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Naturism and Irish beaches

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    #182
    Hazlittle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 210 ✭✭Hazlittle


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Meant in the social section which I can just set up in a click on a button. Just dont to be banned if they think the idea is too obscene. This is conservative Ireland.
    prinz wrote: »
    As do I. Don't want me to kill you? Stay at home and watch American Idol :rolleyes:

    No its not the same. Being naked and murdering people isnt the samething. Me nude doesnt take from your personal freedom but murdering does.


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    #183
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Hazlittle wrote: »
    Me nude doesnt take from your personal freedom but murdering does.

    Not my life, just my personal freedom to venture outside my home is it? :rolleyes:


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    #184
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,894 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Unless a group of people decide to all get naked one day and surround your home, I doubt that is going to happen. Some people are terrified of dogs. That doesn't mean they're not free to leave their homes in case they encounter a dog.


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    #185
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Stark wrote: »
    Some people are terrified of dogs. That doesn't mean they're not free to leave their homes in case they encounter a dog.

    I was referring specifically to the "this is my island I'll do what I want" aspect. Clearly this isn't the case.


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    #186
    Brit.Naturism
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭Brit.Naturism


    prinz wrote: »
    Not my life, just my personal freedom to venture outside my home is it? :rolleyes:
    I take it you are a naturist who would like to have the freedom to leave your home?

    You see, it cuts both ways.

    I do not restrict your freedom, please don't restrict mine.


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    #187
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Brit.Naturism wrote: »
    I take it you are a naturist who would like to have the freedom to leave your home? You see, it cuts both ways..

    There are lot's of things we can't do outside our own home. It has no bearing whatsoever on restricting freedoms.
    Brit.Naturism wrote: »
    I do not restrict your freedom, please don't restrict mine.

    If I had to come face to face with you then yeah you would be restricting my freedom not to see you naked. Like I said, I have no problem with naturist desginated spots, but to suggest you should be free to go where you like and do what you like is groundless.


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    #188
    Hazlittle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 210 ✭✭Hazlittle


    prinz wrote: »
    I was referring specifically to the "this is my island I'll do what I want" aspect. Clearly this isn't the case.

    We use common law and as back up system we have Brehon law. So if we removed all the legislation tomorrow we would still have tort law. So people could still do what they but if you could prove that action damages you physically you can sue.
    prinz wrote: »
    Not my life, just my personal freedom to venture outside my home is it? :rolleyes:

    You can come outside, you just cant enforce a dress code on everyone else.
    prinz wrote: »
    There are lot's of things we can't do outside our own home. It has no bearing whatsoever on restricting freedoms.



    If I had to come face to face with you then yeah you would be restricting my freedom not to see you naked. Like I said, I have no problem with naturist desginated spots, but to suggest you should be free to go where you like and do what you like is groundless.


    For the same reason we shouldnt ban track suit bottoms or the veil, we should ban public nudity. Adults can do what they want. If you want to be conservative, be conservative on your own property.


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    #189
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Hazlittle wrote: »
    If you want to be conservative naked, be conservative naked on your own property.

    See how easy that is.


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    #190
    Hazlittle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 210 ✭✭Hazlittle


    prinz wrote: »
    See how easy that is.

    Its not ideological war. Your're the one commanding me to do something I dont want to. I'm not telling you to do anything. I was not born to be commanded by no man, organisation or state. It is my island and I shall do what I please.


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    #191
    Brit.Naturism
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭Brit.Naturism


    prinz wrote: »
    There are lot's of things we can't do outside our own home. It has no bearing whatsoever on restricting freedoms.


    If I had to come face to face with you then yeah you would be restricting my freedom not to see you naked. Like I said, I have no problem with naturist desginated spots, but to suggest you should be free to go where you like and do what you like is groundless.
    You want a freedom to not do something? That's different!

    Can I object to your style of dress and then expect the freedom to not see you wearing it? Of course not.

    It seems to me that unless someone exactly matches your idea of what is right, you want the right to ban them. That simply isn't how any civilised society works.
    prinz wrote: »
    If you want to be conservative naked, be conservative naked on your own property.
    See how easy that is.
    You have proved my point about how it cuts both ways, which is the point you had clearly missed when 'Hazlittle' made the original of this statement.


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    #192
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Brit.Naturism wrote: »
    You want a freedom to not do something? That's different!

    Er no. I want to maintain the rights I already have. You are looking for a freedom, I'm not. You want a freedom fine, like I said I have no problem with designated areas.
    Brit.Naturism wrote: »
    Can I object to your style of dress and then expect the freedom to not see you wearing it? Of course not.

    Be my guest, object away. You can expect the freedom if you can legislate for it.
    Brit.Naturism wrote: »
    It seems to me that unless someone exactly matches your idea of what is right, you want the right to ban them. That simply isn't how any civilised society works.

