Less than 25% of schools covered by DSL?

vinnyfitz

The broadband for schools programme details are announced here.

It is all a bit odd. Why should the kids in more than 1500 Irish schools be subjected to third rate satelite broadband? Is the situation really that awful?

From the statement;

The breakdown by delivery technology will see the delivery of connectivity to 841 schools by fixed line (e.g. DSL), 1,507 by Wireless and 1,577 by satellite and a full schedule listing the services to be provided to individual schools is attached below and can be found on the web-sites of both Departments.

Is it possible that only 841 out of 3,925 schools have DSL supporting copper at their disposal? I mean schools are supposed to be in centres of population after all.

By the way - why are Eircom not rolling out any of this multi million contract?

DonegalMan

I see my local school - Castlefinn - is getting satellite.

My kids have all moved on from NS so I'm not exactly sure of the numbers nowadays, but it's at least a 10-12 teacher school including a full time principal, so I'd guess at least 300 children.

The school is in the centre of the village on the N15 - it even has fibre running past the front entrance - so it's not exactly the 'middle of nowhere', and several people in the village including myself are already getting IBB wireless from the TV mast in Strabane.

Yet they're gonna give them satellite.

The Government's idea of Broadband really makes me want to weep

damien

It would be a really really interesting project to find out details of each and every school and cross-match them (oooh I'm sounding all CSI:NY) with the locations for the MAN projects and eircom/smart/BT/Leap enabled exchanges to see whether some schools could get something better than satellite but did not.

Delphi91

vinnyfitz wrote:

... I mean schools are supposed to be in centres of population after all.

That is generally true in the case of secondary schools - they tend to be in towns, villages and cities. However, that would not necessarily be the case for primary schools. There would be many locations around the country (especially in country areas) where there would be a primary school but no secondary school. You tend to have a number of primary schools acting as feeder schools to one secondary school.

Sponge Bob

Delphi is generally correct in that assertation.

Remember that Your friendly neighbourhood Sponge told ye all what would happen with schools and VSAT installs in February 2004 did he not ? You will therefore forgive me for being somewhat underwhelmed at my being right ....a year and a half later although some wriggle room was gained for Wireless was it not Viking ???????

Mr_Man

It is not clear whether the technology indicated for each school is the one they are actually getting, or the one which was proposed by the Vendors. The scheme allows some leeway for the vendors to substitute alternative technologies if the one proposed is not viable.

Looking at some of the technologies the schools in this area (North Wicklow) are getting there is either going to be some serious expansion of coverage by the likes of Smart and IBB or some serious rejigging of what the schools will actually get.

M.

Kare Bear

What do schools need it for.

Urban Weigl

Kare Bear wrote:

What do schools need it for.

Good question.

SkepticOne

Kare Bear wrote:

What do schools need it for.

Edumacation.

zuma

Satellite BB is fine for primary/secondary schools as long as they dont do much video conferencing or other time related tasks.

eircomtribunal

The full list of schools and who's how bb enabling them is available from the DCMNR website as an Excel spreadsheet: http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/5E3FEA7E-1958-4C7F-9D8C-A8019660E37D/0/FullAward.zip

P.

Sponge Bob

The vast bulk of schools in Galway City are IBB , God Help Them DSL is a very distant second .

zuma

Right,

After searching that list for the local primary/secondary schools in the area I came up with something of interest.

I live in Bantry, Co.Cork and Smart are providing BB through ADSL to schools in my immediate area.
What I would like to know is how are Smart doing this as the Bantry exchange is probable never going to be fitted with Smart LLU equipment(I wish they would)...so are they just using eircom bitstream under the Smart name???

Thanks for any replies.

Sponge Bob

Yes Zuma , Smart will become an Eircom Bitstream reseller when they start the school rollout. I know of 2 schools on the Dept list that say VSAT but will actually be ADSL as that will be rolled out by the end of the year in their local exchange.

If anyone has confirmation of Eirocm ADSL coming to their area in the next 6 months , and if they are a Smart or Digiweb VSAT school on that list, they can ring up the Dept and get changed from VSAT to ADSL with the same provider.

