree with Jeff on, is college lets you movie quicker up the ranks, not true, in mine and anyone I know experience, it's a tough long slog either way [/edit]

BlitzKrieg

Jimeatsmenu wrote:

Pretty much everyone I've talked to in the industry says don't bother your arse going to college. Get in the union and work free for 4 years, you'll gain an awful lot more experience that way. You'll also build up a good few contacts, and they're worth more than whatever qualifications you have.

Another advantage of college that Mycroft and Jeff didnt mention is theory and history.

College is the best place to learn why films are shot and edited in cetain ways, the effect certain images have on viewers and the best way to tell a story.


Going to college can really help you develope a unique style to your filmmaking. Of course the talent was there before you went to college but it can be refined. Even more college can teach you different ways to approach your material, such as montage editing.


to give an example of some of the dangers of not learning film history:

-My editing teacher told me that while editing short films in new york, the number of young directors who boasted to him that they created a new visual effect by zooming out while dollying forward was unbelievable. He had to explain the 'Vertigo' shot to each and every one of them.

mycroft

BlitzKrieg wrote:

Another advantage of college that Mycroft and Jeff didnt mention is theory and history.

College is the best place to learn why films are shot and edited in cetain ways, the effect certain images have on viewers and the best way to tell a story.

Sorry, but no. College is the sanctuary of those who cannot do, teach. I've learnt more on those lucky afternoons I've had a chance to be able to observe a professional work, get offered advice and to quietly watch em interact, with directors and other HoDs than I learnt in film school.

I've never met a professional soul who's a serious (and I'm sorry I've assisted, people like Tom Noble, who got his editting oscar for Witness, Don Fairservice, who aside from being a bafta winner, wrote the definitive history of the development of film editing styles in his book (film editing, history, theory and pratice) about film theory. Whats important about college is you grasp the fundamentals.

Seriously pretentious **** about film theory is a dead cert into getting your career ignored.

Going to college can really help you develope a unique style to your filmmaking. Of course the talent was there before you went to college but it can be refined. Even more college can teach you different ways to approach your material, such as montage editing.

And blitz I don't want to be flippant, but er your example is the most simplistic form of editing in the world, the rythmn of cutting is dictated by the music, it the easiest and most simplistic form of editing. It differs vastly from, to draw a parrallel, music editing whereby an editor, tries to sync a piece of music to the already cut rythmn of the scene. Thats a challenge. Describing montage editing, a form of editing that should be easy to anyone with a sense of pace, and visual style as a taught approach, is just wrong.

I'm sorry but nocollege can help you develop a unique style of filmaking, you're in a series of classes, being taught by a failed film maker, to a block of people ,anything you draw out of this is shear fluke.

to give an example of some of the dangers of not learning film history:

-My editing teacher told me that while editing short films in new york, the number of young directors who boasted to him that they created a new visual effect by zooming out while dollying forward was unbelievable. He had to explain the 'Vertigo' shot to each and every one of them.

Great and all you're demostrating is the smug arrogance that your lectures display when faced with students of dubious quality. That doesn't really prove anything. Other than your lecturers liked to laugh at the ignorance of their students.

moonboy

mycroft wrote:

Sorry, but no. College is the sanctuary of those who cannot do, teach. I've learnt more on those lucky afternoons I've had a chance to be able to observe a professional work, get offered advice and to quietly watch em interact, with directors and other HoDs than I learnt in film school.

I've never met a professional soul who's a serious (and I'm sorry I've assisted, people like Tom Noble, who got his editting oscar for Witness, Don Fairservice, who aside from being a bafta winner, wrote the definitive history of the development of film editing styles in his book (film editing, history, theory and pratice) about film theory. Whats important about college is you grasp the fundamentals.

Seriously pretentious **** about film theory is a dead cert into getting your career ignored.



And blitz I don't want to be flippant, but er your example is the most simplistic form of editing in the world, the rythmn of cutting is dictated by the music, it the easiest and most simplistic form of editing. It differs vastly from, to draw a parrallel, music editing whereby an editor, tries to sync a piece of music to the already cut rythmn of the scene. Thats a challenge. Describing montage editing, a form of editing that should be easy to anyone with a sense of pace, and visual style as a taught approach, is just wrong.

I'm sorry but nocollege can help you develop a unique style of filmaking, you're in a series of classes, being taught by a failed film maker, to a block of people ,anything you draw out of this is shear fluke.



