Atienza Kali in Inside Kung Fu

Dave Joyce

This months edition of Inside Kung Fu has another article on this FMA which covers the Bolo one of the most famous Filipino blades. It was used extensively during WW2 and one of the reasons for the name "Leathernecks" evolving, as this was a piece of hard leather added on to helmets to protect the neck from Bolo attacks.

Kevin_rc_ie

people that play with knifes are generally nuts. i've never had reason to unbeleive this generalisation.

Dave Joyce

You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but what is your solution to a bladed attack (please note I said attack not threat which is becoming more familiar in this country) or multiple opponents?

Black Sheep

I'll keep a look out for this article, as I've always had a sideline interest in trying some fillipino martial arts. They do seem to have a 'built in' public relations problem, though.

I have mixed feelings about Kevin's point of view. On the one hand, I'm sure some people practicing arts dealing mainly with knives do fetishize (if thats the right word) knives and other weapons to an unhealthy extent. On the other hand, I don't think its fair to generalise about everyone doing these kinds of martial arts. Is someone like Dan Innosanto 'nuts'? Probably not. I'm sure there are people in the FMA for recreation, fitness or the cultural aspect of it.

Studying this stuff might also be a matter of context. If you live in a blade culture then it is not going to raise any eyebrows if you practice a blade-based art, and if your study goal is self-defence as well as sport or recreation then it would seem to be fairly sensible. Further, if you are an FMA guy and you live in the US then you can happily trundle around most places carrying a knife as long as it is one that complies with your state laws, if you are so inclined.

If you're in living in a country like Ireland, though, things become a bit more complicated.

Our legislation and society seems to offer limited scope for a blade arts enthusiast. Section 9 of the Offensive Weapons act prohibits the carrying of pretty much anything with a blade or which is sharply pointed in public unless you're got a reasonable excuse / lawful authority or it is work-related. Under the strict letter of the law in Ireland even small penknifes do not fly, and I know people who have initially been charged for having a leatherman tool (which contains a small blade) on them.

If someone is carrying a knife for self defence in this country then they are on a collision course with the law, and they will be painted as the kind of 'nuts' wannabe ninja that Kevin describes, whether they are or not. The "I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six" argument that comes up may have a grain of truth to it, but to be honest I don't believe things have really reached that point in this country yet, media hype aside. Few of us are living in some kind of Irish Jo'burg, and if we are, the solution to our safety concerns probably shouldn't primarily involve tooling up.

OK, so a lot of this stuff transfers to using pens and other items. And I guess you're getting a lot of practice in doing defense against knives. How urgent the need to train that is in Ireland today is going to be a matter of personal opinion. And then there's also the empty-hand component of the FMA, though my impression is that some groups like the Sayocs concetrate on the sexier knifework material if their motto "All blade, all the time" is anything to go by (open to correction on that).

One other thing that springs to mind is that Atienza Kali looks to be a long blade art, using what - bolos etc. ? Its worth noting that machetes are part of the 1991 Offensive Weapons order which lists what are considered 'offensive weapons' that are prohibited from being imported, bought, sold, hired, loaned and so on. Presumably you guys using sticks or some kind of aluminium trainers for your training, but I was wondering whether you have had any problems getting live blades of the right size into the country, or have you even tried?

From an Irish perspective I would imagine there would be much more scope to take a stick-based approach and retain the defense against blade material, while playing down the actual usage of them.

Kevin_rc_ie

what do you mean what is my solution? carrying around a knife myself and then sword fighting the other dude? i really don't expect to meet a guy branishing a knife who actually wants to kill me rather than take my money. however if does happen, and i can't do a legger, i'll do my best to kill that mudda fukka before he kills me.