This will delay the initial install, sometimes by 3 or 4 months, but will cause everyone less grief in the Long Term . I would advise anyone whose school is connected to an exchange on the following list to do the same. This list of TO BE ENABLED exchanges was published after the bids went in for the school scheme.

Ring 1800512128 to confirm precisely when your exchange on that list is to be done .

DSL Deployment 2005-2006 (180 confirmed sites) 20 or so TO BE CONFIRMED and therefore not on this list or any other I know of in the public domain.

A
ABBEYLEIX
ABBEYDORNEY
ACHILL SOUND
ACLARE
ADARE
ANNAGARY
ARDARA
ARDFERT
ARDRAHAN
ARVAGH
ASKEATON
AUGHRIM
AVOCA
B
BALLINAGH
BALLINALEE
BALLINHASSIG
BALLINSPITTLE
BALLINTRA
BALLIVOR
BALLYBOGHIL
BALLYCARNEY
BALLYCONNELL
BALLYCULLANE
BALLYDEHOB
BALLYFARNAN
BALLYGARRET
BALLYGLUNIN
BALLYHAUNIS
BALLYHEIGE
BALLYMACELLIGOTT
BALLYMOTE
BALLYRAGGET
BALLYSPILLANE
BALLYVARY
BALTINGLASS
BANSHA
BELTURBET
BENNETTSBRIDGE
BERRINGS
BLIARY
BORRIS
BRIDGE END
BRITTAS
BRITTAS BAY BRIDGE
BROADFORD
BRUFF
BUNCLODY
BUTTEVANT
C
CAHIRCIVEEN
CALLAN
CAMPILE
CARLINGFORD
CARNEW
CARRICK
CARRIGNAVAR
CASTLEBELLINGHAM
CASTLECONNELL
CASTLEDERMOT
CASTLEFINN
CASTLELYONS
CASTLESHANE
CLAREGALWAY
CLARINA
CLERISTOWN
CLOGHEEN
CLONTIBRET
COACHFORD
COLLON
COLLOONEY
CORROFIN
COSTELLO
CROOKSTOWN
CROSSMOLINA
CURRAGH CAMP
D
DAINGEAN
DELVIN
DONADEA
DOON
DRIMOLEAGUE
DROMAHAIR
DRUMLISH
DRUMSHANBO
DUNCANNON
DUNFANAGHY
DUNKINEELY
DUNLEER
DURRUS
E
EASKY
EDGEWORTHSTOWN
ELPHIN
F
FALCARRAGH
FERBANE
FOXFORD
FOYNES
G
GEASHILL
GLASSAN
GLENNAMADDY
GLENTIES
GRENAGH
H
HOLYCROSS
I
INCH ST. LAWRENCE
INVER
INVERAN
J
JENKINSTOWN
JOHNSTOWN
K
KILBEGGAN
KILBRITTAIN
KILCARN
KILLALA
KILLALOE
KILLANN
KILLAVULLEN
KILLEAGH
KILLENAULE
KILLERISK
KILMACTHOMAS
KILMALLOCK
KILMEADEN
KILMINCHY
KINGSCOURT
KINNEGAD
KNOCK
KNOCKCROGHERY
L
LISDOONVARNA
LISMORE
LITTLETON
M
MANORHAMILTON
MILFORD
MILLSTREET
MOONCOIN
MOUNTBELLEW
MOUNTRATH
MOVILLE
MOYCULLEN
MULLAGH
N
NEWMARKET-ON-FERGUS
NEWPORT
NEWTOWN CUNNINGHAM O
OLDCASTLE
OMEATH
OULART
OYLGATE
P
PALLAS GREEN
PASSAGE EAST
PEDLAR'S CROSS
PORTLAW
PORTUMNA
R
RAMELTON
RAVENSDALE
RIVERSTICK
RIVERSTOWN (Tipp)
RIVERSTOWN (Sligo)
ROCHFORTBRIDGE
ROOSKEY
ROSS CARBERRY
ROSSLARE STRAND
S
SCARRIFF
SCOTSTOWN
SHANAGOLDEN
SHINRONE
SIXMILEBRIDGE
SMITHBOROUGH
SPIDDAL
STRADBALLY
STRADONE
STRAFFAN
STRANDHILL
STROKESTOWN
T
TALLOW
TAMNEY
TARA
TARBERT
TEERANEA
TINAHELY
TOBERCURRY
TOMHAGGARD
V
VIRGINIA
W
WATERGRASSHILL
WATERVILLE
WELLINGTON BRIDGE