    I haven't sought the right to ban anything here. Ireland has no designated naturist zones, I would have no problem that being changed to make certain beaches naturist only/friendly etc. I am supporting your quest for that freedom. How does that equate to banning anything or infringing on a freedom?
    Brit.Naturism wrote: »
    You have proved my point about how it cuts both ways, which is the point you had clearly missed when 'Hazlittle' made the original of this statement.

    Hazlittle seems to have a very particular view of the world.


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    #193
    Brit.Naturism
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭Brit.Naturism


    Perhaps we are closer to agreement than it seems.

    It was your:
    prinz wrote: »
    As do I. Don't want me to kill you? Stay at home and watch American Idol :rolleyes:
    that took me by surprise. Who had said anything about killing anyone prior to this?

    So I felt I should support Hazlittle over the following exchange:
    Hazlittle wrote: »
    No its not the same. Being naked and murdering people isnt the samething. Me nude doesnt take from your personal freedom but murdering does.
    prinz wrote: »
    Not my life, just my personal freedom to venture outside my home is it? :rolleyes:
    You seemed to be claiming that some else's dress code (or in this case undress code) would limit your freedom to leave your own home, which is clearly ridiculous. The dogs analogy in another post is a good one.
    prinz wrote: »
    I wouldn't care about desginated beaches or areas but it should not be the norm or applicable everywhere, and no it has nothing to do with being ashamed or repressed or anything else. My wife comes from a country where naturism would be a lot more organised and accepted and one of the reasons she likes it here is because she can go to the sauna etc and not have to deal with it. She has gone to naturist sites and found them to be incredibly sleazy.
    This is where we seem to have some agreement, although I wonder where these naturist sites where that could put off someone willing to try them. They do not sound like any that I have been to and I would like to think that you, or she, were just unlucky.

    Countries like Germany have areas of city parks where naked sunbathing is allowed. They also have much lower rates of teenage pregnancy, etc. as I stated in my original post in this topic. I and most naturists believe that it would be a positive step for society if such freedoms were allowed.
    prinz wrote: »
    Be my guest, object away. You can expect the freedom if you can legislate for it.
    We have that freedom in the UK, but I wouldn't presume to abuse it by going to my local supermarket naked. So I guess we agree.
    prinz wrote: »
    I haven't sought the right to ban anything here. Ireland has no designated naturist zones, I would have no problem that being changed to make certain beaches naturist only/friendly etc. I am supporting your quest for that freedom. How does that equate to banning anything or infringing on a freedom?
    Ok, as I said, perhaps we are closer to agreement than it seemed.
    prinz wrote: »
    Hazlittle seems to have a very particular view of the world.
    Agreed. I take particular exception to the statement:

    "It is my island and I shall do what I please."

    I don't think anyone has that level of freedom!


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    #194
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Brit.Naturism wrote: »
    It was your:
    that took me by surprise. Who had said anything about killing anyone prior to this?

    It was more tongue in cheek than anything. Like if you don't like what I get up to stay at home. Our society just doesn't work that way.
    Brit.Naturism wrote: »
    This is where we seem to have some agreement, although I wonder where these naturist sites where that could put off someone willing to try them. They do not sound like any that I have been to and I would like to think that you, or she, were just unlucky.

    Germany, somewhere up the Baltic Sea coastline if I remember correctly. She's German and has been to a few FKK sites. She tried it, was made to feel deeply uncomfortable a number of times and swore off it. Over here she likes the fact that she can go to the sauna etc in the knowledge that people are going to be covered somewhat.
    Brit.Naturism wrote: »
    Ok, as I said, perhaps we are closer to agreement than it seemed.

    Yep.
    Brit.Naturism wrote: »
    Agreed. I take particular exception to the statement: "It is my island and I shall do what I please."
    I don't think anyone has that level of freedom!

    :pac:.


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    #195
    Elle Collins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 681 ✭✭✭Elle Collins


    Brit.Naturism wrote: »
    I do not restrict your freedom, please don't restrict mine.

    I have to disagree with this statement. Brit.Naturism, if you are suggesting that an aspect of your freedom includes walking/sitting/lying naked wheresoever you choose then yes, you are seeking to restrict the freedom of a lot of people. That would be the freedom to visit beaches, parks etc without having to put up with the offensive sight of people exposing themselves publicly.

    I have said several times on this thread that I feel if nudists want areas where they can expose themselves that's fine by me. As long as nudists do not restrict my right to peace of mind they can build themselves nudie carnivals and freeze their goolies off on the big wheel for all I care. Seriously though, they should be accomodated and the places where they are accomodated should be clearly marked for the benefit of those who want to avoid them.

    One question though: I seriously wonder why the term 'nudist' has been rejected by nudists themselves???