Great and all you're demostrating is the smug arrogance that your lectures display when faced with students of dubious quality. That doesn't really prove anything. Other than your lecturers liked to laugh at the ignorance of their students.

i feel that this is a bit harsh..
i know you;'ve got a nice dose of experience but this whole thing seems very preachy..
maybe these experiences relate to the college you attended and not to film-schools in general..
film school is a VERY good thing..
provided you approach it in the right way.
and it is true that someone who has not been schooled in film can be as good a film-maker as someone who has studied it for years.
But i reckon good film-making can be down to the person themselves and not down to their schooling..
good film-making(not the techy stuff) can come either naturally or through schooling.
over & out

mycroft

moonboy wrote:

i feel that this is a bit harsh..
i know you;'ve got a nice dose of experience but this whole thing seems very preachy..
maybe these experiences relate to the college you attended and not to film-schools in general..
film school is a VERY good thing..
provided you approach it in the right way.
and it is true that someone who has not been schooled in film can be as good a film-maker as someone who has studied it for years.
But i reckon good film-making can be down to the person themselves and not down to their schooling..
good film-making(not the techy stuff) can come either naturally or through schooling.
over & out

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, it's vaguely incoherant.

I never said film school was a bad thing, I just recommend you don't put much stock in theory and "style" developed there.

Hugh_C

I'm coming to this thread a bit late (no thanks to MyCroft who never let me know!!!) and I'll add my tuppence worth about editing (two-and-a-half of your new fangled cent).

I'm from the never went to film school camp, and I have to say that learning by watching is probably the best approach to editing. Period. You can be taught technique, you can be taught approaches to a subject, but you can't be taught how to edit, you can't be taught the interaction with directors/producers, you can't learn pace, you can't learn confidence. These things you either develop an an individual, or you don't. I've been cutting since about '88 and I'm still honing some of these skills. It's a long time to learn a craft.

I think the film-school dichotomy is also reflected by the two categories of people who watch films: there are those who enjoy (or hate) a film as a piece of entertainment, and there are those who over-intellectualise the form. Bloody navel-gazers!!

I'm inclined to think that this mode of learning is not limited to editing.

Enough for now, I'm mourning the death of an iPod.

mycroft

hughchal wrote:

I'm coming to this thread a bit late (no thanks to MyCroft who never let me know!!!) and I'll add my tuppence worth about editing (two-and-a-half of your new fangled cent).

I'm from the never went to film school camp, and I have to say that learning by watching is probably the best approach to editing. Period. You can be taught technique, you can be taught approaches to a subject, but you can't be taught how to edit, you can't be taught the interaction with directors/producers, you can't learn pace, you can't learn confidence. These things you either develop an an individual, or you don't. I've been cutting since about '88 and I'm still honing some of these skills. It's a long time to learn a craft.

I think the film-school dichotomy is also reflected by the two categories of people who watch films: there are those who enjoy (or hate) a film as a piece of entertainment, and there are those who over-intellectualise the form. Bloody navel-gazers!!

I'm inclined to think that this mode of learning is not limited to editing.

Enough for now, I'm mourning the death of an iPod.

1) Hugh Your Ipod died? Wow, hugh had an ipod that had an analogy interface. Thats how long his ipod lasted.

2) Dude, like a sent you a pm, like weeks ago, if you'd, y'know responded, I'd have dropped a mention in passing this forum's existance.

3) I don't want to sound rude, but take the the combined knowledge of everyone on this forum. Cube it. You're nearly at Hugh's level. I'm not kidding, (hugh, cheque post etc) is the only editor at his level who still mantains what I can only describe as a relish and enthusiasm for both the technology and creative.

[edit] And not to consider the career navel gazing, about a year ago hugh was relaxing in the edit suite while i was cutting (and cutting my teeth on) a promo, finished I asked Hugh's opinion, he was able to pin point the techical flaws and the material flaws, and he had the ability to disect an edit quickly. Finally like all editors I've really enjoyed working with, he's great for explaining the why, and the how of an edit, as an assistant working these days very much an edit and editors choices are abstract to you, hugh's great at the how and the why of an edit, and rolling up his sleeves to wade into a technical issue (all "audio recorded at "25fps"' " )[/edit]

mooncricket

Hi everyone, I just stumbled on boards.ie and this is one of the first threads that struck a chord. I hope ye don't mind me joining this thread. Having been immersed in the poor cousin of film namely TV for over 15 years and only ever dabbling in the background of film, I would heartily agree with Mycroft's comments, but would add one thing that no-one has really mentioned - attitude! It is one of the most important attributes of anyone in the industry, if you have a good attitude and a willingness to learn (at any stage of your career) it will outshine all the college degrees and free tea-making ever. Once you get your first oscar, then you can afford to be a bollox.