Dave Joyce

Whoa, I have never advocated the carrying of knives on this or any other forum and I am well aware of the laws here. However, if someone decides to carry an "offensive" (does it smell or something!) weapon then that is their decision. There are plenty of improvised items that can be carried (such as pens etc) without being deemed offensive or for which you would face charges.
Black Sheep you raise some interesting points and I agree with most of what you said but I am really beginning to think that most people are not aware of what is going on in this "safe" country of ours and I am NOT scaremongering. In less that the last twelve months just off the top of my head 3 of my students have been attacked by people carrying blades and have been lucky enough to have come through unscathed. Two of those guys have trained in FMA and the other guy does Muaythai with us, but has helped out in some of the training in our Self Protection classes and FMA. In case I'm gonna be accused of making this up I only want to say that one incident involved one of my guys who works the door and was attacked by a gob****e (who admittedly know sweet FA about knives luckily) who took a slash at him with a butterfly knife, the second was jumped by a member of some of our own ethnic community with a pretty crappy blade and the third guy was attacked on his way home by a drunk with I think it a Stanley knife. Now added to this in London granted; a very good friend had a family member jumped by a gang one of whom was carrying a samurai sword and was hit by another gang member carrying an iron bar causing him a very nasty head injury. He has also witnessed a number of blade (both long and short) attacks in London. So, you really think this material is OTT for this country???
Not really sure what you mean by the comment about Sayoc Kali but this is the motto of Sayoc Kali (and yes it is derived from an offensive system of fighting which is not to everyones liking) but you have to understand there are a lot of aspects to Sayoc Kali such as Sayoc Tactical etc which all come under the banner of Sayoc Fighting Systems, Sayoc Kali is but one.
Atienza Kali is a complete system and covers long blade, knife, hand assistor and empty hands amongst other things. Yes we do train with aluminium trainers and this is what is needed to keep blade recognition because whenever we spar with padded sticks (and they do hurt!) we find ourselves doing things we would not do if we had trainers or especially live blades. Without wanting to sound like a ****head but I certainly don't think having less emphasis on the blade training is good as this type of training is not for everyone but those who really want to know about the reality of having to up against bladed attacks among other things.
Kevin your answer is amusing as I would love to know how you'ed know an attacker has no intension of killing you (intensional or otherwise) and whose sole motavation in attacking you is monetary??? You say you'll do your best to kill him (I won't even comment on that) before he kills you but apart from fighting to the best of your ability (which I think most of us would do) how have you prepared for this type of situation??

StrateBlastJim

Personally i have only done very little training against weapons, and the only conclusion i came to was do not end up in a blade/weapon confrontation.

This is a potentially worrying thread as no one i know has ever been attacked by somebody with a blade.
I am intrested to know how your students found themselves under knife ATTACK, did they provoke their attackers in some way? or where the subject of random incidents just being unlucky to find somebody who wanted to inflict pain?

I know 2 things though, 1. if threatened with a blade i would cooperate fully with the person threathing me, and 2. Should their only reason for confrontation be to inflict injury then the only option to take would be run as you said.

How exactly did your guys get through these ordeals?
What motive was there for the attacks?
Where did these attacks occur?
What actions where taken by the police?

these are just some of the questions that i have been thinking about since reading your thread.

Jamie Mcinerney.

Dave Joyce

First up, these incidents involved my students, not me so I don't feel that I should go into too much detail about the particular incidents and the only reason that I mentioned them in the first place is because I expected some asshole to say I was bullsh*****/making things up. I also resent the insinuation that I train some kind of scumbags who fight at the drop of a hat or provoke situations that they could walk away from. This is not the case and in all three cases these are good guys who are in fact very quiet even when drinking (not in these particular cases btw) and would be regarded as "happy drunks".
All I am prepared to say as regards your questions was that all the attacks took place in Galway city, I would think went unreported to the Guards and in the case of the doorman the guy made a lunge at him with the knife when refused entry, our guy tapped the slash, levelled him with a punch and took his knife. He was admittedly a bit pissed.

StrateBlastJim

Dave Joyce wrote:

First up, these incidents involved my students, not me so I don't feel that I should go into too much detail about the particular incidents and the only reason that I mentioned them in the first place is because I expected some asshole to say I was bullsh*****/making things up.

No probs mate.

Dave Joyce wrote:

I also resent the insinuation that I train some kind of scumbags who fight at the drop of a hat or provoke situations that they could walk away from. This is not the case and in all three cases these are good guys who are in fact very quiet even when drinking (not in these particular cases btw) and would be regarded as "happy drunks".

Didn't mean to make insinuatioins sorry . I never proof read what i was saying and was just typing what came to mind.

