War of independence, Munster region

ancienthistory

Hi all. Anyone have a particular interest in the Southern incidents during our war of independence?

tim3115

I have an interest but do not know of many. Have you any stories yourself?

ancienthistory

Here's a good one to kick off a discussion www.knocklong-rescue.com

whippet

I just came across this, my interest is more to do with the civil war time,

I have a growing interest in the incident that took place with a trap mine at ballyseedy near tralee, I have recently stopped at the monument and have heard some stories but all really hear say.

has anyone got any links to decent resources or where I could find out more

The Lopper

There was an ambush very near me, Dromkeen Ambush, i had a huge piece on it copied from Newspapers and various accounts, i'll have to find it agian.

ancienthistory

whippet wrote:

I just came across this, my interest is more to do with the civil war time,

I have a growing interest in the incident that took place with a trap mine at ballyseedy near tralee, I have recently stopped at the monument and have heard some stories but all really hear say.

has anyone got any links to decent resources or where I could find out more

Know the one you mean but not to hot on Kerry civil war. It seems it was revenge for a previous ambush and yes it did happen. Sorry can't be more help.

Dromkeen was a joint operation between Tipperary and Barry's column. Yes was big!

Cork Boy

The anti treaty side ambushed the free staters in Knocknagoshel by creating an arms dums which was booby trapped.
They then sent false info to the free state army in Castleisland who checked it out and were blown up.
Two weeks later, the castleisland barracks were holding bout eight anti treaty fighters and got tehm up in the middle of the night to clear a road block.
They then tied the anti treaty men to the roadblock which was full of mines and blew them up.
One man was blown into the river where he made his escape. About a decade ago, he recorded an interview about it for RTE on condition it wouldn't be shown before his death. The interview and reconstructions were aired about 6 years ago. The documentary was called "Ballyseedy".
No monument lies where the free state army were ambushed.

Ps, I am not trying to take any sides. Atrocities were inflicted by both sides, civil wars are never exactly valiant or glorious.

supersheep

The same thing happened at Countess Bridge in Killarney, almost at the same time on March 7th 1923. Five prisoners were taken out to clear a barricade. Their guards cocked their rifles so they hopped over the fence for cover. Instead, there was a mine there. Once again, one man escaped. After this, the Free Staters took precautions, and shot their prisoners in the legs before they blew them up.
For a general history of the Civil War, try Eoin Neeson's "The Civil War 1922-23", it's pretty damn good. Thanks to it I got a perfect mark on my Irish history essay in the Leaving, so obviously I love it...

klong

ancienthistory wrote:

Dromkeen was a joint operation between Tipperary and Barry's column. Yes was big!

I haven't heard of this one- any details?

Mick86

whippet wrote:

I just came across this, my interest is more to do with the civil war time,

I have a growing interest in the incident that took place with a trap mine at ballyseedy near tralee, I have recently stopped at the monument and have heard some stories but all really hear say.

has anyone got any links to decent resources or where I could find out more

There was another similar incident the same day. I'll have to look it up.

supersheep

That was the Countess Bridge incident I mentioned just above.

The Lopper

Sorry i didn't get back sooner about the Dromkeen Ambush

I decided to take the lazy man option and scan an account in a Kilteely-Dromkeen History Book (1983 methinks), which was copied from a piece in An Cosantóir in 1943 (or so it says) Its long, and not exactly written in the most exciting prose, but it is the most comprehensive account i have

Anyways here are the pages

Dromkeen Ambush pgs 1 & 2

Pgs 3 & 4

Pgs 4 & 5

Enjoy

The Lopper

Also, if you have paid attention you will have read how 2 of the party managed to escape unharmed. As far as i know these were called Cox and Samson, though i'll have to check up on this. They made their escape through fields, and possibly through one of ours, for some years later we found this:



It appears to be some sort of RIC badge (with the crown emblem on the top) It is possible that the Driver had this on his coat or in a pocket of the coat or something, and threw the coat off as he was making his escape.

We were thinking of sending it of the the Garda Museum or something to see if they could tell us what it is exatcly, who it was from etc, but we haven't done anything yet.

Fenian

"On the 28th of September 1920, in one of the most daring raids of the Tan War, eighteen members of the IRA under the leadership of Liam Lynch secured entry into the Mallow Military Barracks (North Cork), rushed the guards and in the raid secured two Hotchkiss light machine guns, twenty seven rifles, some small arms and 4,000 rounds of .303 ammunition. The whole operation was brilliantly executed and the raiding party got back to their base without casualties."