Know your experience level and place - there's nothing worse than a fresh college export thinking they're the next big thing 'cos they edited stock footage (that they shot) of squirrels to metallica for their final project and that makes them too important to make tea. Don't undersell your experience when you have it tho'

If it is film you're after, then definitely stick to one discipline (with an appreciation of the others), if you mix and match, you'll end up working in the AV world (nothing wrong with that - it's just not film).

Make friends - not enemies, it's a small industry, don't think you can piss folk off - they may affect your career path.

And as Mycroft says - be early, also be sober, be enthustiastic (even when your not) and leave your bad karma off the set.

If you can't afford a car or are currently in college, get a runner job in one of the post production houses - they deal with the same folk, so your name would start to be propagated, it's not a career - just a stepping stone.

M1cky

eh, ok, making my debut post guys. have to say i'm currently studying Media arts in Dublin Institue of technology auginer Street. am i completely wasting my time? i spent 3 years in college doing a diffferent course but changed because i didn't like what i was doing. i started media arts last year and reading this post has kinda disheartened me. would i be better walking away and trying to get a job in the industry, working my way up? on the plus side i have a drivers liscense (ha ha)!

faithy

would any body have any tips on how to get work experience/ work for free in post production house. I was thinking of going into some post house in town on friday,im new with the film industry, havent had any work with it but need help. will i just go into the post house and ask for work experience or ask if i would be able to work for free, how does this work? Thanks in advance:)

krudler

does anyone know if theres any way to get into the biz down the south end of the country? i live in Limerick and im not crazy about moving to dublin to get a job as a runner in a production house,granted we all have to start somewhere but id rather not move 200 miles to do it

Freelancer

krudler wrote:

does anyone know if theres any way to get into the biz down the south end of the country? i live in Limerick and im not crazy about moving to dublin to get a job as a runner in a production house,granted we all have to start somewhere but id rather not move 200 miles to do it

1) Don't call it "the biz" it sounds retarded.

2) Move to Dublin, aside from regional RTE offices theres barely any work outside of Dublin.

Yes there are companies in the country, but they are usually small operations (and small by Irish standards is [size=1/2]small[/size]) and you'll have a tough enough time getting a job in Dublin, without hamstringing yourself by staying in Limerick. Two films were made in Limerick in the past decade, the crew's came down for dublin for the duration.

cclarke

hope you don't mind me joinin in! :-)

i'm still studying in college at the moe but am also looking for experience in the industry!

is there anywhere in particular you should look out for work?(newspapers, mags, websites)

michael parle

well done mycroft i could'nt agree more as a Actor\Singer\Writer\Producer\Bottle\Washer\Upper'A i drive thousands of miles evry year and i'm only in ireland from wexford Derry for a 5min audition to a gig in sligo to a meet with director for coffee\chat. . . etc . . .
another help topic for what its worth you can always invest as i do in your own short film . . etc any sum from 5,000 upwards can get you started and theres loads of help out there
by the way i earlier on a few boards got carried away with this idea and have ate humble pie please read full apology and groveling on filmmakersnet.ie cheers

Day-wanna-wonga

michael parle wrote:

filmmakersnet.ie cheers

No such website, but thanks for the hot tip....

Guitar1979

Super 8mm

I am trying to source a good, cheap and newish Super 8mm Camera. I'm not up to speed as much as i would like to in the last few years regarding these cameras. I studied Film about 4 years ago and trying to get back into it as a hobby and would like to purchase a cheap starter camera.

If anyone has any pointers it would be much appricated.

Lou.m

Hi,
I am an actress who has been in a few film productions and theatre productions but still fairly new.
A little while ago i was at an audition and was asked which i preferred film or theatre i said i liked both equally and i was told by the director that that was unusual and he told me that actors usually said they hated film compared to theatre and it really annoyed him.

Now i have always tried to get along with all members of a production and have respect for their skills but i know that other actors do not out of ignorance really i suppose and end up treating people terribly sometimes.

I just wondered what other things about actors piss you off. I have always wondered what annoyed people in production about actors you must have some stories ( I think i could start a new thread on this! ) .

I guess i want to know so i can make sure i dont do it!
I know casting directors get very irrated by actors around lunchtime during auditions!
So what annoys you about Actors?
Any tips on what i should avoid?

Maybe i should start a whole new Thread.

bness

excellent, honest, advice- dying to hear more thanks