Sponge Bob

The other providers will all use Wireless only or DSL only , the Wireless operators are Last Mile, IBB and HS Data. I have heard no horror stories about HS Data and Last Mile so their wireless solutions should be fine. As Regards IBB, God knows it maywork like a dream . The DSL only operator is BT .

zuma

I know Im being a bit of a pain Sponge Bob...but have you enable dates for the exchanges above as I have a friend living around Ballydehob and would like to know when his exchange will be enabled as he is very interested in DSL due to the speed(lack) of Dialup.

Thanks again.

Sponge Bob

I have no dates , ring the number I gave you. If they have no dates assume Oct earliest March latest.

The Real B-man

Kare Bear wrote:

What do schools need it for.

Secondary Schools = Porn

Simi

Trust me DSL is a very low priority in most irish schools. In my school (Summerhill College, Sligo) IT classes were for first years only, along with swimming. PE only goes up as far as Junior Cert and Home Economics was dropped completely from the end of this year. Not to mention a good few of the classes have to be held in an ancient building that would be condemned if it were not a school building. And lets not forget the extreme overcrowding common to all secondary schools in Towns and Cities. Schools need money not DSL.

oscarBravo

Simi wrote:

Trust me DSL is a very low priority in most irish schools. In my school (Summerhill College, Sligo) IT classes were for first years only, along with swimming.

I'm reminded - yet again - of those who asked before group water schemes what culchies wanted running water for - sure they don't even have toilets?

Simi wrote:

Schools need money not DSL.

"Towns need hospitals, not schools." <- what's wrong with this statement? On the face of it, it might appear to have some validity, since health is arguably more important than education.

But it misses the point that both health and education are important. Yes, schools need money. It's a strange leap of logic to conclude that therefore they don't need broadband.

Tom Young

While that may be the case there is a political agenda.

Ireland is a leader in the global eSchools Initiatives. GeSCI.

Thus having the leaders of the GeSCI appearing to be weaker than some new economies and under developed markets where education is a driver for connectivity is not politically expedient.

Re: eircom. It's not the most profitable exercise to undertake reduced cost services without branding to the department of education.

Some may remember that Dermot Ahern and co. published intent to levy Telcos with a Schools BB levy. In rode IBEC with a PPP - Public Private Partnership.

barrymac

Kare Bear wrote:

What do schools need it for.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/12/school_no_books/

Schools in California reckon their kids will be more up to date by getting their info online so they are ditching books entirely in favour of laptops. They reckon it saves them money too!

SparkyLarks

From the rest of the article that barry linked

"he can look at empirical evidence gathered from over 30 countries around the world, which discovered that computer use actually reduces childrens numeracy and literacy skills.

Schoolchildren were developing a "problem-solving deficit disorder", and losing the ability to analyze, the Royal Economic Society concluded.

Mind you, they were pretty nifty with the trackpad - and had picked up some k3wl Google tricks.

Of course, a computer in the classroom doesn't make a good teacher bad, and a textbook doesn't make a bad teacher effective. But try telling this to a techno utopian."

barrymac

They are of course aware of the fact that kids who rely on computers to do donkey work for them think less about the problems themselves, this research was very well publicised, but they reckon the that the advantages far outweigh this.

Of course work needs to be done on how to use computers in the class room effectively. I like their point that computers in the classroom won't make a crap teacher good or vice versa.

Well you know we could go back to scrawling on slate, that'd probably do their problem solving skills a world of good! :rolleyes:

Edit: Although this is veering off topic now, that article linked an interesting, if a bit mathematical, paper on the subject: http://www.res.org.uk/econometrics/504.pdf

To me it's all down to sensible use. My parents banned all computer games apart from edutainment type things on the Texas Instruments TI994a. I was the only kid in the class who had a computer at home and was always a fair bit ahead. The games I played got me ahead of the class in maths and grammar. I remember the most gruelling one was a time trialed times tables practicer, and believe it or not was fun to play.