I have a much longer account of the raid but I couldn't be arsed typing out 3 pages worth.

history_buff

Hi all, I'm new to the board here... this is my first post!

I've actually applied for permission to start a PhD on the War of Independence/Civil War period in Limerick, and I was wondering if anyone here could help me with local sources (i.e. locating diaries, IRA unit roll books etc).

Any takers? I'm aware of all the sources I can use in Dublin and Britain. As a preliminary step, I'm keen to get hold of details of the brigade/battalion/company structure in Limerick during the WoI. I've looked in "Limerick's Fighting Story", and Mossie Harnett's book of memoirs, but there's nothing specific.

Fenian

Try the local Sinn Fein Cumanns in Limerick, they will be more than happy to help you out.

history_buff

Fenian wrote:

Try the local Sinn Fein Cumanns in Limerick, they will be more than happy to help you out.

Really, do they keep track of such things? That might be a good avenue.

The Lopper

Also check out the Granary City Library in Limerick, they have an almighty amount of stuff in there.

deisedevil

ancienthistory wrote:

Hi all. Anyone have a particular interest in the Southern incidents during our war of independence?

Yes i have great interest. Anyone wanting to read something about it should def read Tom barry's "Guerrila days in Ireland" one of the best books i have read. Also Dan breens book is excellent "My fight for Irish freedom". Does anyone know of any other books worth reading?

cal29

deisedevil wrote:

Yes i have great interest. Anyone wanting to read something about it should def read Tom barry's "Guerrila days in Ireland" one of the best books i have read. Also Dan breens book is excellent "My fight for Irish freedom". Does anyone know of any other books worth reading?

Not just related to Munster but the WoI although O'Malley was second in command on the raid mentioned earlier in this thread with General Liam Lynch try Ernie O'Malley On another mans wound and civil war his book The singing flame

His other book raids and rallies is good as well

cassieoc

Fenian wrote: »

"On the 28th of September 1920, in one of the most daring raids of the Tan War, eighteen members of the IRA under the leadership of Liam Lynch secured entry into the Mallow Military Barracks (North Cork), rushed the guards and in the raid secured two Hotchkiss light machine guns, twenty seven rifles, some small arms and 4,000 rounds of .303 ammunition. The whole operation was brilliantly executed and the raiding party got back to their base without casualties."

I have a much longer account of the raid but I couldn't be arsed typing out 3 pages worth.

Hi I am doing a thesis on "Limerick and the civil war and I need as much help as I can get as I am finding it difficult to get info . I would be grateful if you could get me this info.

cassieoc

Hi just noting the date of your message , I am hoping that you may have the infornation I am now looking for on "Limerick and the civil war " I would be gtateful if you could tell me where to go to get the information I need .
Many thanks

Shutuplaura

Deleted, stupid post...sorry!

cassieoc

Hi I thought you were replying to my request for info on Limerick and the civil war !!

McArmalite

I believe there was something called the Republic of Munster declared, it was a line that the 'baddie' IRA ( IRA 1922 - ) drew up to warn the 'Free' State army not to cross or else sort of thing. The 'Free' State then invaded by sea, possibly landing in Cobh among other places. I may have the details at home and I'll post them if I can find them. From what I read, although making a tough stance in Dublin when attacked by britian's puppet army with british supplied artillery to appease the demands of Churchill, the IRA didn't really seem to have the heart to really fight it out with them, exhaustion and apathy had set in it seems.

(Incidently also, Leitrim was the last IRA battalion to lay down arms, it was as late as 1928 before they called off their conflict.)

ejmaztec

cassieoc wrote: »

Hi I thought you were replying to my request for info on Limerick and the civil war !!

Fenian hasn't been logged-on since 10am yesterday, so I suppose you'll have to be patient.

McArmalite

deisedevil wrote: »

Yes i have great interest. Anyone wanting to read something about it should def read Tom barry's "Guerrila days in Ireland" one of the best books i have read. Also Dan breens book is excellent "My fight for Irish freedom". Does anyone know of any other books worth reading?

At the moment I am reading Dan Breen and the IRA - EXCELLENT book, surprised it hasn't caused a few more ripples. I read Dan's book but quite a long time ago. The first time I read it was given to me as a present from my grandfather when I was around 13 or so ( that's going back !!! ). Some people have said that he embellished his story, well, tell me a soldier who doesn't engage in poetic licence to some extent, even boxers etc do so, I suppose it's our male, macho vainity !!!

