Drake monument vandalised

Snickers Man

It appears that some nationalistically minded personwith a paint spray has vandalised a recently unveiled statue to Sir Francis Drake in Cork.

According to today's Irish Times the monument in Carrigaline, which was unveiled on July 1st by Micheal Martin was daubed with the slogan 'Ni Seoinini sinn go leir' (We're not all English toadies -- loose translation)

Also quoted in the story is Labour councillor Paula Desmond who decries the anti-English sentiment revealed and says 'it makes me angry to think some fossil is walking around who thinks it's 1798'

Which makes me wonder about Councillor Desmond's grasp of history. Drake lived in the 16th and early 17th centuries. He was also a pirate and murderer. His massacres of Spanish seamen and American Indians are well known, or should be. He was also centrally involved in the notorious Rathlin Massacre when the women and children of the MacDonald clan were put to the sword while their menfolk were away.

What the hell are we doing raising a statue to such a wretch?

I'm all for friendly relations with our neigbours, and indeed recognising historical events of common interest but FFS putting up statues to the likes of Drake is like asking Israelis to put up statues to the SS in memory of their military prowess.

Take it down!!!!

oscarBravo

Snickers Man wrote:

...putting up statues to the likes of Drake is like asking Israelis to put up statues to the SS in memory of their military prowess.

No, it's not. Not even a little bit.

Chalk

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=drake+centre+carrigaline&meta=cr%3DcountryIE

why dont they vandalise -
the lake
the main street
the town hall

and so on,
carrigaline have plenty of places named after drake.
surely they could have opposed the monument in the normal ways?

Snickers Man

Oh yes it is.

You want to consign Drake to history, fine.

You want to put up statues to the old bastard, you hear about the other things he did apart from circumnavigating the globe.

murphaph

I think it's just odd to be putting statues up of a sailor from another country, no? I have little time for twats like the individual that vandalised it but still think it's weird to erect in the first place. I have no problem with the statues left over since the union (it's an interesting part of our history that should be cherished).

Hobbes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Drake

Maybe the spanish vandalised it? Not sure what drake has to do with Cork.

Snickers Man

murphaph wrote:

I think it's just odd to be putting statues up of a sailor from another country, no? I have little time for twats like the individual that vandalised it but still think it's weird to erect in the first place. I have no problem with the statues left over since the union (it's an interesting part of our history that should be cherished).

I quite agree. Largely. But this statue went up this year. This month in fact.

I'm all in favour of leaving statues to the Duke of Wellington in Trim, for example. He did after all represent the town as a member of parliament. And for leaving street names in Carrigaline named to commemorate Francis Drake because apparently he has some historical connection to the town (albeit slight).

But putting up statues to him at this point in time and pretending that he was a really great guy and that we all should remember his wonderful seafaring exploits is just crass. Especially when you think of the other things he did in this country. Like the Rathlin Island massacre.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Moriarty

From what I've read about him, I wouldn't have a problem with a statue of him being put up somewhere. Privateering and the like were par for the course in those days. I'd like to know why somone did put one up though

D-Generate

Tourist site? Money?
One should see the amount of people who pose next to a statue of Charlie Chaplin down in Waterville in Co. Kerry. Incredible at times!

simu

D-Generate wrote:

Tourist site? Money?
One should see the amount of people who pose next to a statue of Charlie Chaplin down in Waterville in Co. Kerry. Incredible at times!

Chaplin is a far more popular and well-liked figure in the minds of the public, though. I'd see the Drake statue as a expression of anglophilia or even an attempt at grabbing some of the lustre of the history of the British Empire. An odd choice all the same.

mike65

I'd say Drake is more likely to me laugh.....

As for the vadalism - small minds - small minded acts.

Mike.

KnowItAll

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

A pathetic excuse for putting up a statue nobody wants (at least those who know a bit of history).

Hobbes

D-Generate wrote:

Tourist site? Money?
One should see the amount of people who pose next to a statue of Charlie Chaplin down in Waterville in Co. Kerry. Incredible at times!

How many Spanish tourists/students do you think are going to pose near Drake?

Benedict XVI

I too am not sure of the reasons for putting up a statue to a hero of the British Empire.
There are many statues of the likes of Wellington, Nelosn etc dotted around the country but they were erected by the British ruling classes of the 19th century. Leave them there as a reminder of our past as part of the British Empire but seeing as we have been out of it for 80+ years it's time to stick to putting up statues of our own historical figures wheter they be soliders, writers, politicans etc.

I agree with the point by simu that this is

an attempt at grabbing some of the lustre of the history of the British Empire

That is something we don't need.

Metacortex

This is all so stupid.
That monument is right next to where i live, i can see it out the window.