Sponge Bob

Could we maybe speculate on how a country with as good 90% BB coverage according to the Fat Controller can only DSL provision less than a third of its schools and is installing VSAT instead ?

eircomtribunal

Sponge Bob wrote:

Could we maybe speculate on how a country with as good 90% BB coverage according to the Fat Controller can only DSL provision less than a third of its schools and is installing VSAT instead ?

Could it be that rather what Eircom and ComReg say, this map is still accurate?

P.

zuma

eircomtribunal wrote:

Could it be that rather what Eircom and ComReg say, this map is still accurate?

P.

A couple of extra towns/areas have been DSL enabled, but not many, so yes its still fairly accurate.

lucernarian

It won't remain accurate for too long. Eircom have already upgraded a few exchanges under the new programme - Dunleer has been upgraded for almost a month.

eircomtribunal

Fergus Cassidy's column is worth a read:

"DISH IS DAFT
The telephone network is so bad that over 1500 schools will have to use
satellite for internet access."

P.

Mr_Man

...on th epoint he makes about the lack of joined up thinking between the GBS and Schools broadband programs. Ok it would have made things a little difficult for the Civil Servants to co-ordinate the two programs, but since it was largely the same people surely something could have been worked out to enable both to compliment each other.

Now in some cases the Schools program is in danger of undermining the viability of the GBS schemes.

M.

The Real B-man

our school has two computer rooms each with 30 computers and were on 64k isdn funny our library has 2mb Dsl on only 4 pcs what a waste

bk

The Real B-man wrote:

our school has two computer rooms each with 30 computers and were on 64k isdn funny our library has 2mb Dsl on only 4 pcs what a waste

Why don't you use a wireless bridge to make the DSL connection avialable to the computers in the computer room.

Then cancel the 64k ISDN line and the money you will save will easily pay for the wireless gear.

zuma

The Real B-man wrote:

our school has two computer rooms each with 30 computers and were on 64k isdn funny our library has 2mb Dsl on only 4 pcs what a waste

60 computers sharing a 64k line!!!!.....is the school too far from the exchange for DSL??

I assume that you are talking about the town library and not the schools library??

Delphi91

zuma wrote:

60 computers sharing a 64k line!!!!.....is the school too far from the exchange for DSL??...

This was probably put in place as part of the IT2000 scheme from a few years back. Any school that was connected to the net using a 56k connection was "upgraded" top an ISDN line. Eircom supplied the line and the Gov subsidised it's use. You'll find this type of setup is quite common in a lot of schools around the country.

jwt

If as we suspect, schools who have access to BB other than Sat were given Sat the we need to find out why! Enquiring mind need to know, and if anyone knows but wants to keep a lid on it PM me or phone me.




Also either eircom covers 90,80 or 70 percent of the poulation or it doesn't.

If not is it fair to take the number of schools capable of receiving BB other than DSL and use it as a working example of current DSL coverage?


John

jbkenn

John

pm sent

jbkenn

eircomtribunal

jwt wrote:

Also either eircom covers 90,80 or 70 percent of the poulation or it doesn't.

If not is it fair to take the number of schools capable of receiving BB other than DSL and use it as a working example of current DSL coverage?


John

DSL population coverage is certainly not above a 60% level.

When Eircom speaks of a current 80% dsl "coverage"(or by March 2006 of 90% of lines "DSL enabled") Eircom is intentionally misleading, which in the case of the false 90% claim in the prospectus is a serious issue.

Lines merely originating from dls enabled exchanges, but not capable of carrying broadband signals, are not "DSL enabled" lines! I got this (anyway obvious) fact confirmed when talking to the OECD guy who deals with the OECD data collection. Only lines that are capable of actually bringing dsl to customers are dsl enabled lines. (Neither the fact that the line itself is capable to carry dsl from the exchange to the customer, nor the fact that the line originates from a dsl enabled exchange is in itself enough to make the line a dsl enabled line. Both conditions have to be in place.)