My Fight for Irish Freedom was actually ghost written for Dan, by a woman, I'll post her name again. Dan was idolised in Tipperary, topped the pole for FF at almost every election, so what I'm saying, it shouldn't come as a surprise if the ghost writer was a huge fan of Dan's and slightly embellished his story. Don't get me wrong, by no means am I saying it was a complete book of daring-do fiction like SAS books etc, took part in many daring operations, he was shot many times, his and another IRA man's escape from a safe house in Drumcondra taking several bullets but also killing a few of the DMP would be up there with Knocklong as among his most daring exploits. He died with several bullets in his body still in 1969.

Another interesting fact that comes out in the book, he was a bit of a 'lad' , drinking, gambling etc and while on the run is beleived to have enjoyed the company of 'loose' ladies in the saucy Monto district of Dublin at the time, hiding in the pub of a fellow Tipperary man whose pub was known to be frequnted by 'ladies of the night'. He even ran a speakeasy in America for a while !!!!

All in all, he seems to have been a likeable sort, but what a fighter.

Morlar

McArmalite wrote: »

My fight for Irish freedom

Have to say that was one of the best books of that period from the people directly involved. It would be hard to find another one that puts you right in the thick of it like that one does (imo).
(*goes off to re-read it*)

Shutuplaura

I also really enjoyed the book on Breen. His stance on american involvement in Vietnam was surprising (he was a member of the Irish anti Vietnam war alliance). He has a bit of a reputation as a gangster locally (originally from south Tipp) and it comes across in it strongly.

I'd recommend Ernie O'Malleys books; fantastic. I'd also read Liam Deasys books, not in the same league as O'Malley or Tom Barrys (I havent read his to be honest) but worth a look. The name escapes me at the moment. There is loads of info floating around about the IRA in Cork. Meda Ryan is considered an authority on it. Avoid Peter Hart's work. At first glance it looks impressive but its been shown to be full of inaccuracies and possible lies, especially in relation to Kilmichael and the Dunmanway killings. A pity really that his credability is shot becasue I don't know of any other in dept study of the effect of the war on a region of Ireland.

McArmalite

Shutuplaura wrote: »

He has a bit of a reputation as a gangster locally (originally from south Tipp) and it comes across in it strongly.

How did you come to that conclusion ?? I mean when he returned from America ( Dan Breen and the IRA book), he was carried shoulder high and cheered on by huge crowds ?? And he also topped the pole in almost every election for decades for FF. His stance on Vietnam shouldn't come as a surprise, in fact if he took anything other than a anti-imperialist one it would be a surprise. He would have had the insintinctive symapathy for 'the little country' against the big bully that most Irish people still have, thank God.

He was asked to sign a letter of protest regarding Vietnam by the Donegal Socailist Peader O'Donnell. He began to sign it and Peader O'Donnell asked him was he not going to read it first, to which Dan replied " Ah, sure I'd sign any damn thing you'd sign". As I said before, he seemed to be a good sort.

Shutuplaura

Just heard it anecdotally. For instance, a mate from thr Glen of Aherlow told me that in the locality he had a reputation for being a bit of a trouble maker.

Also, he and a few of his mates used stay at my granny's farm when she was a kid. She remembers how he and some of the others had big gold watches.

Just anecdotal and I'm not saying he was an out and out gangster, just that he has a reputation for loving a fight for its own sake as much as anything and wasn't shy about taking advatage of his position in the republican movement to get ahead in life. The book backs up some of this, which I found interesting. It also does show him to be more than the crazy mindless gunman he's sometimes seen as which is even better.

Edit: Also, being on the take in Ireland has never been a bar to popularity or elected office. Sorry, missed the first part of your post.

McArmalite

Shutuplaura wrote: »

Just heard it anecdotally. For instance, a mate from thr Glen of Aherlow told me that in the locality he had a reputation for being a bit of a trouble maker.

Also, he and a few of his mates used stay at my granny's farm when she was a kid. She remembers how he and some of the others had big gold watches.

Just anecdotal and I'm not saying he was an out and out gangster, just that he has a reputation for loving a fight for its own sake as much as anything and wasn't shy about taking advatage of his position in the republican movement to get ahead in life. The book backs up some of this, which I found interesting. It also does show him to be more than the crazy mindless gunman he's sometimes seen as which is even better.