Its not even to commerate Drake, it has more to do with commerating the ships that sailed down the river, hence the reason the statue is of a sail.
Im not entirely sure why it even shares the name with Drake, i would have to read up on it more but as i said its main reason is for the river and the ships that sailed through it

D-Generate

Hobbes wrote:

How many Spanish tourists/students do you think are going to pose near Drake?

None but I think its pretty obvious that he is more of an appeal to the British tourists since he was British and since tourists from Britain come here in greater numbers than the Spanish tourists/students.
I doubt the majority of Spanish even know who Drake is. He has not made as great an impact on their society as he has on the British society.

I can't say I have anything against erecting a statue to it. Its a historic site and if you are to not erect one to that then perhaps we should take away all referance to the Battle of Kinsale in which the British were victorious and any other sites that are reminders that a historic event took place in which the outcome was in the favour of the British.
A lot of money is to be made with Charles Fort down in Kinsale and I don't see people giving out about how the inhabitants inflicted misery on the general populice.

MT

The erection of this statue is a blatant act of West-British aggression. The man was an evil British bastard and must have oppressed somebody. Indeed, his statue now mocks the Irish nation while his descendants continue to oppress our people in the North. I shall be writing to the areas local Sinn Fein councillor to convey my deep offence at this show of cultural imperialism.

They can build their statues but they’ll never take our freedom…



On a serious note, I find the whole row surrounding this statue ridiculous. Firstly, the entirely anachronistic judgement of Drake’s conduct 400 years ago by the standards of the 21st century is ludicrous. I doubt there’s a single national hero from such barbaric times that wouldn’t be judged a monster by today’s sensibilities. Then there’s the false concern for the Spanish as if they’d never produced the odd blood drenched explorer. Clearly, the nation that produced the conquistadors and their empire of blood and gold would be horrified at this statue of Drake. Finally, there’s the tacit agreement not to call this ‘debate’ for what it really is. Another example of the desire by too many Irish people to be offended at all things English.

Had this been an icon from almost any other nation’s past it would have never been noticed. Drake – and latterly his 16th century crimes – has been leapt upon because he was English, or British to some no doubt. Sadly, it seems the character that did this still feels Irishness is defined by Anglo-phobia. I, on the other hand, find myself at odds with such sensitivity towards the English. To me Drake is just another historical figure from another country. I have no particular need to see him publicly remembered but equally when his statue has gone up I’ve no desire to see it condemned or attacked. In short, I’m indifferent – as I would be to a statue of some other long dead national icon.

For me, England is just another country: for too many Irish people it’s a negative obsession.

Hobbes

D-Generate wrote:

I doubt the majority of Spanish even know who Drake is.

Actually he is well known in Spain as a war criminal. Which is why I metioned it is more likely for a Spanish to damage it then an Irish person.

A Dub in Glasgo

MT wrote:

In short, I’m indifferent – as I would be to a statue of some other long dead national icon.

Your view of a statue of Pearse would be? Better still, what about a statue of Pearse in London? Connolly statue in Edinburgh?

county

no theres enough fenians in britain

D-Generate

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Your view of a statue of Pearse would be? Better still, what about a statue of Pearse in London? Connolly statue in Edinburgh?

Completely different things altogether. Has there ever been a historic event with Pearse in London other than him just visiting some time?

As for Connolly, I think you will find that there is a march in Edinburgh each June to commemorate him. This march is also large, not just some silly walk by Socialist Workers Party.
Of course you find ignorant people there (BNP), just like the ignorant people who attacked Drakes monument with the perverted mindset that attacking another culture makes them somewhat patriotic.

Raskolnikov

MT wrote:

I shall be writing to the areas local Sinn Fein councillor to convey my deep offence at this show of cultural imperialism.

There is no Sinn Féin councillor for Carrigaline, anyway, what have they got to do with this?

D-Generate

Raskolnikov wrote:

There is no Sinn Féin councillor for Carrigaline, anyway, what have they got to do with this?

MT's first paragraph was a joke mocking those who are against the British in any form, even monument form, which is quite an achievement to be that hateful of them!

Snickers Man

MT wrote:

On a serious note, I find the whole row surrounding this statue ridiculous. Firstly, the entirely anachronistic judgement of Drake’s conduct 400 years ago by the standards of the 21st century is ludicrous. I doubt there’s a single national hero from such barbaric times that wouldn’t be judged a monster by today’s sensibilities.

Really? Do you think in a few hundred years time some avaition enthusiast in Britain is likely to put up a statue to Herman Goering in a village in Kent, say,to commemorate his pioneering work in aviation?

And when somebody points out: 'hey just a minute? Isn't that the bastard who organised the Blitz on London, deliberately targetting civilians in an attempt to terrorise the British into submission?', do you really think some trendy is going to point out:
'Ah well. It was the 20th century and they were all barbarians then. One side was as bad as the other. Look what the RAF and USAAF did to Dresden just 10 weeks before the end of the war. By comparison, London got off very lightly and now that we're all happy Europeans, let's commemorate this giant (in more ways than one) of the early years of aviation by sticking up a statue to him and hey, we might get a few tourists as well.'