Dave Joyce wrote:

All I am prepared to say as regards your questions was that all the attacks took place in Galway city, I would think went unreported to the Guards and in the case of the doorman the guy made a lunge at him with the knife when refused entry, our guy tapped the slash, levelled him with a punch and took his knife. He was admittedly a bit pissed.

Well i glad that you friends all managed to stay safe which is after all the only point that matters.

On another matter i have seen posts by other members of Filipino martial arts stating on a different board that he never leaves home without a blade,,,,,
i just wondering is this what is advocated in your particular art?
Or just one individuals way of feeling safe.

Thanks for your patience Dave, as i am intrested in learning about other martial arts but i myself have only ever done Bjj which i started nearly 3 years ago.

Black Sheep

A lot of people within the martial arts community have anecdotes about people they known being in situations involving knives or syringes. I don't think its the case that all of these anecodates are made up or exaggerated, but I don't think they're all true either, to be honest.

If they were, we'd have a much higher incidence of assaults causing harm or assaults causing serious harm appearing in statistics ever year from the dept. of justice and the Gardai. While the figures fluctuate from year to year, they haven't risen as dramatically in recent years as people's anecdotal evidence would suggest. Ireland remains an incredibly safe place in comparison with other western countries.

I suspect a fruitful way of collecting convincing empirical evidence one way or the other would be to document how many people are admitted to accident and emergency wards country-wide as a result of incidents involving blades. Or in broader terms, what percentage of admissions as a result of assaults involve weapons of any kind. I have statistics from an old Irish Medical Journal study of just this topic, but it is a few years out of date at this point.

My own take on this would be that people in the security industry, or gardai or working on the frontlines of our healthcare system (sad but true) are at a significantly higher risk than the average citizen. After that, it is a matter of geography and lifestyle. Someone living at the tip of Donegal in a small village is not in the same risk bracket as someone living on Gardiner street (no offence to anyone from there, picked it at random, used to live down the road from it myself for a while).

tonyrogdor

In my country there is the problem. And that problem is criminals who have big knives and too have injectors with disease.

Maybe the problem is that bad men can get weapons in the shop. If the shop has no weapons then the bad men have less strong attacks.

Sometimes I see criminal with karate weapon like kama you can buy in shops.

Dave Joyce

No worries Jamie. Admitting certain things on public forums can be unhealthy so I'm not going to say anything as regards myself personally. As FMA systems train with bladed weapons and know the dangers then perhaps some people will come to the decision, and its not necessarily because their instructor advocated it, that they are safer to carry a blade whether legal or not. Certainly in the Philippines (or Thailand) carrying a knife is an everyday thing and not out of the ordinary and not illiegal.
Black Sheep I can certainly tell you (those that know me know that I am not a bull****ter!!) that the examples I gave involved my own students and were fact but then perhaps you think I may have coloured them for the sake of debate or better still like I originally said maybe you're the type that believes I make things up. If you took the trouble to look at the post, you would have seen me mention that as far as I know the guys didn't report the matter, as a lot of people don't and I don't know what kind of nice insulated world you live in but the same applies about people going to hospitals. (I know of one clown who superglued a serious knife wound to his arm, but hold on thats probley anecdotal as well). Depending on where you live a lot of people don't have great faith in the Gardai doing sweet FA about incidents like this. Just for your sake I also better clarify I have NEVER said that incidents are widespread or that the whole country is out of control, but it really pisses me off when people like you don't seem to know what is really going on AT TIMES (NOTE not all of the time). I also think in some ways we are in more danger than say people in the US because we are very complacent, as a lot of people think this kind of **** will never happen to me.

damo

the only defence against a knife attack is to run...only last week in prague i had a knife pulled on me - some little knacker on the street ripped us off a grand total of 30 euro, needless to say in my drunken state i was well pissed off when i discovered so me and my 3 mates chased him up the street and down into a dodgy looking subway entrance, we found him hiding eventually and demanded the money back, he said he had no idea what we were talking about so as we moved in on him to take back our money a knife appeared in his hand - the bastid....anyway its not worth getting stabbed over anything, especially 30 squids so we let him run off, either backing off/running away is definately the wise course of action when someone pulls out a blade

StrateBlastJim

Cheers for the info dave

Musashi

Lads,
Currently the law on knives and having same is as follows

Irish Statutes

So no-one order a Death Star alright?