Population coverage is then again lower than line coverage.

The school broadband technology access distribution is surely an indication of current dsl coverage, but here things are more complicated. The tender process would not replicate the dsl coverage. Too many other factors come into play. For example one can assume that SMART had tendered for more dsl school connections, which they then had to change to satellite, when Eircom was allowed to throw the spanner into the LLU process again. We don't know how Eircom had tendered. Had they tendered to connect a lot of schools with dsl, but had asked for too high a price and were outdone by wireless and satellite providers on price?

P.

Capt'n Midnight

BTW: did a quick sort of the list and only about 25% of schools in Dublin are on ADSL.

eircomtribunal

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

BTW: did a quick sort of the list and only about 25% of schools in Dublin are on ADSL.

What is the approx. figure for satellite school connections in Dublin schools?
P.

zuma

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

BTW: did a quick sort of the list and only about 25% of schools in Dublin are on ADSL.

If thats not a glaring inditement of eircom's failure to provide adequate infrastructure for DSL...then I dont know what is!!!

damien

Be nice if people got the phone numbers of the schools and checked them with the online line checker.

bk

damien.m wrote:

Be nice if people got the phone numbers of the schools and checked them with the online line checker.

www.goldenpages.ie is your friend for anyone who is interested in checking.

jwt

eircomtribunal wrote:

DSL population coverage is certainly not above a 60% level.

When Eircom speaks of a current 80% dsl "coverage"(or by March 2006 of 90% of lines "DSL enabled") Eircom is intentionally misleading................

P.

Preaching to the converted comes to mind Peter, hence why I asked the question about DSL versus the rest question.

If eircom claim whatever figure McRedmond decides to use today, surely that percentage should apply roughly the same to schools????

And given that Sat is way more expensive than DSL (not to mention other limitations) and wireless isn't cheap either once you factor in installation fees surely in a tender process, which this was, DSL should win in nearly every situation where DSL is available to a school.

John

Oh and don't forget the percentage figures you quoted don't factor in that as smaller more rural exchanges ger BB enabled the percentage of lines passing on an exchange basis will decrease More grist for the mill eh?

Sponge Bob

Digital Ireland in the Indo had a big feature article on the (rather slow) rollout today.

Wait till the urban schools find out that they are to be IBB victims, skin and hair will fly I'd say

cgarvey

bk wrote:

www.goldenpages.ie is your friend for anyone who is interested in checking.

Cheers :rolleyes:

damien.m wrote:

Be nice if people got the phone numbers of the schools and checked them with the online line checker.

So it took me about 30mins to check all national schools in Clare, according to the list Golden Pages gave me.

91 schools, of which 12% could get DSL. (45% of those reported by Netsource to be on a DSL enabled exchange managed to pass)

I've attached the spreadsheet, in case anyone else wants to take another county (and use my format/calculations).
.cg

damien

cgarvey wrote:

(45% of those reported by Netsource to be on a DSL enabled exchange managed to pass)

55% failure rate for DSL "enabled" schools? That's a shocking figure in itself.

Drag00n79

Simi wrote:

Trust me DSL is a very low priority in most irish schools. In my school (Summerhill College, Sligo) IT classes were for first years only,

That is not the norm in most secondary schools.

eircomtribunal

cgarvey, that is an excellent approach.

This way jwt's suggestion of using the school bb scheme data as source for general bb/dsl availability becomes realilty.

Perhaps people will do it for other counties if you give clearer instruction how to do the list and checking?

P.

Sponge Bob

a nationwide availibilty indicator if you wills

damien

I've been chatting with Solair on this matter actually and I think he is going to volunteer to devise a plan for this. I'll cc CGarvey into the conversation too.

We have 40 people on our volunteers mailing list now so if even a few of them help out we should cover this in a short timeframe.

caff

I dont know if this matters but in these schemes the general thing is that the government gives the school the money, tells them the recommended vendor. Then the school itself can go to that vendor.. or find a better one and submit it, if their submission gets approval they can use it.. I dont think they are locked into the governments choice, worth checking up no?