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    #196
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,019 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Elle Collins wrote: »
    I have to disagree with this statement. Brit.Naturism, if you are suggesting that an aspect of your freedom includes walking/sitting/lying naked wheresoever you choose then yes, you are seeking to restrict the freedom of a lot of people. That would be the freedom to visit beaches, parks etc without having to put up with the offensive sight of people exposing themselves publicly.

    I think you'll find that this is not what naturists want. I'd be curious to know what made you think it was?
    I have said several times on this thread that I feel if nudists want areas where they can expose themselves that's fine by me. As long as nudists do not restrict my right to peace of mind they can build themselves nudie carnivals and freeze their goolies off on the big wheel for all I care. Seriously though, they should be accomodated and the places where they are accomodated should be clearly marked for the benefit of those who want to avoid them.

    This is exactly what natursits want. That and a little bit less condescention and immaturity when discussing the topic.
    One question though: I seriously wonder why the term 'nudist' has been rejected by nudists themselves???

    Didn't know they did - would be interested to know why myself.

    My understanding was that "Nudist" is an American term, whereas "Naturist" is an English one.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #197
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    I think you'll find that this is not what naturists want. I'd be curious to know what made you think it was?

    I'm going to guess it was comments like this...
    Hazlittle wrote: »
    I was not born to be commanded by no man, organisation or state. It is my island and I shall do what I please.
    Hazlittle wrote: »
    Adults can do what they want. If you want to be conservative, be conservative on your own property.
    Hazlittle wrote: »
    In my view all beeches should be nude friendly and then have special beeches for the clothed.

    You're right a bit of maturity wouldn't wouldn't go astray.;)


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    #198
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,019 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    prinz wrote: »
    You're right a bit of maturity wouldn't wouldn't go astray.;)

    Oh, absolutely - on both sides, don't get me wrong. I was thinking along the lines of those quoted here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66062115&postcount=170

    Admittedly, my responce was a bit strong, but you get the gist.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #199
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Oh, absolutely - on both sides, don't get me wrong. I was thinking along the lines of those quoted here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66062115&postcount=170

    :pac: It does have comedy value though.


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    #200
    Brit.Naturism
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭Brit.Naturism


    Elle Collins wrote: »
    I have to disagree with this statement. Brit.Naturism, if you are suggesting that an aspect of your freedom includes walking/sitting/lying naked wheresoever you choose then yes, you are seeking to restrict the freedom of a lot of people. That would be the freedom to visit beaches, parks etc without having to put up with the offensive sight of people exposing themselves publicly.
    I am sorry you find the sight of a human body offensive. Your parents clearly did a good job of teaching you to think this, which is a shame when you consider that you possess one yourself, just like everyone else in this world. To quote Michelangelo:
    Michelangelo
    "What spirit is so empty and blind, that it cannot recognise the fact that the foot is more noble than the shoe, and skin more beautiful than the garment with which it is clothed?"
    Another quote I have kept, but sadly failed to record the source is:
    "Nudity is neither immoral nor immodest. Morality and modesty are matters of behaviour and intention. Nudity is not harmful to life, limb, property or mental state. Nor does nudity infringe on anyone’s rights. If one finds nudity offensive then it is that person’s doing, not the one who is nude. There is no right to not be offended. To be offended is a personal choice. No one can offend you without your permission."
    Again the source is sadly unknown, but I quite like:
    "Clothing and even shoes convey messages that the body alone cannot. You can't be naked like a tart, you can't be naked to kill, you can't naked up posh and you can't look like mutton naked as lamb."
    This is a big part of what naturism is about - social levelling.

    Enough of my quotes (I have plenty!). To answer your question (as best I can):
    Elle Collins wrote: »
    One question though: I seriously wonder why the term 'nudist' has been rejected by nudists themselves???
    As stated by "Ikky Poo2", there is a tendency for Americans to use the term 'nudist' and the English to use 'naturist'. There is some debate amongst naturists here in the UK as to what the difference is, some say there isn't a difference, but some, like myself, believe that the term naturist carries with it an automatic assumption that the activity is non-sexual in nature. If I refer to nudity in the context of naturism I often feel I have to qualify it by referring to it as "non-sexual nudity". I also believe that naturism covers much more than just nudity; it includes mutual and self respect as well as a respect for nature. It is also a term that we have inherited from the past.

    What does annoy us is when 'naturist' is used by organisations to disguise their true intentions. We sometimes find swingers' clubs masquerading as naturist clubs, presumably because they are ashamed of what they truly are. Unfortunately there is nothing we can do about this, other than refuse such organisations membership of BN. They still damage the image of naturism though...