I'd say in his younger days he would have been a bit of a 'scrapper' outside the local pub etc. But 'scrapping' and "sorting it out man to man" would have been the Irish national sport in those days, people were not as PC as they are today back then .
As for the " big gold watches ", at times they were just existing from day to day, hour to hour. I think their's a quote in the book where talking about his and the other volunteers dishevled appearence at the time - When their's £10,000 reward on your head, you don't exactly worry about your appearence". I doubt if wearing a gold watch would have been high on their priorites, nor would they have thought it a good way to impress the ordinary people of Tipp who were sheltering them.

As for " taking advatage of his position in the republican movement ". Well when he was released by the 'Free' State authorities, he was penniless, still suffering badly from his wounds. IRA men who had fought against the 'Free State' were forbidden receiving state income, including 'old' IRA pensions. He was even reduced to writing a begging letter to the Republican movement in America asking could they send him the fare to go thier, even offering to work as a coalman on board the ship, even with his very poor health due to his numerous woundings. As for him or any other of the brave men who fought so well for the country, it's nothing short of begrudery moaning about " taking advatage of his position in the republican movement ". Bit like people whinging when a GAA player makes some money for advertising on TV or writing for a newspaper or something.

eroo

From what I read, although making a tough stance in Dublin when attacked by britian's puppet army with british supplied artillery to appease the demands of Churchill, the IRA didn't really seem to have the heart to really fight it out with them, exhaustion and apathy had set in it seems.

I think you will find the REAL reason the anti-Treatyites were beaten so easily is that they did not have support from the majority of the people.Obviously there were strongholds in parts of Cork and Kerry,but the vast majority did not support the IRA.Instead they wanted law and order AND peace restored..that is when Oglaigh Na hEireann/Free State Army landed(seaborne) in parts of Cork and in Fenit,Co.Kerry.Plus they were a highly inefficient force whose leaders were in jail,dead or on the run..

eroo

cassieoc wrote: »

Hi I thought you were replying to my request for info on Limerick and the civil war !!

Go into the Granery library in town.EVERYTHING you need is there..then you could check district libraries..

FTA69

McArmalite wrote: »

Some people have said that he embellished his story, well, tell me a soldier who doesn't engage in poetic licence to some extent, even boxers etc do so, I suppose it's our male, macho vainity !!!

To say the least.

Another interesting fact that comes out in the book, he was a bit of a 'lad' , drinking, gambling etc and while on the run is beleived to have enjoyed the company of 'loose' ladies in the saucy Monto district of Dublin at the time, hiding in the pub of a fellow Tipperary man whose pub was known to be frequnted by 'ladies of the night'. He even ran a speakeasy in America for a while !!!!

My grandmother and her sister were very close to him, truth be told he was a Ned Kelly type figure, generally wild. If it wasn't for Republicanism he probably would have been a bandit. He also worked as a strikebreaker in America battering union members off picket lines, and he didn't treat his wife the best to put it lightly.

All in all, he seems to have been a likeable sort, but what a fighter.

I wouldn't call him likable, but he was a very effective guerilla.

FTA69

eroo wrote: »

that is when Oglaigh Na hEireann/Free State Army landed

Óglaigh na hÉireann is the IRA, attributing that title to the Free Staters is an insult. The vast majority of Óglaigh na hÉireann and Cumann na mBan rejected the Treaty, Collins and his IRB cohorts then resigned from Óglaigh na hÉireann to set up the Free State Army.

Plus they were a highly inefficient force

The IRA contained most of those in the Flying Columns and those who did the actual fighting during the war, the Free Staters on the other hand mass-recruited youngfellas and armed them with British weapons.

whose leaders were in jail,dead or on the run..

Probably because they were being jailed, killed and pursued by Irish traitors armed with British guns.

Shutuplaura

McArmalite wrote: »

I'd say in his younger days he would have been a bit of a 'scrapper' outside the local pub etc. But 'scrapping' and "sorting it out man to man" would have been the Irish national sport in those days, people were not as PC as they are today back then .
As for the " big gold watches ", at times they were just existing from day to day, hour to hour. I think their's a quote in the book where talking about his and the other volunteers dishevled appearence at the time - When their's £10,000 reward on your head, you don't exactly worry about your appearence". I doubt if wearing a gold watch would have been high on their priorites, nor would they have thought it a good way to impress the ordinary people of Tipp who were sheltering them.

