War of independence, Munster region

ancienthistory

Hi all. Anyone have a particular interest in the Southern incidents during our war of independence?

tim3115

I have an interest but do not know of many. Have you any stories yourself?

ancienthistory

Here's a good one to kick off a discussion www.knocklong-rescue.com

whippet

I just came across this, my interest is more to do with the civil war time,

I have a growing interest in the incident that took place with a trap mine at ballyseedy near tralee, I have recently stopped at the monument and have heard some stories but all really hear say.

has anyone got any links to decent resources or where I could find out more

The Lopper

There was an ambush very near me, Dromkeen Ambush, i had a huge piece on it copied from Newspapers and various accounts, i'll have to find it agian.

ancienthistory

whippet wrote:

I just came across this, my interest is more to do with the civil war time,

I have a growing interest in the incident that took place with a trap mine at ballyseedy near tralee, I have recently stopped at the monument and have heard some stories but all really hear say.

has anyone got any links to decent resources or where I could find out more

Know the one you mean but not to hot on Kerry civil war. It seems it was revenge for a previous ambush and yes it did happen. Sorry can't be more help.

Dromkeen was a joint operation between Tipperary and Barry's column. Yes was big!

Cork Boy

The anti treaty side ambushed the free staters in Knocknagoshel by creating an arms dums which was booby trapped.
They then sent false info to the free state army in Castleisland who checked it out and were blown up.
Two weeks later, the castleisland barracks were holding bout eight anti treaty fighters and got tehm up in the middle of the night to clear a road block.
They then tied the anti treaty men to the roadblock which was full of mines and blew them up.
One man was blown into the river where he made his escape. About a decade ago, he recorded an interview about it for RTE on condition it wouldn't be shown before his death. The interview and reconstructions were aired about 6 years ago. The documentary was called "Ballyseedy".
No monument lies where the free state army were ambushed.

Ps, I am not trying to take any sides. Atrocities were inflicted by both sides, civil wars are never exactly valiant or glorious.

supersheep

The same thing happened at Countess Bridge in Killarney, almost at the same time on March 7th 1923. Five prisoners were taken out to clear a barricade. Their guards cocked their rifles so they hopped over the fence for cover. Instead, there was a mine there. Once again, one man escaped. After this, the Free Staters took precautions, and shot their prisoners in the legs before they blew them up.
For a general history of the Civil War, try Eoin Neeson's "The Civil War 1922-23", it's pretty damn good. Thanks to it I got a perfect mark on my Irish history essay in the Leaving, so obviously I love it...

klong

ancienthistory wrote:

Dromkeen was a joint operation between Tipperary and Barry's column. Yes was big!

I haven't heard of this one- any details?

Mick86

whippet wrote:

I just came across this, my interest is more to do with the civil war time,

I have a growing interest in the incident that took place with a trap mine at ballyseedy near tralee, I have recently stopped at the monument and have heard some stories but all really hear say.

has anyone got any links to decent resources or where I could find out more

There was another similar incident the same day. I'll have to look it up.

supersheep

That was the Countess Bridge incident I mentioned just above.

The Lopper

Sorry i didn't get back sooner about the Dromkeen Ambush

I decided to take the lazy man option and scan an account in a Kilteely-Dromkeen History Book (1983 methinks), which was copied from a piece in An Cosantóir in 1943 (or so it says) Its long, and not exactly written in the most exciting prose, but it is the most comprehensive account i have

Anyways here are the pages

Dromkeen Ambush pgs 1 & 2

Pgs 3 & 4

Pgs 4 & 5

Enjoy

The Lopper

Also, if you have paid attention you will have read how 2 of the party managed to escape unharmed. As far as i know these were called Cox and Samson, though i'll have to check up on this. They made their escape through fields, and possibly through one of ours, for some years later we found this:



It appears to be some sort of RIC badge (with the crown emblem on the top) It is possible that the Driver had this on his coat or in a pocket of the coat or something, and threw the coat off as he was making his escape.

We were thinking of sending it of the the Garda Museum or something to see if they could tell us what it is exatcly, who it was from etc, but we haven't done anything yet.