Its worth noting that machetes are part of the 1991 Offensive Weapons order which lists what are considered 'offensive weapons' that are prohibited from being imported, bought, sold, hired, loaned and so on. Presumably you guys using sticks or some kind of aluminium trainers for your training, but I was wondering whether you have had any problems getting live blades of the right size into the country, or have you even tried?

I recewntly received a historical artifact of an Indonesian Golok style tool,it's not a machete it's a Golok,so not covered under this act.A good tool for camping or bushcraft though.

Colm_OReilly

the only defence against a knife attack is to run

Not always an option Damo. I've seen some good knife defence programs such as Redzone in the US and Karl Tanswell's STAB (Survival Tactics Against Blades) program. These vids aren't on the market to scare you, they offer a way to deal with a knife assault, and at the start of both of them, the instructors are all about running away.

If you have the opportunity, you should check them out.

Dave, have you seen Redzone or STAB? What's your opinion on them?

Colm

pearsquasher

I found this site quite informative on the issue of knives and knife "fighting".

I read it now and then to give me a laugh too... the writer's one funny guy.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/statisticalchances.html

Dave Joyce

Hi Colm I haven't seen Redzone (or heard of it to be honest) and I haven't seen enough (just one/two articles and a couple of still photos) of STAB to really give a proper opinion.

paddyc

dave


what about, scoop the knife, trap it and head butt, head butt, head butt... this is an ancient move carried out by a fella we both know.... does that come under fillo training

paddy

Tim_Murphy

Hi Colm I haven't seen Redzone (or heard of it to be honest) and I haven't seen enough (just one/two articles and a couple of still photos) of STAB to really give a proper opinion.

Here you go...
www.openmat.dk/video/csa/stab.wmv

soma

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Here you go...
www.openmat.dk/video/csa/stab.wmv

I love the part where one guy just runs like the wind - best technique of them all

Something I'd like to see (obviously not gonna see everything in a 2 min promo!) is how STAB deals with a slashing attacker, the high-speed frenzied type. Was practising this scenario a few weeks back and it is a truly unsettling experience (and a real wake up call if it's needed - it shouldnt be - anyone who's confident or cocky around a blade needs their head examined).

STAB has a good rep & I imagine I'll potter along the next time a seminar is held.

dlofnep

That STAB program looks very practical but knifing is very uncommon here. I guess there is no harm in being prepared. I've never been in any scenario that required me to defend myself from a knife.

patjunfa

mmm, looks like a good live way of training. Yet it just seems that everyone is struggling, a bit inneffectively to apply an armbar. More practicle, and less trainable in the live way is to break the arm, not to lean on it with your chest.

Dave Joyce

Ahh, frigg it, my bloody PC is so old and slow it won't download the clip and on top of that I don't have any audio. Must get some cash together and buy something decent at some stage, when I don't have all the other bills and oh great the kids are back to school soon so that should rule it out for another while.
As a matter of interest has anyone looked at the Atienza website and if so, any comments.

Black Sheep

Black Sheep I can certainly tell you (those that know me know that I am not a bull****ter!!) that the examples I gave involved my own students and were fact but then perhaps you think I may have coloured them for the sake of debate or better still like I originally said maybe you're the type that believes I make things up.

Dave, my comments weren't specifically directed at you, please don't take them personally. I was speaking more about the use of anecdotes within the MA community in general. They are used by everyone to support every point of view, and as such I don't believe that by themselves they carry the same weight as empirical evidence like a properly conducted study or similar. They have their place, but I'm sure you agree that often times they should be taken with a pinch of salt.

More specifically, in relation to the issue of knife attacks within Ireland, I was suggesting that if we are trying to construct a picture of what is happening out there, we should be doing better than stories passed along in training, we could look, for a start, at hospitals, who will be treating the aftermath of such incidents, barring the ones who are, er, fixing themselves up with superglue, presumably. Likewise there will be figures from the courts for those who are detected for offences along these lines.

Like yourself, I know people who have been through some horrendous incidents and been lucky to come out the other side. Based on my general experience, however, such incidents are the exception rather than the rule and I think it would be a mistake to adopt some kind of siege mentality where our environment is perceived to be incredibly dangerous, as a result of knowing about them. Again, the statistics appear to bear this out, with Ireland being regarded as one of the safest countries in Europe.