As for " taking advatage of his position in the republican movement ". Well when he was released by the 'Free' State authorities, he was penniless, still suffering badly from his wounds. IRA men who had fought against the 'Free State' were forbidden receiving state income, including 'old' IRA pensions. He was even reduced to writing a begging letter to the Republican movement in America asking could they send him the fare to go thier, even offering to work as a coalman on board the ship, even with his very poor health due to his numerous woundings. As for him or any other of the brave men who fought so well for the country, it's nothing short of begrudery moaning about " taking advatage of his position in the republican movement ". Bit like people whinging when a GAA player makes some money for advertising on TV or writing for a newspaper or something.

Well you may not like it buts thats the reputation he has in parts of his old stomping ground. As you also pointed out he ran a speakeasy in the States which surely raises questions of involvement in gangsters. In the book you and I both praise highly it mentions that he himself sometimes felt that he was owed a living by the state for his involvement in the War. It gives this as the reason he remained a TD into the 1960's. It also mentions that he was determined never to return to the poverty stricken life on a farm he led in Tipperary as a kid.

As you say, people were far less PC in those days, and I'm not judging the bloke, I think he was a remarkable character, more than his reputation in Ireland today, which is quite mixed, deserves. I don't put him on a pedestal though and I try to see all historical figures as the humans they were, warts and all.

One more thing that might interest you. Francis Stewart who was involved in the Anti - Treaty side mention how it was fashionable for IRA members to put 'ski after the end of the sentence to make it sound fake russian - the phrase 'sure enoughski' drove him mad. Ernie O'Malley noted that in Cork it was all the rage for members of flying columns to pin regimental badges collected from units they fought against and wear them on their lapels . You can easily see this if you go to the Museum in Kildare St and look a Liam Lynch's rifle - As leader he wasn't immune and nailed a cap badge from the Lancers - the skull and crossbones one - to the side of his rifle. You can also see how IRA member loved dramatic poses in photographs with guns prominently on display. When you think about it, as a guerrilla army they would have been better not to have any photos taken of themselves at all. They were all young fellas highly concerned about their their status in society, interested in creating an air of bravado about themselves and their actions and like most people everywhere in the world were interested in their appearance more than you may realise. Personally I think its the most natural thing in the world for a person to do.

McArmalite

FTA69 wrote: »

My grandmother and her sister were very close to him, truth be told he was a Ned Kelly type figure, generally wild. If it wasn't for Republicanism he probably would have been a bandit. He also worked as a strikebreaker in America battering union members off picket lines, and he didn't treat his wife the best to put it lightly.
I wouldn't call him likable, but he was a very effective guerilla.

A Ned Kelly type of figure is a good descripition ( BTW, I believe Ned Kelly was voted the Greatest Australian of all time, he's a Mega hero down under ). " He also worked as a strikebreaker in America battering union members off picket lines, and he didn't treat his wife the best to put it lightly. " Haven't come across that in the book, and the book from what I can gather tries to uncover him warts and all, is there any solid reference to this ?? I agree he didn't treat his wife too well, he seems to have been a man's man, drinking, gambling, GAA matches etc. In the book it's mentioned by some of his old friends that "drink was the downfall of him" - wouldn't be the first decent Irishman for that to happen to ??

Shutuplaura wrote: »

Well you may not like it buts thats the reputation he has in parts of his old stomping ground. As you also pointed out he ran a speakeasy in the States which surely raises questions of involvement in gangsters. In the book you and I both praise highly it mentions that he himself sometimes felt that he was owed a living by the state for his involvement in the War. It gives this as the reason he remained a TD into the 1960's. It also mentions that he was determined never to return to the poverty stricken life on a farm he led in Tipperary as a kid.

As you say, people were far less PC in those days, and I'm not judging the bloke, I think he was a remarkable character, more than his reputation in Ireland today, which is quite mixed, deserves. I don't put him on a pedestal though and I try to see all historical figures as the humans they were, warts and all.

One more thing that might interest you. Francis Stewart who was involved in the Anti - Treaty side mention how it was fashionable for IRA members to put 'ski after the end of the sentence to make it sound fake russian - the phrase 'sure enoughski' drove him mad. Ernie O'Malley noted that in Cork it was all the rage for members of flying columns to pin regimental badges collected from units they fought against and wear them on their lapels . You can easily see this if you go to the Museum in Kildare St and look a Liam Lynch's rifle - As leader he wasn't immune and nailed a cap badge from the Lancers - the skull and crossbones one - to the side of his rifle. You can also see how IRA member loved dramatic poses in photographs with guns prominently on display. When you think about it, as a guerrilla army they would have been better not to have any photos taken of themselves at all. They were all young fellas highly concerned about their their status in society, interested in creating an air of bravado about themselves and their actions and like most people everywhere in the world were interested in their appearance more than you may realise. Personally I think its the most natural thing in the world for a person to do.