Fenian

"On the 28th of September 1920, in one of the most daring raids of the Tan War, eighteen members of the IRA under the leadership of Liam Lynch secured entry into the Mallow Military Barracks (North Cork), rushed the guards and in the raid secured two Hotchkiss light machine guns, twenty seven rifles, some small arms and 4,000 rounds of .303 ammunition. The whole operation was brilliantly executed and the raiding party got back to their base without casualties."

I have a much longer account of the raid but I couldn't be arsed typing out 3 pages worth.

history_buff

Hi all, I'm new to the board here... this is my first post!

I've actually applied for permission to start a PhD on the War of Independence/Civil War period in Limerick, and I was wondering if anyone here could help me with local sources (i.e. locating diaries, IRA unit roll books etc).

Any takers? I'm aware of all the sources I can use in Dublin and Britain. As a preliminary step, I'm keen to get hold of details of the brigade/battalion/company structure in Limerick during the WoI. I've looked in "Limerick's Fighting Story", and Mossie Harnett's book of memoirs, but there's nothing specific.

Fenian

Try the local Sinn Fein Cumanns in Limerick, they will be more than happy to help you out.

history_buff

Fenian wrote:

Try the local Sinn Fein Cumanns in Limerick, they will be more than happy to help you out.

Really, do they keep track of such things? That might be a good avenue.

The Lopper

Also check out the Granary City Library in Limerick, they have an almighty amount of stuff in there.

deisedevil

ancienthistory wrote:

Hi all. Anyone have a particular interest in the Southern incidents during our war of independence?

Yes i have great interest. Anyone wanting to read something about it should def read Tom barry's "Guerrila days in Ireland" one of the best books i have read. Also Dan breens book is excellent "My fight for Irish freedom". Does anyone know of any other books worth reading?

cal29

deisedevil wrote:

Yes i have great interest. Anyone wanting to read something about it should def read Tom barry's "Guerrila days in Ireland" one of the best books i have read. Also Dan breens book is excellent "My fight for Irish freedom". Does anyone know of any other books worth reading?

Not just related to Munster but the WoI although O'Malley was second in command on the raid mentioned earlier in this thread with General Liam Lynch try Ernie O'Malley On another mans wound and civil war his book The singing flame

His other book raids and rallies is good as well

cassieoc

Fenian wrote: »

"On the 28th of September 1920, in one of the most daring raids of the Tan War, eighteen members of the IRA under the leadership of Liam Lynch secured entry into the Mallow Military Barracks (North Cork), rushed the guards and in the raid secured two Hotchkiss light machine guns, twenty seven rifles, some small arms and 4,000 rounds of .303 ammunition. The whole operation was brilliantly executed and the raiding party got back to their base without casualties."

I have a much longer account of the raid but I couldn't be arsed typing out 3 pages worth.

Hi I am doing a thesis on "Limerick and the civil war and I need as much help as I can get as I am finding it difficult to get info . I would be grateful if you could get me this info.

cassieoc

Hi just noting the date of your message , I am hoping that you may have the infornation I am now looking for on "Limerick and the civil war " I would be gtateful if you could tell me where to go to get the information I need .
Many thanks

Shutuplaura

Deleted, stupid post...sorry!

cassieoc

Hi I thought you were replying to my request for info on Limerick and the civil war !!

McArmalite

I believe there was something called the Republic of Munster declared, it was a line that the 'baddie' IRA ( IRA 1922 - ) drew up to warn the 'Free' State army not to cross or else sort of thing. The 'Free' State then invaded by sea, possibly landing in Cobh among other places. I may have the details at home and I'll post them if I can find them. From what I read, although making a tough stance in Dublin when attacked by britian's puppet army with british supplied artillery to appease the demands of Churchill, the IRA didn't really seem to have the heart to really fight it out with them, exhaustion and apathy had set in it seems.

(Incidently also, Leitrim was the last IRA battalion to lay down arms, it was as late as 1928 before they called off their conflict.)

ejmaztec

cassieoc wrote: »

Hi I thought you were replying to my request for info on Limerick and the civil war !!

Fenian hasn't been logged-on since 10am yesterday, so I suppose you'll have to be patient.

McArmalite

deisedevil wrote: »

Yes i have great interest. Anyone wanting to read something about it should def read Tom barry's "Guerrila days in Ireland" one of the best books i have read. Also Dan breens book is excellent "My fight for Irish freedom". Does anyone know of any other books worth reading?