Could happen.

MT wrote:

Finally, there’s the tacit agreement not to call this ‘debate’ for what it really is. Another example of the desire by too many Irish people to be offended at all things English.

Had this been an icon from almost any other nation’s past it would have never been noticed. Drake – and latterly his 16th century crimes – has been leapt upon because he was English, or British to some no doubt. Sadly, it seems the character that did this still feels Irishness is defined by Anglo-phobia.

As the 'character' who started this thread I resent your remarks and suggest that you have no evidence to make that claim. If you're asking do I hold bitterness in my heart towards the English for what Drake did in Rathlin Island in 1575, where nearly 600 people, most of them defenceless civilians, were massacred because of their family connection to a chieftain who was nowhere near the place at the time, then the answer is: of course not. It was a long time ago. Things have moved on.

But there is a serious issue here. How do you commemorate people from the past? And to what extent is it appropriate to edit out some items from their record in order to glorify other events? I would suggest that holding up Drake as an icon to sturdy independent English endeavour, while conveniently forgetting about his baser exploits is a gross insult, especially in the land where one of the worst examples of those exploits happened.

That's all.

Snickers Man

D-Generate wrote:

Completely different things altogether. Has there ever been a historic event with Pearse in London other than him just visiting some time?

As for Connolly, I think you will find that there is a march in Edinburgh each June to commemorate him.

Well he was born there. And his legacy as a socialist transcends national issues.

Also, what massacre of civilians did he ever participate in?

pdh

It’s about time we got up off our knees and obliterated any British presence in Ireland

zenith

pdh wrote:

It’s about time we got up off our knees and obliterated any British presence in Ireland

When you're finished your 'cleaning' job, I'm afraid that you'll pretty much discover that you'll be all the way down to the bedrock. So, give up: learn to play the fiddle, or something. Much more productive.

vector

Is the monument an actual statue
I mean like this sort of thing http://sirfrancisdrakehistory.net/Yelverton/1_statue_drake.jpg

or is it just some modern symbol like a vertical piece of metal with a plaque?

and where in carrigaline is it?

edit:
as I understand it
it isin't a statue it is a sail with a plaque
further, it is located just by the river that leads into drake's pool

again let me repeat it is not a statue (ie not a human body made of bronze)
it is just a piece of art

magpie

Actually he is well known in Spain as a war criminal

They're just sore over the time he sailed into Cadiz harbour and sank 20 warships in 1587 - which incidentally they were planning on using to invade England, not to visit Kinsale, learn English and go to a couple of nice restaurants.

People in Ireland need to come to terms with the fact that pre 1922 Ireland was a part of the United Kingdom, and that we share a lot of history:

Some negative, much positive, much neutral. If we can put up a statue to someone whose contribution to society/world history is as miniscule as arch-junkie Phil Lynott then I fail to see what the problem with having a statue to El Draco is.

Better than having one to C J Haughey anyway.

hill16

Erecting this statue is just another way for the West Brits in Ireland to show their true colours.

hill16

hill16 wrote:

Erecting this statue is just another way for the West Brits in Ireland to show their true colours.

And tell me does this fundamentalist opinion extend to everything British for you?
You'd burn everything british except their coal/oil/gas would you?

Snickers Man

magpie wrote:

They're just sore over the time he sailed into Cadiz harbour and sank 20 warships in 1587

Not to mention the years he spent plundering Spanish trading ships for his own personal enrichment. With the active encouragement of his government of course.

magpie wrote:

People in Ireland need to come to terms with the fact that pre 1922 Ireland was a part of the United Kingdom, and that we share a lot of history:

Well that's precisely the point. We ALL share history. Where we differ from place to place, people to people, religion to religion is on how we interpret and remember it. With history, as in art, what you leave out is often more important than what you put in.

The British want to remember Drake as a defender of their realm from Spanish agression. Fair enough. In defence of that realm, and indeed in the cause of its aggrandisement, he wrought havoc on a lot of innocent people elsewhere, not least in Ireland. An early example, perhaps, of the doctrine of 'fighting the enemy abroad so we don't have to fight him at home'.

This involved the wholesale massacre of innocent civilians, which even by the standards of the 16th century were barbaric. To omit that central fact from any commemoration of Drake in this country is simply idiotic.

magpie wrote:

If we can put up a statue to someone whose contribution to society/world history is as miniscule as arch-junkie Phil Lynott then I fail to see what the problem with having a statue to El Draco is.