Very interesting that about the regimental badges and the IRA. Sort of collecting trophies of war. Allied soldiers did the same, collecting Nazi daggers etc. As for the gold watches - very, very, highly improbable.

" Well you may not like it buts thats the reputation he has in parts of his old stomping ground. " Well, that's the exaxt opposite of my experience when I have asked people from Tipp about him, he's still regarded in high esteem down there, you regularily see pubs with his old wanted poster framed up. I'm not out to try and discredit you, but my experience of asking about Dan Breen and Tipperary people couldn't have been different.

" In the book you and I both praise highly it mentions that he himself sometimes felt that he was owed a living by the state for his involvement in the War. ". Well, as I said before, " As for him or any other of the brave men who fought so well for the country, it's nothing short of begrudery moaning about " taking advatage of his position in the republican movement ". Bit like people whinging when a GAA player makes some money for advertising on TV or writing for a newspaper or something. "It's the very least they deserved. And considering the numerous shootings and woundings he received, I honestly think it very niggardly and small minded begrudgery someone like him. In other countries they would beleive in treating a resistance fighter with a bit of respect, in great little Ireland they beleive in pilloring them. It's all part of guilt complex regarding the british and the unionists that the ruling class and media of this little neo colony still insist on hanging on to.

FTA69

" He also worked as a strikebreaker in America battering union members off picket lines, and he didn't treat his wife the best to put it lightly. " Haven't come across that in the book, and the book from what I can gather tries to uncover him warts and all, is there any solid reference to this ??

I read that book as well, it's fairly good. To be honest I'm only going on what my grandmother told me, her sister was one of his best friends, they still have furniture belonging to him. He was fairly well off before he died but he gave away a lot of his possesions in old age. He also handed over a number of revolvers for the IRA on his deathbed.

I agree he didn't treat his wife too well, he seems to have been a man's man, drinking, gambling, GAA matches etc. In the book it's mentioned by some of his old friends that "drink was the downfall of him" - wouldn't be the first decent Irishman for that to happen to ??

Domestic abuse is a big issue for me, there is no excusing it at all.

when I have asked people from Tipp about him, he's still regarded in high esteem down there,

He is and he isn't like. Members of the RM would be more likely to be wary of the cult surrounding him, having heard the warts-and-all story from old veterans (lots of them in Tipperary). All and all he did some great things and some bad things, but he certainly was a character.

His autobiography also uses the word "I" more than any other published book.

McArmalite

FTA69 wrote: »

I read that book as well, it's fairly good. To be honest I'm only going on what my grandmother told me, her sister was one of his best friends, they still have furniture belonging to him. He was fairly well off before he died but he gave away a lot of his possesions in old age. He also handed over a number of revolvers for the IRA on his deathbed.

Domestic abuse is a big issue for me, there is no excusing it at all.

He is and he isn't like. Members of the RM would be more likely to be wary of the cult surrounding him, having heard the warts-and-all story from old veterans (lots of them in Tipperary). All and all he did some great things and some bad things, but he certainly was a character.

His autobiography also uses the word "I" more than any other published book.

Where does it say he was invovled in domestic abuse. If it's a " me grandmother " or " an old veteran told me" or "a fella who lived up the road", well that's bollox to be posting on the web as 'fact'. As I said previous - " In other countries they would beleive in treating a resistance fighter with a bit of respect, in great little Ireland they beleive in pilloring them. It's all part of guilt complex regarding the british and the unionists that the ruling class and media of this little neo colony still insist on hanging on to".