---

Musashi, interesting point about the golok.

I am sceptical, however, that the DPP and courts will want to make the same distinction between a fillipino bolo or golok or whatever, and a machete. To them its an umbrella term which describes something with a particular set of characteristics. I wouldn't want to be the guy with the test case who finds out if that's true or not.

Dave Joyce

Black Sheep sorry man just got the wrong end of the stick. I can understand where you are coming from as regards conclusive proof so we can be accurate but I am genuinely not scaremongering, I prefer to look at things in the context of if you have a one in five hundred chance (or whatever the odds) of being attacked by someone with a bladed weapon then I would prefer to not presume to be one of the four hundred and ninety nine, but prepare for that type of incident, just in case I happen to be the one. Better to be forearmed than forewarned and I don't think this is being paranoid. Also I used to live in a council estate (much like the ones in any city in this country) and the amount of **** that went on which was never reported and unless an absolute emergency never received hospital treatment (because these scumbags knew the Guards would have to be informed). So I don't necessarily agree that reports are/can be accurate and besides I am very sceptical about our lovely government and the releasing of reports which they WILL doctor or rephrase to a certain extent so things will not look too bad.
The other thing that should be bourne in mind is that a lot of the influx of forgien nationals into this country has lead to a lot more knife related incidents (granted amoungst their own communities) but how much longer before some of this could spill over into greater community. Again I don't mean widespread or anything of the sort, just about the chance of these type of incidents occurring. Also who's to say what the future holds for any of us, and with a dramatic downturn in the economy who to say the tide of emigration could occurr again, in which case being proficent with a blade in a forgien country could have its advantages. Lastly with the government/Guards so unwilling to tackle the various traveller feuds all over the country there is a small chance of you coming on one of these incidents, but believe me they don't have a care in the world for innocent bystanders who stumble onto one of their free for alls. PLEASE NOTE I am not suggesting that the above type of incidents are likely to increase but the point has been made by various posters about the use/necesscity of training in bladed arts in this country and I am simply saying that the chance may be unlikely/remote BUT it can happen and theres no use to you if you are a statistic, even a live one.

pma-ire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Here you go...
www.openmat.dk/video/csa/stab.wmv

Looks great! They use SD gear aswell I could see some nice strikes from the instructor there!!

Someone should get them into Cork at some stage??? Aswell as Dave !!!

Musashi

As a matter of interest has anyone looked at the Atienza website and if so, any comments.

I'll have a stab at her!! I know and I'm sorry fer the pun lads!


Those boys on the videos sure can lob knives into a sheet of cardboard well speedily,I'd like to see a more mobile target maybe like Practical Pistol Disciplines utilise? Knowin' how hard it is to judge rotation and distance when knife flinging I think it's only really an option for the many bladed elite.You don't really wanna fling away your only knife at the opening stages of a knife fight!

The sparring sessions were good, but hard to see if any lads were "fencing" and blocking,seemed most were going for "one shot stops" with solid pre-emptive strikes to the head and body.A few accidental disarms flummoxed the players as well.
"Dude,where's my sword?"

The sword length fencing may seem impractical to most,but use a hurley,golf club or piece of Wavin sewer rod instead and your back in the game in council estates in Ireland,I seen all of them used in actual gladiatorial combat where I grew up,or just grew bigger?

As has been pointed out,getting in strife and using a bladed weapon,or pretty much anything, will see you before the courts facing a serious assault charge.I'd have to agree that sometimes multiple assailants etc. could warrant this degree of force but just know that you will have to answer to a court after the incident.
"Judged by twelve than carried by six" aside,you have to get on with your life afterwards in the RW, possibly with the manslaughter moniker attached?

I personally like knives and collect them,but I have seen a tendency to resort to tool based solutions to organic problems.Extensive training in blade styles is probably not for everyone and may lead to a dulling of the moral responses of stylists?
What I am clumsily trying to say is training in blade styles may lead to the mindset similar to "Using a hammer makes every problem look like a thumb"??

If you train every day to respond to a straight punch with a number one slash and then continue into a cutting template,while justified, you may have a job explaining or rationalising it to an Irish Jury.