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    #201
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,894 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    you can't be naked to kill

    Oh I disagree

    155113__psycho_l.jpg


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    #202
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Brit.Naturism wrote: »
    I am sorry you find the sight of a human body offensive. Your parents clearly did a good job of teaching you to think this, which is a shame when you consider that you possess one yourself, just like everyone else in this world....

    You do realise that just because I/someone else don't particularly want to see you or others naked that doesn't mean I/they find the human body offensive nor anything of the sort?

    We've all got to defacate too, it's a normal bodily function, but I'd say the majority of people would rather go to a beach safe in the knowledge that there wouldn't be someone doing that beside them. Time and a place!

    This kind of self-flaggelation, that everyone is wrong, close minded and find nudity shameful except you and your oppressed ilk doesn't really help your cause tbh. People are different. Not everyone thinks like you do.


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    #203
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    For people disgusted or offended by the sight of the human body in its natural state, you would have to wonder - is there an element of 'self-loathing' in it?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-loathing


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    #204
    Pace2008
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭Pace2008


    [QUOTE=Brit.Naturism;66108020[/QUOTE]

    What does annoy us is when 'naturist' is used by organisations to disguise [/QUOTE] To be honest I have a bit of a problem with the term "naturist" in general. It's a disingenuous euphemism that plays off the specious notion that natural necessarily equals good. I think nudist is a better title to describe the lifestyle.
    I also believe that naturism covers much more than just nudity; it includes mutual and self respect as well as a respect for nature
    I don't see link between going around with your kit off and respecting nature.


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    #205
    Pace2008
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭Pace2008


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    This is exactly what natursits want. That and a little bit less condescention and immaturity when discussing the topic.
    Where's the problem then? Every single poster arguing "against" you has agreed that this is a fair compromise.


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    #206
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,019 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Pace2008 wrote: »
    Where's the problem then? Every single poster arguing "against" you has agreed that this is a fair compromise.

    I think the misconception is that nudists want the right to be naked everywhere. Those in the con camp rather than pro will be able to give a more accurate answer, though.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #207
    fatpizzaman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭fatpizzaman


    Segregation of nudists and naturists is a form of racism and apartheid. See this site for more information: http://stop-racist-human-skin-phobia.org

    People who don't like seeing nude bodies have deep-seated mental and emotional problems within themselves that was instilled in them at an early age and have not been able to dispel as they get older. I'd like to see it illegal for society to teach children that nudity is 'bad', 'lewd', 'naughty' etc and teach that clothes are only needed for warmth and protection. Other reasons are superfluous.

    Why shouldn't nudists be allowed to co-exist with the rest of society? It's not like they are hardened criminals or terrorists. A case in point: British activist Steven Gough has been jailed in Scotland several times since 2003 all because he wants the right to hike nude across Britain without any ulterior motives. It's wasting the taxpayers money. Leave him to do what he wants, he's not directly harming anyone in the process.

    If we lived in a society where nudity is legal and condoned everywhere, we would be having far less sex crimes and teenage pregnancies than we currently do in our Anglicised cultures. Works for the Europeans, so why can't we do the same? They are just as human as the rest of us.


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    #208
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    fatpizzaman wrote: »
    If we lived in a society where nudity is legal and condoned everywhere, we would be having far less sex crimes and teenage pregnancies than we currently do in our Anglicised cultures. Works for the Europeans, so why can't we do the same? They are just as human as the rest of us.
    While I support a loosening (ahem) of the laws in relation to nudity on beaches, I'm not sure that more nudity would result in less rape or teenage pregnancy. Do you have any studies to support such a claim?


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    #209
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    fatpizzaman wrote: »
    People who don't like seeing nude bodies have deep-seated mental and emotional problems within themselves that was instilled in them at an early age and have not been able to dispel as they get older.

    How about we stop repeating this kind of nonsense for a start. That's your opinion firstly. Secondly I spend a lot of time on the continent and nudity is not legal nor condoned everywhere.


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    #210
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,019 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    prinz wrote: »
    How about we stop repeating this kind of nonsense for a start. That's your opinion firstly. Secondly I spend a lot of time on the continent and nudity is not legal nor condoned everywhere.

    It is in Berlin. I've photographed nude and bodypainted women in the streets here and no-one batted an eyelid. In Denmark, there's no rule saying you MUST wear a swimsuit on the beach. Sweden doesn't have the same law, but is very tolerant of nudity.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #211
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    It is in Berlin. I've photographed nude and bodypainted women in the streets here and no-one batted an eyelid. In Denmark, there's no rule saying you MUST wear a swimsuit on the beach. Sweden doesn't have the same law, but is very tolerant of nudity.

    Yes. I am well aware it is condoned and legal in some places but not everywhere. Pus the rules and laws in different places can very topless sunbathing is accepted in a lot of areas whereas totally nude is not etc. It's an extreme over-simplification to say naturism is legal and condoned everywhere in Europe.


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