" His autobiography also uses the word "I" more than any other published book. " That's a sarcastic statement from one of his jealous detractor's in the book, the autobiograhy was ghost written for him, I don't think he could hardly be blamed for that. As I said, tell me a soldier or boxer whose story isn't embellished.

eroo

FTA69 wrote: »

eroo wrote: »

Óglaigh na hÉireann is the IRA, attributing that title to the Free Staters is an insult. The vast majority of Óglaigh na hÉireann and Cumann na mBan rejected the Treaty, Collins and his IRB cohorts then resigned from Óglaigh na hÉireann to set up the Free State Army.Believe what you want,you can think they are Oglaigh na hEireann if it makes you feel better.Fact is,THE Oglaigh na hEireann(Free State Army/now Irish Defence Forces)were accepted by the the overwhelming majority of Irish people.You see,Collins/IRB were realists who knew the British could crush the IRA in a couple of days fighting.I'm not going into the whole 'stepping stone' thing,as I won't point out the possibilities politically and economically for Ireland had the IRA not murdered Collins:rolleyes:
To rephrase DeValera's famous quote;the minority had no right to do wrong



The IRA contained most of those in the Flying Columns and those who did the actual fighting during the war, the Free Staters on the other hand mass-recruited youngfellas and armed them with British weapons.And what weapons were the IRA fighting with?German,British etc!



Probably because they were being jailed, killed and pursued by Irish traitors armed with British guns.Or because they were rejecting the will of the Irish people

..

kreuzberger

Dorothy McArdles Tragedies of kerry is probably the most authoritative account of atrocities comitted by the free state troops in the kerry region . Tom Barrys guerilla days in Ireland is also a must read . It is a clinical warts and all account of the series of engagements in that area , often related dispassionately , explaining of the realities and hardship of that time . It goes into the minutest details , including pathetically scarce amounts of arms and ammunition and men the campaign began with and the clerical hostility encountered . It was later incorporated by the german armys paratroop divisions as an essential part of their officers training course .

Im afraid Dan Breens book is really more of a boys own adventure , enjoyable read but embellished heavily for effect and not anywhere near in the same class as Barrys or those by Ernie OMalley .

Shutuplaura

Why is it unlikely they had gold watches? Have you ever seen any phottographs of the guy. He liked to dress well, even on the run. He spent plenty of time in Dublin during the War and Collins paid his close operatives very well so I'm surprised you find it surprising.

As for his reputation I Tipp in general, some of it may be Irish begrudgerism and there is no doubt about it.That said, there is no smoke without fire in my experience. If you know people from Tipp who think the sun moon and stars rose from his arse then I believe you, however there is also a folk memory of him around the countryside that is aomewhat different. Rightly or wrongly in the end untimately impossible to say. I guess all that really should matter was that he did his job well during the war and palyed a part in helping to normalise politics after the Civil War by being the first Anti Treaty TD to take his seat.

kreuzberger, I agree about Breens own book. We are talking about an autobiography of him that was published recently. I can't remember the name off hand, McArm will have it if you are interested.

FTA69

McArmalite wrote: »

Where does it say he was invovled in domestic abuse. If it's a " me grandmother " or " an old veteran told me" or "a fella who lived up the road", well that's bollox to be posting on the web as 'fact'

.

My grandmother and her sister met Breen and his wife on an almost daily basis, my grandaunt was one of his best friends, to be honest I have no reason to doubt what they tell me at all. My comment about veterans was relating to the fact that he wasn't as clean cut as you seem to wish he was. Many people involved in the Republican Movement who did amazing things are also complete arseholes on a personal level. That's just the way it is.

As I said previous - " In other countries they would beleive in treating a resistance fighter with a bit of respect, in great little Ireland they beleive in pilloring them. It's all part of guilt complex regarding the british and the unionists that the ruling class and media of this little neo colony still insist on hanging on to".

In fairness you know well I don't fit into that category.

As I said, tell me a soldier or boxer whose story isn't embellished.

Ernie O'Malley.

FTA69

Believe what you want,you can think they are Oglaigh na hEireann if it makes you feel better.Fact is,THE Oglaigh na hEireann(Free State Army/now Irish Defence Forces)were accepted by the the overwhelming majority of Irish people

First and foremost the majority of Óglaigh na hÉireann rejected the Treaty. Collins and a few of his allies on the Executive then left the IRA to form the FSA. Is that such a hard concept to grasp? Óglaigh na hÉireann, meaning Irish Volunteers, is an organisation which preceeds the Free State itself and was always the official title of the Irish Republican Army.

Secondly the Treaty vote was not held in a democratic environment, one fifth of the country was excluded from this referendum and it was also held in the context of a threat from Britain to accept its demands. The last time the Irish people voted as a unit was for an Irish Republic.