Well now you've gone way too far. We can argue anbout Drake but you don't insult the great Phillo, all right. Pistols or swords, sir?

magpie

Not to mention the years he spent plundering Spanish trading ships for his own personal enrichment. With the active encouragement of his government of course.

Of course, Spanish trading ships. Not the ones laden down with gold plundered at gunpoint from the Aztecs then? (and don't worry, I don't have much sympathy for them either as they were wantonly barbaric and cruel even by the standards of their day).

To paint Drake as a self-serving Privateer, or Pirate if you will is of course 100% accurate; to paint the Spanish as any less aggressive, self-serving or brutal is disingenuous at best. Therefore its spectacularly hypocritical on their behalf to regard Drake as a 'criminal' while their Conquistador activities in South America coupled with their plans to foist a Catholic on the throne of a resolutely Protestant England through the expedient of enforcing their wishes through military force are viewed as being in some way 'innocent'. Please... The Spanish had the most bloodthirsty domineering empire in the world. Ask the Dutch about it.

Just be thankful none of us live in the 16th Century!

you don't insult the great Phillo, all right. Pistols or swords, sir?

Bass guitars at dawn sirrah!

gandalf

LOL I can almost see some of the lads on this thread going "What have the Brits ever done for us...."

Yes I agree erecting the statue of a English Hero is a bit strange but then again I don't know the local significance of it as well, if there is a strong link and local people don't mind then fair enough. Its a bit sad and cowardly to daub graffiti on the statue though if you have an objection to it then complain to the council/authorities about it.

Oh if it was a Spanaird who objected surely they would have written it in Spanish

vector

gandalf wrote:

LOL I can almost see some of the lads on this thread going "What have the Brits ever done for us...."

Yes I agree erecting the statue of a English Hero is a bit strange...

IT IS NOT A STATUE
it is a piece of art type thing shaped like a sail

gandalf

LOL didn't realise it was a piece of modern art. Anyone have a piccie of this at all ?

mike65

Its seem the whole thing is based on a tall tale which is used simply as a marketing ploy for Crosshaven.

Mike.

magpie

Its seem the whole thing is based on a tall tale which is used simply as a marketing ploy for Crosshaven.

Why is it that all the people who view this as a tall tale / a disgrace have names like 'Diarmuid O Murchada' rather than Dermot Murphy? :rolleyes: I wonder?

What's that sound like a Chicken?

Chuck-chuck-chuck-chuckiiiieee

Here's the God-awful history of Rathlin Island that the Shinners have such a bee in their bonnet with Drake about. You'll note its a long series of massacres one after the other from about 4500 bc until the 17th Century, not all by any means enacted by the evil agents of perfidious albion. You'll spot some good 'Ol Ulstermen getting stuck in with characteristic aplomb.

vector

"marketing" disn't exist when the name first came into use
anyhow Carrigaline isin't a tourist town so the historical angle is not bankable
and Crosshaven can only use it as a sidebar because the pool is on the road to Crosshaven and not in Crosshaven proper.

MIKO ICHI BAN

The graffiti bandit was referring to people (Shoneens) who would be the hangers on to the British, the fawners, the West Brits, the acquired accented lot of Cork who instead of erecting a Statue/Monument to local seafarers or to Spanish Armada heroes would prefer to spend their collected money on a foreign hero, who facilitated and abetted the colonisation and destruction of their own country's way of life, heritage and culture. They are the Shoneens, the people who celebrate the ones who would have besieged your walled city in the middle ages, the Quislings who assisted the pacification of Denmark, Norway during WW2, the self-haters who would turn their coats to lick up to the enemy.
Only in Cork do you find an affected accent which develops in the estuary area mimicking their sense of a 'higher class of person' and which unexpectedly is an anglicised nasal sounding accent. it must be so embarassing to English people of the 21st century to listen to.

RandomName2

MIKO ICHI BAN wrote: »

to Spanish Armada heroes

:eek:

Are you serious?

Philip II attempts to topple the weak English kingdom which lies ripe for the taking after Elizabeth's excommunication. He is quite prepared to absorb Ireland into the Hapsburg Empire as a means to an end.

Of course the Spanish Armada had little to do with Ireland - besides getting shipwrecked. You might be mixing up that Spanish expedition with the other one which resulted in the Battle of Kinsale. Despite the explicit demands of Hugh O'Neill the Spanish landed in Cork without the numbers to make a difference. Hugh O Neill marched south to save them, leaving himself vulnerable (because he would have to fight a conventional battle). Hugh O Neill lost the battle (which the Spanish didn't know about until after the event) and then the Spanish surrendered.

Although why there would be a statue to Drake there is a bit beyond me. Walter Raleigh perhaps...

charlemont

When that filth was erected there were a lot of people who wanted to destroy it, As for Shoneens, Boards.ie is full of them, We cant even be proud of our own history without being accused of living in the past.

nesf

Ancient thread is ancient.