At the moment I am reading Dan Breen and the IRA - EXCELLENT book, surprised it hasn't caused a few more ripples. I read Dan's book but quite a long time ago. The first time I read it was given to me as a present from my grandfather when I was around 13 or so ( that's going back !!! ). Some people have said that he embellished his story, well, tell me a soldier who doesn't engage in poetic licence to some extent, even boxers etc do so, I suppose it's our male, macho vainity !!!

My Fight for Irish Freedom was actually ghost written for Dan, by a woman, I'll post her name again. Dan was idolised in Tipperary, topped the pole for FF at almost every election, so what I'm saying, it shouldn't come as a surprise if the ghost writer was a huge fan of Dan's and slightly embellished his story. Don't get me wrong, by no means am I saying it was a complete book of daring-do fiction like SAS books etc, took part in many daring operations, he was shot many times, his and another IRA man's escape from a safe house in Drumcondra taking several bullets but also killing a few of the DMP would be up there with Knocklong as among his most daring exploits. He died with several bullets in his body still in 1969.

Another interesting fact that comes out in the book, he was a bit of a 'lad' , drinking, gambling etc and while on the run is beleived to have enjoyed the company of 'loose' ladies in the saucy Monto district of Dublin at the time, hiding in the pub of a fellow Tipperary man whose pub was known to be frequnted by 'ladies of the night'. He even ran a speakeasy in America for a while !!!!

All in all, he seems to have been a likeable sort, but what a fighter.

Morlar

McArmalite wrote: »

My fight for Irish freedom

Have to say that was one of the best books of that period from the people directly involved. It would be hard to find another one that puts you right in the thick of it like that one does (imo).
(*goes off to re-read it*)

Shutuplaura

I also really enjoyed the book on Breen. His stance on american involvement in Vietnam was surprising (he was a member of the Irish anti Vietnam war alliance). He has a bit of a reputation as a gangster locally (originally from south Tipp) and it comes across in it strongly.

I'd recommend Ernie O'Malleys books; fantastic. I'd also read Liam Deasys books, not in the same league as O'Malley or Tom Barrys (I havent read his to be honest) but worth a look. The name escapes me at the moment. There is loads of info floating around about the IRA in Cork. Meda Ryan is considered an authority on it. Avoid Peter Hart's work. At first glance it looks impressive but its been shown to be full of inaccuracies and possible lies, especially in relation to Kilmichael and the Dunmanway killings. A pity really that his credability is shot becasue I don't know of any other in dept study of the effect of the war on a region of Ireland.

McArmalite

Shutuplaura wrote: »

He has a bit of a reputation as a gangster locally (originally from south Tipp) and it comes across in it strongly.

How did you come to that conclusion ?? I mean when he returned from America ( Dan Breen and the IRA book), he was carried shoulder high and cheered on by huge crowds ?? And he also topped the pole in almost every election for decades for FF. His stance on Vietnam shouldn't come as a surprise, in fact if he took anything other than a anti-imperialist one it would be a surprise. He would have had the insintinctive symapathy for 'the little country' against the big bully that most Irish people still have, thank God.

He was asked to sign a letter of protest regarding Vietnam by the Donegal Socailist Peader O'Donnell. He began to sign it and Peader O'Donnell asked him was he not going to read it first, to which Dan replied " Ah, sure I'd sign any damn thing you'd sign". As I said before, he seemed to be a good sort.

Shutuplaura

Just heard it anecdotally. For instance, a mate from thr Glen of Aherlow told me that in the locality he had a reputation for being a bit of a trouble maker.

Also, he and a few of his mates used stay at my granny's farm when she was a kid. She remembers how he and some of the others had big gold watches.

Just anecdotal and I'm not saying he was an out and out gangster, just that he has a reputation for loving a fight for its own sake as much as anything and wasn't shy about taking advatage of his position in the republican movement to get ahead in life. The book backs up some of this, which I found interesting. It also does show him to be more than the crazy mindless gunman he's sometimes seen as which is even better.

Edit: Also, being on the take in Ireland has never been a bar to popularity or elected office. Sorry, missed the first part of your post.