You see,Collins/IRB were realists who knew the British could crush the IRA in a couple of days fighting

They would have needed to use 100,000 troops as well as summarily executing around 2,000 people and incarcerating many more. Considering it was public outcry in Britain itself which led to them easing off can you see them going through the above?

as I won't point out the possibilities politically and economically for Ireland had the IRA not murdered Collins

Good riddance, himself and his cabal murdered plenty themselves.

what weapons were the IRA fighting with?German,British etc!

There is a far cry between using weapons stolen from the Brits and weapons given willingly by the Brits, you are really clutching at straws. Why do you think the Brits armed the Free Staters? Because of a love for Irish "democracy"? Or because they were having Irishmen reinforce their agenda in this country?

McArmalite

FTA69 wrote: »

My grandmother and her sister met Breen and his wife on an almost daily basis, my grandaunt was one of his best friends, to be honest I have no reason to doubt what they tell me at all. My comment about veterans was relating to the fact that he wasn't as clean cut as you seem to wish he was. Many people involved in the Republican Movement who did amazing things are also complete arseholes on a personal level. That's just the way it is.

Sorry for the abrasiveness and seeming to make it personal, ( I've got to admit, diplomacy is not my strong point), but on this thread alone he's been accused, on hearsay, as "wearing gold watches" and been "invovled in domestic abuse". Sorry but, that's bollox, complete bollox. It's up there with the Eoghan Harris - Micheal Collins was gay theories. But is it any wonder a man gets fed up of the pilloring of anything nationalist. Sorry, but I've come to the conclusion long ago -so much for the 26 co.'s 'Indepenence' ( Jayus, that's another discussion entirely). Maybe Dan shot John F Kennedy and murdered Marilyn Munroe also as well as eating babies etc

FTA69 wrote: »

In fairness you know well I don't fit into that category.

Ernie O'Malley.

Agreed, your a decent fella, but still think it's rubbish attacking someone's character with hearsay and innuendo etc, etc. Yeah, Ernie O'Malley wrote an amazing, fair minded book.

dlofnep

Some good reading in this thread.

McArmalite

FTA69 wrote: »

Secondly the Treaty vote was not held in a democratic environment, .... and it was also held in the context of a threat from Britain to accept its demands.

Good post FTA69, I once heard, and I'm not sure if it is true but it does seem most likely, but in an International court of law, the UN, World Court, whatever, like a man been forced to sign a statement under threats and duress of the police, the Treaty had no international standing.

FTA69 wrote: »

Considering it was public outcry in Britain itself which led to them easing off can you see them going through the above?

Yes, British public opinion was very pro Irish freedom, especially because of the death of Terence McSweeney. ( BTW, I rememeber a Welsh woman proudly telling me, in London of all places, that her father organised a guard of honour as the coffin passed through their Welsh village. This was repeated thoughout nationalist towns and villages across Wales she said.)

And not to mention American opinion. America wasn't the mega world power it is today, but still had a big influence nevertheless. Particularily with britian and the so called 'special relationship' the brits were trying to create. The Dockers, Teamsters and Railway unions, Irish to the core, had passed resoulotions refusing to handle british goods, effectively crippling british trade with America. Irish America was the most powerful lobby in Washington. Could you imagine the reaction if the drunken war criminal Churchill had tried his threats ??

And also not forgetting sympathetic unions and socialists in France, Italy and across the continent ??

FTA69

Sorry for the abrasiveness and seeming to make it personal, ( I've got to admit, diplomacy is not my strong point), but on this thread alone he's been accused, on hearsay, as "wearing gold watches" and been "invovled in domestic abuse". Sorry but, that's bollox, complete bollox. It's up there with the Eoghan Harris - Micheal Collins was gay theories. But is it any wonder a man gets fed up of the pilloring of anything nationalist

Fair play, I wouldn't take my statement for granted at all if I was you, I'm only a pseudonym on the internet. For me though, I was told this by a close family member who knew Breen intimately, much better than you and I. It's not as if I read it off the back of a packet of cornflakes or anything. I believe my relatives on this issue, that's just me.

kreuzberger

sadly breen did get involved in some unsavoury business post conflict . That does not detract from the fact he got well stuck into the British during the war for independence but he did not possess the same strength of character or personal humility like Tom Barry or Ernie OMalley .

FTA69

kreuzberger wrote: »

sadly breen did get involved in some unsavoury business post conflict . That does not detract from the fact he got well stuck into the British during the war for independence but he did not possess the same strength of character or personal humility like Tom Barry or Ernie OMalley .

Spot on. Barry himself was a very inconspicuous and humble man, apparently he was very shook owing to his experiences during the war.