Again,I like to study knife styles,though most of what I have learned has come from Internet tutorials on "blade down edge in "styles which may have come from Pekiti Tersia??

I know I never want to be on the receiving end of a knife assault from an amateur,never mind one versed in knife styles!!

I've seen a lot of instruction in knife defense which begins with one partner displaying a knife.

This is ****e!!

The first you will know a guy will actually use a knife is when you see the blood! You won't feel the wound except as a "thump" like you took a punch. What those instructors are talking about is a "duel" or mutually agreed bladed combat,which hasn't been seen really since the sandbar fight with Jim Bowie.

I do not mean to take away from the lads who train in indigenous arts from the Phillipines or Japan or where ever, it's a legitimate area of study and retains a lot of knowledge of styles which would otherwise be lost.

Did ye know one of the original double blade styles came from the Irish Celts when they were invading Scotland and eventually sacked Rome? That style is lost now,so fair play to the Italian fencers,Kendo and Iado stylists and the FMA lads for preseving the information at the very least!

I'd love to train with Dave Joyce and his crew as it is a gap in my own training, same way I like to toll with the lads doing MMA/BJJ to learn what they do.Why not be the most complete Martial Artist you can be?

I can sense the first answer is that if I don't study one art totally then I'll never "get it" or be any good.Well, I'll never be more than average to good at this point anyway,but I can have an idea of the incredible range of what is being studied on this island.

That'll do me!

Sorry for the long (again) post and I hope to see more of ye soon!


AMOK!

(the kali lads should get that!)

Dave Joyce

Interesting post Musashi. I do agree that training in blade orientated arts can change your perspective/outlook on things, but it still hasn't changed me into a raving psycho...yet! To be honest I think its opened my mind up to a whole other level.

As regards the downloads on the site let me just say this. Now I'm am not blowing my own trumpet just giving people an idea of my own background, but I was Irish stickfighting coach from 96-02, coaching numerous British (before anyone starts slaggin me off there's no Irish nationals as we didn't have enough people and had to fight in the British for experience), European and World Champions, as well as winning 2 European titles (97/99) and 2 Silvers in the Worlds (00/02), so when I padded stick sparred with Guro Carl I did have some idea of what I was doing, but man I felt like a child with an experienced adult. As he was sparring with me (and me trying like a friggin demon!) he was describing the various fighter types he was provoking in me and all this with analasis WHILE sparring. Believe me this was not arrogance but just someone who is so totally relaxed when fighting (which they call "warrior calm" in AK). I've been known to have a decent belt with a stick but this mans power has to seen to be believed, and with the non-telegraphed short slash is a lethal combination.

The guys also train in heavy weapons (baseball bats, iron pipes etc) and that is why there is a lot of one single heavy shot and the action stopped.

As for throwing, most knife guys carry multiple blades and even if you don't as some of the Sayoc practisioners have often said at seminars I would love to fight someone who will not/cannot throw their knife and I can! Lets see how long you remain comfortable. For the likes of this country there are plenty of things which can be utilised as projectiles and not illegal and can be carried with you all of the time. They do teach 2 different methods (in AK and Sayoc) of judging distance and being accurate with rotation. And they also had moving targets for (multiple!!!) projectile training at Sama Sama this year.

Finally, as for studying one art completely (I'm doing 3 at the moment and would love to do more but simply cannot) you will find with a lot of the guys studying both Atienza Kali and Sayoc Kali they are a lot of guys studying at high levels their own respective arts and simply compliment their training by studying in AK or Sayoc and in some cases both.

LOL @ AMOK!!!

Tim_Murphy

Yet it just seems that everyone is struggling, a bit inneffectively to apply an armbar. More practicle, and less trainable in the live way is to break the arm, not to lean on it with your chest.

They are not trying to apply an armbar, the aim is to control the arm that is holding the knife. in the clip you can see Karl simulate breaks as well as head butts and knees from this position.

Dave Joyce

One point I forgot to elaborate on is the "one shot stops" that can be seen in the video downloads from the site. The reason the action stops after one hit is because the group is working entries which is the focus of attention, as there is no use entering; getting the guy but getting caught yourself, which is referred to in AK as a "double kill". Therefore correct entries are vital to avoid the double kill.